Changing how recharging weapons work.

[0_The_F00l]

11 hours ago, ominumi said:

I saying Reload as a stats should NOT be mess with because it can alter the performance of a weapon. Be it by recharge, or physical remove of the magezine. 

That's the point. I do want players to be able to influence the effective performance.

5 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

So what will be the downside?

E.G. what will be taken away for this "buff" as you see it?

After all I don't think DE is just going to buff every battery weapon in the game "Just because!"

Do you see the reload speed slowing down unless you jumping through 10 different hoops to just get it back to barely above what it was before?
or some other trade off?

 

After all ominumi has pointed out that reload speed of battery weapon is one of the various balancing levers that DE has used in the past.
And you want to drastically change the position of said balance lever.....so what's the trade off?
How will the weapon be made worse just so you can bounce off 5 walls and roll 3 times just to buff up the reload speed?  Where if you don't play like a rabbit on crack it just sucks and is painful to use? (which is why I don't like the Gauss weaponry....)

It really depends on the weapons in question. It cant be one size fits all.

Lets take the bubonico , if you use up your whole magazine while using primary fire it will consume 5% of your health , if you consume your whole magazine with alternate fire it will explode on your arm like the proboscis cernos staggering you but also trying to absorb enemies around you. Enemies killed this way have a guaranteed health drop.

For tenet cycron if you keep using it it will start building heat , due to which it will keep getting slower to recharge until holstered/put away for a few seconds. if you keep using it despite of that it will give you a heat proc.

The kitguns with pax charge would depend on the type of kitgun.

[Aruquae]

5 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

That's the point. I do want players to be able to influence the effective performance.

It really depends on the weapons in question. It cant be one size fits all.

Lets take the bubonico , if you use up your whole magazine while using primary fire it will consume 5% of your health , if you consume your whole magazine with alternate fire it will explode on your arm like the proboscis cernos staggering you but also trying to absorb enemies around you. Enemies killed this way have a guaranteed health drop.

For tenet cycron if you keep using it it will start building heat , due to which it will keep getting slower to recharge until holstered/put away for a few seconds. if you keep using it despite of that it will give you a heat proc.

The kitguns with pax charge would depend on the type of kitgun.

Not sure if adding downsides to rechargeable weapons is the way to go.

If anything it should act like the sirroco where the player is rewarded for quick timing. The idea for Bubonico or Cycron sounds… janky. 

[0_The_F00l]

10 hours ago, Aruquae said:

Not sure if adding downsides to rechargeable weapons is the way to go.

If anything it should act like the sirroco where the player is rewarded for quick timing. The idea for Bubonico or Cycron sounds… janky. 

Risk and reward 

[Aruquae]

6 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Risk and reward 

While it’s true we need risk and reward, I think this would discourage Tenno. 
I personally would be fine with an uber powerful gun that can also one shot me if I’m not careful. But others… I think they would smell and breath the word “nerf” as soon as they can. 

[0_The_F00l]

2 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

While it’s true we need risk and reward, I think this would discourage Tenno. 
I personally would be fine with an uber powerful gun that can also one shot me if I’m not careful. But others… I think they would smell and breath the word “nerf” as soon as they can. 

Haha , I just imagined having to rapidly spin the cycron like those magnet powered torches or crank it like a jack in the box.

[Aruquae]

2 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Haha , I just imagined having to rapidly spin the cycron like those magnet powered torches or crank it like a jack in the box.

New weapon incoming 

“Void in the Wall” toss a concrete wall at enemies; alt fire cranks a little knob on the wall to launch a Qorvex. Qorvex deals “boo” damage while stunning every enemy like a baby seeing a Jack in the Box for the first time. 

[Xaero]

On 2024-02-04 at 9:50 PM, Voltage said:

Kuva Bramma still spams with one of, if not the worst ammo economy for AoE weapons. Ammo was trivial before those changes and remains trivial after.

I do a lot of public runs. Before the ammo rework I've seen at least one Bramma player in 95% of my runs. After the rework it's only been a couple times and they were far from spamming.

On 2024-02-04 at 9:50 PM, Voltage said:

Battery weapons are strong, but not that strong. The only time people "abused" battery weapons was for oversights in their firing behavior (Shedu for example).

My Sporelacer shreds though.

[ominumi]

13 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Risk and reward 

If you want a 'risk and reward' it should be a Corrupted Mod. Not someting innate into the weapon design itself. Because you weren't around at the time of launcher killing the wielder.

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, Xaero said:

I do a lot of public runs. Before the ammo rework I've seen at least one Bramma player in 95% of my runs. After the rework it's only been a couple times and they were far from spamming.

That's because the latest flavor of AoE is Thermal Sunder and Torid Incarnon. The goalpost moves over the years, but it's always been the same AoE spam, completely disregarding Ammo.

2 hours ago, Xaero said:

My Sporelacer shreds though.

Cool, so do most weapons with how much power creep we have. Sporelacer isn't an overtuned weapon or "too strong" for having battery mechanics. I have Rivens for Tombfinger, Sporelacer, and Tenet Cycron.

[Xaero]

12 hours ago, Voltage said:

Cool, so do most weapons with how much power creep we have. Sporelacer isn't an overtuned weapon or "too strong" for having battery mechanics. I have Rivens for Tombfinger, Sporelacer, and Tenet Cycron.

It just doesn't feel right that battery system has no drawbacks. I'd rather buff the weapons that use it.

[0_The_F00l]

16 hours ago, ominumi said:

If you want a 'risk and reward' it should be a Corrupted Mod. Not someting innate into the weapon design itself. Because you weren't around at the time of launcher killing the wielder.

I have been here since before the tonkor was the best explosive weapon cause it didn't have self damage.

I have been here before we had an actual star chart and had weird little grids around planets, 

I have been around before relics were a concept and tower keys were a menace and Loki was considered top tier.

Any well designed weapon should have the necessary checks and balances as part of its innate capability. Mods (corrupted or otherwise) should expand on it.

[ominumi]

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I have been here since before the tonkor was the best explosive weapon cause it didn't have self damage.

I have been here before we had an actual star chart and had weird little grids around planets, 

I have been around before relics were a concept and tower keys were a menace and Loki was considered top tier.

Any well designed weapon should have the necessary checks and balances as part of its innate capability. Mods (corrupted or otherwise) should expand on it.

Then you should understand how powerful reactant buff is even if that buff is temporary. Put that aside, this is warframe any and all downside can be negated. Subsume Gloom exist to ignore health lost. 

[Skoomaseller]

On 2024-02-04 at 1:49 PM, Miser_able said:

could also give some of them mechanics similar to the perfect reload on the sirocco

I want this but on a bolt-action sniper rifle (no, the Vectis doesn't count). Risk of Rain Sniper feel. 

[0_The_F00l]

21 minutes ago, ominumi said:

Then you should understand how powerful reactant buff is even if that buff is temporary. Put that aside, this is warframe any and all downside can be negated. Subsume Gloom exist to ignore health lost. 

I don't see how that is relevant to my awareness of old mechanics or my time in the game.

Reactant buffs can happen to either frames , primary , secondary or melee. So having that level of randomness on top of being temporary is really not that much of a problem. It also completely removes reloading , so it affects all weapons battery or otherwise.

I am starting to feel you don't actually have any compelling points to make for battery weapons and are grasping at any mechanic that can be used to justify maintaining a status quo.

Downsides can and upto a point should be mitigated , by building for it to match your playstyle or matching your playstyle as per the build. It's not a novel concept, it's how proper modding works.

[ominumi]

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I don't see how that is relevant to my awareness of old mechanics or my time in the game.

Reactant buffs can happen to either frames , primary , secondary or melee. So having that level of randomness on top of being temporary is really not that much of a problem. It also completely removes reloading , so it affects all weapons battery or otherwise.

I am starting to feel you don't actually have any compelling points to make for battery weapons and are grasping at any mechanic that can be used to justify maintaining a status quo.

Downsides can and upto a point should be mitigated , by building for it to match your playstyle or matching your playstyle as per the build. It's not a novel concept, it's how proper modding works.

Your opening post suggest a hinderence or cost for reloading. It'll take a mod or ability just to negate the effect. What we have currently in game doesn't take an extra step just so we can shoot a gun. Why do you want an extra step just to rereload a weapon? How is that better than what we have now?

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

Have we all forgotten that there were significant changes to battery weapons in the Ammo/AOE nerf.

But DE had to revert the battery ones because of how terrible it made battery weapons to use. 

If we want changes to their function. I think that's fine but it probably should just be a mod.

[0_The_F00l]

6 hours ago, ominumi said:

Your opening post suggest a hinderence or cost for reloading. It'll take a mod or ability just to negate the effect. What we have currently in game doesn't take an extra step just so we can shoot a gun. Why do you want an extra step just to rereload a weapon? How is that better than what we have now?

Then I suggest you re read my opening post.

There is no extra step to shoot the weapon. 

And the extra step to reload is to make the reload faster for some weapons at a cost.

[ominumi]

24 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Then I suggest you re read my opening post.

There is no extra step to shoot the weapon. 

And the extra step to reload is to make the reload faster for some weapons at a cost.

Reload speed is there to balance damage uptime. Guns like Trumna has insane reload speed to balance the weapon. Shedu has long recharge delay to balance the weapon. You just want to shoot more and wait less. I suggest using Synth set on companions. Switch weapons or better yet, just melee so there's little downtime for attacking.

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, ominumi said:

Reload speed is there to balance damage uptime. Guns like Trumna has insane reload speed to balance the weapon. Shedu has long recharge delay to balance the weapon. You just want to shoot more and wait less. I suggest using Synth set on companions. Switch weapons or better yet, just melee so there's little downtime for attacking.

Trumna is not the topic of discussion. Try to stay on point. I am talking of very specific weapons.

[ominumi]

13 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Trumna is not the topic of discussion. Try to stay on point. I am talking of very specific weapons.

Have you notice the difference in performance with archguns?  When you're on a necromech and on foot using archgun deployer? Same weapon. With the exact same mods. Drastic performances. The ony difference is how the weapon reloads.

[0_The_F00l]

7 hours ago, ominumi said:

Have you notice the difference in performance with archguns?  When you're on a necromech and on foot using archgun deployer? Same weapon. With the exact same mods. Drastic performances. The ony difference is how the weapon reloads.

Have you noticed the fact that you need a mech to benefit from it ? And you lose access to warframes (and all their bonuses) ? And that it's only available in a limited set of missions ?

Honestly , really feels like your are throwing mechanics without understanding what you are talking about.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

On 2024-02-03 at 11:44 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

So I have seen in many conversation that rechargable ammo weapons comes up as the next alternative to keep up mindless slaughter while feeding you up from ammo management.

While I don't fully agree that's the case for every weapon with recharge mechanics , It does raise some questions , 

For those that don't know , there are weapons that reload their magazine over time without actually needing ammo pickups.

So I thought what if the recharging could be made a bit more engaging and also provide some benefits while having some checks and balances.

There would be a few different kinds depending on the weapon type.

For most Tenno/corpus weapons I thought of Gauss and how he generates battery charge , he does so by moving around very fast. What if we can apply the same logic to battery weapons , you still recharge at a fixed rate , but having fast movement recharges it that much faster.

For things like the shedu ,basmu and bubonico it would consume your health if you reload from empty (it reloads full magazine and does so relatively quickly), but reloading from empty would also give you some health leech effects (basmu already does this pretty well, and hema is an excellent reference granting health on headshots)  

I don't recollect any grineer weapons that have a battery mechanism.

How about no.

 

How about lets not fabricate a "fix" for something that isnt broken and cram it into a problem that doesnt exist and *make* new problems.

Im still salty that weapons that didnt need nerfs got nerfed anyway because DE decided to take the ammo away from merciless for all weapons not just the few problematic AOE weapons.

[0_The_F00l]

14 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

How about no.

 

How about lets not fabricate a "fix" for something that isnt broken and cram it into a problem that doesnt exist and *make* new problems.

Im still salty that weapons that didnt need nerfs got nerfed anyway because DE decided to take the ammo away from merciless for all weapons not just the few problematic AOE weapons.

You are free to have your opinions. I am not targeting every weapon , only very specific ones.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

On 2024-02-11 at 12:12 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

You are free to have your opinions. I am not targeting every weapon , only very specific ones.

The fact that youre "only targeting specific ones" doesnt make it a good idea. 

[0_The_F00l]

4 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

The fact that youre "only targeting specific ones" doesnt make it a good idea. 

Once again , you are free to your opinions.