Jade Shadows - Dev Workshop: Enemy Resistances and Status Rework (Updated with May Devstream!)

[SorenLuon]

the buffs to cold are exciting but i just wanted to point out that Yareli’s abilities say they do cold dmg, but you never actually see the proc pop up on enemies nor the effects. these cold buffs would be a great buff for her if her abilities actually did cold damage. is this intentional that they dont? or is it not. just wanted to ask here and be sure cause it would be a shame if she didnt get to take advantage of these cold buffs

[DstroyR]

17 часов назад, VENDOMINUS сказал:

You can kill lv.9999 corupted jackal with just a 7X7 amp as long as you have persistent attrition. With more decrees like corrosive shots, cold on crit and such it become fast even.

Oh... If with THIS amp, with THIS focus school, with THIS ammount of THIS decrees it is may be not a problem, so... is It not a problem EVER for EVERYONE with ANY conditions?
Plz. note, that It is not case about "what to do with 9999 lvl Jackal if no ammo", but about way of possibly reworking of Cold.
I`m afraid that you miss my point where corrupted Jackal is no more than just example of current effectiveness of Cold against some VIP targets. So, if DEvs anouncements means than VIPs like corrupted Jackal will be completely immune for all cold effects, instead current state, i can predict that cold will be nearly useles in cases where it remarcable helpfull now.

[DstroyR]

3 часа назад, SorenLuon сказал:

the buffs to cold are exciting but i just wanted to point out that Yareli’s abilities say they do cold dmg, but you never actually see the proc pop up on enemies nor the effects. these cold buffs would be a great buff for her if her abilities actually did cold damage. is this intentional that they dont? or is it not. just wanted to ask here and be sure cause it would be a shame if she didnt get to take advantage of these cold buffs

Same thing with Mag. All of her abilityes are magnetic-based, but no magnetic procs from them, ever. My only question WHY? Some warframes are capable to apply statuses with abilityes, and some warframes not capable to do same. So, it is obviously that waframes which capable to inflict statuses are got unexcusing advantage before warframes which are noncapable to do this.

[Moiner]

This change : will go "viral"

[Bvf-Delta2249]

On 2024-04-26 at 1:19 PM, NovaUmbral said:

all you have to do is nerf Toxin. As long as Toxin is present and capable against corpus, Magnetic will never see the light of day and remain as an objectively bad elemental combination.

Nerfing toxin a bit wouldn't do you'd need to completely remove toxins ability to bypass shields for magnetic to ever be used

[SorenLuon]

8 hours ago, DstroyR said:

Same thing with Mag. All of her abilityes are magnetic-based, but no magnetic procs from them, ever. My only question WHY? Some warframes are capable to apply statuses with abilityes, and some warframes not capable to do same. So, it is obviously that waframes which capable to inflict statuses are got unexcusing advantage before warframes which are noncapable to do this.

yeah i didnt even think of mag but yes. then theres characters like frost and hydroid who do exactly as their abilities say. idk if the devs will see this but i hope they do to actually implement this stuff into the characters. itll bring more character out of them and make them more worth playing

[Atserolf]

Le 30/04/2024 à 14:07, Orokin a dit :

10k and 100k armor are not "practically the same". I encourage you (and the developers) to look into how to calculate EHP and see how these armor values are not the same at all.

You are misunderstanding how armor works. Please figure out how to calculate EHP and adjust your opinion. 

Can you explain ? I checked the wiki and he is right.

[Chroia]

First and foremost:
I am positively thrilled that you're looking at Damage 2.0.
It won't, alone, fix the game, but it's one of the fundamental issues lying at the core.

At a glance, 2 things:

1) You don't seem to be addressing, or addressing the difference between, damage types and their status effects, specifically Viral and its outsized impact of being a universal damage amp debuff.

Similarly, I hope you're keeping in mind the implicit anti-combinations, e.g. Magnetic disallows Viral or Cold.

Relatedly, I hope you're keeping in mind upfront damage (i.e. huge base damage, poor supplemental stats, e.g. pre-buff vanilla Opticor) vs. crit-based damage vs. status-based weapons - unless the intention is for all non-filler future weapons to be hybrid weapons.

2)

On 2024-04-26 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Sam said:

Damage Types and Status Effects currently encourage a meta that favors a select few Effects.

Respectfully, no.
Exponential eHP increases due to uncapped enemy armor scaling encourages a meta that favors a select few Effects - Specifically, the ones that mitigate or bypass armor. See above, re: Slash procs (with or without Viral).
This is not helped by element modifiers double dipping in the damage calc vs. armor.
The friction of having to go into your arsenal to change mod configs (let alone specific mods, i.e. the Banes) just exacerbates matters.

Combine that with the proliferation of armor across all factions to """fix""" the eHP disparity of the other factions' VIPs, and yeah, 'solve armor' is hugely more valuable than elemental advantage.
 

Armored enemies getting capped armor (and subsequently DR) is excellent.
But you have a new problem - with the introduction of +corr stack archon shards, assuming you don't overhaul a component, you're going to have to balance having 10 Corr stacks vs. 13 corr stack (1 Tau) vs 14 corr stacks (2 non-Tau).

 

That said, Core issues 2 and 3 are entirely correct.

 

On 2024-04-26 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Sam said:

Here, our goal is to provide some scaling factors to Shield Regeneration and Delay, designed to create a more perceivable benefit of affecting Status Effects, particularly at a higher level. 

Does Toxin damage still bypass shields?
While shields don't have the same effect on eHP that armor does, nor do they require a proc to bypass them (which is a much lower bar).
And the more impactful you make shields, the more you incentivize using Toxin to avoid interacting with it altogether.
Which might be a design intention, I don't know.
But given that it obviates the need for - and utility of - Magnetic (damage or status), I don't think it is.

Edited May 2 by Chroia

[Orokin]

On 2024-04-30 at 7:30 PM, OrionTCB said:

Do you mean to say that going from 10k armor to 2k isn't only a DR% side of things, since total EHP is also reduced ? Yeah I know. Going from 10k armor to 2k (using 10 Corrosive stacks) reduces the total DR% of ~97% to ~87%, which means that if you have 10k HP, your EHP would go down from ~333k EHP to ~77k EHP → the whole thing got divided by ~4.

Now that I read it again, I think you were talking about the scaling of armor vs level that is "non-linear" which is a problem, which I agree with. Current armor scaling brings EHP to a point that requires the use of armor strip or armor ignore, because EHP vs level for an enemy with armor scales by approximately constant * level ^ 1.25. Though I am now confused as to what they are doing because this specific point as mentioned on the devstream was not about armor vs level scaling, but about DR being "bottom heavy" (which does not mean much). And this is where my comment comes from - EHP scales linearly with armor, EHP scales non-linearly with level which as you said forces a certain meta.

I disagree that "linearizing" DR% vs armor is the solution (which I believe is what they are actually planning to do). The problem with this is that it non-linearizes EHP vs armor. This means that partial strip has a disproportionate impact, and it introduces actual diminishing returns to armor strip. This diminishing return armor strip is similar to how old corrosive procs used to work.

There is nothing inherently wrong with how corrosive works right now. It will linearly decrease TTK/EHP relative to the amount of armor removed. The problem is that the huge amount of armor enemies have means that slash procs are almost always better.

To me the only problem is the fact that armor scales with level. A cap solves that, the other stuff, to me, is unnecessary.

[Xaikii]

Greetings,

I would like to also add my 2 cents, ideas and expectations.
When I learned about the Balance being adjusted by adjusting Armor and Statuses, I was to say the least... thrilled.
But that kind of dropped again when I saw the specific suggestions.

Reducing the Armor of Enemies is definitely a good thing and opens up new viability for builds and general gameplay.
Warframe shouldn't be revolving around "elitists", so dropping the bar of learning and practice is always a win at least in my book.

The problem I see however is the approach to counteract it.
Increasing the HP of the enemies really seems like a simple yet ineffective way of "fixing" it.
It yet just adds onto the damage mindset, the solution for everything is more or less damage.
Integrating Statuses into the calculation is once again being left out.

Hence my incoming suggestion I call "Outer guard" which is inspired by the intentions of "Overguard".
In it's idea it would REPLACE the HP increases of enemies.
But what would it do?
A layer of damage mitigation that can be stripped down with the pure existence of Debuffs and Immobilization or by focusing the weak points.
This damage mitigation would apply whenever an Enemy is hurt without it being a Weak Point or trying to reach the Weak Point. Neither is it proc'ing for non-projectile Melee Attacks or when the enemy has no weak points!

That means, hitting a headshot will automatically return the damage as is, without "Outer guard" proc'ing.
Further example:

• Nox Helmet/Head
• Thumper Leg Armor
• Necramech Arms
• General Headshots
• Rogue Culervin Arms

What counts as Debuff?
Anything that makes the entity worse, including:

• Puncture
• Heat
• Cold
• Blast
• Viral
• Corrosive
• Magnetic
• Disarm
• Silence
• Slow

What counts as Immobilization?
Anything that assists the player in majorly surviving by mitigating damage opportunities, mostly by as name says Immobilizing them literally:

• Freeze 
• Radiation
• Big Stagger
• Knockdown
• Lifted
• Ragdoll
• Sleep
• Stun
• Petrified

Let's get down to the math, shall we?

Spoiler

Formula:

[DamageReceived] *= 0.99815^Factor
[Factor] = (EntityLevel/(1+NumImmobilization)) - (UniqueDebuffs*UniqueDebuffs)

This damage mitigation is applied final and does "double-dip" on Statuses.

To give a summary for those that don't want to get into detail of this Suggestion:

• Slash and other DoTs would be nerfed if it was not proc'ed on a weakpoint by mitigating it's damage twice(once when applied and another time when dealing damage).
• AoE is generally nerfed in the late game
• Does what Overguard was supposed to do
  • Makes Statuses viable
  • Encourages to respect the Enemies gimmicks and weak points
• Does not interfere with existing systems
• Straight-forward
• Scales with EnemyLevel and hence makes "long-survival" runs harder again without turning them into pure bullet-sponges
• Performance-wise easily cacheable with ((64+16)*9999) bits of usage equal to 0.1 Megabytes for a system that could be usable everywhere

That's it from me
Cheers

[Saurtos]

I think there's a lot to chew on here and I like a lot of what the dev team is proposing. That said I think there are some facets that jump out at me as possibly needing some extra consideration.

Gas
Currently the way gas procs are applied the newer applications always replace the older ones, even if they are of lower damage. This makes gas a difficult element to meaningfully commit to since anyone else running it competes with you for the proc damage. Might be worth letting gas stack endlessly but only growing in size for the first few, similar to how heat only armor strips on the first application but lets the damage build up. 

Magnetic
I definitely like the idea of magnetic doing more to enemies with shields, but it needs to do more than just amplifying damage to shields when toxin can just bypass them. The idea of magnetic damage doing more to nullifiers is definitely good, but I think it is gonna end up needing a bit more.

If a non-damage option is desired then preventing an enemy with magnetic procs from triggering alarms or calling for help could be interesting.

If a damage option is desired then magnetic could also provide an increase to health damage of to enemies with shields (probably less than the bonus it provides to shields). This could make magnetic a bit more generally useful and provide an incentive to use it alongside toxin.

 

[MaxAltair]

Il y a 11 heures, Xaikii a dit :

Greetings,

I would like to also add my 2 cents, ideas and expectations.
When I learned about the Balance being adjusted by adjusting Armor and Statuses, I was to say the least... thrilled.
But that kind of dropped again when I saw the specific suggestions.

Reducing the Armor of Enemies is definitely a good thing and opens up new viability for builds and general gameplay.
Warframe shouldn't be revolving around "elitists", so dropping the bar of learning and practice is always a win at least in my book.

The problem I see however is the approach to counteract it.
Increasing the HP of the enemies really seems like a simple yet ineffective way of "fixing" it.
It yet just adds onto the damage mindset, the solution for everything is more or less damage.
Integrating Statuses into the calculation is once again being left out.

Hence my incoming suggestion I call "Outer guard" which is inspired by the intentions of "Overguard".
In it's idea it would REPLACE the HP increases of enemies.
But what would it do?
A layer of damage mitigation that can be stripped down with the pure existence of Debuffs and Immobilization or by focusing the weak points.
This damage mitigation would apply whenever an Enemy is hurt without it being a Weak Point or trying to reach the Weak Point. Neither is it proc'ing for non-projectile Melee Attacks or when the enemy has no weak points!

That means, hitting a headshot will automatically return the damage as is, without "Outer guard" proc'ing.
Further example:

• Nox Helmet/Head
• Thumper Leg Armor
• Necramech Arms
• General Headshots
• Rogue Culervin Arms

What counts as Debuff?
Anything that makes the entity worse, including:

• Puncture
• Heat
• Cold
• Blast
• Viral
• Corrosive
• Magnetic
• Disarm
• Silence
• Slow

What counts as Immobilization?
Anything that assists the player in majorly surviving by mitigating damage opportunities, mostly by as name says Immobilizing them literally:

• Freeze 
• Radiation
• Big Stagger
• Knockdown
• Lifted
• Ragdoll
• Sleep
• Stun
• Petrified

Let's get down to the math, shall we?

  Révéler le contenu masqué

Formula:

[DamageReceived] *= 0.99815^Factor
[Factor] = (EntityLevel/(1+NumImmobilization)) - (UniqueDebuffs*UniqueDebuffs)

This damage mitigation is applied final and does "double-dip" on Statuses.

To give a summary for those that don't want to get into detail of this Suggestion:

• Slash and other DoTs would be nerfed if it was not proc'ed on a weakpoint by mitigating it's damage twice(once when applied and another time when dealing damage).
• AoE is generally nerfed in the late game
• Does what Overguard was supposed to do
  • Makes Statuses viable
  • Encourages to respect the Enemies gimmicks and weak points
• Does not interfere with existing systems
• Straight-forward
• Scales with EnemyLevel and hence makes "long-survival" runs harder again without turning them into pure bullet-sponges
• Performance-wise easily cacheable with ((64+16)*9999) bits of usage equal to 0.1 Megabytes for a system that could be usable everywhere

That's it from me
Cheers

Interesting... but actually we have enemies with overguard, what they have to do is replace normal units with eximus units as lvls goes higher... they are bigger and heavier units with a lot of HP and overguard , let minor units as they are.
Devs want to simplificate things.... but im not sure if this is a good step.

 

[MaxAltair]

Le 30/04/2024 à 07:23, Neightrix a dit :

The last part is the actual numbers themselves. I'm not sure I want a system where every enemy within a given faction has identical weaknesses.

Im really worried about this.... its the most silly idea have seen... WF is a Mature game, not a kids game. I like variety of enemies with different composition, I love type charts and deal with different enemy combinations. You know how silly sounds that a piece of metal have the same properties than a humaoid/biological unit? Are DEVs y throwing the logic to the void? I dont want another pokemon logic game, if that's even comparable.
Then we have faction mods... If some folks doest have time/effort to build properly. I think thats enough
 

Edited May 3 by MaxAltair
k

[Xaikii]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb MaxAltair:

Interesting... but actually we have enemies with overguard, what they have to do is replace normal units with eximus units as lvls goes higher... they are bigger and heavier units with a lot of HP and overguard , let minor units as they are.
Devs want to simplificate things.... but im not sure if this is a good step.

 

Overguard lost its cause.
It is now just another way to make enemies tankier/more difficult and gutters the entire Status/CC department.

Making more enemies into Eximus makes the game objectively worse with visual clutter, no safe spaces and bullet sponges all around.

[Luigispikachu]

10 hours ago, MaxAltair said:

Im really worried about this.... its the most silly idea have seen... WF is a Mature game, not a kids game. I like variety of enemies with different composition, I love type charts and deal with different enemy combinations. You know how silly sounds that a piece of metal have the same properties than a humaoid/biological unit? Are DEVs y throwing the logic to the void? I dont want another pokemon logic game, if that's even comparable.
Then we have faction mods... If some folks doest have time/effort to build properly. I think thats enough
 

Brother, you do realise that besides you nobody really bothered with the system? 

 

Also Pokémon logic? What backwards logic are YOU operating on. Smh

[insanitybit]

Just want to throw another "Gas definitely needs a buff" into the ring. Right now people use Gas fairly reluctantly, and it's not the visuals that are the issue. Gas could use a range buf and a duration buff in order to stay true to its initial goals, and it should take weapon mods into account as well for DPS. Right now ti sort of fails in a lot of ways, including in terms of its core gameplay mechanics (lasting AoE - short range, low duration means it's not doing what it's supposed to do).

I'm extremely hopeful for cold getting buffed.

[BalaDeSilver]

18 hours ago, insanitybit said:

Just want to throw another "Gas definitely needs a buff" into the ring. Right now people use Gas fairly reluctantly, and it's not the visuals that are the issue. Gas could use a range buf and a duration buff in order to stay true to its initial goals, and it should take weapon mods into account as well for DPS. Right now ti sort of fails in a lot of ways, including in terms of its core gameplay mechanics (lasting AoE - short range, low duration means it's not doing what it's supposed to do).

I'm extremely hopeful for cold getting buffed.

Actually, it's really high damage with a good enough range which can headshot (it makes sense, that's where most people's noses are).

The problem really is that 10 stack cap, it's always the last 10 stacks inflicted, which aren't necessarily the most powerful procs you can get. If you stack gas 10 times with a very powerful weapon that deals high damage per shot in an enemy, then someone else who's using gas in a high fire rate but low damage per shot weapon gets the 10 stacks, they get replaced by low damage gas stacks. It is very hard to work with gas due to this, and its variability isn't good because someone else can screw your damage over.

They should either uncap gas or make the stacks smarter, keeping the 10 highest damage stacks and refreshing the duration whenever gas is procced on an enemy. Either will do.

[Yogolo]

Looks great, I was hoping for one day for DE to tackle the status rework but I did not expect armor changes for Grineer. Reading the post and most of the comments I'm overall positive about this change. 

Quote

Cold
Our goal with Cold is to emphasize the effectiveness of the fantasy of slowing and freezing your enemies.

Cold now has a new effect where you freeze your enemies upon reaching the new Cold stack maximum.

• Cold has a new stack cap!
  • Freezes enemies for a few seconds after inflicting full Cold stacks.
• While Frozen, Critical Damage is greatly increased.
  • How do Frozen enemies deal with additional damage?
    • Do not regenerate Shields.
    • Weapons and Warframes that deal Cold will be updated to reflect this new behaviour.
    • Freeze may synergize with other Status Effects, such as Bleed.
• VIP enemies (Acolytes, Bosses, etc.) cannot be completely frozen; they’ll also be immune to the frozen-inflicted Critical Damage increase, naturally.

Cold as standalone damage type and status effect is powerful as a complementary tool but because it's a requirment for Viral it should be even stronger. The fact that this new freeze effect may interact with other status effect such as bleed is really nice. Stuff like these is what I wanted in the game. Another great example is current Blast requiring you to use heat and cold to get worse damage type, worse status effect and losing two strong elements. (Heat, Viral)

 

Looking forward for next update about status rework. I want to see Magnetic doing something rather than being only anti-shield. You could design more factions using shield or just make magnetic actually have useful effect against all units just like how radiation works on everything.

 

DE is cooking with this one.

Edited May 5 by Yogolo

[(PSN)rexis12]

I think the funniest thing reading the thread is the common worry of:

"Won't Grineer be too tanky if you scaled up the health"

Which confused the hell out of me, considering how a pretty common complaint is how paper mache they are without armor. 

Edited May 5 by (PSN)rexis12

[BalaDeSilver]

Late addition, but *some* Infested having armor so Hildryn isn't a dead weight would be good too...

[Nebbers]

These proposed changes sound really fun. One thing I'd love to see from magnetic would be a sort of glue mechanic on enemies. We have lots of tools (including new fun arcanes) for vortexing enemies together, but I think it'd be neat for Magnetic procs to keep enemies from being able to pull themselves apart if they're both procced and they happen to touch (such as from a vortex ability or arcane)

[MaxAltair]

Some modifications to the current enemy compositions needs to be. But not simplify in a silly way like "If its grineer, its weak to X element" Remember, we have currently faction mods for this!
BTW Im think a clarification to How armor works and would look more intuitive.

Why DONT TURN ARMOR AN HP Bar? Similar to overguard or shields but with different features.

Armor absorbs damage Scalating with enemy Lvl.

THIS IS AN EXAMPLE:
A lvl 50 Heavy Gunner: 2232 Armor, 8238 Health(Flesh)
Damage reduction: 88.15%

YOu have to get rid of armor first...but Armor DR% gets lower as armor gets Destroyed. If enemy has 50% armor remaining DR% gets cut in half! then to 25%...
So at 2232 Armor = 88.15% DamageReduction
At 1116 Armor: 44.07% DR

At 558 Armor: 22.03% DR%

At 0 Armor =  0%

In that way You can strip Armor without going corrosive as a rule. But yes it will destroy armor faster. 10 Procs of corrosive will Strip armor to 80% as usual.
Additionally, since flesh is protected with armor until its destroyed, Flesh weakness don´t apply until armor is Down!
But, you can actually Bypass Armor, if you hit Weak points!

So lets say you hit Heavy Gunner into the head, it takes direct damage to HP. Some enemies may have not weak points, Area of Effect would not apply to weak points, as usual, only direct hits.

But i see this way more intuitive, since Armor may be confused as an additional Health with its own weakness, resistances. Just look the codex many newbies may think the same.

 

 

[Kainosh]

I think Blast should interact with finishers.

If enemy has Blast proc + Finisher proc, it just explodes.   Use blast to finish enemies at range.    Without Finisher, blast will just stack and do whatever it does now (- accuracy iirc)

[BalaDeSilver]

Won't blast just be "whether a stack is gained, the hit that procced the stack deals 10 * the stacked amount% damage to enemies in x meters of the target"? That'd de cool and balanced, since it would only be 10% damage in 1 meter to 100% damage in 10 meters, which is not a lot, for the effort it takes, plus it doesn't spread status, only damage.

Remember: blast will still be a horrible damage type after the rework, most things are neutral to resistant to it.

Edited May 6 by BalaDeSilver

[insanitybit]

It would be nice to see Magnetic get a little bit more of a buff. Right now it's useless against 2/3 factions in the game and very arguably useless against Corpus too (because Toxin bypasses shields). Give it *something* more than just impact on shields/ nullifier bubbles. The proposed changes won't make magnetic useful as far as I can tell.

Maybe something like: enemies with magnetic procs get pulled together. Increased procs will add increased strength an AoE, with 10 procs creating a magnetic pull. Enemies with shields could be immune to this effect but once the shields are gone the effect takes place.

I think it's important to remember that Magnetic is competing against Corrosive and Viral since it's got underlying electric and Cold, so it had better be *actually* good if the goal is for anyone to use it.

Edited May 6 by insanitybit