FORCED loadout "randomizer" must go

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

47 minutes ago, NeDesitVirtus said:

You mean the random (non meta) sticks and stones you haven't put time into? 

Yep, you got that right. Sticks and stones that I haven't put time and resources into because a lot of them are mastery fodder, thanks to lack of balance among them. I've ranked them up to 30 and either left to gather dust or sold.

And I have no interest in using them either, nor putting time and resources into them because it's still gonna be JUST for this one week's rotation, JUST for this one mission. Sounds like a waste to me.

41 minutes ago, NeDesitVirtus said:

*Equinox - Terrify subsume makes her a Steel Path Nuke

*(Kuva) Kohm & Aeolak - Both can do surprisingly well if you invest forma and build for faction. Rivens are cheap too. 

*Atomos (Incarnon) my only decent weapon this week and heat/corrosive shredded the Murmer. Took some effort for the voidrigs. 

*Masseter / Azothane / Ruvox - Just don't melee. 

*Sentinel - Diriga or Dethcube for their augments. 

*Gear wheel - Crew mate, Specters are helpful. 

*Focus School - Zenurik

Ok. So? You enjoy using that stuff and you've put time and forma into it all - good on you, I'm glad!

Thing is tho... None of these things are part of my multiple go-to builds, of multiple frames and various weapons. And I have no interest in investing time or forma into any of these things just becuase this week's rotation forces me to. Because I still won't be using these outside of this ONE specific week's EDA run. You know? And imagine buying rivens for those OR thinking that Rivens are a saving grace for underperforming weapons... Ugh. No. That's the literal definition of a waste of plat.

Edited April 15 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[Nelsconey]

10 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

New week. New run. New nonsense.

• Chroma-Dagath-Revenant: some might say "Rev is god-roll", I'll say "I don't use Rev because I find him boring".
• Battacor-Convectrix-Afentis: good joke
• Zylok-Viper-Hystrix: another good joke
• Cassowar-Atterax-Tipedo: top tier humor
• Self-damage on using abilities. How original.
• 500% shield recharge delay. Good luck with no shields 99% of the time again.
• Health-orb pick-ups do not heal. Nice, no more Equilibrium energy regen either, so gutting a whole lot of builds on many frames.
• Ability duration reduced by 75%. Nice, another "gutting 90% of the builds" type of modifier. Or rather taking away all the power we're supposed to have.
• Exterminate-Mirror Def-Disruption
• Mirror Def objective constantly takes damage on its own... Wow. How awesome. All while you're also being chased by "slow-moving"(aka sprinting at hyper-speed) Liminus draining HP and energy of yours. In the same mode, yup.

Remove gear randomizer and let us use what we want against this nonsense.

REV

Convectrix- Slash Monster with augment

Zylok - If you have augment mod thing+ incarnon

Tipedo- this is one of the best staves in the game

 

Complaining about these doesn't help your argument.  

This is a GOD Tier set up.   

Edited April 15 by Nelsconey

[sh0shin]

What's funny is that they seem to have gotten this right before with Sorties, Arbis, and Archons. You get bonuses in terms of Health and Damage for picking one frame and one of each weapon slot.

I will note that there are fewer Primaries than Melees, and fewer Secondaries than Primaries, as well as far fewer Warframes than Secondaries...so a 3/3/3 random loadout isn't necessarily evenly weighted. Though, you also can't predict whether or not a player even has proportional ratios of weapons and frames.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

12 minutes ago, Nelsconey said:

REV

Convectrix- Slash Monster with augment

Zylok - If you have augment mod thing+ incarnon

Tipedo- this is one of the best staves in the game

 

Complaining about these doesn't help your argument.  

This is a GOD Tier set up.   

Maybe it is. For you. Because you like using this stuff. 

But it's not for me, as I do not use any of these things in any of my many setups of warframe/weapon combinations. I have no interest in using any of these things.

Forcing me to use some stuff that I have no interest in order to get the reward, instead of my own desired gear, is an anti-fun mechanic, which goes against everything that the rest of the game stands for - using anything you like, in any mode and picking the "right tool for the job".

 

P.s. Slash/bleeds or viral aren't good against enemies in the Entrati labs tho... So no point in having a "slash monster" Convectrix, if it will not perform well against these enemies. Just saying. All while staves "class" of melees aren't even remotely close to being good even among melees.

Edited April 15 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[sh0shin]

Meh, I used Convectrix and it was fine. Slash and Viral are resisted, sure, but Slash still ignores armor and Viral still amps damage...so...just stack it up.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

5 minutes ago, sh0shin said:

Meh, I used Convectrix and it was fine. Slash and Viral are resisted, sure, but Slash still ignores armor and Viral still amps damage...so...just stack it up.

I'm glad it worked out for you.

[NeDesitVirtus]

27 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

I'm glad it worked out for you.

So did I get it correctly you're Legendary Rank 4? Is that, please excuse my question, that to say you leveled everything once, throw it away, and only wish to use a a handful (let's say more than 4) frames and weapons?

You see, I do see some Legendaries like this in the wild...the LR4 with relatively low in-game hours and so it seems maybe they simply rushed Mastery for its own sake and dumped the weapons and frames they didn't like.

On the other hand I routinely discuss old skool things with players who have 4-8k hours who have built and used nearly all the weapons when they were actually very good in their time and some still are. 

I guess what I'm trying to understand is why would one show they've got 732/732 (4 ranks above True Master) if one would refuse to use any of those "mastered" weapons except a handful choice weapons and/or frames? 

And, I understand the complaints of newer players with this game mode for sure but I am confounded as to why someone who supposedly has completed the crafting of all in-game items to be so obstinate as to not use them for what they are - merely tools to accomplish a task. Maybe not optimal but nonetheless mostly serviceable. Therein lies the challenge - adapt and overcome - as a team no less. 

I mean, in full transparency, I do not like Kahl missions and that 15 min modifier for 15 stock, Kaithe races in Duviri to advance to the next stage, Archwing missions in general, but let's just say there's reward incentive for using them in a mission, story, or quest. Of course I'd use them and I wouldn't demand that it be changed to suit my preferences. I'd simply get better at those areas and maybe appreciate the opportunity to explore my skill set with them in the process.

So while I partially understand and even empathize with your position and reasoning, I also disagree with the idea that a "True Master"  refuse to use the various tools they've "mastered" even if those things aren't to their preference or quite possibly no longer in their inventory. It kind sets a slightly poor example for newer players...

But maybe I'm completely off base and if so, my apologies. 

[Nelsconey]

23 minutes ago, NeDesitVirtus said:

So did I get it correctly you're Legendary Rank 4? Is that, please excuse my question, that to say you leveled everything once, throw it away, and only wish to use a a handful (let's say more than 4) frames and weapons?

You see, I do see some Legendaries like this in the wild...the LR4 with relatively low in-game hours and so it seems maybe they simply rushed Mastery for its own sake and dumped the weapons and frames they didn't like.

On the other hand I routinely discuss old skool things with players who have 4-8k hours who have built and used nearly all the weapons when they were actually very good in their time and some still are. 

I guess what I'm trying to understand is why would one show they've got 732/732 (4 ranks above True Master) if one would refuse to use any of those "mastered" weapons except a handful choice weapons and/or frames? 

And, I understand the complaints of newer players with this game mode for sure but I am confounded as to why someone who supposedly has completed the crafting of all in-game items to be so obstinate as to not use them for what they are - merely tools to accomplish a task. Maybe not optimal but nonetheless mostly serviceable. Therein lies the challenge - adapt and overcome - as a team no less. 

I mean, in full transparency, I do not like Kahl missions and that 15 min modifier for 15 stock, Kaithe races in Duviri to advance to the next stage, Archwing missions in general, but let's just say there's reward incentive for using them in a mission, story, or quest. Of course I'd use them and I wouldn't demand that it be changed to suit my preferences. I'd simply get better at those areas and maybe appreciate the opportunity to explore my skill set with them in the process.

So while I partially understand and even empathize with your position and reasoning, I also disagree with the idea that a "True Master"  refuse to use the various tools they've "mastered" even if those things aren't to their preference or quite possibly no longer in their inventory. It kind sets a slightly poor example for newer players...

But maybe I'm completely off base and if so, my apologies. 

[NOsPL]

 

2 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Maybe it is. For you. Because you like using this stuff. 

But it's not for me, as I do not use any of these things in any of my many setups of warframe/weapon combinations. I have no interest in using any of these things.

Forcing me to use some stuff that I have no interest in order to get the reward, instead of my own desired gear, is an anti-fun mechanic, which goes against everything that the rest of the game stands for - using anything you like, in any mode and picking the "right tool for the job".

I have a question for you: if DE allow to get all 5 rewards ignoring restricted loadout, BUT people who use restricted loadout get 7 rewards, would you still be mad about it?

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

1 hour ago, NeDesitVirtus said:

So did I get it correctly you're Legendary Rank 4? Is that, please excuse my question, that to say you leveled everything once, throw it away, and only wish to use a a handful (let's say more than 4) frames and weapons?

You see, I do see some Legendaries like this in the wild...the LR4 with relatively low in-game hours and so it seems maybe they simply rushed Mastery for its own sake and dumped the weapons and frames they didn't like.

On the other hand I routinely discuss old skool things with players who have 4-8k hours who have built and used nearly all the weapons when they were actually very good in their time and some still are. 

I guess what I'm trying to understand is why would one show they've got 732/732 (4 ranks above True Master) if one would refuse to use any of those "mastered" weapons except a handful choice weapons and/or frames? 

And, I understand the complaints of newer players with this game mode for sure but I am confounded as to why someone who supposedly has completed the crafting of all in-game items to be so obstinate as to not use them for what they are - merely tools to accomplish a task. Maybe not optimal but nonetheless mostly serviceable. Therein lies the challenge - adapt and overcome - as a team no less. 

I mean, in full transparency, I do not like Kahl missions and that 15 min modifier for 15 stock, Kaithe races in Duviri to advance to the next stage, Archwing missions in general, but let's just say there's reward incentive for using them in a mission, story, or quest. Of course I'd use them and I wouldn't demand that it be changed to suit my preferences. I'd simply get better at those areas and maybe appreciate the opportunity to explore my skill set with them in the process.

So while I partially understand and even empathize with your position and reasoning, I also disagree with the idea that a "True Master"  refuse to use the various tools they've "mastered" even if those things aren't to their preference or quite possibly no longer in their inventory. It kind sets a slightly poor example for newer players...

But maybe I'm completely off base and if so, my apologies. 

I have over 4k in the game, if that's what you're asking. (Upd: 4398h in Steam version atm + a couple of hundreds more pre-steam, in the launcher) I've been here from the very beginning, with pauses here and there over the years (as any person should, for their mental health, ya know?). I've been through ups and downs of Warframe and DE.

 

And yes. I consider gear radnomization being a bad mechanic. Especially if it locks out part of the reward for it.

 

Warframe is all about "power fantasy". DE's words, Rebecca's words. Not mine. It also has a whole variety of gear to choose from and use "best in slot" for the job AND - on top of that - the stuff that you like most, if multiple such choices available.

Want some examples/explanations? Ok, sure.

• Revenant vs Wisp. Both "meta unkillable top tier" warframes, common choices among many players and constantly in the spotlight - easily both being in the S+ tier, hands down. If I'm given the choice in the randomizer to go for EITHER Revenant OR Wisp - I'd go for Wisp. Why? Because I enjoy playing her more than Revenant. I put effort into her - formas, perfected the build towards my playstyle, archon shards, learned all the intricacies and little details/"hidden mechanics" of this warframe in much more detail than I did with Revenant. I'm also a female gamer, so it simply appeals more to me to play as the female warframes - and it just so happens that some of the more powerful ones are exactly female warframes. Wisp is female, soooo... So if given the choice - I'd go for Wisp over Revenant any day. Especially since they are more-or-less equal in power and I will lose nothing by not picking Revenant;
• Or let's look at Arbitrations/Sorties/Archon Hunts and their "bonus" to certain warframe or weapon. Most of the time, it's like... +300% HP and +100% Ability Str to some warframe choice or something like that. Let's say, randomly, it's Reventant again who gets said bonus. But Wisp does not. Guess what? I'll still choose Wisp out of these two. The bonus isn't substantial or game-breaking enough for me to tip the scales towards picking Revenant instead of my own preferred Wisp. Nor am I sacrificing any reward, if I'm going for Wisp over Reventant;
• Let's say I need to do a fast mission - a capture, for example. I look at my pre-made gear sets and here's what I see: a) Wisp with her speed motes, giving me "out of the box" speed bonus of 80-something%; b) Zephyr with her augment and with my build, giivng 95% run speed bonus; c) Titania in her Razorwing mode with augment, achieving crazy speeds; d) Gauss... well, just being Gauss, no need to explain anything here. Or I could just... don't rush it. And use any other frame from my collection. I can use Voruna, who is simply fun to use, powerful AND even has a speed boost in her stealth too, even if not as strong as the others. Or I could go for Nezha, who also has some solid speed on his end. Or I could go Volt... even tho I don't like using Volt, but there's still an option to go for Volt. Or I could go for any other frame on the list too. I always have a choice. Whatever I feel like doing now. Be it "best tool in slot" aka the fastest to get to the target... or just pick a slower Loki, but avoid combat through stealth, one-shot the capture target, grab and leave. I can do whatever I want, with the arsenal given to me.
• Or let's say there's a survival Steel Path daily mission thingy, for the Steel Essence, right? Sure, I could go for Khora. Just dome it up(with augment) and whip it out(with augment), always full life support and insane damage. Or I could go Nekros, as another good choice for extra life support loot. Or I could go for Mag of mine, who has a neat build with Breach Surge, which armor-strips and nukes enemies in an instant - fast enough for life support to never go down below 80%, as enemies die fast enough to drop enough pods. Or I could go for Zephyr again, hole up in a dead-end and cast my tornados into a corridor, so all enemies just get sucked in and nuked to oblivion - again, giving me enough life support to go through the mission and beyond. And many more options. Really, so many choices to go for!

And I can go on for hours like this, explaining and giving you examples, but I'm sure you should have already noticed a pattern here? Especially since... I've used bold font for the key word?

CHOICE.

In Warframe, in ALL of the modes except Duviri (and now DA/EDA), we always have a choice. A choice of warframe to go for. A choice of weapon to go for. Often combined - especially with those frames that require a "stat-stick"(Gara, Khora, Atlas). Or those that are focused on using specific weapon choices (Yareli and her passive+merulina being dependant on a good choice of secondary, otherwise what's the point). Or those weapons often having some specific mods that contribute to the Warframe's own build - such as 2 of the Augur set mods on your secondary, increasing your survivability, for example... Or Amalgam Barrel Diffusion giving you faster "roll", which not only adds movement speed overall, but helps with survivability if you're using Rolling Guard or playing Limbo, for example. Or Boreal's Contempt set mod for Polearms and it's secondary(set) bonus for lowered dmg when airborn contributing to Titania's survivability. And so on, so forth. 

Warframe - for me, at least - is about crafting your builds to perfection. Finding any and all ways to achieve that ultimate "Power fantasy" of being an unkillable void-power-slinging godlike murder machine.

RNG Gear strips away the choice. It strips away all the results of invested time and effort into carefully crafting all those builds, reading through wikis and other sources, testing what works and what doesn't, stress-testing on all sorts of content - mostly SP by this point, of course. Lots of trial and error, lots of hours, lots of resources, lots of plat even in some cases... All of that is thrown in the dumpster. Choice taken away. And then told "here, use only these three frames and only these 9 weapons OR you don't get the reward". So it makes me ask - why? Why would anyone in their rightful sane mind do it?

 

RNG gear randomizer is not a good mechanic. It takes away an important aspect - choice - but adds nothing to the game except frustration. It's fake, pseudo difficulty. One which is easily avoided in this mode by literally using a Necramech. This week's rotation - I did with randoms, running a Necramech in all three missions. I simply picked the randomizer chosen gear and went to pub matchmaking. Did it on the 2nd run, since on 1st there was a host migration error during the 2nd mission and it all just cancelled out, disbanding the group and throwing me back to the main area.

So yes. I want it gone entirely. And from what I see around this Feedback section... Be it the amount of upvotes on my thread AND the amount of threads discussing similar things... Well, I think the majority of people are of similar opinion. NOT EVERYONE, that is clear. But the majority for sure.

Alternative? A compromise? Sure, can give that to you as well. Keep the randomizer, for those who like it. BUT add an option to not use the randomizer gear - use your own chosen stuff - and then just have some extra modifiers on top instead. So there's again A CHOICE here - either participate in the randomizer and have less negatives... or use your own gear and have more negatives. Either way, both options will get the same rewards. Equal. I'll be down to this compromise. Even though, ideally, I'd want the randomizer removed entirely. But yeah, I'd be okay with this instead.

In the current state though? I'll just keep on doing what I did the first three weeks: take the best possible things out of the stuff I'm being offered... And just use my fully decked out and maxed Necramech in pub matches. If I don't do well - at least randoms will carry me. I refuse to put more effort into it than that into a mode that disrespects my time and effort that I've invested into the game prior to this mode. Time and effort put into creating my own "presets", my own builds, my own gear combinations that I like and enjoy using. And if we'll once again get some modifier that removes operator or prevents the use of Necramech... Well, what can I say - I hope those pubs will carry me when I use this randomizer gear to get the reward.

And lastly... Before any more comparsion to Duviri... Duviri CAN get away with randomizer just fine:

1. It's a fast rotation of just an hour and a half(or something like that?) - if you don't like the current choices, just check back next time;
2. It can be "re-rolled" by just doing one easy round in the circuit and leaving, thus re-rolling your choices;
3. There are Decrees that pile up over time real fast (both regular Duviri and Circuit) and compensate any possible weaknesses in the inferior chocies or turning already strong choices into literal gods;
4. It's a separate "content island", which you go in, complete, get all the rewards(yes, I also mean the SP incarnon adapters on rotation) and almost never touch again - unless you do those Nightwave duviri-related tasks OR need some scales/aggristones for Bile, so you just go in to do some "fishing". And yes, until we get a new bundle of more incarnon adapters into the rotation - it is a content island that you "complete and move on";

DA/EDA has no right to have a randomizer, because it is part of the core Warframe gameplay, as a simple "mission type" like Sortie/Archon Hunt "mission trio", which simply resets every week endlessly. And if you didn't do it - you're already missing out on the rewards that could have been handed out to you that particular week(or weeks, if multiple) that you skipped. And that's were we're already venturing into that "tickling the FOMO", which might make some people to buy the gear they are missing(for plat, most likely), buy forma bundles(for plat) to bring that gear up to speed, possibly even buy mods they are missing in the build(also for plat, which they first have to get via trading or buying with IRL money). Sure, it's a small percentage of people who would do it... but believe me, I've played F2P microtransaction-filled games for a very long time - there will be people who fall prey to this FOMO feeling, even if it's so miniscule.

So yeah. I stand by my point. RNG gear randomizer must go from DA/EDA mode. OR at least go for the compromise I've suggested above. And I'll keep on talking about it until something is done - either actual changes that a lot of people want(not just me, but a lot in this Feedback section) OR the official acknowledgement/statement by DE that no changes will be made.

34 minutes ago, NOsPL said:

 

I have a question for you: if DE allow to get all 5 rewards ignoring restricted loadout, BUT people who use restricted loadout get 7 rewards, would you still be mad about it?

I'd rather have the gear randomizer removed entirely OR go for a compromise that I've described above, instead of some mental gymnastics like you're trying to do here.

Edited April 15 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[Drachnyn]

vor 36 Minuten schrieb _Kit_Kat_Cat_:

So yes. I want it gone entirely. And from what I see around this Feedback section... Be it the amount of upvotes on my thread AND the amount of threads discussing similar things... Well, I think the majority of people are of similar opinion. NOT EVERYONE, that is clear. But the majority for sure.

We'll see if that's true if DE does the equivalent of moving archon shards away from chipper here I guess.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

11 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

We'll see if that's true if DE does the equivalent of moving archon shards away from chipper here I guess.

I just hope it won't take them a year(or more) to apply changes to this mode.

[NeDesitVirtus]

45 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

You said, "I have over 4k in the game, if that's what you're asking. (Upd: 4398h in Steam version atm + a couple of hundreds more pre-steam, in the launcher) I've been here from the very beginning, with pauses here and there over the years (as any person should, for their mental health, ya know?). I've been through ups and downs of Warframe and DE.

Want some examples/explanations? Ok, sure.

•  If I'm given the choice in the randomizer to go for EITHER Revenant OR Wisp - I'd go for Wisp. Why? Because I enjoy playing her more than Revenant. I put effort into her - formas, perfected the build towards my playstyle, archon shards, learned all the intricacies and little details/"hidden mechanics" of this warframe in much more detail than I did with Revenant. I'm also a female gamer, so it simply appeals more to me to play as the female warframes - and it just so happens that some of the more powerful ones are exactly female warframes. Wisp is female, soooo... So if given the choice - I'd go for Wisp over Revenant any day. Especially since they are more-or-less equal in power and I will lose nothing by not picking Revenant;
• I'll still choose Wisp out of these two. The bonus isn't substantial or game-breaking enough for me to tip the scales towards picking Revenant instead of my own preferred Wisp. Nor am I sacrificing any reward, if I'm going for Wisp over Reventant;
• Let's say I need to do a fast mission - a capture, for example. I look at my pre-made gear sets and here's what I see: a) Wisp with her speed motes, giving me "out of the box" speed bonus of 80-something%; b) Zephyr with her augment and with my build, giivng 95% run speed bonus; c) Titania in her Razorwing mode with augment, achieving crazy speeds; d) Gauss... well, just being Gauss, no need to explain anything here. Or I could just... don't rush it. And use any other frame from my collection. I can use Voruna, who is simply fun to use, powerful AND even has a speed boost in her stealth too, even if not as strong as the others. Or I could go for Nezha, who also has some solid speed on his end. Or I could go Volt... even tho I don't like using Volt, but there's still an option to go for Volt. Or I could go for any other frame on the list too. I always have a choice. Whatever I feel like doing now. Be it "best tool in slot" aka the fastest to get to the target... or just pick a slower Loki, but avoid combat through stealth, one-shot the capture target, grab and leave. I can do whatever I want, with the arsenal given to me.
• Or let's say there's a survival Steel Path daily mission thingy, for the Steel Essence, right? Sure, I could go for Khora. Just dome it up(with augment) and whip it out(with augment), always full life support and insane damage. Or I could go Nekros, as another good choice for extra life support loot. Or I could go for Mag of mine, who has a neat build with Breach Surge, which armor-strips and nukes enemies in an instant - fast enough for life support to never go down below 80%, as enemies die fast enough to drop enough pods. Or I could go for Zephyr again, hole up in a dead-end and cast my tornados into a corridor, so all enemies just get sucked in and nuked to oblivion - again, giving me enough life support to go through the mission and beyond. Really, so many choices to go for.

And I can go on for hours like this, explaining and giving you examples, but I'm sure you should have already noticed a pattern here? Especially since... I've used bold font for the key word CHOICE."

In Warframe, in ALL of the modes except Duviri (and now DA/EDA), we always have a choice. A choice of warframe to go for. A choice of weapon to go for. Often combined - especially with those frames that require a "stat-stick"(Gara, Khora, Atlas). Or those that are focused on using specific weapon choices (Yareli and her passive+merulina being dependant on a good choice of secondary, otherwise what's the point). Or those weapons often having some specific mods that contribute to the Warframe's own build - such as 2 of the Augur set mods on your secondary, increasing your survivability, for example... Or Amalgam Barrel Diffusion giving you faster "roll", which not only adds movement speed overall, but helps with survivability if you're using Rolling Guard or playing Limbo, for example. Or Boreal's Contempt set mod for Polearms and it's secondary(set) bonus for lowered dmg when airborn contributing to Titania's survivability. And so on, so forth. 

Warframe - for me, at least - is about crafting your builds to perfection. Finding any and all ways to achieve that ultimate "Power fantasy" of being an unkillable void-power-slinging godlike murder machine.

RNG Gear strips away the choice. It strips away all the results of invested time and effort into carefully crafting all those builds, reading through wikis and other sources, testing what works and what doesn't, stress-testing on all sorts of content - mostly SP by this point, of course. Lots of trial and error, lots of hours, lots of resources, lots of plat even in some cases... All of that is thrown in the dumpster. Choice taken away. And then told "here, use only these three frames and only these 9 weapons OR you don't get the reward". So it makes me ask - why? Why would anyone in their rightful sane mind do it?

 

RNG gear randomizer is not a good mechanic. It takes away an important aspect - choice...So yes. I want it gone entirely. And from what I see around this Feedback section... Be it the amount of upvotes on my thread AND the amount of threads discussing similar things... Well, I think the majority of people are of similar opinion. NOT EVERYONE, that is clear. But the majority for sure.

Alternative? A compromise? Sure, can give that to you as well. Keep the randomizer, for those who like it. BUT add an option to not use the randomizer gear - use your own chosen stuff - and then just have some extra modifiers on top instead. So there's again A CHOICE here - either participate in the randomizer and have less negatives... or use your own gear and have more negatives. I'll be down to this compromise. Even though, ideally, I'd want the randomizer removed entirely. But yeah, I'd be okay with this instead.

In the current state though? I'll just keep on doing what I did the first three weeks: take the best possible things out of the stuff I'm being offered... And just use my fully decked out and maxed Necramech in pub matches. If I don't do well - at least randoms will carry me. I refuse to put more effort into it than that. And if we'll once again get some modifier that removes operator or prevents the use of Necramech... Well, what can I say - I hope those pubs will carry me when I use this randomizer gear to get the reward.

DA/EDA has no right to have a randomizer, because it is part of the core Warframe gameplay, as a simple "mission type" like Sortie/Archon Hunt "mission trio", which simply resets every week endlessly. And if you didn't do it - you're already missing out on the rewards that could have been handed out to you that particular week(or weeks, if multiple) that you skipped. And that's were we're already venturing into that "tickling the FOMO", which might make some people to buy the gear they are missing(for plat, most likely), buy forma bundles(for plat) to bring that gear up to speed, possibly even buy mods they are missing in the build(also for plat, which they first have to get via trading or buying with IRL money). Sure, it's a small percentage of people who would do it... but believe me, I've played F2P microtransaction-filled games for a very long time - there will be people who fall prey to this FOMO feeling, even if it's so miniscule.

So yeah. I stand by my point. RNG gear randomizer must go from DA/EDA mode. OR at least go for the compromise I've suggested above. And I'll keep on talking about it until something is done - either actual changes that a lot of people want(not just me, but a lot in this Feedback section) OR the official acknowledgement/statement by DE that no changes will be made.

I'd rather have the gear randomizer removed entirely OR go for a compromise that I've described above, instead of some mental gymnastics like you're trying to do here."

I read and fully empathize with your position and concerns and likewise your preferences based on your candid reply. Although I still feel that randomization isn

t a bad thing but compels players to move outside of their comfort zone in content that puts their ability to mod and prepare correctly into practice, I will say of all the replies and comments I've read, yours does make quite a bit of sense to include your last couple of paragraphs. That is to say, there are ways to farm plat and not spend real life money on this content and that should be the norm, but, it takes time to build up to that level of trading. I don't know if what I'm describing is mental gymnastics, rather it was really an earnest effort to try to understand another point of view, however, in the context of modding and synergizing available options it can indeed be a task, especially for rather dismal options. 

Nonetheless, I do stand by the assertion as other have said that you do get one "freebee" for Elite mode if you choose to do the Deep Archimedia first, and this feels to be an intentional adjustment on DE's part to give players some breathing room for either a frame, a weapon, or to absolve themselves of an imposed deficit. 

So, in sum, thank you again for your candid, authentic and detailed response. We may not completely agree but it helps me to understand. And, I'd be happy to see you in game. I am sure you are a rockstar in your own right. Be well Tenno. 

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

57 minutes ago, NeDesitVirtus said:

I read and fully empathize with your position and concerns and likewise your preferences based on your candid reply. Although I still feel that randomization isn

t a bad thing but compels players to move outside of their comfort zone in content that puts their ability to mod and prepare correctly into practice, I will say of all the replies and comments I've read, yours does make quite a bit of sense to include your last couple of paragraphs. That is to say, there are ways to farm plat and not spend real life money on this content and that should be the norm, but, it takes time to build up to that level of trading. I don't know if what I'm describing is mental gymnastics, rather it was really an earnest effort to try to understand another point of view, however, in the context of modding and synergizing available options it can indeed be a task, especially for rather dismal options. 

Nonetheless, I do stand by the assertion as other have said that you do get one "freebee" for Elite mode if you choose to do the Deep Archimedia first, and this feels to be an intentional adjustment on DE's part to give players some breathing room for either a frame, a weapon, or to absolve themselves of an imposed deficit. 

So, in sum, thank you again for your candid, authentic and detailed response. We may not completely agree but it helps me to understand. And, I'd be happy to see you in game. I am sure you are a rockstar in your own right. Be well Tenno. 

First of all, I don't think of myself as a "rockstar", nor I ever want to be. But thanks, I guess? o.o

Second, the problem is that... It could have been a solid "rogue-lite mode". Better than Duviri ever was. But the core problem is that... You have to put thought and effort into creating a proper and solid game mode like that. Just like into creating an actual rogue-lite GAME from ground up - because it's not "all randomized all the time", it's always all very well thought-out and balanced, with clear rules, boundaries, "what ifs" and possible scenarios in the developers' minds. Every single weekly "challenge" had to be hand-crafted to be difficult, but doable. With each piece of gear - be it one locked-in preset OR a choice from multiple - specifically hand-picked and specifically modded to provide a challenge that is equal for everyone. Challenge where your skills are tested - movement, aim, reflexes, map knowledge, weak spot knowledge on the enemies, etc. It's not supposed to be a "test" how much gear you have/don't have, how good it is modded or not, how much forma you've put into it or not and how lucky you are with the randomizer to get a good roll of gear over bad gear. It also should have had every single modifier - be it to us or the enemies - also specifically "hand-crafted" each week and balanced to work well together with others, then either hand-picked every week or at least given rules to not be rolled together with this or that if they contradict each other in any way. It can be fun, if the goal is to provide fun, while also providing a challenge. A hand-crafted experience that tests our SKILL, not our arsenal. Kinda like... Those mastery tests, in a way. You know? Just with a hand-picked and specifically modded gear and modifiers instead of us being allowed to "cheeze" through those mastery tests with any stuff. Test of SKILL, not arsenal. Then it could have worked.

And that's if DE even goes up that path of a "special challenge game mode" in the first place... Even though Warframe is not even a game of that type at the core. Warframe is not a "rogue-lite" game. Not a game with a core that is all built from ground up, from the beginning, with these ideas and mechanics of challenges in mind, where every single run might be different from the other. Random gear/character/skills, but in very clear, specific and balanced boundaries. Random map, with random enemy spawns, random everything... But still very much hand-crafted and with thought put behind everything. Because that's the core of those games. Warframe is NOT that kind of game though. Warframe is a looter shooter power fantasy pew pew game. Very different.

And DA/EDA does not feel like there was a lot of thought put behind it either. It feels like a "cheap way out". It feels like that "random S#&$ go" meme. All gear thrown into the randomizer slot machine without ANY thought behind balancing the challenge - some might get lucky to get the top tier meta stuff, others will get a bad roll of the low tier, low mastery fodder stuff that can't compete even if you forma and mod it to hell and back. On top of that, all modifiers are thrown into the bin together, shuffled and get rolled without ANY thought behind balancing or locking them from each other if they conflict in any way - like that last week's combo of "enemies only vulnerable when 15m or closer to them" + "drain energy for each enemy in 10m radius - that's just dumb combo that should not be present together. Clearly, there was no goal to make a fun mode. The goal was just to make A mode that will kinda feel like rogue-lite, but not really... And with as little effort as possible - which is fair, that's how business usually works. And I guess they achieved the desired goal. They did indeed make A mode. A mode that is frustrating and un-fun, all due to how it was implemented. And gear randomizer is the worst of the problems.

And knowing DE - after I've put so much time into this game and stuff around it - I am well aware they are not gonna make it any better, towards making it into an actual "rogue-lite mode" that it can be, if effort is put into it. They won't. Instead, I'm suggesting how to at least salvage the currently existing mode in its current shape, for more people to actually start liking it... or at least stop hating it and stop seeing it as a "weekly chore, in roder to get some rewards". And DE can start by removing the most hated part of it: the complete nonsensical gear randomizer, let us use any gear and still get the full reward. To keep the core Warframe idea of giving you a CHOICE. Because in the current state, 3 frames and 9 weapons out of the WHOLE list of things we can use... It's not a choice. If you don't run the RNG stuff - you sacrifice rewards. And yeah, even this "one slot room for maneuver" is equally dumb too. Like if they KNEW that people would hate it and they made this extra vosfor reward on purpose.

And as a comrpomise to satisfy both sides (the majority who want it removed, like me AND the minorty who claim they "like the randomizer), give us the option of picking more modifiers/negatives for more Research Points, in order to use our own desired gear of the randomized stuff. That way this will be at least less frustrating to play than it is now for the majority of people. This way the mode can be salvaged, with not as much negativity and frustration around it.

Edited April 16 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[DogeUmbra]

look, I had other account just to do syndicates and for fun but this game mode will guarantee 1st slot will always be something you have (warframe, primary, secondary, melee) and if you sell weapons or warframe in 1st slot the result will be random to other warframe or weapon you already have

for example I had Proboscis Cernos in 1st slot(I keep it because of crafting) now I feel bad and sell it, 1st slot will random to other weapon and now it may pops incarnon weapon

 

my main account feel like sh!t for collecting staffs I already feel pain from duviri random and this game mode going to sh!t on me again, why!?

why do I have to be punished for collecting things?

[BeefyScar]

3 hours ago, NeDesitVirtus said:

So did I get it correctly you're Legendary Rank 4? Is that, please excuse my question, that to say you leveled everything once, throw it away, and only wish to use a a handful (let's say more than 4) frames and weapons?

You see, I do see some Legendaries like this in the wild...the LR4 with relatively low in-game hours and so it seems maybe they simply rushed Mastery for its own sake and dumped the weapons and frames they didn't like.

On the other hand I routinely discuss old skool things with players who have 4-8k hours who have built and used nearly all the weapons when they were actually very good in their time and some still are. 

I guess what I'm trying to understand is why would one show they've got 732/732 (4 ranks above True Master) if one would refuse to use any of those "mastered" weapons except a handful choice weapons and/or frames? 

And, I understand the complaints of newer players with this game mode for sure but I am confounded as to why someone who supposedly has completed the crafting of all in-game items to be so obstinate as to not use them for what they are - merely tools to accomplish a task. Maybe not optimal but nonetheless mostly serviceable. Therein lies the challenge - adapt and overcome - as a team no less. 

I mean, in full transparency, I do not like Kahl missions and that 15 min modifier for 15 stock, Kaithe races in Duviri to advance to the next stage, Archwing missions in general, but let's just say there's reward incentive for using them in a mission, story, or quest. Of course I'd use them and I wouldn't demand that it be changed to suit my preferences. I'd simply get better at those areas and maybe appreciate the opportunity to explore my skill set with them in the process.

So while I partially understand and even empathize with your position and reasoning, I also disagree with the idea that a "True Master"  refuse to use the various tools they've "mastered" even if those things aren't to their preference or quite possibly no longer in their inventory. It kind sets a slightly poor example for newer players...

But maybe I'm completely off base and if so, my apologies. 

You are off base and what a passive aggressive post you wrote.

Whether the player is LR4 with every equipment in game or LR4 with 10 equipment in each category should not be game's concern. It never was a forced aspect of the game. So all the players who are impacted by this has the right to react negatively.

Players collect equipment based on what they deem worthy. I'm LR4, I have a lot of weapons but I don't have everything. Even if its prime, I hated how braton prime and pandero prime sounded. So I deleted that.

And lets look at just one category of guns: secondary hitscan automatic dual wield. Very specific right? But even in that specific category, there are: afuris, akzani, akstiletto, kuva twin stubbas, twin grakatas, and twin vipers. You can keep them all, but you can substitute one for another from that list. Theoretically, if you enjoy aksomati prime, you build it for viral slash, you don't have the need to keep the rest. Because even within that category, there is one "best" out of the pack. Or maybe you think clem is the coolest and you have 5 forma'd twin grakatas. And if I tell that twin grakata enjoyer to ditch that and grab akstiletto prime, he got every right to say no.

Also I don't get why you're putting so much emphasis on a simple title of master, but its just a rank title. For the sake of argument, it could have been "warrior" or any other words.

Khal mission, if you don't like it, you can skip it. Yes you lose out 15 stock, but stocks are cumulative. Same with duviri. For decree, you can simply do anything else. Sure it is not skippable if it shows up as the 1/6 requirement, but you cant compare about 3~5min stage to a full weekly lockout.

If this post was about a player disliking void cascade or eidolon hunt, the answer of "don't like it, don't play it" is true. Because you can get all the drops elsewhere. You don't like to play disruption? Then you can play different mission type and still get same relic rewards. The game gives you choices.

And then there's EDA. If the personal modifiers were just way too hard, you make post "hey I can't do this week, how did you do yours?" There you can get some whacky answer but it could be the best solution to that week's EDA. If that is how EDA worked, that's cool and it indirectly gets players to build weapon pools. Sadly this is not how EDA works.

Currently EDA is reward is shared only by Netracell. If you want more of that loot, EDA is the only way. Thus, unlike void cascade or eidolon situation, players cannot disperse toward what they like to play. That also means, as a game, it should have a way to meld variety of players need.

Random loadout is simply random. DE did this in duviri because DE wanted some roguelike idea baked into duviri. Roguelikes do this because they have pretty good weapon balance with couple of OP choices. This creates an okay run for the majority of times while creating once in a while high rolling. This creates replayability. 

A lot of player seem to mistake random loadout as a "challenge". it is not. Because warframe has so many crappy weapons, the baseline of weapon compared to high rolling is heaven and hell difference. Thus this made you think its a challenge. But if random loadout's role was for a challenge, you should not be able to high roll.

The OP and a lot of player here voicing to get random loadout removed isn't saying it because we got S#&$ weapons. It's simply to so we can enjoy EDA as a looter shooter.

If your only argument against removal is that this will drop difficulty, why aren't you complaining about other aspect? gearwheel for archgun, necramech, and no modifier carries?

 

[obiwandandobi2]

Sorry you're not enjoying this mode but have to say this is the best new mode put in this game for a long time. My choices this week weren't exactly great but I made the most of what I had and battled through it. As I said in a previous thread this is a brave new direction for DE to move toward and I applaud them for it.

There is the option to select what what you want from it each week. Sure you won't get all the rewards but that's a decision for you to make. DE has given us the choice in that. Stepping out of your comfort zone is the first step to challenge so I firmly embrace it.

My only hope is that DE don't cave to all the whining about it. You really don't have to choose all the options, the choice is yours. People have been asking for challenge for a long time and they're on the right track to delivering it.

[(PSN)IAMV671]

mehhh

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

57 minutes ago, obiwandandobi2 said:

Sorry you're not enjoying this mode but have to say this is the best new mode put in this game for a long time. My choices this week weren't exactly great but I made the most of what I had and battled through it. As I said in a previous thread this is a brave new direction for DE to move toward and I applaud them for it.

There is the option to select what what you want from it each week. Sure you won't get all the rewards but that's a decision for you to make. DE has given us the choice in that. Stepping out of your comfort zone is the first step to challenge so I firmly embrace it.

My only hope is that DE don't cave to all the whining about it. You really don't have to choose all the options, the choice is yours. People have been asking for challenge for a long time and they're on the right track to delivering it.

"Brave new direction?" "Applauding"? Are you serious? Ok, tell me... Are you a real person or you're a bot? Those words sound like some copy-pasted nonsense from yet another political twitter post.

Going with your own gear is literally not an option. No normal person - who's not a bot - would just willingly abandon rewards. Otherwise playing this mode is absolutely pointless. Sorry, I don't believe you're a real human being.

Randomized gear is NOT a challenge. It's a frustrating and un-fun mechanic.

Edited April 16 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[NeDesitVirtus]

1 hour ago, BeefyScar said:

You are off base and what a passive aggressive post you wrote.

Whether the player is LR4 with every equipment in game or LR4 with 10 equipment in each category should not be game's concern. It never was a forced aspect of the game. So all the players who are impacted by this has the right to react negatively.

Players collect equipment based on what they deem worthy. I'm LR4, I have a lot of weapons but I don't have everything. Even if its prime, I hated how braton prime and pandero prime sounded. So I deleted that.

And lets look at just one category of guns: secondary hitscan automatic dual wield. Very specific right? But even in that specific category, there are: afuris, akzani, akstiletto, kuva twin stubbas, twin grakatas, and twin vipers. You can keep them all, but you can substitute one for another from that list. Theoretically, if you enjoy aksomati prime, you build it for viral slash, you don't have the need to keep the rest. Because even within that category, there is one "best" out of the pack. Or maybe you think clem is the coolest and you have 5 forma'd twin grakatas. And if I tell that twin grakata enjoyer to ditch that and grab akstiletto prime, he got every right to say no.

Also I don't get why you're putting so much emphasis on a simple title of master, but its just a rank title. For the sake of argument, it could have been "warrior" or any other words.

Khal mission, if you don't like it, you can skip it. Yes you lose out 15 stock, but stocks are cumulative. Same with duviri. For decree, you can simply do anything else. Sure it is not skippable if it shows up as the 1/6 requirement, but you cant compare about 3~5min stage to a full weekly lockout.

If this post was about a player disliking void cascade or eidolon hunt, the answer of "don't like it, don't play it" is true. Because you can get all the drops elsewhere. You don't like to play disruption? Then you can play different mission type and still get same relic rewards. The game gives you choices.

And then there's EDA. If the personal modifiers were just way too hard, you make post "hey I can't do this week, how did you do yours?" There you can get some whacky answer but it could be the best solution to that week's EDA. If that is how EDA worked, that's cool and it indirectly gets players to build weapon pools. Sadly this is not how EDA works.

Currently EDA is reward is shared only by Netracell. If you want more of that loot, EDA is the only way. Thus, unlike void cascade or eidolon situation, players cannot disperse toward what they like to play. That also means, as a game, it should have a way to meld variety of players need.

Random loadout is simply random. DE did this in duviri because DE wanted some roguelike idea baked into duviri. Roguelikes do this because they have pretty good weapon balance with couple of OP choices. This creates an okay run for the majority of times while creating once in a while high rolling. This creates replayability. 

A lot of player seem to mistake random loadout as a "challenge". it is not. Because warframe has so many crappy weapons, the baseline of weapon compared to high rolling is heaven and hell difference. Thus this made you think its a challenge. But if random loadout's role was for a challenge, you should not be able to high roll.

The OP and a lot of player here voicing to get random loadout removed isn't saying it because we got S#&$ weapons. It's simply to so we can enjoy EDA as a looter shooter.

If your only argument against removal is that this will drop difficulty, why aren't you complaining about other aspect? gearwheel for archgun, necramech, and no modifier carries?

 

Wow, I'm sorry you felt so triggered, but please try to refrain from projecting. I'm perfectly capable of saying exactly what I mean. 

It is a reality that not all modes will suit all players, and experience and built weapon do matter in DA/EDA so if you don't have them, then unless you build them I guess you're SoL right?

That's the elephant in the room. 

I think the OP and I have come to an understanding, you know the type where you see things from each other's side but agree to disagree? But thank you anyway and good luck. 

[Drachnyn]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb _Kit_Kat_Cat_:

No normal person - who's not a bot - would just willingly abandon rewards.

People do that literally all the time. Why do you think archon shards were taken away from chipper. It was half of the total archon shard income at the time and basically no one did it.

[BeefyScar]

1 hour ago, Drachnyn said:

People do that literally all the time. Why do you think archon shards were taken away from chipper. It was half of the total archon shard income at the time and basically no one did it.

And that tells you players hated khal missions that much. why do you think people disliked it? its because of its limitation. khal mission was fun the first couple of times, but its also exactly the same repeat. And DE just decided it will not be an evergreen aspect of the game. And I think its fantastic decision. Remove/rework what players do not enjoy and not everything has to be on weekly grind list. After all, if the game is not fun, there will be no player retention. 

Plus, chipper only offered regular archon shards. Considering EDA is 3 more chance than usual netracell for tau and legendary melee arcane, player retention on EDA will probably stay high, despite some people disliking it. I hate it but I will do it until there's a substitute for EDA. What DE should look at is what is the % of player doing premade carry swaps. If people are annoyed to the point they're willing to run 45min run TWICE for the sake of getting it done the easy way, it means its not fun.

Edited April 16 by BeefyScar

[Gaxxian]

People seems like really struggle with basic ideas sometimes and are completely missing the point...

Isnt even about having a "God" roll, because Revenant and Convectrix appeared, but more about "I hate playing with those weapons/warframes". The point isnt that you cannot complete EDA with RNG equipment, but that in doing so you have a really bad/boring time.

Ofc, which equipment is "hateable" will change from person to person, but the thing is that sooner or later you will have a bad roll that will make you play with something that you don't desire... and in worst case, since this RNG compounds with more RNG from the debuffs, maybe even you will be efectively a dead weight and you will need to pray that somebody carries you to the end. And thats very fun, too.

[Drachnyn]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb BeefyScar:

why do you think people disliked it?

I dont think there is one single reason for everyone. I hated it because the movement felt absolutely terrible.

vor 26 Minuten schrieb BeefyScar:

khal mission was fun the first couple of times

I disagree. I disliked it in the quest already.

vor 30 Minuten schrieb BeefyScar:

Plus, chipper only offered regular archon shards.

Absolutely still worth it. If you want shards on more than just 2 or 3 frames then you needed to use regular shards aswell and fusing up into tau shards like we can now was always an inevitability.

[BeefyScar]

31 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

I dont think there is one single reason for everyone. I hated it because the movement felt absolutely terrible.

I disagree. I disliked it in the quest already.

Absolutely still worth it. If you want shards on more than just 2 or 3 frames then you needed to use regular shards aswell and fusing up into tau shards like we can now was always an inevitability.

You ran the khal mission even though you disliked it. For some players, the dislike was far greater than the shard's worth. It was a trade off. It's not a subject of willingness.

Thus, driving the point, many player chose to ignore khal mission because they hated it to the point they're chose to give up that shard. The shard fusing is irrelevant to khal mission because it was introduced with the swap to the sanctum. Players did not have this information beforehand, thus the value of a normal shard is just a normal shard without any future potential value to it.