Why does ember's energy drain continually grow?

[OgreEye]

10 per second is already brutal, the fact that it keeps growing on top of that is really rough; The effect just isn't strong enough to merit it, and it's weird as hell that the fire warframe gets punished for being on fire. Can we just axe this antisynergy? plenty of other frames have considerably more manageable 90% DR options.

[Chewarette]

It's barely noticeable if you mod her correctly and don't spend your life at 90 whatever-the-unit-this-is

[--Leyenda-yight6]

It's barely noticeable... after adding maximum efficiency, high duration, increasing your 4 and energize, all that energy economy just to maintain 90% DR, something many warframes achieve at an absurdly lower cost.

[Binket_]

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Fire_Blast

"Each cast of Fire Blast decreases Immolation's rate of heat generation by 2% per second, while also removing 50% heat."
You're supposed to use Fire Blast as a way offload Immolation's increasing gauge.

Yeah, funny that. You're not supposed to JUST spam her 4.
I know, tall order for Warframe players. Actually having to press more than 1 button?! Criminal, truly.

 

Just a reminder for everyone, there are two reasons for DE dumbing down the game.
... And why posts like this exist...

1. Nobody is bright enough to read the Wiki.
2. DE is too stubborn to just incorporate the Wiki directly into the game itself.
   ^{Or at the very least dedicate a section to explaining these abilities in more detail, giving players ways to full understand their kits.}

I don't exactly blame Console players for this, but most of my run-ins with incredibly stubbornly dumb players have been from there.
I assume it's because they don't wanna pull out their phone and scroll through a bunch of text to find out about their ability.
Understandable, but that's the nature of the beast with this game. One could teach them-- but I can't keep doing that for EVERY single player.

[OgreEye]

8 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Fire_Blast

"Each cast of Fire Blast decreases Immolation's rate of heat generation by 2% per second, while also removing 50% heat."
You're supposed to use Fire Blast as a way offload Immolation's increasing gauge.

Yeah, funny that. You're not supposed to JUST spam her 4.
I know, tall order for Warframe players. Actually having to press more than 1 button?! Criminal, truly.

 

Just a reminder for everyone, there are two reasons for DE dumbing down the game.
... And why posts like this exist...

1. Nobody is bright enough to read the Wiki.
2. DE is too stubborn to just incorporate the Wiki directly into the game itself.
   ^{Or at the very least dedicate a section to explaining these abilities in more detail, giving players ways to full understand their kits.}

I don't exactly blame Console players for this, but most of my run-ins with incredibly stubbornly dumb players have been from there.
I assume it's because they don't wanna pull out their phone and scroll through a bunch of text to find out about their ability.
Understandable, but that's the nature of the beast with this game. One could teach them-- but I can't keep doing that for EVERY single player.

Yeah it removes 50% heat. You know, the stuff you need to keep your DR up? The difference between the DR I have at 100% heat and the DR I have at 50% heat is VERY much the difference between life and death. It leaves me too vulnerable to be regularly used. Now if it scaled in a way that made sense and I could get my lower end DR above the absolute piddly 50% it was capped to that would be fine, but it doesn't, so here we are. Also, frankly speaking, I would be very surprised if you've spent 1/4 of the time I have on the wiki, I basically have lived there since I started playing the game.

Edited February 27 by OgreEye

[Divinehero]

23 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Fire_Blast

"Each cast of Fire Blast decreases Immolation's rate of heat generation by 2% per second, while also removing 50% heat."
You're supposed to use Fire Blast as a way offload Immolation's increasing gauge.

Yeah, funny that. You're not supposed to JUST spam her 4.
I know, tall order for Warframe players. Actually having to press more than 1 button?! Criminal, truly.

 

Just a reminder for everyone, there are two reasons for DE dumbing down the game.
... And why posts like this exist...

1. Nobody is bright enough to read the Wiki.
2. DE is too stubborn to just incorporate the Wiki directly into the game itself.
   ^{Or at the very least dedicate a section to explaining these abilities in more detail, giving players ways to full understand their kits.}

I don't exactly blame Console players for this, but most of my run-ins with incredibly stubbornly dumb players have been from there.
I assume it's because they don't wanna pull out their phone and scroll through a bunch of text to find out about their ability.
Understandable, but that's the nature of the beast with this game. One could teach them-- but I can't keep doing that for EVERY single player.

..condescending much? also ur missing the OP's point ENTIRELY.. no other frame has to constantly spend energy to maintain their DR buff for them it's cast and forget... i have the same issue with ember.. the sustain cost gets FAR too high and u have to sacrifice alot to  maintain it and ember's not exactly durable so if ur running high enuf content u'll basically explode from dropping that DR for even a bit

not to mention once u've had immolation up long enuf/cast enuf u have to either basically dump ur energy pool into fireblast to get it back down to a managable level or disable and re-enable it which again is suicidal in higher lvl content

Edited February 27 by Divinehero

[Binket_]

18 minutes ago, OgreEye said:

You know, the stuff you need to keep your DR up?

Yes, I'm well aware.

You also have Shields to work with as well you know, of which also get the benefit of your Damage Reduction.
Even at 50% (the bare minimum of Damage Reduction), it'll still stave off most dangerous attacks for most Steel-Path content.
Especially if you have a few Augur Mods and/or Fast Deflection.

The enemies (so long as they're not immune to stuns/knockdowns) should be stunned long enough with a Fire Blast to get some breathing room.
It's not prefect mind you, that's where the player's intuition is supposed to come into play. Where and when you use is what's supposed to make the game tick.

However, if you argue Shields aren't enough? You'll probably be running Health+Armor in which case it doesn't matter how much Damage Reduction you have.
You can run out of Shields, but you can't run out of Health.

 

But this all besides the point. The point is that Ember is supposed to be "extreme power with the cost of a balancing act".
"Extreme power" can be debatable, but her kit is all about managing your energy and what casts you do.
If you can't upkeep the gauge, you use Fire Blast to lower it. 
With enough buildup of the gauge anyway, you'll have to cast it twice since it'll fill up again instantly.

Energy Regen is still possible when the gauge isn't full, so it's very likely that if you're running out of energy?
A cast of Fire Blast is more useful to you than some Damage Reduction.
For that matter, it only starts increasing the cost if you leave it running.
If you leave your furnace on with no way to vent the built up heat? It's gonna either melt or explode. Probably the latter.
Same idea here.

 

Lastly...
To be blunt? I don't care if you're bad at the game or not. That's not the topic here.
But I DO want to keep some level of integrity on mechanics. That IS part of the topic.

There is a difference between "I'm good at this, so I want it to stay" and "I don't want everything to become Revenant."
Revenant is a STUPID problem right now because they made his Mesmer Skin have a grace period.
It's strong enough now to the point where you don't need his 1, 3 or 4. It's far easier to just recast his 2 and leave it at that.
Complicated mechanics aren't always a bad thing. Sometimes it's how you offset a game's opposition being ungodly easy.
See also: Dynasty Warriors, Bravely Default, etc, etc. Many games that let the player be super powerful, but still has something engaging to do.

Fire Blast is there for a reason.

1 minute ago, Divinehero said:

..condescending much?

I know my audience. I just stopped caring to try honey-coat the words after the upteenth time of it not registering.
"If it didn't work the first dozen times, it probably won't work on another. Change your strategy."

Push comes to shove, I'll see what I can do. No promises though.

2 minutes ago, Divinehero said:

also ur missing the OP's point ENTIRELY.. no other frame has to constantly spend energy to maintain their DR buff for them it's cast and forget...

Don't get me wrong. "Cast and Forget" abilities also kinda annoy me when they're done improperly. (Again, looking at you Revenant)
... and I'm not saying that the Energy Cost isn't "absolutely extreme"-- but rather that it's the "punishment" of forgetting it's there.

It's the way the game tries to encourage you to NOT constantly have a max gauge. Like I said in the longer reply, it's a balancing act.

Just like how Gyre needs kills to upkeep her 3 and 4, Ember needs to make sure she doesn't overflow her own gauge.
Nidus can have stacks that prevent death, but he needs to be alert to avoid losing them quickly or having to build them up just as fast.
Voruna has amazing damage from her 4 and incredible status-spreading via her 2, but if she gets too ahead of herself? It can be end up being wasteful.

You can- of course- work around these weaknesses. That's... kinda what separates a lot of players apart. HOW they deal with these weaknesses.
If you just ignore that, you're basically setting up a community of hive-mind Revenants.
See also: https://www.warframe.com/2023stats, there is a reason Revenant is all the way up at the top.

12 minutes ago, Divinehero said:

so if ur running high enuf content u'll basically explode from dropping that DR for even a bit

If you're running content that's enough to one-shot you? Damage-Reduction will only take you so far.

Yes, it'll save you for a decent while... until they level up a bit more in the Survival and get past THAT even.
Which is why I often say "You can run out of Shields, but you can't run out of Health."
To be blunt, when you're seconds from a one-shot? You're either out of sight or regenerating your shields.

It's also why when I see people using Gloom, I often think "Why are you like this?"
Condemn would've done the job just as well with better results... and it doesn't slow Defense missions down to a crawl.
^{(Only a corridor at worse, but you should be killing what you stun anyway.)}

There is a reason why infinitely scaling stats can only provide so much fun.
... and it's ALSO the reason why Level Cap is a joke if you have an easy form of Invisibility.

[OgreEye]

3 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Yes, I'm well aware.

You also have Shields to work with as well you know, of which also get the benefit of your Damage Reduction.
Even at 50% (the bare minimum of Damage Reduction), it'll still stave off most dangerous attacks for most Steel-Path content.
Especially if you have a few Augur Mods and/or Fast Deflection.

The enemies (so long as they're not immune to stuns/knockdowns) should be stunned long enough with a Fire Blast to get some breathing room.
It's not prefect mind you, that's where the player's intuition is supposed to come into play. Where and when you use is what's supposed to make the game tick.

However, if you argue Shields aren't enough? You'll probably be running Health+Armor in which case it doesn't matter how much Damage Reduction you have.
You can run out of Shields, but you can't run out of Health.

 

But this all besides the point. The point is that Ember is supposed to be "extreme power with the cost of a balancing act".
"Extreme power" can be debatable, but her kit is all about managing your energy and what casts you do.
If you can't upkeep the gauge, you use Fire Blast to lower it. 
With enough buildup of the gauge anyway, you'll have to cast it twice since it'll fill up again instantly.

Energy Regen is still possible when the gauge isn't full, so it's very likely that if you're running out of energy?
A cast of Fire Blast is more useful to you than some Damage Reduction.
For that matter, it only starts increasing the cost if you leave it running.
If you leave your furnace on with no way to vent the built up heat? It's gonna either melt or explode. Probably the latter.
Same idea here.

 

Lastly...
To be blunt? I don't care if you're bad at the game or not. That's not the topic here.
But I DO want to keep some level of integrity on mechanics. That IS part of the topic.

There is a difference between "I'm good at this, so I want it to stay" and "I don't want everything to become Revenant."
Revenant is a STUPID problem right now because they made his Mesmer Skin have a grace period.
It's strong enough now to the point where you don't need his 1, 3 or 4. It's far easier to just recast his 2 and leave it at that.
Complicated mechanics aren't always a bad thing. Sometimes it's how you offset a game's opposition being ungodly easy.
See also: Dynasty Warriors, Bravely Default, etc, etc. Many games that let the player be super powerful, but still has something engaging to do.

Fire Blast is there for a reason.

I know my audience. I just stopped caring to try honey-coat the words after the upteenth time of it not registering.
"If it didn't work the first dozen times, it probably won't work on another. Change your strategy."

Push comes to shove, I'll see what I can do. No promises though.

Don't get me wrong. "Cast and Forget" abilities also kinda annoy me when they're done improperly. (Again, looking at you Revenant)
... and I'm not saying that the Energy Cost isn't "absolutely extreme"-- but rather that it's the "punishment" of forgetting it's there.

It's the way the game tries to encourage you to NOT constantly have a max gauge. Like I said in the longer reply, it's a balancing act.

Just like how Gyre needs kills to upkeep her 3 and 4, Ember needs to make sure she doesn't overflow her own gauge.
Nidus can have stacks that prevent death, but he needs to be alert to avoid losing them quickly or having to build them up just as fast.
Voruna has amazing damage from her 4 and incredible status-spreading via her 2, but if she gets too ahead of herself? It can be end up being wasteful.

You can- of course- work around these weaknesses. That's... kinda what separates a lot of players apart. HOW they deal with these weaknesses.
If you just ignore that, you're basically setting up a community of hive-mind Revenants.
See also: https://www.warframe.com/2023stats, there is a reason Revenant is all the way up at the top.

If you're running content that's enough to one-shot you? Damage-Reduction will only take you so far.

Yes, it'll save you for a decent while... until they level up a bit more in the Survival and get past THAT even.
Which is why I often say "You can run out of Shields, but you can't run out of Health."
To be blunt, when you're seconds from a one-shot? You're either out of sight or regenerating your shields.

It's also why when I see people using Gloom, I often think "Why are you like this?"
Condemn would've done the job just as well with better results... and it doesn't slow Defense missions down to a crawl.
^{(Only a corridor at worse, but you should be killing what you stun anyway.)}

There is a reason why infinitely scaling stats can only provide so much fun.
... and it's ALSO the reason why Level Cap is a joke if you have an easy form of Invisibility.

thing is, at 50% heat, I Have a whole 70% DR; that cuts my EHP down to 1/3 of what it was, and there's a very big window (probably about 30minutes to 2 hours) in a run where that's very important

[Binket_]

9 minutes ago, OgreEye said:

that cuts my EHP down to 1/3 of what it was

"EHP" is more of a hypothetical than a concrete stat. A concept to help visualize how much durability you have.
Simply because such changes would fluctuate on a dime. So much as moving out of a Trinity's line of sight technically changes "EHP".

9 minutes ago, OgreEye said:

and there's a very big window (probably about 30minutes to 2 hours) in a run where that's very important

Again, if you're going that far? Neither Armor nor Health will be of service to you.
Shields will offset the instant-death, but it won't be enough on it's own.

Sadly, abusing I-Frames is really your best bet when it comes to content where a stray bullet can kill you.
... that or being invisible enough to never get hit at all.
^{I didn't like the idea of Steel Path for this very reason. I'd rather just get better and more interesting enemies than just slapping a +100 Level and durability modifier on them.}

I run a lot of Volt. I don't use his 4 as I subsume over it. _{(I prefer using his 1 for quick stuns and Shock Trooper. Leaving shields to other aspects of my kit.)}
I know what frail is, I also know how to work around it.
I also use Trinity, Styanax, Nova-- hell, it'd be easier to list the Warframes I don't use.

There is only so much defenses can do in this game. How you use it is up to you though.

Edited February 27 by Binket_
Sent it early by accident, finished it with an edit.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Honestly, I was there for the change to Immolation and... at the time we didn't actually have the Shield Gating meta that we do, where the additional DR granted by Immolation actually mattered as much as the meta of 'strip all the armour off and kill them before they kill you'.

Players using Ember didn't stay at 90% DR because there wasn't a need to.

That said, the ramping Energy cost is, to me, far too high of a cost for maintaining this effect.

Even for the fact that being at full Immolation meter also affects all her other abilities in terms of damage and effectiveness, it's just... too much of a shift to go from 'costs no energy' to 'costs all the energy' for an extra 1% of the meter.

Let's consider the point here: Ember's other abilities just aren't as effective as DE think they are. We need a bit of the Pablo touch on this frame just to tweak some of the effects.

Look at other frames recently, Grendel having his energy drain removed and being given one of the best self-sustain abilities in the game, Mirage having her fiddly light/dark mechanic that didn't make sense turned into a toggle (and the recent DevShort confirmed that the damage is not being nerfed, it's staying as the current multiplicative format) so that we don't have to go stand in a specific portion of the map just to get the effects at a semi-decent value.

All of the fiddly and self-inhibiting functions are gradually being reworked into smoother and more functional ones.

So let Ember have an Energy Drain when she hits max Immolation, that's fine, but why ramp it up? We can maintain a high Drain with efficiency and duration, or with Augments and Arcanes. We can't maintain All The Drain.

[Binket_]

10 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Honestly, I was there for the change to Immolation and... at the time we didn't actually have the Shield Gating meta that we do, where the additional DR granted by Immolation actually mattered as much as the meta of 'strip all the armour off and kill them before they kill you'.

Yeah, the game was a whole different beast back than, for better or for worse.
It did make sense at the time and still makes some sense today.
Shield-Gating helped diversify Warframe at the cost of the importance that Supports had entirely.

I do think that the Damage Reduction affecting shields DOES help, but it cannot be stressed enough how Shields are extremely powerful now.

13 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Ember's other abilities just aren't as effective as DE think they are.

That I can agree with however.

• Fireball (before or after rework) is simply just a "whatever" ability.
  • Volt's Shock I feel gets the same sentiment, but it's chaining effect works better as a "quick stun using Electric procs" rather than a damage-dealer.
  • Fireball suffers from too little damage for something with projectile time and a very small area it affects.
  • I've only used this ability for the purpose of the Fireball Frenzy augment. Which can be INCREDIBLY powerful if you use her passive right.
• Fire Blast- though it has it's use- is rather low on the damage and the knockback it causes can be used well... but it often gets in the way.
  • The Damage is rather poor and the Armor Strip is low comparative to other abilities.
  • Even as a subsume, it's high energy cost and low effect makes it rarely worth using.
• Inferno might need to be a bit more lax on the gauge filling up.
• Immolation itself tends to be more akin to a typical passive than an actual ability.
  • I'd like a hold-cast function while it's active for some additional "something" to make it mean more myself, but that's merely throwing ideas out there.

Now, that being said? I think the most that needs to be done here is just some minor tweaks. No major overhaul or anything of that sort.

• Simply making Fireball travel faster (nearly instant would be nice) would be perfectly fine.
• Fire Blast can have boost damage on the heat proc itself, with higher amounts of the gauge giving higher output of course.
  • Also make it's Armor-Strip consistent to a strict flat value on hit. Lower the initial unmodded value to compensate if balance is an issue.
• Immolation caps the speed of the gauge at a certain point. I would be unsure on a good value without testing it further, but 6% sounds like a good start.
  • This also fixes my concern with Inferno to some degree.

There's always room for improvement on any Warframe or Weapon though.
So most of what I'm saying here is just small tweaks to keep things polished.

[Waeleto]

The answer is very simple, it's a very outdated mechanic and it should be removed 🤷‍♂️

[Okaazkul]

Le 27/02/2024 à 19:50, OgreEye a dit :

Yeah it removes 50% heat. You know, the stuff you need to keep your DR up?

If you have casted enought time your ult, when you cast the 3 to decrease your Immolation, it will/should go back very quickly to 90% DR, and the energy drain will be reduced to the original value. So spamming her ult and casting from time to time her 3 is the most optimal to keep up her DR. I personally play her with Adaptation, Archon Vitality, a blue archon shard for armor, the augment for her 4 and 3 to have energy and healing and 160% power efficiency. I have only problem with energy when I forgot to look at my energy even when I only have 300 max energy with my build.

Edited February 29 by Okaazkul