FORCED loadout "randomizer" must go

[Drachnyn]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb BeefyScar:

Players did not have this information beforehand, thus the value of a normal shard is just a normal shard without any future potential value to it.

I think people should have expected this. It was always going to happen.

vor 11 Minuten schrieb BeefyScar:

For some players, the dislike was far greater than the shard's worth. It was a trade off.

I think the person you are disagreeing with is the poster I responded to. Because apparently this trade off is something 'No normal person - who's not a bot - would [do]'. I abandoned kahl after a couple of weeks because playing a mission i hated was not worth the reward even though I considered the reward to be pretty high. It had nothing to do with gear limitations though and everything with movement limitations. A thing that EDA does not do.

[BeefyScar]

5 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

No normal person - who's not a bot - would just willingly abandon rewards. Otherwise playing this mode is absolutely pointless.

 

15 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

I think the person you are disagreeing with is the poster I responded to. Because apparently this trade off is something 'No normal person - who's not a bot - would [do]'. I abandoned kahl after a couple of weeks because playing a mission i hated was not worth the reward even though I considered the reward to be pretty high. It had nothing to do with gear limitations though and everything with movement limitations. A thing that EDA does not do.

No i agree with kit_kat_cat. I run EDA for the loots and purely for the loots. Thus I do it unwillingly.

I'm not sure what your stance is. because when you say:

3 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

People do that literally all the time. Why do you think archon shards were taken away from chipper. It was half of the total archon shard income at the time and basically no one did it.

It infers your stance of people are willingly abandon the rewards.

But you're saying you did not run kahl because you hated it so much, even though the loot was good. Are you perhaps trying to say players skipped out kahl knowingly?

Because "No normal person - who's not a bot - would just willingly abandon rewards" = "players would not happily agree to abandon rewards."

[Drachnyn]

Ah, semantics. My favorite. I'm saying it's entirely normal for people to skip rewarding content because they dont like playing it. This applied to kahl, this applies here. Doing that is normal, it's not bot behavior. If you dislike the gear randomizer that much then the normal thing would be to skip it. Do not force yourself to play content you hate. 

[Gaxxian]

hace 2 minutos, Drachnyn dijo:

Do not force yourself to play content you hate. 

Its the ogre choice. You can choose between:

- Playing a content that you hate but winning the very good rewards.
- Hating the fact that you lose very good rewards to avoiding a very bad and long content.

Choose your poison, but either way you will end feeling bad.

[Ogger]

Randomization is really bad and annoying but if it's too unbearable just get a carry. This is a co-op game.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

Ok, here's some more food for thought.

Let's start from the top of the figurative "pyramid" of players here. With the peak of said pyramid being all the Legendary 1+ players. A lot of us have been asking for a challenge in the game. A challenge to our collections of gear, to our builds, to our setups that we min-maxed through the time and effort put into the items that DE provides us with - new frames, new weapons, new companions, new gear(Nerchamechs, Arch-guns, etc). And DE, to an extent, were kinda providing every now and then:

• First, was the introduction of Steel Path. Instantly boosting the starting level of enemies by 100(or more/less in a few separate cases, I think) from the get go, from the beginning of the mission, while also adding modifiers to enemy HP/shield/armor. And on top of that, occasional Acolyte spawn - an 'elite' enemy that you have to quickly dispatch of as they spawn, lest you wanna be one-shotted or something. Was it perfect? No. But it for sure was(and still is) a step in the right direction of giving us a challenge. Not every piece of gear or build is instantly "out of the box" is Steel Path viable - you have to put in forma and time into most stuff to be Steel Path viable. And it's obviously "speaking about SP overall", not about any specific game mode inside of it right now - just the SP "modifier" to all of them, in general;
• The survival game mode is here with us for a very long time already. But it's also a mode that provides a challenge over time. The longer you stay - the harder the enemies get - the harder it gets to refill the the Life Support via just kills alone. In theory, of course. On practice it's a lil bit more complicated than that (due to intricasies of some Warframes, like Khora/Hydroid/Necros, for example), but at the core, the idea is to provide a challenge over time. Longer stay - harder the run. Good. Resuls may vary, but the direction is good;
• Then there is Disruption game mode, which allows us to have those enemy levels scale up hell of a lot faster than in Survival mode. In Surivival, to reach REALLY high levels - even with SP modifier of +100 to begin with - you'll still have to stay for over an hour (or two or more) to get like actually challenging levels, stats and amounts of enemies for all those "Legendary 1+" ranked players, with our min-maxed builds and whatnot. Even in solo. All while Disruption just skips huge gaps with each new round/wave, allowing you to reach literal "level cap" (9999) in a rather short time. Why? To give you a sense of accomplishment that your build - and you, as a result - are able to beat "level cap", maximum possible levels of enemies. Ideal? Without flaw? Hell no, of course not. But again, it's getting there. It surely satisfies that "power fantasy" desire for many people;
• Then there is the Zariman, with Flood Cascade game mode being pretty much the same thing as Disruption, specifically when it comes to ramping up enemy levels real fast, reaching that "level cap" (9999) real fast as well. And again, same feeling of accomplishment. Again, not ideal, but once more - the right direction. And as a bonus - a good farm of arcanes from those Thraxes, resulting in solid plat income OR fodder for vosfor dissolution(if you're into gambling);
• Hell, somewhere in-between these Disruptions and Void Cascade, there is also the Conjunction Survival game mode on Lua too. One that starts right at 180-200lvl enemies already with SP modifier, skipping at least some of the lower level snooze fest of survival and jumping right into the more actually entertaining survival. PLUS the occasional Sentient spawns from this whole thing being on Lua. PLUS the Thrax spawns at every 5 minute intervals. PLUS the Acolytes from the Steel Path. You know? Again, still not without flaws, still not ideal... But already getting there for sure too.

And you know what links all these points above all together? All these attempts at providing a challenge to players? Yup, that's right... Those are game modes that you can play at any moment, as much as you want, enjoy your power-fantasy/test of your gear... and best part? ALWAYS GET REWARDED NO MATTER WHAT for your run in full. Day or night, any day of the week, without any daily/weekly rotations of rewards or tickling that "FOMO" of yours. Have some time to kill(that's what games are for!) and want some fun endless and challenging-over-time run? Just go Void Cascade, Disruptionon or Conjunction Survival Lua. Or whatever else, really. Will it provide like super-mega-uber-challenging difficulty for Legendary 1+ players, who have min-maxed builds and whatnot + especially if they run in a pre-made squad instead of solo? Probably not, at least right on the first minutes. But for people below this power level... That for sure can, will and IS a challenge still.

 

But... Hear me out. Let's not forget that under that "peak", under that "top" of Legendary players, there are still much lower ranks and even literal new players that still freshly picked up Warframe - again after a break or for the first time. And here's the thing... For these players, who are still in their early-mid days of journey for Warframe, we have:

• Sorties - a daily rotation 3-mission mechanic that starts out at 50-60, then goes slightly higher with further missions, reaching that lvl 100 on 3rd step. And with some minor modifiers sprinkled on top of each mission - like restricting a weapon class or giving you reduced energy or something like that. It's a mechanic to "test your power" for those lower ranked people who are still starting up, with a rotation of rewards. A daily sort of a... "Test" of your "might", in a way? One that you try to complete and fail at first (especially solo). Until you get better and better and better... Finally reaching that point where Sorties are "just yet another easy alert, just three missions in a row", because you've outgrown that power level and it's no longer a challenge for you;
• Arbitrations - another special mission mechanic that is on a rotation too, just with a shorter timer.  Starting out at 60-80lvls and providing a unique twist to one of the same basic game modes of Warframe - via those arbitration drones dropped into the enemy crowd, forcing you to slightly get out of your comfort zone, by actually shooting the drone in the crowd, with your guns instead of just mindlessly spamming your nuke ability over and over. Again, not without flaws, not perfect, but a step in the right direction. Yet once again, it's clearly tailored for lower rank players too, still passing through their mid-steps in progression. Another "test" of your power at a certain progression point, until it becomes no longer a challenge;
• Then, late in that same progression, come the Archon Hunts... Literally a copy-paste of Sorties, but starting from 130lvl and higher, with overall enemy empowerment modifiers on top. A weekly rotation and a long while for you to complete it. Again, as a sort of test for your current progress. Like... "at which point, at what power level you are already" in your progression? Does Archon Hunt feel like a quick breeze once a week? Just like Sorties became a quick breeze once a day at some point for you? If so - you've already outgrown 90% of the game's content in your power level. Good job, Tenno!

Now, let's see here... What connects these separate mechanics together is the fact that... They are on a rotation. The rewards are on a rotation.

• Sorties - you complete the daily rotation, get rewards for it, move on to something else until the next day. You... literally don't play the sortie missions again until the next day, because you're not getting another reward for completing it again until the reset happens;
• Arbitrations is the same - you complete the run (be it fast or long "endless" for as long as possible) and wait for the next rotation too;
• No doubt, the Archon Hunt is exactly the same as Sorties too - just on a weekly rotation. You go in, complete the three missions, get the reward and forget about this until the weekly reset. You don't play the Archon Hunt again, since - just like with Sortie - you don't get any extra rewards for doing it again.

See the difference between these? The first bunch of modes I've mentioned(Survival, Void Cascade, etc) and these three mechanics(Sortie/Arbi/Hunts). That's right... The first group is available at all time, with full rewards at all times, all while providing a challenge. The other - acting as a sort of "test" for your progress  through Warframe and your power level, in a way... But also having a reward on a rotation. You complete it once, then wait for the reset to get rewarded again. You don't play it again and again and again endlessly... Not until the reward pool is reset. You know?

DA/EDA is literally the same as this 2nd group - the "rotation" group of a game mechanic. You go in, complete it, grab your rewards and... WAIT FOR THE WEEKLY RESET. You don't play the mode again until that happens. You don't. Anyone who does it willingly, after already receiving the rewards AND willingly goes there fully aware they will not receive anything for it... Well, they might as well be a masochist at that point, I think? This surely applies to Sorties/Arbitrations/Archon Hunts too - like, why would you go there, if you don't get rewards until it's reset? _{(In fact, you can't go into Arbi, if you've done it super fast and the next rotation reset hasn't happened yet, but that's beyond the point)}

So all of these supposed "defenders" of DA/EDA who claim this mode to be a "challenge"... they lie to us. But most importantly, they lie to themselves. They blindly protect DE against any sort of criticism, but that's it. Or they are just trolling("lol skill issue get rekt m8 rofl" and the rest of it all). They don't "enjoy playing" it. Because they do exactly as everyone else... They do it once and then wait for weekly reset. Just like Sorties(daily) and Hunts(weekly). It's not a game mechanic about the challenge, it's about GETTING THE REWARD by jumping through a few extra hoops, then waiting for the reward to reset and be available again. They lie to themselves, trying to defend DE against criticism and that's when they start their nonsensical mental gymnastics like "bUt YoU dOnT hAvE tO uSe ThE rAnDoM gEaR iF yOu Do NoT wAnT - yOu JuSt GeT lEsS rEwArD fOr NoT pArTiCiPaTiNg! GeAr RaNdOmIzEr Is PaRt Of ThE cHaLlEnGe!" - yeah, right, good on you, bro. It's not part of the challenge though. It's not even a "power level check" of your own gear, your own build, your own setup, like Sorties/Arbitrations/Archon Hunts are at their respective points in your progress through Warframe experience. No.

It's just a no-effort copy-paste of the same mechanic third time: Sorties first, then Hunts, now DA/EDA... Same thing, just with even more modifiers on top AND a gear slot machine. It's literally the same thing, just with extra on top - the extra frustration and a mechanic (the randomizer) which just disregards all of your previous effort up to this point AND disrespects you, the player, for putting effort into the game in the first place to create your own setups that you min-maxed and shaped to perfection. It goes against what Warframe is supposed to be as a game. A looter shooter where you have a huge variety of choices. It strips the choice away from you and spits in your face while at it, by occasionally even picking gear that you don't have in the first place (or had, but sold).

Like... HOW DARE YOU not have everything in your arsenal, fully min-maxed and ready to tackle the supposed "endgame content"? *spits* HOW DARE YOU not spend another thousand(or a few) hours into gear that you will never use outside of this mode? *spits* And I mean... Sure... Some are "kinky" like that, some like their partner spitting at them, humiliating, degrading them, but... How about we leave that to personal time in bedroom with your partner/lover? It's not like Warframe is a BDSM club simulator or something, you know? You like sadism/masochism? Good on you. But not everyone is like that.

And that is exactly why gear randomizer should be removed from DA/EDA. It just should be yet another step in the ladder of our power level. A test OF OUR OWN DESIRED SETUPS/BUILDS, not the randomized nonsense. Just like Sorties and Archon Hunts are at their respective points in the Warframe progression. This one is just the latest next step in the ladder, as I already said.

P.s. Then there is also Duviri, with randomizer too... But like I said before - there are quick rotations, a way to "re-roll", Decrees to compensate for bad rolls and it's a "content island". One that you complete, get all the rewards, and move on, never touch it again unless you need some quick Nightwave challenge or Aggristones/Scales for Bile in your Helminth.

Edited April 16 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_
(Typos fixed)

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

10 minutes ago, OggerAZ said:

Randomization is really bad and annoying but if it's too unbearable just get a carry. This is a co-op game.

How about... No? The whole game is perfectly doable Solo. All of it. From super easy quests which are supposed to be an easy, cinematic solo-experience on purpose... And all the way to open world bosses, which are technically "supposed to be coop content", but can be done solo with the right build and preparation. All while DA/EDA suddenly becoming a "no solo zone"? Well, how about... No.

Edited April 16 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[Drachnyn]

Ah. Everyone who disagrees with OP is now just a liar, DEfender, etc. Good talk, I guess. I wonder why OP cares so much about everything being soloable.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

17 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Ah. Everyone who disagrees with OP is now just a liar, DEfender, etc. Good talk, I guess. I wonder why OP cares so much about everything being soloable.

Yeah, because you seem to refuse to give any meaningful counter-argument except "BUT I ENJOYED IT!" and "BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE THE RNG GEAR, JUST SKIP THE REWARDS".

Those are not the arguments that can work to change anyone's mind though. No matter how many times you keep repeating them or now trying to taunt us here.

1.  Fun is subjective, tastes differ, to each their own and all that... So good for you that you enjoyed it! And if this whole Feedback section is any indication - most people didn't. Primarily because of the RNG gear mechanic;
2.  While the second point has been proven multiple times to be false and not even being a choice in the first place, in multiple threads across this Feedback section, by multiple different people (not just me). Nobody in their sane mind would "skip rewards". ESPECIALLY in a mode that exists just for the weekly rotational rewards, rather than "replayability" and availability of full rewards 24/7 at any time. Nobody plays DA/EDA "for fun". People do it because they want the reward. Anyone who says they "do it to have fun or test their skills" are simply lying, snorting copium and trying to make others snort with them.

But no, we ain't having it, sorry.  All I see is mindless defense of a clearly bad game design with zero effort or thought put behind it - just "because DE can't do no bad". Defending against any sort of criticism/feedback, stating that "it's good" and "it's fine".

No. It's not good, nor is it fine.

Edited April 16 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[Drachnyn]

It has been talked about what people like about this mode. I guess you missed that. The mode rewards a broad selection instead of every time the same few incarnons, the same few warframes. It rewards having a deep understanding of how to build. It rewards playing in coop. It does so in the long term because while you may have some really lucky weeks, you'll also have some really unlucky weeks and for those weeks you will be tested. Either in form of trying to get everything out of the selected gear or by determining which of the modifiers is the most detrimental and dropping that one for the week.

The real power in this game comes from the mods we use. That's what pushes everything over the top. So to say this mode is ignorant of our progression is imo just false. Every piece of equipment can achieve something with mods but nothing can stand without them.

Unless of course you want to get carried which has always been an option in this game in basically every content but I dont get the impression you are happy being carried. Neither do I get the impression you want to become a necramech main.

Or you can continue to say I am a blind defender and a liar. I think I know what you are going to do.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

18 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

The mode rewards a broad selection instead of every time the same few incarnons, the same few warframes. It rewards having a deep understanding of how to build. It rewards playing in coop. It does so in the long term because while you may have some really lucky weeks, you'll also have some really unlucky weeks and for those weeks you will be tested. Either in form of trying to get everything out of the selected gear or by determining which of the modifiers is the most detrimental and dropping that one for the week.

No, it does not reward anything. All it does is take away the choice that literally the rest of the game has. And if you wanna choose how to play your game and how to tackle this supposedly "ENDGAME CONTENT" - you are apparently not allowed to get the full reward. But like I staid before... Sacrificing rewards is NOT an option. So going in with your own gear is NOT an option either. For any sane person. So all it does is brings frustration and negativity to the table. Because the person wants to get the reward, so they feel forced to use gear that they do not like using. Or they don't have it min-maxed to be able to handle this supposedly "ENDGAME CONTENT". Or this gear is simply unable to handle this supposedly "ENDGAME CONTENT", no matter how hard you try with min-maxing and modding. Or they don't own it in the first place! And at the end of the day... you don't go into the supposedly "ENDGAME CONTENT" with gear that is not up to the task - you bring in your best Murderizer-3000, always. That's how normal human logic works. That's how having a choice works.

You like it the way it is tho? Good for you! I'm happy that at least someone enjoys this mess!

Most people don't however and this whole Feedback section has a lot of proof for that, from many different people.

21 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

The real power in this game comes from the mods we use. That's what pushes everything over the top. So to say this mode is ignorant of our progression is imo just false. Every piece of equipment can achieve something with mods but nothing can stand without them.

Some gear is simply inferior de-facto and can't compete or be viable at those levels, not even after you forma it all to hell and back, then put all of your knowledge into modding it. It will still always underperform. Because it's just made that way - through years of power-creep balancing, where older stuff (frames and weapons) is simply not up to par with the new challenge and in need of a rework, compared to some newer options. Nyx and Trinity say hello from the "forgotten backseat", for example. The very addition of those incarnon adapters to bring older/underperforming weapons up to speed is another proof that "some" gear is simply not up to date with the current game and balancing. 

And NO AMOUNT OF MODDING will help. It's not an opinion, it's a fact.

23 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Unless of course you want to get carried which has always been an option in this game in basically every content but I dont get the impression you are happy being carried. Neither do I get the impression you want to become a necramech main.

For this specific mode? With this nonsensical randomizer requirement for the reward? Sure. I'll become a "Necramech main". Because at least I have a choice to use the gear that I've put time and effort in - which is my own maxed out Nercramech that I've built, formad, modded and it's ready for any challenge thrown at it, in reasonable limits. Resorting to "being carried" should not even be an option of being a viable approach. That's some literal backwards thinking and hardcore mental gymanastics right there - "game mode is not bad, you just refuse to see an option of being carried if you don't like it" - WHA..? WHAT THE..? SERIOUSLY..? What other nonsensical, cuckoo's nest, made-up "reasoning" you'll say next?

27 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Or you can continue to say I am a blind defender and a liar. I think I know what you are going to do.

Yeah, because you very much are a blind defender. DE clearly missed the mark on this DA/EDA, but you refuse to see it and acknowledge it, because "DE can't do no wrong", am I right? And you defend this poor game design without giving any proper explanation why it is apparently "good". Only opinions that "you liked it" and that "if you don't like it - being carried is an option".

Bruh! Like... BRUH!

[NOsPL]

5 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Yeah, because you very much are a blind defender. DE clearly missed the mark on this DA/EDA, but you refuse to see it and acknowledge it, because "DE can't do no wrong", am I right? And you defend this poor game design without giving any proper explanation why it is apparently "good". Only opinions that "you liked it" and that "if you don't like it - being carried is an option".

Bruh! Like... BRUH!

You clearly don't understand opposing side of the discussion by implying that this game mode is OBJECTIVELY bad. You will probably call me a blind DE defender too, but I'll try to clarify it anyways.

A lot of people, me included, enjoy the process of picking arsenal from the restricted pool, learning  how it works, figuring out how to make it perform in conditions that are more difficult than usual, cooperating with other teammates, failing few times before completing the missions and then being rewarded for that effort. That's it.

I fully understand that you(and a lot of other players) prefer freedom of choice over what I just described and your FOMO is so strong that you can't get over the fact that some people would be rewarded for additional (but not mandatory!) effort with a fraction of loot that can be farmed in other places every week.

Btw, could you give me an example of set of frame, primary, secondary and melee that makes it impossible to finish EDA?

Incoming response: "How about...No."

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

31 minutes ago, NOsPL said:

You clearly don't understand opposing side of the discussion by implying that this game mode is OBJECTIVELY bad. You will probably call me a blind DE defender too, but I'll try to clarify it anyways.

I mean... Because it is bad game design. And it's not an opinion, it's a fact. Ya know? PLUS, it's literally just the 2rd evolution of Sortie - with Archon Hunts being 1st evolution prior to it. It's something we already had... TWICE. Just with new extra stuff added on top.

33 minutes ago, NOsPL said:

A lot of people, me included, enjoy the process of picking arsenal from the restricted pool, learning  how it works, figuring out how to make it perform in conditions that are more difficult than usual, cooperating with other teammates, failing few times before completing the missions and then being rewarded for that effort. That's it.

I fully understand that you(and a lot of other players) prefer freedom of choice over what I just described and your FOMO is so strong that you can't get over the fact that some people would be rewarded for additional (but not mandatory!) effort with a fraction of loot that can be farmed in other places every week.

Well, good for you. Glad you enjoy toying around with builds and all that. I also enjoy that. That's why I've spent over 4k hours in the game, toying around with all sorts of frames and weapons, building this and that, trying this and that, in various scenarios, before filtering out inferior/underperforming options. And I simply see no reason for further tinkering, if I have more than enough setups/loadouts that are sharpened to perfection by this point... so to speak. Created to fit any and all challenges that the game might throw their way.

You are free to do it, if you enjoy it. This doesn't mean that others who already done it before should be doing it again, wasting time/resources again on something they've deemed "not worth it" due to being inferior/underperforming even after extensive upgrades and modding. Which led to getting rid of the items most likely to free up space - because why have it around, gathering dust, if you're never gonna use it anyway, right? And if they refuse to do all of what you "enjoy doing" this does not mean they should be locked out of the full reward for going through the 3 missions either way.

1. That's why I said that randomizer should be removed. Entirely and altogether;
2. OR switched to be how it's in Arbitrations/Sortie/Hunt - you get a bonus for using the randomized gear, WITHOUT cutting your reward in half if you refuse to do it;
3. OR there should be an option to instead add more debuffs/negatives, replacing the need for using randomized gear.

There. Three options. Three CHOICES. Sure, number 1 satisfies me and others who don't like it, giving nothing to the "others". Options 2 and 3 would satisfy the overwhelming majority, giving options to both sides of this discussion, which has been going in many threads in this section. Who wanna tinker around and do what you say you like doing in this mode - go for it, all the power to you. For those who don't want it - just slap extra negatives on top and let us use our own desired gear instead. Everyone's happy. I mean sure, there is 4th option - do literally nothing. But I doubt that would satisfy those who are not happy with the mode. Me included. So I'd rather if they go for 1, 2 or 3 - but SOMETHING has to be done.

31 minutes ago, NOsPL said:

Btw, could you give me an example of set of frame, primary, secondary and melee that makes it impossible to finish EDA?

I mean... No matter what I'll say here, there will always be "that one person" who mains that one warframe, exclusively uses that one particular weapon and uses them effectively - at least in their eyes. Even though there are for sure options that do the same, but also better. Fun is subjective. So are warframe/weapon preferences. And that's why HAVING A CHOICE is important.

But sure, I'll entertain you a bit more, if you like. Here, have this:

• Warframe - Ivara 
• Primary - Penta
• Secondary - Castanas
• Melee - Cronus

This week's mission rotation? Sure, you might go through the Exterminate thanks to Ivara's stealth. Easy-peasy, because enemies just ignore you during stealth - no "fail" condition in Exterminate after all. All you'll have to do is manage your energy. But... What will you do in the Mirror Defense? How will you defend it? How will you run around collecting those sigils(whatever they are called) to stop the self-damage of the objective, if enemies literally have to sneeze in your general direction if you're not stealthed with Ivara? And Eximus don't care, they just AOE explode trying to hit the objective and then they still hit you when you're stealthed, so both the objective and you are dead. All while she's super slow when stealthed, so you won't be fast enough. Nor the sleep arrow will help you, as half the enemies are overguarded and immune to CC... plus even if they weren't, there is no duration on abilities, nor would you ever have enough range or energy to keep on putting everyone to sleep. And Disruption too, really... Again, you need to be mobile and on the move all the time, but Ivara is sooooo slow when stealthed. Or dead, when not stealthed(and imagine building Ivara for "face-tanking" aka survivability out of stealth, when stealth is supposed to be her main tool for survivability).

Sure, next thing I know you'll show me how you've done it solo, in 5 minutes, no sweat. Because it just so happens that you main Ivara and know something that I don't. Which is fair, as I only use her for Mining/Fishing by this point, due to the fact that there are simply better options out there in her "intended role" as a stealth frame or exalted weapon damage dealer(her bow) or ability damage dealer(navigator) - other frames do all of her "jobs" better. Oh and it would just so happen that you have some super secret cheeze build for Penta(or Secura Penta, no doubt) that nukes the whole map. And then you'll tell me some secret kung-fu mechanic of using Castanas(Sancti version too, of course?), one that I don't know about because I've tried them and discarded the moment I maxed em out, as they are simply "not it". And yeah... Cronus. Yup. Not gonna even write anything here about it, it's self-explanatory.

You see... There are ways to make some of these things work. I know for sure my Mag absolutely loves that Secura Penta... The slashing-smashing "sawblade" made of a literal flying brick that can also explode afterwards too - just throw it into the Magnetize bubble and have enemies get "slashed" by a spinning brick of death. It's actually fun AND powerful/viable, no sarcasm. But that requires a specific setup on the Penta itself(crit chance, hunter munition, internal bleeding, etc) and using it specifically on Mag. Which is - suddenly - not an option in this fake scenario that we're discussing. But even if we drop that last vosfor reward and pick Mag to go together with Penta... Then you simply won't have enough duration or energy to do all the shenanigans with this setup. So it's not viable here. Okay, let's drop one of the weapon slots then for something much more powerful, again sacrificing that one last reward, the vosfor. Like, let's go for the OH SO "HATED" Torid. Or, I dunno, Latron Prime Incarnon. But... You're still running Ivara then. Doubt that any "OP" weapon will help you there.

Sure, maybe try summon an Arch-gun? Or maybe... Summon the Necramech..? Oh-oh! Looks like we're already out of the whole point of the "randomizer", because Necramech isn't part of it. Or rather, I feel like you don't like it, eh? Yet with that sort of of setup... Aren't you kinda "forced" to use that one and only non-randomized piece of gear that can do the job, which is your Necramech in this case? Just because the rest of your gear can't perform well, yet the Necramech can? But... you don't like using it, so you don't want to use it and refuse to use it... Even though there's the perfectly viable option - just use the Necramech to "compensate" for the poor RNG on Ivara-Penta-Castanas-Cronus, I say! But you don't want to, cuz you don't like being forced to use Necramech. Same way I don't want to use RNG gear that I don't like. It's literally the same.

Next, you'll suggest - "But you don't have to go solo, you can coordinate with your team so they'll help aka "carry" you through your bad RNG gear" - And sure... It's possible. But "being carried through bad RNG" shouldn't be a "viable alternative". It should not be, period. Instead, just give us the freedom of choice behind what gear we wanna use without locking away any of the rewards. And instead provide the challenge to tackle with our own chosen gear. Not artificially "handicapping" us via randomizer gear OR trying to force people into groups for "carry" OR pubs for leeching. That's how you just breed toxicity in the community and people simply finding ways to cheese through the content. Like that case of going 2-by-2 that I've already mentioned before: doing the run 2 times, where 2 players go with their own gear as "carry", the other 2 go with randomizer for the full reward, then just trade places and do it again. Or just... Using Necramechs, as many people did - me included. This essentially INVALIDATES THE WHOLE POINT, so why even have it then in the end? Just remove it.

Locking away the reward behind it only forces people to go for those cheese tactics - Nercramech, 2-by-2, "carrying" and pub-leeching. Most people do that instead of what you're saying that you do. Most people aren't toying around with builds, coordinating with your pre-made partners, etc... Sure, you can do it, if you like it. Nobody stops you. But most people won't. Most people just want the weekly reward and be done with it. It's not a repeatable/endless game where you go again and again, getting rewards non-stop (like Survival, Void Cascade or Disruption). No. It's a one-off weekly rotation thing. People go there FOR THE REWARD and for the reward ONLY. Not for the experience. If you go there for the experience, well... My condolences to your mental health, I guess?

Hope you're you entertained enough? :)

[Drachnyn]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb _Kit_Kat_Cat_:

• Warframe - Ivara 
• Primary - Penta
• Secondary - Castanas
• Melee - Cronus

You get 3 frames, 3 primaries, 3 secondaries and 3 melees. Try again.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

4 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

You get 3 frames, 3 primaries, 3 secondaries and 3 melees. Try again.

1 hour ago, NOsPL said:

Btw, could you give me an example of set of frame, primary, secondary and melee that makes it impossible to finish EDA?

The person asked for one set - I gave them one set. If the request said "sets" - I'd give three. But the request was for one. So I gave just one.

Besides, I wasn't talking to you... If the person will ask for three sets instead, by your "suggestion" - then sure. I'll give them three. There's plenty of underperforming gear that isn't ready for DA/EDA, not even if formad and modded to hell and back.

Edited April 16 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[NOsPL]

 

1 hour ago, Drachnyn said:

You get 3 frames, 3 primaries, 3 secondaries and 3 melees. Try again.

Nah, lets be fair. I asked about 1 of each. The thing is, OP brought up the topic of 'some arsenal items being too weak for EDA' for no reason. Because even if I make it work, it won't have any impact on their opinion ;)

[obiwandandobi2]

It's me, the real boy!

If you don't like it don't play it. I hated Khal so I didn't play it, missed out on a year's worth of shards, so what. I chose what I wanted to do and what I didn't, just got on with it and accepted that me disliking something would mean I wouldn't get as many rewards as someone who slogged through it.

What I didn't do was whine about it, calling it bad game design because I didn't like it. Either play it and suck it up or ignore it and do what you do enjoy. Netrocells are still there, do those! We know you don't like it, your whining has made that perfectly clear. I just hope DE ignores your crying and sticks with what I think is a great new game mode.

[NOsPL]

Damn, I missed this gem:

8 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Some are "kinky" like that, some like their partner spitting at them, humiliating, degrading them, but... How about we leave that to personal time in bedroom with your partner/lover? It's not like Warframe is a BDSM club simulator or something, you know? You like sadism/masochism? Good on you. But not everyone is like that.

Bruh XD People who like randomized loadout in EDA enjoy being spat on? Wtf? Are you projecting? XD

Edited April 16 by NOsPL

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

30 minutes ago, NOsPL said:

 

Nah, lets be fair. I asked about 1 of each. The thing is, OP brought up the topic of 'some arsenal items being too weak for EDA' for no reason. Because even if I make it work, it won't have any impact on their opinion ;)

Then why did you ask in the first place? This just further proves you're here to troll and "disagree for the sake of disagreeing", just to create conflict.

11 minutes ago, obiwandandobi2 said:

It's me, the real boy!

If you don't like it don't play it. I hated Khal so I didn't play it, missed out on a year's worth of shards, so what. I chose what I wanted to do and what I didn't, just got on with it and accepted that me disliking something would mean I wouldn't get as many rewards as someone who slogged through it.

What I didn't do was whine about it, calling it bad game design because I didn't like it. Either play it and suck it up or ignore it and do what you do enjoy. Netrocells are still there, do those! We know you don't like it, your whining has made that perfectly clear. I just hope DE ignores your crying and sticks with what I think is a great new game mode.

I am under the impression you do not understand the definition of the word "Feedback". Here, let me help you. Or this source. Or this one instead. Or this. And many more. Not in a single one of them I see any word about "whining".

Also, Netracells are not an alternative. 5x Netracell runs yield less rewards per week than doing single EDA run(2x Netracell "keys" resulting in 5 rewards) + 3x Netracells. 5 rewards vs 8 rewards. Simple math here, you know? So yeah, Netracells are not "an alternative".

And lastly... Tell me, how many times you've played this "great new game mode" this week(and previous weeks too) after you've completed it once and got all the rewards? I very much doubt you did. So it feels like you're also here just to "disagree for the sake of disagreeing", just to create conflict for the sake of conflict and attention. Just for the sake of trolling and to show how "different and not like the rest" you are. That's all I see.

And here I am, feeding you both. Good job, I guess?

[NOsPL]

1 hour ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Then why did you ask in the first place? This just further proves you're here to troll and "disagree for the sake of disagreeing", just to create conflict.

Wrong. You are dishonest. I asked the question in good faith. You proved that you don't care about the argument of 'some arsenal items being to weak for EDA' AFTER I asked it, by moving the goal post:

3 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

No matter what I'll say here, there will always be "that one person" who mains that one warframe, exclusively uses that one particular weapon and uses them effectively

The problem is the entitlement mentality. You want to get all the rewards, no matter how many there are. If devs made EDA give 5 rewards while ignoring restricted loadout, but 7 for using it, you would still be mad.

You talk a lot about freedom of choice. But you are the one, who wants to get rid of it, by removing OPTIONAL modifiers.

1 hour ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

And lastly... Tell me, how many times you've played this "great new game mode" this week(and previous weeks too) after you've completed it once and got all the rewards? I very much doubt you did.

You are totally missing the point of the opposite side by saying that we should enjoy repeating EDA over and over again without any rewards. Again:

A lot of people enjoy the process of picking arsenal from the restricted pool, learning  how it works, figuring out how to make it perform in conditions that are more difficult than usual, cooperating with other teammates, failing few times before completing the missions and then being rewarded for that effort.

Getting additional rewards for putting more effort into it is the gratifying part.

Edited April 16 by NOsPL

[Nelsconey]

1 hour ago, obiwandandobi2 said:

It's me, the real boy!

If you don't like it don't play it. I hated Khal so I didn't play it, missed out on a year's worth of shards, so what. I chose what I wanted to do and what I didn't, just got on with it and accepted that me disliking something would mean I wouldn't get as many rewards as someone who slogged through it.

What I didn't do was whine about it, calling it bad game design because I didn't like it. Either play it and suck it up or ignore it and do what you do enjoy. Netrocells are still there, do those! We know you don't like it, your whining has made that perfectly clear. I just hope DE ignores your crying and sticks with what I think is a great new game mode.

Bravo!!!!! 

[Mr.Holyroller]

Deep archemedia is super fun.
I've had every weapon that's been in rotation thus far.
Even if I didn't, there's no weapon i wouldnt be able to pick up before the end of the week. In reality, within the next 24 hours.
Archemedia also has a failsafe where a friend or clan mate, or random person can completely carry you without taking any restrictions. All while still rewarding long-time players who have a large collection of frames and weapons with some genuinely challenging content.

In pretty much every way its a step up from the RNG of the circuit because someone can carry you through it worst case scenario.
It makes people play together and engage socially more as well.
People that hate content like this tend to be those that only play 1 frame when they arent leveling a frame for mastery, or almost exclusively play solo.

And on top of all that, its for archon shards. the final frontier of end-game min-maxing aside from putting umbral forma on frames. it should be hard, it should be content that a lot of players cant readily do without help from others.

Edited April 16 by Mr.Holyroller

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

1 minute ago, NOsPL said:

The problem is the entitlement mentality. You want to get all the rewards, no matter how many there are. If devs made EDA give 5 rewards while ignoring restricted loadout, but 7 for using it, you would still be mad.

It's not entitlement. It's bad game design, restricting your choice of gear, while literally the whole game is about having said choice in the first place.

2 minutes ago, NOsPL said:

You talk a lot about freedom of choice. But you are the one, who wants to get rid of it, by removing OPTIONAL modifiers.

I said it before and I will say it again. They are not optional, if half the reward is locked behind using the randomizer. We do a mission to get a reward. No normal sane person would WILLINGLY refuse a reward, so we HAVE TO use the randomizer gear. We are FORCED TO use the randomizer gear. It's not an option.

If you're okay with refusing the reward for your effort - there's something wrong with you.

5 minutes ago, NOsPL said:

You are totally missing the point of the opposite side by saying that we should enjoy repeating EDA over and over again without any rewards. Again:

A lot of people enjoy the process of picking arsenal from the restricted pool, learning  how it works, figuring out how to make it perform in conditions that are more difficult than usual, cooperating with other teammates, failing few times before completing the missions and then being rewarded for that effort.

Getting additional rewards for putting more effort into it, is the gratifying part.

If you enjoy it - all the power to you. Do it, if you like it. Nobody's stopping you. I've did it before though, I've created my own setups/loadouts of gear. That's why I've suggested two other options on how to handle it, instead of outright removing the randomizer:

3 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

• That's why I said that randomizer should be removed. Entirely and altogether;
• OR switched to be how it's in Arbitrations/Sortie/Hunt - you get a bonus for using the randomized gear, WITHOUT cutting your reward in half if you refuse to do it;
• OR there should be an option to instead add more debuffs/negatives, replacing the need for using randomized gear.

Option A indeed would satisfy me and a lot of other people who don't enjoy the randomizer, but leave people like you salty. Option B is a middle ground... ish. While option C will simply satisfy both sides equally. One group goes for randomizer and tinkering, with less negatives/debuffs... The other group skips the randomizer and istead goes for more negatives/debuffs. But in the end, both side get equal amount of research points, regardless of their choice of path to go - randomizer or more negatives. Everyone's a winner, everyone gets equal reward and fun from it all. Because "fun" is also subjective. 

Right now, only one side - the "tinkerers" - get the fun. The other side does not. The other side - people like me and many others(again, look through the feedback section, I'm not alone) - are only getting frustration out of it. Doesn't seem fair to me, at all.

Unless you consider it okay for us - those who refuse to participate in the randomizer - to just "leech" through it every week and others having to carry us. It will only lead to toxicity, but sure, we can do that. Absolutely. I will just keep on grabbing Wisp(or some other "buffing" warframe and weapons form the randomizer. I will surely actively try to contribute... ish... But only just for the sake of getting the reward. Not because I enjoy the process of using the gear that I have no interest in using. And if the choices of RNG gear are extra trash, I'll just use the Necramech instead (if possible). That's gonna be very healthy for the game and the community, yup yup.

Oh and yeah. I will still stand by my opinion until DE acknowledges this whole thing in any way. Be it applying some changes to the mode OR stating there will be no changes. Either way, until then, I will hope for changes. You can keep on trolling or making fun of me and others who refuse to participate in this bad game design. All the power to you, I guess. I gave my feedback based on my experience in the game after over 4k hours and reaching Leg4. You disagreeing with me (and others) changes literally nothing - you just stating your opinion and feedback, which simply differs from ours.

3 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

or almost exclusively play solo.

Yup. And there's quite a lot of such players in the community too.

[Mr.Holyroller]

4 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

 

Yup. And there's quite a lot of such players in the community too.

Idk man, dont play and mmorpg solo and then get mad when you cant do everything solo. It like the worst part about entitled gamers these days in mmorpg spaces.

Also since you've replied to me, you had such an easy W setup for this week.
 

• Wukong / Inaros / Equinox
• Kohm / Aeolak / Hek
• Atomos / Akstiletto / Onos
• Masseter / Azothane / Ruvox
  
  You could have carried the Mirror defense with Inaros or Equinox just keeping everything cc'd with a full squad which was the biggest challenge this week. 
  You could handle the disruption and exterminate with your nechramech.
  
  I did just fine with Hydroid and complete trash weapons. (image below)
  
  I did the bulk of the heavy lifting for the squad i was in with just my Mausolon and Necramech.
  Even on weeks when they disable the gear wheel you can still find a terminal for the Necramech.
  
  I dont know how people can spend so much time in this game and find 0 interest or value in re-optmizing/moderning frames that you havent used in a while. There's something to appreciate about pretty much every frame 
  
  
   

[Drachnyn]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb _Kit_Kat_Cat_:

• Warframe - Ivara 
• Primary - Penta
• Secondary - Castanas
• Melee - Cronus

Done, completed it solo with 34 research points (if those were indeed my modifiers).

During mirror defense:

Spoiler

Mirror defense done:

Spoiler

Disruption start:

Spoiler

and done:

Spoiler

This disruption was so free:

Spoiler

First tried the mirror defense. Ironically the exterminate was giving me the most trouble because of the void bursts. I want to give special shoutouts to my dog (a sahasa) and to the dummy brigade (my specters).

Some more notes:

• Vazarin was great during mirror defense because I couldnt stay in prowl as that was just too slow.
• Magus lockdown was mission critical in both mirror defense and disruption.
• Kubrow's Mecha set is insane. Hunter muntions spreading on hyper crack to the entire local postcode is crazy.

This was exciting to do. Rookie mistake to give me a frame with an exalted weapon :)