LoS Fixes for Dante’s Tragedy coming in next Hotfix

[2wentyThre3]

+1 to the revert all Dante changes crowd.

[JullieTheCutie]

I'd say revert the changes, this was way too early and those who invested into the pack (may now want a refund) or forma'd Dante more than likely now feel betrayed by how drastic and sudden this is after how short this update has been out. This is not how you treat a new-and-fresh Warframe. LOS creates way too many consistency issues for Tragedy (and in general) and maybe the overguard could've been reduced a tad but not by like 60% (even Nezha's Aug range was nerfed a bit too much (also too early of a nerf as well)). You guys [DE] need to spend more time reviewing and playtesting nerfs in-house to avoid these situations. This type of precedent can kill any hype or excitement for anything in the game receiving sudden huge nerfs after a big update. I would seriously reconsider how you roll out updates like these in the future DE. I want you guys to be able to create the best game possible since I love Warframe. Take a little more time reviewing and letting things breathe, whether that's a new Frame, Augment, Weapon, or Mechanic.

I only want you guys to avoid having players purposefully avoid buying/ playing (or refusing to buy anything in the future with these types of decisions) with stuff in a new big update, and instead pick everything up months later due to the precedent of having hype and excitement completely null and voided.

All the best, from a registered loser

Edited April 5 by JullieTheCutie
New line of feedback

[Zomiku]

2 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

We want to reiterate that we are paying close attention to player feedback and taking these conversations very seriously.

99.9 feedback: revert changes or at least no LOS mechanic
DE: we implementing some sort of a bug fix of a whole different broken mechanic so we can use the LOS on Tragedy.


Thank you for listening to your players and their feedback.

[CoffeeSorcerer69]

Revert the changes.

[KaosKuantico]

Revert the changes, create a dragon key to prevent overguard from those who don't want it. The complains were from team mates, not Dante's users. 

[Sarulas]

50 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

So if it's not obvious, the other problem besides the LoS being dysfunctional, is that some people liked the interaction between Dante's 3 and 4 as a tagging mechanic. E. G. tag enemies in different rooms as you travel between them, and then cash in with his 4. LoS is going to destroy that functionality in a game as focused around long segmented corridors as Warframe is.

10000% this. LoS isn't just flawed because it's buggy and inconsistent. It's flawed because it fundamentally does not belong on this ability.

Making the LoS check more consistent will NOT solve the actual problem here.

I'm all for balancing the frame, but said balance needs to keep the feeling of playing it intact. Tweak numbers, sure, but this LoS change will neuter the tag/cash-in mechanic that is THE WHOLE POINT. There's no way this interaction wasn't originally intended, and I'm stunned that it was so easily discarded.

Xao, thank you for helping me articulate why I have such a big problem with this. DE, please don't make the mistake of doubling down here when so many have so clearly called for the change to be reverted. These LoS changes would absolutely be helpful when applied to the right frames, but Dante IS NOT one of them. Ember might be, though. I'm sure that buffing her with the solutions you proposed in this post would go a long way.

[MightyMike87]

12 minutes ago, ManageConductor said:

Perhaps their argument is this: dante is taking away the role of other frames. Imagine if dante usage was the same as wukong in the past. Every multiplayer mission you play, dante will be there, eliminating enemies for you and granting you invincible overguard. And your abilities, weapons, and mods would be meaningless. That seems so boring. But i also know that soloing dante can be very fun. I believe this problem stems from the fact that warframe has been accepting both solo and coop users.

Thats fine, if they’re reviewing it after a few weeks or months maybe, ya know actually taking some time to let the post release hype calm down and then review the data, see how much he’s being played, in what content and to what effect and then gauge a more accurate data based opinion over a reasonable period of time. 
 

Theres no way you can come to any conclusions on the above statements with any clarity after 7 days! Most people have only had access to him for at the very most 4 of those days, 4 days…..and even that’s if you managed to farm and start crafting him within hours of his release. I bet there’s many people who’ve not even had a chance to properly play him at all. Nobody knows how much or to what extent Dante would change squad composition, because they’ve not given it any time. Of course he’s been played a lot over the last days, he’s the shiny new toy. What are people meant to do? Just stick Revenent or Saryn or Mesa or *insert other typical meta frame here* back on and do what we’ve been doing for years already? 
 

The whole thing has been a total overreaction to a few of the usual suspects complaining on forums who will and do complain about anything/chroma players who instead of asking for their favourite frame to actually function properly and get an actual rework just want to see everything else die instead. 

The reality is Dante was, at BEST in his pre nerfed state an A rank Warframe. Very good, extremely fun and very different. But there were many far stronger and better picks for High level content that have gone years without being touched in any negative way. He just gave you a different play style. Now, 7 days after release he’s keeping Caliban company in the “why do people never use me” bin. 

 

[Mirrorjade727]

I can live with the overguard nerf, yes it was very high and I don't mind pressing 2 a couple more times and spending more energy. I can live with DPS decrease, his damage was insanely good and I don't mind pressing 3 a couple more times and spending more energy. But LOS? It feels terrible. I feel like the reception would not have been so harsh if it was just the previously mentioned nerfs. It feels like too much to hit at once without seeing how he preforms with just a simple numbers adjustment. For such a unique Warframe to be gutted in such a way does not feel good. The numbers were crazy and did need a hit that is fair, but the LOS should not have been added imo. Dante feels like a wasted investment because there are already frames without LOS that can room clear better then he could before his nerf, but with Dante it was fun to do it at least. Now why play Dante with the nuisance of not killing some mobs or not dealing damage to them because an object was in between us when I could pick someone like Saryn and kill mobs almost 2 rooms away that I didn't even know about.

Edited April 5 by Mirrorjade727

[ChubbyChpndale]

Revert the changes, change his Overguard so that it only affects him. He was perfect as he was, now he is ruined. The main complaint people had couldliterally be fixed with a mod. I want my money and my Forma back.

[MightyMike87]

28 minutes ago, Ehzral said:

Thanx for killing dante. Guess it's back to my Volt.

I think DE forgets those of us who are on steel path still play the game. Everything is being balanced around low-level playing and everytime we get something steel path viable it gets nerfed into oblivion.

The complainers were no doubt mostly made up of regular star chart players and Chroma mains. Nobody who really had the chance to use Dante in any meaningful high level mission could have thought he was even close to being overpowered. 40-45 minutes into a Cascade and your over guard would be getting shredded in a few shots. Meanwhile a Revenant is standing over the other side of the room AFK lighting a cigar whilst 4 thrax units chomp away at him. 

[Sh1m0ku]

Full revert Dante!

[WhipNurCream]

4 minutes ago, Mirrorjade727 said:

I can live with the overguard nerf, yes it was very high and I don't mind pressing 2 a couple more times and spending more energy. I can live with DPS decrease, his damage was insanely good and I don't mind pressing 3 a couple more times and spending more energy. But LOS? It feels terrible. I feel like the reception would not have been so harsh if it was just the previously mentioned nerfs. It feels like too much to hit at once without seeing he preforms. For such a unique Warframe to be gutted in such a way does not feel good. The numbers were crazy and did need a hit that is fair but the LOS should not have been added imo. Dante feels like a wasted investment because there are already frames without LOS that can room clear better then he could before his nerf, but with Dante it was fun to do it at least. Now why play Dante with the nuisance of not killing some mobs or not dealing damage to them because an object was in between us when I could pick someone like Saryn and kill mobs almost 2 rooms away that I didn't even know about.

out of reacts apparently. THIS^

[Numerounius]

3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function.  

Then why was this change pushed out? DE knew about LOS issues as Khora as that has the same exact problem for over a year. Couldn't you fix it first then release the change? I don't think anyone was hurting for the change to come later than a week, could've even done just the Overguard change if you wanted to push something out as there are some people saying that it still works well while others are trying to assess in an energy eco situation making it very hard to gather proper feedback around that with all of this other stuff happening.

Assess feedback then adjust future nerfs such as addressing dps down the line with a note saying its coming. Not too pleased with the double-dipping nerfs that have been happening, first with Marked for Death then with Wukong's Twin and now Dante. They have clearly been a miss more often than a hit.

 

The second part of the statment reads: Not seeing any of this nor will I see any of the future feedback, if any, that is received. As I can so clearly tell by the very unprofessional "megathread" that has been set up. Seriously you couldn't at least have a better opening topic to it instead of a call to action on basically everything and having separate threads for the various elements of the hotfix rather than bundling everything in there, or even removing those that don't provide substance despite the author's initial post in that megathread.

Edited April 5 by Numerounius

[yeahnil]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Numerounius:

The second part of the statment reads: Not seeing any of this nor will I see any of the future feedback, if any, that is received. As I can so clearly tell by the very unprofessional "megathread" that has been set up.

This. It's basically just containment that can be ignored more efficiently 

[Blazerage717]

I agree with what everyone else is saying, revert the changes please. This was an uncalled for nerf.

[Nero.DMC]

3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function.  

 

Nerfs should NEVER EVER be a hotfix, you need to test them a LOT... they are not something you should ever do in a rush... and you clearly did, DE panicked for no reason the frame was fine, his numbers and output was fine and now you killed hype fun and trust for NOTHING...

Please refund everyone Dante formas and the frame for ppl that purchased it, its the only way you are going to keep a semblance of trust, or better yet revert those extremely dumb changes and take the time to balance him properly (even tho he is not outperforming any of the good frames)

[Daddy.bulbs]

Revert all of the nerfs to nezha an dante . This is not a slight tweak this is a tweak using a hammer , the nerf hammer not cool man.

[MiZiGe]

people are interested :) may I suggest a slight "revert", that is Tragedy complies with LoS if used on its own, but if Pageflight is active, it works as the "old" Tragedy. Alternatively, reserve this buff for an augment?

[_GoodLuck_]

Revert the changes you made to Dante. He doesn't deserve such a hard nerf

Edited April 5 by _GoodLuck_
Grammar

[Xenevier]

1 minute ago, MiZiGe said:

people are interested :) may I suggest a slight "revert", that is Tragedy complies with LoS if used on its own, but if Pageflight is active, it works as the "old" Tragedy. Alternatively, reserve this buff for an augment?

better yet ... remove LoS from dante 4

[Fallen-Exia]

If the line of sight changes aren't reverted how do we process a refund if we spent money for Dante? Genuinely feels like being ripped off here and I'd rather get my materials and money back instead of a frame that now doesn't work as advertised originally. 

[Kuwagata]

Just REVERT the LOS changes and keep the rest of the nerfs.

It's crazy already that I actually bought the whole Dante pack because I was really looking forward for it and loved his kit, just for you guys "fix it", because apparently people were having too much fun it seems.

I don't even care about the overguard issue, even when it's easily melted in SP missions, but since you guys are so obsessed with nerfing everything  then at least leave Dante's damage kit remain viable. 

[Neightrix]

Maybe for ONCE we can do something other than a line-of-sight nerf? Especially when the ability range gets up to 70m - you're NOT hitting ANYTHING at 70m with an LoS check. Nerf the actual range instead. OR do what people asked for and nerf his overguard cap instead. He should give a bit less overguard overall than Frost, since Frost has to cast many times to build up to his cap and requires an augment.

[Waeleto]

1 minute ago, Neightrix said:

OR do what people asked for and nerf his overguard cap instead. He should give a bit less overguard overall than Frost, since Frost has to cast many times to build up to his cap and requires an augment.

I'd like to add, the problem isn't the overguard he has on himself, the problem was the overguard he has on ALLIES

[BayouSnowman4]

10 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

Nerfs should NEVER EVER be a hotfix, you need to test them a LOT... they are not something you should ever do in a rush... and you clearly did, DE panicked for no reason the frame was fine, his numbers and output was fine and now you killed hype fun and trust for NOTHING...

Please refund everyone Dante formas and the frame for ppl that purchased it, its the only way you are going to keep a semblance of trust, or better yet revert those extremely dumb changes and take the time to balance him properly (even tho he is not outperforming any of the good frames)

Totally agree it should never be rushed.  Revert and refund aren't in the vocabulary of DE, they're good at catfishing everyone.  They release untested Frames and Mods, let everyone enjoy/invest/buy them, then say oh, we gotta nerf them now to a point where no one uses them and/or they break them and the remedy takes a lot longer to fix, if it comes at all.  

Revert the changes til you figure out how to fix it.  Maybe Dante was "broken" and fun, but now he's literally just BROKEN.  Atleast DE got the money/plat/resources/hype and players time and buzz...now lets just break it and wait long enough for the community to forget and DO IT AGAIN!  Not like we haven't been here before.