The 2023 usage stats are out: Revenant on the nerfing block

[Aruquae]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

Tap-tap

Rap… tap-tap

[quxier]

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

20 hours ago, quxier said:

I'm not sure, It's pretty efficient here:

Uhm no, that is quite far from pretty efficient. And also far from not breaking a sweat. Just as he even says in the video, he needs lots of stuff to even be able to kill to start with in order to get the buffs from the arcane. Not to mention he also makes use of primers at those low levels in order to help the MK-1 kill. 

But that's the same for Exodia contagion. I put mods and stuff and it doesn't do too much damage for SP Gokstak officer or Corrupted heavy gunner 160 level.

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

20 hours ago, quxier said:

Yeah, in big rooms. Otherwise it's just badly designed stuff.

It works well practically everywhere.

Then you are either good or play it slowly.

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

20 hours ago, quxier said:

Sometimes they nerf/change stuff because they don't like certain stuff. Styanax' nerfs were like that.

Not really the same thing since he was simply bugged and a bug got fixed. We've had very few actual nerfs that havent been the result of extensive use by the community. Thermal Sunder, Catchoom, Multi-Contagion spam, Vex Armor, Bramma, AoE overall, Wukong/Clones/Specters etc.

One of his feature were ability to cast other abilities while in the 4th. It was not bug but just excuse to nerf it. There are frames that can use abilities. It's just lottery at this point.

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

20 hours ago, quxier said:

I'm just normal user. I've not bothered with anything past normal starchart so I'm not crazy about huge damage but HOW it is used.

Then you cant really have an opinion regarding contagion since you simply dont know how powerful it actually is. It is practically an AoE gun with limited ammo that has a trigger requirement because it has no reload either. It is a weapon that can 1HK the heaviest SP Demolishers/Lysts, which is the opposite of useless.

I can have opinion on certain thing. I may not know how powerful some stuff are but I can criticize how they function. And "power" is not that important as you can se with that Braton video.

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

20 hours ago, quxier said:

es, that's the problem but I wasn't trying to fix that. What I'm saying that stupid double/bullet jump is not needed when you have already 1 attack per jump limitation (not even changed via Aerial ace mod).

What is stupid with 2x jump though? Tap-tap or tap, I mean, what is the real difference?

Huge. So you have bullet jump or double jump.

Bullet jump changes your position a lot. On base it's 11-15 meters.

Double jump takes your another jump(bullet jump) from you. And it may be simple tap-tap but it's not. It's "jump jump > aim-glide + attack". Imagine you would have to do such things to shoot guns. For example instead of auto reload or "press R to reload" you would have press few keys to reload. I mean... it's perfectly doable but I don't find doing such things (exodia or reload example) fun.

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Removing the RMB interaction would not be a good solution either, since that would prohibit you from slam attacking when you want and end up in turd territory like a few of the sword and board weapons that have projectile areal attacks.

Aim glide VS wall latch is another issue. I would prefer if we could turn off wall latch in options.

And you can always make:

- normal attack in air -> some projectile or other weird stuff

- heavy attack -> normal (heavy attack) or heavy slam (when facing down).

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Those weapons feel horrible with their single jump and quick melee trigger.

Which one you are referring to. Just to make sure I'm not mistaking any.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, quxier said:

But that's the same for Exodia contagion. I put mods and stuff and it doesn't do too much damage for SP Gokstak officer or Corrupted heavy gunner 160 level.

Then you dont have a Zaw or mod setup intended for contagion.

3 minutes ago, quxier said:

One of his feature were ability to cast other abilities while in the 4th. It was not bug but just excuse to nerf it. There are frames that can use abilities. It's just lottery at this point.

But it was a bug since his 4th was a full body animation, which restricts casting unless specifically stated by the skills that can actually be cast. Like Wisp 2 and Revs Reave etc. 

 

6 minutes ago, quxier said:

I can have opinion on certain thing. I may not know how powerful some stuff are but I can criticize how they function. And "power" is not that important as you can se with that Braton video.

You cant claim something is useless when you dont know how to use it in the first place. And if you think that power isnt important, how can you claim Contagion is useless?

9 minutes ago, quxier said:

Huge. So you have bullet jump or double jump.

Bullet jump changes your position a lot. On base it's 11-15 meters.

Double jump takes your another jump(bullet jump) from you. And it may be simple tap-tap but it's not. It's "jump jump > aim-glide + attack". Imagine you would have to do such things to shoot guns. For example instead of auto reload or "press R to reload" you would have press few keys to reload. I mean... it's perfectly doable but I don't find doing such things (exodia or reload example) fun.

WTF are you on about? Bullet jump is optional. Aim-glide is simply Aim. You dont need to glide, it is simply there so you have enough airtime if needed before landing in the spot you stood. Do you not aim with guns that also makes you move slower in the process? So the whole thing involved tap-tap plus aim and attack. The reason bullet jump is there is to allow you to access contagion through slide->bullet jump->aim->attack. Which is beneficial in certain situations. Such as a high room where you can shoot yourself up with a bullet jump, destroy one group with contagion and another with a slam/heavy slam at two different locations.

And how do you equal an attack sequence to reloading. Parts of the sequence is there since you dont have to reload. Fun also has nothing to do with useful or useless, since useful and useless are objective, while fun is 100% subjective.

17 minutes ago, quxier said:

Aim glide VS wall latch is another issue. I would prefer if we could turn off wall latch in options.

And you can always make:

- normal attack in air -> some projectile or other weird stuff

- heavy attack -> normal (heavy attack) or heavy slam (when facing down).

But that is a completely different things and has nothing to do with contagion. I too would love wall latch as a toggle in options since I dont particularly enjoy it, or atleast an option for a dedicated button.

And that just doesnt work well in the game, which is why the weapons with forces projectile air attack are clunky. You shouldnt be forced to waste combo in order to be able to land where you want, which is practically how it is now with those specific projectile melee weapons. 

21 minutes ago, quxier said:

Which one you are referring to. Just to make sure I'm not mistaking any.

Practically every single melee weapon with a projectile launch air attack.

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It should affect the Halo since it is a debuff placed on the enemy that reduces outgoing damage, as opposed to a buff on the frame that reduces incoming damage. So 80% less damage should be produced by the enemy before it hits the Halo.

Despite these being very reasonable assumptions, Puncture's debuff still doesn't reduce damage to Halo itself.  Warframe's a complicated game. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[quxier]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

But that's the same for Exodia contagion. I put mods and stuff and it doesn't do too much damage for SP Gokstak officer or Corrupted heavy gunner 160 level.

Then you dont have a Zaw or mod setup intended for contagion.

Same can be said about Mk1-braton. I see no difference.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

One of his feature were ability to cast other abilities while in the 4th. It was not bug but just excuse to nerf it. There are frames that can use abilities. It's just lottery at this point.

But it was a bug since his 4th was a full body animation, which restricts casting unless specifically stated by the skills that can actually be cast. Like Wisp 2 and Revs Reave etc. 

"Unless stated" ... which is what I'm talking about. It's arbitrary decisions.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

I can have opinion on certain thing. I may not know how powerful some stuff are but I can criticize how they function. And "power" is not that important as you can se with that Braton video.

And if you think that power isnt important, how can you claim Contagion is useless?

Power can be achieved via many things. However you cannot e.g. bullet jump without, duh, bullet jump.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

I can have opinion on certain thing. I may not know how powerful some stuff are but I can criticize how they function. And "power" is not that important as you can se with that Braton video.

You cant claim something is useless when you dont know how to use it in the first place.

But I know - double/bullet jump + aim-glide + shoot. There isn't many things I can change except bullet jump canceling (with aim-glide, afair) but that's clunky as well.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

WTF are you on about? Bullet jump is optional

No, it's not optional. You need to do one of 2: double jump OR bullet jump.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Do you not aim with guns that also makes you move slower in the process?

I do it sometimes. The thing is, I do it when I need it.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

The reason bullet jump is there is to allow you to access contagion through slide->bullet jump->aim->attack. Which is beneficial in certain situations. Such as a high room where you can shoot yourself up with a bullet jump, destroy one group with contagion and another with a slam/heavy slam at two different locations.

That's funny. You have to find situation when it's beneficial to use clunky setup. What if I don't want to? Why not just simply attack + aimglide? Maybe with restriction of 1 before landing if they want to be extra hard on this. So you want simply attack in the air? JUmp + aimglide + attack. You want to do above? Use Bullet jump as you described.

There are many ways to make it fun to use without making it clunky (restricted to certain very specific combinations).

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And how do you equal an attack sequence to reloading. Parts of the sequence is there since you dont have to reload. Fun also has nothing to do with useful or useless, since useful and useless are objective, while fun is 100% subjective.

What I'm trying to say how easy to use (not overly complicated) or intuitive and not breaking immersion something can be. Reload example might be not great for you so let's talk about old melee and Tennokai.

In old melee system you have some combos that have arbitrary pauses. I don't know if game showed when you may pause to execute certain combo. From my memory it was just memorizing combos. Now you have 4 basic combos. You don't need to learn key combinations BUT how to use them. You press forward & attack? Frame attack while moving. Of course implementation is not always great but the premise is good.

Tennokai is immersion breaker (except 1 "on 4 tennokai" mod). You get free/faster Tennokai but it's arbitrary. It's not that some enemy do something to you and you react (like parrying in Duviri). No, it's just happens.

 

What I like about New melees system, simple projectiles (aerial or heavy) is just I don't have to think about what key combination I have to use. They focus on much more important thing which is where and when to use it.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And that just doesnt work well in the game, which is why the weapons with forces projectile air attack are clunky. You shouldnt be forced to waste combo in order to be able to land where you want, which is practically how it is now with those specific projectile melee weapons. 

It's still much better than using some arbitrary key combination of Exodia contagion. Sure, you loose combo but the combat is much more intuitive.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Which one you are referring to. Just to make sure I'm not mistaking any.

Practically every single melee weapon with a projectile launch air attack.

I can heavy slam just fine with Vitrica.

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Despite these being very reasonable assumptions, Puncture's debuff still doesn't reduce damage to Halo itself.  Warframe's a complicated game. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

DE really needs to go over their systems. I mean this is as bad and inconsistant as it gets. I understand the reasoning regarding things like Adaptation or DR skill, but when the effect is on the mob before they even produce their damage it makes it look so ass backwards. Oh well, DE being DE... 

 

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Same can be said about Mk1-braton. I see no difference.

Clearly that cant be said about the MK1 since it struggles even with absolute potential put into it. The Zaw just needs... well the Zaw. Or due you find a crit weapon useless aswell just because you try to build it for status even though it has no status to really build on? Which is likely your case with Contagion, you using the completely different Zaw components and modding.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

"Unless stated" ... which is what I'm talking about. It's arbitrary decisions.

Not at all. It wasnt stated on Styanax, he didnt even have animations or interactions tied to it. So it was quite obviously a bug from day 1. Everyone (well I guess not you) saw it from miles and miles away. The only part of the change that was questionable which could have been intended was his "flight" since other frames can do roughly the same, like Garuda and Protea.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Power can be achieved via many things. However you cannot e.g. bullet jump without, duh, bullet jump.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

But I know - double/bullet jump + aim-glide + shoot. There isn't many things I can change except bullet jump canceling (with aim-glide, afair) but that's clunky as well.

Why are you so obsessed with bullet jump when it is optional? Seriously, use the damn arcane before you make S#&$ up.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

No, it's not optional. You need to do one of 2: double jump OR bullet jump.

This is the most hilarious sentence I will probably read in 2024! It's not optional you say then you still manage to get the word or in there between double jump and bullet jump, aswell as saying "do one of 2". That is the very meaning of optional, you can use it but you arent required to, it is one option i.e optional.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

That's funny. You have to find situation when it's beneficial to use clunky setup. What if I don't want to? Why not just simply attack + aimglide? Maybe with restriction of 1 before landing if they want to be extra hard on this. So you want simply attack in the air? JUmp + aimglide + attack. You want to do above? Use Bullet jump as you described.

There are many ways to make it fun to use without making it clunky (restricted to certain very specific combinations).

But it isnt clunky, since the interaction is there to allow you to use contagion if you double jump, so you arent restricted to only being close to the ground. If I dont want to then I bloody wont. How is that hard to grasp? Why would I use the bullet jump trigger if I dont have a reason to bullet jump when I dont need to bullet jump to activate it in the first place? And what you describe, jump+aim+attack is already there, it just happens to be 2x jump, which is done just as fast as a jump. So I dont really get what you are arguing about. What is so complicated with 2x jump? I just dont get it.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

What I like about New melees system, simple projectiles (aerial or heavy) is just I don't have to think about what key combination I have to use. They focus on much more important thing which is where and when to use it.

No one here is talking about heavy projectiles though, since the few we have of those are ground based. However, the aerial projectile system is straight up horrible, since the trigger is based on camera angle and nothing more. So you end up throwing projectiles when you dont want to, or slam when you dont want to beucase they lack an actual trigger to force them or avoid them. All of those #*!%ing weapons should follow Contagion or Vitrica so they arent clunky.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

It's still much better than using some arbitrary key combination of Exodia contagion. Sure, you loose combo but the combat is much more intuitive.

No really, its not. Intuiative would be having an actual command to use or avoid the projectile part.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

I can heavy slam just fine with Vitrica.

This is also hilarious. Why do you mention Vitrica when we talk about forced aerial weapons while at the same time also complaining about contagion? Vitrica doesnt have forced aerial for one, the aerial works exactly like contagion with one small exception, it can be triggered by a single jump+aim instead of 2x jump+aim. On the other hand it deals no damage, since the damage comes from a follow up slam. But somehow you are OK with using Vitrica, which is in the end more clunky than Contagion in order to deal damage with its special perk. You are a walking wonder of contradictions.

 

[quxier]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

23 hours ago, quxier said:

"Unless stated" ... which is what I'm talking about. It's arbitrary decisions.

Not at all. It wasnt stated on Styanax, he didnt even have animations or interactions tied to it. So it was quite obviously a bug from day 1. Everyone (well I guess not you) saw it from miles and miles away. The only part of the change that was questionable which could have been intended was his "flight" since other frames can do roughly the same, like Garuda and Protea.

But why STyanax cannot e.g. cast other abilities while Wisp cna cast her Ghost? It's just arbitrary decision.

 

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

23 hours ago, quxier said:

That's funny. You have to find situation when it's beneficial to use clunky setup. What if I don't want to? Why not just simply attack + aimglide? Maybe with restriction of 1 before landing if they want to be extra hard on this. So you want simply attack in the air? JUmp + aimglide + attack. You want to do above? Use Bullet jump as you described.

There are many ways to make it fun to use without making it clunky (restricted to certain very specific combinations).

But it isnt clunky, since the interaction is there to allow you to use contagion if you double jump, so you arent restricted to only being close to the ground.

Wait, what? So I'm not restricted to being close to ground. Sure. However let me tell you little secret. Using other "aerial attacks" melees you are not restricted to be close to ground either. You can jump, bullet jump or double jump. Restriction is only one (except aimglide). Do it in the air.

You cannot say that "Contagion doesn't restricts you to only being close to ground". Not requiring bullet/double jump doesn't mean you are restricted to be "close to the ground".

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

nd what you describe, jump+aim+attack is already there, it just happens to be 2x jump, which is done just as fast as a jump. So I dont really get what you are arguing about. What is so complicated with 2x jump? I just dont get it.

It's not very complicated it's just arbitrary key combination. If I shoot guns I just press LMB. Do you think people will be fine with e.g. having to press RMB with LMB all the time? I don't think so.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

23 hours ago, quxier said:

What I like about New melees system, simple projectiles (aerial or heavy) is just I don't have to think about what key combination I have to use. They focus on much more important thing which is where and when to use it.

However, the aerial projectile system is straight up horrible, since the trigger is based on camera angle and nothing more. So you end up throwing projectiles when you dont want to, or slam when you dont want to beucase they lack an actual trigger to force them or avoid them. All of those #*!%ing weapons should follow Contagion or Vitrica so they arent clunky.

I have no big problem with simple aerial attacks - I just don't look down. Sure, I'm gliding + attack is better however it's still much better than double/bullet jump system of Contagion.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

23 hours ago, quxier said:

It's still much better than using some arbitrary key combination of Exodia contagion. Sure, you loose combo but the combat is much more intuitive.

No really, its not. Intuiative would be having an actual command to use or avoid the projectile part.

With Contagion it's the same problem as we don't have "actual comand".

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

23 hours ago, quxier said:

I can heavy slam just fine with Vitrica.

This is also hilarious. Why do you mention Vitrica when we talk about forced aerial weapons while at the same time also complaining about contagion? Vitrica doesnt have forced aerial for one, the aerial works exactly like contagion with one small exception, it can be triggered by a single jump+aim instead of 2x jump+aim. On the other hand it deals no damage, since the damage comes from a follow up slam. But somehow you are OK with using Vitrica, which is in the end more clunky than Contagion in order to deal damage with its special perk. You are a walking wonder of contradictions.

Well, you know, game is more than big numbers. It may seems weird for you as what you care only about is big number of Contagion but there are other aspects of game.

Vitrica says only "attack in air" (except wall latch problem). So I go there and I don't care if I've pressed right keys. I see frame in the air then I know I can attack. I glass an enemy then I can shatter them. How? Simply by using force. Slams sounds natural.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, quxier said:

But why STyanax cannot e.g. cast other abilities while Wisp cna cast her Ghost? It's just arbitrary decision.

Because was designed with that intent, so was Revenant. Styanax wasnt, it was a bug that slipped through.

17 hours ago, quxier said:

Wait, what? So I'm not restricted to being close to ground. Sure. However let me tell you little secret. Using other "aerial attacks" melees you are not restricted to be close to ground either. You can jump, bullet jump or double jump. Restriction is only one (except aimglide). Do it in the air.

You cannot say that "Contagion doesn't restricts you to only being close to ground". Not requiring bullet/double jump doesn't mean you are restricted to be "close to the ground".

That doesnt really matter. Since their trigger is worse and based on your angle. And you also miss my point. The only thing removing the 2x or bullet jump would do is allow Contagion to be used with a 1x jump aswell, nothing else. And few would likely use it with a single jump anyways since gaining more air to hit more properly would still be far more beneficial. All in order to either land a perfect AoE, or a direct hit on a heavy target for multiple damage instances.

17 hours ago, quxier said:

It's not very complicated it's just arbitrary key combination. If I shoot guns I just press LMB. Do you think people will be fine with e.g. having to press RMB with LMB all the time? I don't think so.

Well yes, hence why people use Kuva Quarthakk and Knell for instance. Oh look! Not all weapons need to work the same way! What a shocker!

17 hours ago, quxier said:

I have no big problem with simple aerial attacks - I just don't look down. Sure, I'm gliding + attack is better however it's still much better than double/bullet jump system of Contagion.

"I just don't look down"... until you happen to, at which point it does the opposite of what you want. It is a matter of a 1 degree difference in angle. Not to mention that you cannot do long slams with those weapons either, no matter how much you want to, since if you go for that you will instead just flail or throw the weapon, because the long slam angle is simply too high in elevation in comparison to the horizon. And no, they are the worst possible triggers in the whole game.

17 hours ago, quxier said:

With Contagion it's the same problem as we don't have "actual comand".

LOL! But we do have an actual command, it is the whole thing you've criticized about it, with aiming being the actual command that decides if you will throw contagion, air attack or slam.

17 hours ago, quxier said:

Well, you know, game is more than big numbers. It may seems weird for you as what you care only about is big number of Contagion but there are other aspects of game.

Vitrica says only "attack in air" (except wall latch problem). So I go there and I don't care if I've pressed right keys. I see frame in the air then I know I can attack. I glass an enemy then I can shatter them. How? Simply by using force. Slams sounds natural.

No one has mentioned big numbers. I mentioned the interactions needed to pull of the damage portion of Vitrica which is the whole point you glass enemies in the first place with the attack that is nearly identical to contagion. Glassing does very little since you cant use it to CC, becuase the enemies break free on the first instance of damage.

While aim gliding yes. And the difference is minimal, since the only extra part of contagion is that it requires 2x jump instead of just being in the air. But that is still only 1 out of the total air variables that seperates Vitrica from Contagion, and that is very likely due to the fact you must slam in order to deal damage, which is an additional trigger in itself. If the aimglide attack produced the damage aswell I'd get the idea of wanting Contagion to also possibly work with only a single jump+aim. But you are in the end really making a mountain out of an ant hill.

[quxier]

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

18 hours ago, quxier said:

But why STyanax cannot e.g. cast other abilities while Wisp cna cast her Ghost? It's just arbitrary decision.

Because was designed with that intent, so was Revenant. Styanax wasnt, it was a bug that slipped through.

How something like this slipped?! I could understand how it was intended or how "overpowered" it could be but this? How someone not try to press other buttons with long ability?!

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

18 hours ago, quxier said:

Wait, what? So I'm not restricted to being close to ground. Sure. However let me tell you little secret. Using other "aerial attacks" melees you are not restricted to be close to ground either. You can jump, bullet jump or double jump. Restriction is only one (except aimglide). Do it in the air.

You cannot say that "Contagion doesn't restricts you to only being close to ground". Not requiring bullet/double jump doesn't mean you are restricted to be "close to the ground".

And you also miss my point. The only thing removing the 2x or bullet jump would do is allow Contagion to be used with a 1x jump aswell, nothing else. And few would likely use it with a single jump anyways since gaining more air to hit more properly would still be far more beneficial. All in order to either land a perfect AoE, or a direct hit on a heavy target for multiple damage instances.

Getting more air can be achived via other ways as well. YOu can for example stand on some "mountain" (e.g. Fortuna's statues)  and just jump from them.

And gaining more air is not always beneficial, as I've already said.

So, no, it wouldn't be just "for fun".

21 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

18 hours ago, quxier said:

It's not very complicated it's just arbitrary key combination. If I shoot guns I just press LMB. Do you think people will be fine with e.g. having to press RMB with LMB all the time? I don't think so.

Well yes, hence why people use Kuva Quarthakk and Knell for instance. Oh look! Not all weapons need to work the same way! What a shocker!

Sure, Knell is 1.32, but Quartak? 0.24. Yet people use things like Nukor where they just need to hold one button. Some people will use weapon with more complicated usage. I've used it myself. It's not my top weapons. However those weapons are not overcomplicated for the sake of making our live harder. You mentioned Quartak. That's pretty good design. You have one mode by simply firing. Other mode is used for simply aiming (holding block key). Look at Exodia contagion. It changes 1 of its attack and add something more to make it harder (even it's simple one more tap).

32 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

18 hours ago, quxier said:

I have no big problem with simple aerial attacks - I just don't look down. Sure, I'm gliding + attack is better however it's still much better than double/bullet jump system of Contagion.

"I just don't look down"... until you happen to, at which point it does the opposite of what you want. It is a matter of a 1 degree difference in angle.

Then it happens once per hundreds shoots. I don't know. It feels pretty natural after some session to just have some space between aerial shoots. I just don't use that space. So that 1 degree difference is not huge problem for me.

38 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

18 hours ago, quxier said:

With Contagion it's the same problem as we don't have "actual comand".

LOL! But we do have an actual command, it is the whole thing you've criticized about it, with aiming being the actual command that decides if you will throw contagion, air attack or slam.

We have command over shoot but not over our jumps.

39 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

18 hours ago, quxier said:

Well, you know, game is more than big numbers. It may seems weird for you as what you care only about is big number of Contagion but there are other aspects of game.

Vitrica says only "attack in air" (except wall latch problem). So I go there and I don't care if I've pressed right keys. I see frame in the air then I know I can attack. I glass an enemy then I can shatter them. How? Simply by using force. Slams sounds natural.

No one has mentioned big numbers

YOu? When I talk about issues that I have Contagion you just dismiss it and says that "it kills the strongest units".

42 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I mentioned the interactions needed to pull of the damage portion of Vitrica which is the whole point you glass enemies in the first place with the attack that is nearly identical to contagion. Glassing does very little since you cant use it to CC, becuase the enemies break free on the first instance of damage.

While aim gliding yes. And the difference is minimal, since the only extra part of contagion is that it requires 2x jump instead of just being in the air. But that is still only 1 out of the total air variables that seperates Vitrica from Contagion, and that is very likely due to the fact you must slam in order to deal damage, which is an additional trigger in itself. If the aimglide attack produced the damage aswell I'd get the idea of wanting Contagion to also possibly work with only a single jump+aim. But you are in the end really making a mountain out of an ant hill.

Purpose of glassing enemies is not to deal damage. Sure CC is not the best but it's useful (at least on normal units, because Overguarded & co is another can of worms). Glass is destroyed but you still have short time. I can for example kill corrutped butcher 160 with my not so great amp while Butcher is still glassed (almost). I don't know exact math.

I've played in Simulacrum with 5 corrupted heavies and the rest of Butchers (160 rank). I wanted to play with Glassing. Not even once I felt like "ok I need to jump, glass (aerial attack) and slam". It was natural. Sometimes I was (almost) bunny hopping, sometimes I put some slams. And I have not sued that weapon for long time (I'm just getting Incarnon melees and Duviri weapons and playing with them so "I have no time").

Contagion is opposite. I have to think If I've pressed that jump button twice.

 

Well... that's lot of talk but I think I'm stopping here, as I see we are in "revenant" topic (after writing whole post, so I will post it so it won't be total waste, lol). You could message me or something.

[SneakyErvin]

7 minutes ago, quxier said:

How something like this slipped?! I could understand how it was intended or how "overpowered" it could be but this? How someone not try to press other buttons with long ability?!

Like how other things slip, like simple thing such an interaction with a common NPC might result in the game becoming soft locked. Things a test group should in reality run into but just didnt.

14 minutes ago, quxier said:

Sure, Knell is 1.32, but Quartak? 0.24. Yet people use things like Nukor where they just need to hold one button. Some people will use weapon with more complicated usage. I've used it myself. It's not my top weapons. However those weapons are not overcomplicated for the sake of making our live harder. You mentioned Quartak. That's pretty good design. You have one mode by simply firing. Other mode is used for simply aiming (holding block key). Look at Exodia contagion. It changes 1 of its attack and add something more to make it harder (even it's simple one more tap).

You asked if people would be fine with such mechanics and they clearly are. Which is all that is needed to answer your question. Just as people use the block combo for certain weapons. Contagion isnt made harder, it is simply given a trigger. What do you want, auto thrown contagion on everything you do? Because removing the second jump wont really change anything, and it is the only part that can really be changed.

18 minutes ago, quxier said:

Then it happens once per hundreds shoots. I don't know. It feels pretty natural after some session to just have some space between aerial shoots. I just don't use that space. So that 1 degree difference is not huge problem for me.

And which aerial projectile melee weapons do you use? I mean, you asked earlier which I refered to and I said pretty much all. By which you go an bring up Vitrica. So do you even use any melee with a projectile based on camera angle? I'm having big doubts about that due to your massive confusion regarding things already.

20 minutes ago, quxier said:

We have command over shoot but not over our jumps.

LOL what? So uhm... you pressing your dedicated jump button is jump not having a specific command to you? Right now I cant... like... seriously... kids please stay of drugs.

22 minutes ago, quxier said:

YOu? When I talk about issues that I have Contagion you just dismiss it and says that "it kills the strongest units".

In a completely unrelated part, in a post where you implied contagion was useless due to its damage by bringing up the old multi cast of it getting nerfed, which is nothing but a subject of damage. In relation to Vitrica, it was only about what is required from the two pulling of the same goal.

24 minutes ago, quxier said:

Purpose of glassing enemies is not to deal damage. Sure CC is not the best but it's useful (at least on normal units, because Overguarded & co is another can of worms). Glass is destroyed but you still have short time. I can for example kill corrutped butcher 160 with my not so great amp while Butcher is still glassed (almost). I don't know exact math.

I've played in Simulacrum with 5 corrupted heavies and the rest of Butchers (160 rank). I wanted to play with Glassing. Not even once I felt like "ok I need to jump, glass (aerial attack) and slam". It was natural. Sometimes I was (almost) bunny hopping, sometimes I put some slams. And I have not sued that weapon for long time (I'm just getting Incarnon melees and Duviri weapons and playing with them so "I have no time").

Contagion is opposite. I have to think If I've pressed that jump button twice.

 

Well... that's lot of talk but I think I'm stopping here, as I see we are in "revenant" topic (after writing whole post, so I will post it so it won't be total waste, lol). You could message me or something.

But it is. The purpose is to set them up for a quick follow up from a slam to damage them. And you alsmost killing a Butcher with an amp is highly irrelevant to this, since that is not exactly any reasonable "proof" of how useful or pointless the glass part is of the weapon. Why would you even waste time to throw a non damaging thing to CC something as trivial as a Butcher when you can practically fart it to death?

I dont know what your sim experience has to do with anything since it isnt the live game where things happen all around you and things arent flat and perfect 24/7. 

You shouldnt need to think about if you've 1x or 2x jumped, since the altitude should be a dead givaway, so would the animation be due to the very clear tumble. Unless you have extremely poor reaction time. In which case, if you are still in the air by the time you react, then you have double jumped, otherwise you'd be on the floor again already.

In "revenant" topic? Huh? 🤷‍♂️

 

[GPrime96]

On 1/31/2024 at 8:28 PM, Lord_Chibi said:

if Revenant gets nerfed then everyone will hop back to Inaros anyways...

That's who everyone used before the introduction of Revenant Prime/Revenant's Mesmer Skin buff.

A nerfed Revenant would be a lot better than Inaros, sand boy’s that bad currently and the reason he’s getting a rework

[Lord_Chibi]

7 hours ago, GPrime96 said:

A nerfed Revenant would be a lot better than Inaros, sand boy’s that bad currently and the reason he’s getting a rework

When steel path came out Inaros was used by casuals until Revenant got the buff. 

 

Now that Inaros is getting buffed he will definitely overtake Revenant if Revenant gets the boot.