DE, Please Save CC

[screddev14]

DE, please save crowd control abilities. Overguard providing CC immunity makes a large number of abilities do nothing. That may not be a problem when there are only a few eximus units with overguard up, but that is definitely not the situation anymore. Increased eximus spawn rates for high difficulty content already hurt CC since there were fewer situation where a player could CC the mobs while focusing down the dangerous eximus units. When half of the map are eximus units, CC doesn't even give that opportunity. Deep Archimedia is the nail in the coffin. Bolstered Belligerents giving even trash mobs overguard means that CC will never do anything on the content that you would most want CC. So if CC can't do anything to help with priority targets and CC can't do anything to trash mobs, what is the point of CC.

There clearly needs to be some changes made to overguard's interactions with CC to not invalidate a large portion of abilities in this game. I'm sure there are many ways that this could be addressed, but I'll provide a couple of ideas to try to keep CC abilities relevant.

One option could be to remove full CC immunity from overguard and have it provide CC reduction instead. If overguard makes CC abilities only effect enemies for some portion, like 25%, of the unprotected duration, then CC could still be usable when facing hordes of overguard. It could still give players a slight reprieve while also allowing grouping for frames that need it. Fundamentally, this seems like it would allow both CC abilities and overguard to accomplish their intended purposes.

A second option could be to treat overguard's interaction with CC similar to Inaros' Scarab Shell. CC effects could take a percentage off of the overguard of enemies. So for example, Rhino's Stomp could take off 10% of the overguard of enemies it hits. And while a larger initial endeavor, you could have different types of CC remove different amounts of overguard. Realistically, Stomp and Inaros' Desiccation shouldn't remove the same amount of overguard due to the difference in their costs. And channeled CC effects definitely shouldn't take off as much as one Stomp and could instead take off small amounts of overguard per tick. Cold, radiation, and impact damage could be treated similarly too. Personally, I'm not a fan of having CC effects being basically damage, but it could allow more fine tuning in how effective each CC effect would be against overguard.

Certainly this is not an exhaustive list of ideas, but something needs to be done to save the 100+ CC abilities, augments, and passives that do nothing in the face of hard content being more and more overguard centered. DE, Please Save CC.

[moondog548]

The best CC is and always has been "dead".

DE has only made this flaw deeper over the years.

I support your efforts.

Especially this bit

Quote

A second option could be to treat overguard's interaction with CC similar to Inaros' Scarab Shell. CC effects could take a percentage off of the overguard of enemies. So for example, Rhino's Stomp could take off 10% of the overguard of enemies it hits. And while a larger initial endeavor, you could have different types of CC remove different amounts of overguard. Realistically, Stomp and Inaros' Desiccation shouldn't remove the same amount of overguard due to the difference in their costs. And channeled CC effects definitely shouldn't take off as much as one Stomp and could instead take off small amounts of overguard per tick. Cold, radiation, and impact damage could be treated similarly too. Personally, I'm not a fan of having CC effects being basically damage, but it could allow more fine tuning in how effective each CC effect would be against overguard.

 

Edited April 5 by moondog548

[screddev14]

That's fine. The best CC can still be "dead." That doesn't mean that "dead" should be the only CC that works. That doesn't mean that over 100+ player skills should not work as printed. Not every frame's abilities has to be or are dps, survivability, damage buff, and helminth bait. It'd be easier to just fix the flawed mechanic that is hurting old CC frames rather than rework every frame that isn't raw dps.

[Exarke]

Completely agree. We're having a discussion on this over in this thread too, and both of your suggestions have been brought up by others.

It's fairly obvious (to me, to you, to many others) that complete CC immunity is a terrible design choice for multiple reasons, and yet here we are.

2 hours ago, screddev14 said:

That doesn't mean that "dead" should be the only CC that works.

Say it louder for the developers in the back

 

[Misaania]

I should jump in here because over the past 2 days I've been very active in discussion. 

CC and killing abilities should be different in that CC should be wider and better more effective against stronger groups of enemies, killing abilities should be either slower, weaker to groups or weaker against stronger enemies.

The fact of the matter is that all three subsets of CC are contrary to killing abilities, it's just completely ineffective to eximus units the way the are designed and ends up going against point three.

How do we fix it? Honestly it should be a two pronged approach. Overguard on enemies and warframes are both problems.

Let's be real overguard for allies is better than the likes of Qorvex status immunity. CC should strip 1k overguard from allied warframes/pets.

Enemies it should outright strip the overguard. The reason for this is simple; CC does as designed but is incapable of killing without intervention in the shape of killing abilities or weapons. Killing abilities do what's on the tin, they deal damage and have an extra bar to go through. In the case of warframes that focus on damage they can absolutely be more efficient than CC but theoretically they would slow down based on the challenge of the mission. CC should be consistent regardless of the difficulty.

[VoyrenTV]

Easy, make overguard just a bonus to shield and armor - Done.
No cc immunity, but status immunity maybe?
Make it, so that Corpus Eximus have shield while grineer have armor (Overguard equivalent) - Infested could get tons of raw health?
Make it that overguard on enemies is high - Like really hight. So that Eximus units are still a threat in certain situations.
Make it so that frame without shield or with shields at 0 are treated alike even when they have active overguard (Abilities and stuff like chroma etc)
Frames with shield could get the 'corpus overguard' frames without the 'grineer overguard'.

Easy, fast - Nobody would complain.

 

But that would make people happy.
So DE will not do that.

Edited April 6 by VoyrenTV

[moondog548]

Sorry, I wasn't explicit, but I meant "the best CC is dead" as pointing out an obvious *flaw* in the game.

[wkc328]

Overguard makes CC frames useless，like Limbo. DE should rework old time CC frames rather than strengthen the status immunity.

[owendawgx]

I'll be completely honest. If you think CC is "dead" or "bad" or "weak" in Warframe, you are not very good at this game. Full stop. This is without question, 100% a skill-issue. You describe an issue with an Archimdea modifier granting all enemy units overguard, but that is exactly one place in the entire game where you will encounter that. If it's problematic, give feedback on that modifier. But realistically, those modifiers are MEANT to be brutal. That's the whole point. 

As for CC in the rest of the game, it's completely fine. CC when left unchecked completely ruins this game and makes it not worth playing or engaging in at all because it removes any and all threat to the player or objective. With overguard, it can still do that, just not against the really tough eximus units. You can learn to play around that. Prioritize eximus, bring tools for breaking their overguard quickly, take advantage of the bonuses provided by rolling to your survivability so that you don't die.

If you're having trouble surviving on very CC-centric frames, try the newly buffed Fast Deflection and Vigilante Vigor (together) so that if your shields break from the eximus that are immune to your CC, you just dodge out of damage for .2 seconds before you get shields back again. 

CC is fantastic for both the survivability of you and your teammates in any game mode, as well as for the objective in game modes like Mobile Defense, Excavation, Interception, Mirror Defense, etc. etc. 

On 2024-04-06 at 5:12 PM, moondog548 said:

Sorry, I wasn't explicit, but I meant "the best CC is dead" as pointing out an obvious *flaw* in the game.

It isn't. This is just objectively untrue, and shows that you don't know as much about the game as you think you do. If enemies are dead, they respawn, and can find and shoot you again. If they're CC'd, they don't respawn, and can't do anything to you. Back in the day in Law of Retribution or excavation, people would ask you NOT to kill enemies when you had a frame like Nova or Vauban in the group, because doing so would allow more enemies to spawn who weren't CC'd, which was worse than just leaving the totally helpless enemies alone. Eximus (and overguard) are vital to any degree of difficulty in this game. 

1 hour ago, wkc328 said:

Overguard makes CC frames useless，like Limbo. DE should rework old time CC frames rather than strengthen the status immunity.

It doesn't. If overguard didn't exist, frames like Limbo would trivialize every single mission in this game that didn't have nullifiers in it. Frames like Limbo and Vauban and Nova all still provide an incredible benefit to the squad with their CC, and can be played to great effect at higher levels. 

[moondog548]

15 hours ago, owendawgx said:

I'll be completely honest. If you think CC is "dead" or "bad" or "weak" in Warframe, you are not very good at this game. Full stop. This is without question, 100% a skill-issue. You describe an issue with an Archimdea modifier granting all enemy units overguard, but that is exactly one place in the entire game where you will encounter that. If it's problematic, give feedback on that modifier. But realistically, those modifiers are MEANT to be brutal. That's the whole point. 

As for CC in the rest of the game, it's completely fine. CC when left unchecked completely ruins this game and makes it not worth playing or engaging in at all because it removes any and all threat to the player or objective. With overguard, it can still do that, just not against the really tough eximus units. You can learn to play around that. Prioritize eximus, bring tools for breaking their overguard quickly, take advantage of the bonuses provided by rolling to your survivability so that you don't die.

If you're having trouble surviving on very CC-centric frames, try the newly buffed Fast Deflection and Vigilante Vigor (together) so that if your shields break from the eximus that are immune to your CC, you just dodge out of damage for .2 seconds before you get shields back again. 

CC is fantastic for both the survivability of you and your teammates in any game mode, as well as for the objective in game modes like Mobile Defense, Excavation, Interception, Mirror Defense, etc. etc. 

It isn't. This is just objectively untrue, and shows that you don't know as much about the game as you think you do. If enemies are dead, they respawn, and can find and shoot you again. If they're CC'd, they don't respawn, and can't do anything to you. Back in the day in Law of Retribution or excavation, people would ask you NOT to kill enemies when you had a frame like Nova or Vauban in the group, because doing so would allow more enemies to spawn who weren't CC'd, which was worse than just leaving the totally helpless enemies alone. Eximus (and overguard) are vital to any degree of difficulty in this game. 

It doesn't. If overguard didn't exist, frames like Limbo would trivialize every single mission in this game that didn't have nullifiers in it. Frames like Limbo and Vauban and Nova all still provide an incredible benefit to the squad with their CC, and can be played to great effect at higher levels. 

With all due respect, all you said was that you appreciate and enjoy CC as it currently exists in warframe.  And that's all well and good, I don't begrudge you that, and I don't even dispute anything you've said about the SPECIFIC effectiveness of certain frames in certain situations.

Aside from some poetic hyperbole, no one is claiming that CC is worthless. They're saying that the game design as a whole undermines and discourages it, often explicitly in the form of overgaurd which becomes more and more prevelent as the level of content gets higher.

But aside from saying "the best CC is dead" isn't true, you didn't actually dispute it-- EXCEPT in some very very niche instances where re-spawning enemies is undesirable (long SP endless missions where you have decided that you don't want to just start over).  In all other situations, killing enemies asap is preferable according to the design of the game. They're not hurting you and they've given you loot and affinity, and they've proc'd skills and arcanes etc, and you've advanced the kill-guys-meter in many mission types.  CC does none of that except stop them from hurting you.

So yeah, the SYSTEM OVERALL needs improvement, so that the CC situation you love and appreciate is actually fostered and appreciated by the game mechanics.

Edited April 8 by moondog548
clarifying some sentances

[_Anise_]

my suggestion was casting a CC ability would eat a percentage chunk out of a targets overguard (say 25%) rounded up and with a grace timer so it would only make a target immune to cc for so many CC casts

[Harutomata]

I think a better way to handle it would be reduced duration, maybe either scaling with ability duration or ability strength to some extent, so that having effective CC would need some reasonable investment. It should also be checked for each ability because for some warframes CC is a main role, and not an ability on the side, so for those it should be more effective.

On topic, CC design has two extremes, one is where it trivializes everything, and the other extreme is where playing anything but DPS invalidates the incentive of other roles. Currently we're closer to the latter extreme because before that it was the other extreme. There should be a middle ground to go for.

If eximi are supposed to be a threat that disincentivizes ability usage, then they should also make weapon buffs not do extra damage on them and abilities and exalted weapons do 0 damage against them. Ok I'm joking with this part just to show how discriminatory the current design is against pure CC frames and builds.
Ironically the longer a mission goes on the more incentive there would be for CC, but instead it increases the number of eximi so it's like DE made sure CC frames really don't get a slice of the pie.
I understand why the eximus rework happened, it just wasn't the right solution to the problem. It wasn't the middle ground.

[Aruquae]

Agreed, you would think DE would have better options than nuking if they’re against it, but it seems not. It’s like they only want room nuking with how they treat CC.