Change Elemental Mod Binding Order Logic

[Gelos.Prime]

I would like to add Viral and Gas to a weapon, but this is currently impossible when combining Elemental mods.  A simple, logical change to the Elemental binding logic would fix this issue.

Currently, on a weapon with no innate Elemental damage, the Elemental mod orders below show the resulting Elemental damage:

Mod Order 1:  Toxin, Cold, Toxin, Heat = Viral & Heat

Mod Order 2:  Toxin, Cold, Heat, Toxin = Viral & Heat

The problem lies in the fact that in Mod Order 2 above, the Toxin mod on the end does not bind with the Heat mod immediately in front of it, but rather it binds with the earlier Toxin mod, adding more damage to the Viral element.

What I would like the modified behavior to be is:

Mod Order 1:  Toxin, Cold, Toxin, Heat = Viral & Heat

Mod Order 2:  Toxin, Cold, Heat, Toxin = Viral & Gas

In Mod Order 1, the 2nd Toxin mod would continue to bind with the earlier Toxin mod, resulting in higher Viral damage.  However, in Mod Order 2, the Toxin mod at the end would find the unbound Heat mod in front of it and bind with that, resulting in Gas damage.

This change would also affect other Elemental combinations that are currently impossible to configure (which I won't go into here) but implementing it would make them possible as well.
 

[quxier]

Someone with old knowledge should correct and add more info. It was called rainbow builds, you added all or many elements. They changed it. Why? Maybe they didn't like it. I don't know if they want it again.

[Zakkhar]

I think current HCET system is pretty good. I do not see how it is a problem.

HCET system

 

4 hours ago, Gelos.Prime said:

Mod Order 2:  Toxin, Cold, Heat, Toxin = Viral & Gas

Not possible to have these two elements with combining basic ones (you can get Viral or Gas from innate damage or mod Viral for one specific weapon).

Possible Damage combinations

Having constraints in your building strategy is nothing bad, it actually promotes weapon variety.

Edited May 15 by Zakkhar

[Gelos.Prime]

The overall design of the HCET system is fine.  My point is that its Elemental mod binding logic could and should be improved.

Slash, Heat, Gas and Toxin are damage types that stack on Viral status effects.  For a weapon with no innate Elemental damage, I can easily configure it with Viral & Heat.  However, with the current binding logic for Elemental mods, there is no way to configure that same weapon with Viral & Gas or Viral & Toxin.

To me, it is illogical for the game to provide a material damage capability such as Viral & Gas or Viral & Toxin, but then not provide the ability to configure a single weapon accordingly.  We can do so with Viral & Heat.  So why not Viral & Gas or Viral & Toxin?

[(PSN)Sentiel]

6 minutes ago, Gelos.Prime said:

The overall design of the HCET system is fine.  My point is that its Elemental mod binding logic could and should be improved.

The HCET system is not fine at all. Elements should combine only based on their source which should have the priority system applied to it instead of the elements themselves.

Here's an example why: 

As for your idea, I quite like it as long as it involves multiple sources of the same element. The elements should combine by their mod order and the combinations should be locked once created so they cannot be interfered with by other mods.

So, for example if you have a Magnus and give it Convulsion and Heated Charge, it should combine to make Radiation. If you then add Jolt, it should enhance the Radiation, but if you add Pathogen Rounds after Jolt they should combine to create Corrosive.

This can open many modding possibilities but at the cost of extra mod space, so it seems fair at first glance.

[quxier]

5 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Having constraints in your building strategy is nothing bad, it actually promotes weapon variety.

*Meanwhile Warframe players*: slap most common X, Y, Z and avoid other stuff.

For variety we need options to be more or less powerful. Sure, I can mod for "roll crit arcane & co" but I can just slap some damage & stuff.

Sadly options in WF are worse in some, I would say, big part. Why would I do something different where I can do something simpler and better?

 

To be honest, in this case it would add something to variety. I could for example mod for magnetic for my Melee vortex + viral.

[Zakkhar]

4 hours ago, Gelos.Prime said:

there is no way to configure that same weapon with Viral & Gas or Viral & Toxin.

Why does it have to be the same weapon? Synergy happens even when it is not. Nobody checks for that! You can have viral/heat on sentinel primer, toxin on primary and gas on the melee. Only option to achieve that on same weapon is Secondary Encumber | WARFRAME Wiki | Fandom

My Kuva Nukor has innate rad, lich mag, modded viral+heat, as well as weapon specific microwave - the arcane can add anything from puncture to gas.

Edited May 15 by Zakkhar

[Gelos.Prime]

5 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Why does it have to be the same weapon?

It has to be the same weapon because variety is one of the benefits of implementing this change, both in terms of weapon usage and Elemental damage configurations.

There are literally hundreds of weapons without innate Elemental damage that are not well-suited to various combinations of missions and opponents and currently there are limits to the variety of Elemental damage that can be placed on those weapons.  Currently, one of those limits is only being able to add Viral & Heat to a weapon and not being able to add Viral & Gas or Viral & Toxin.  Enabling this ability would open up usage of a large number of weapons, suddenly making them far more practical for higher-level content.

I understand that weapon swapping is a workaround to address this issue, but that's all it is:  A workaround.  This straightforward change would open up the game for a large number of weapons and make weapon swapping an option, not a requirement.

[Birdframe_Prime]

40 minutes ago, Gelos.Prime said:

This straightforward change would open up the game for a large number of weapons and make weapon swapping an option, not a requirement.

Okay, while I get what you're saying, I think you're missing an essential point here:

DE want it this way.

This is what's called in the industry a 'deliberate design limitation'. This is done to prevent things that you don't want overlapping from overlapping, and to enforce that only specific exceptions are allowed to have specific combinations of a thing in the game.

When they changed away from Rainbow Builds the specific reason for them doing that was DE didn't want us being able to use everything at once.

So they chose which elements would combine to specifically limit the combinations that could be achieved.

Nowadays there are ways to absolutely break this, where a weapon might have innate Corrosive on it, and you can mod on Viral, Heat and Radiation with four mods, which makes it perfect for building up the Condition Overload effect. Add in a frame like Lavos, who can add the element from his Passive onto the weapon on top, and you could then add any one of the other elements to make something like Gas or Blast out of the Heat, or even add them as an extra effect independently by making them in the Passive.

But the basic idea is that, outside of using Abilities, or weapons with innate Elements, you are not supposed to have the option to combine certain elements together.

It's intentional game design and unlikely to change.

I hope that you understand that this isn't me saying your idea is bad, just that the explanation from DE was quite clear in that they want it to be this way and you're probably not going to get any traction with the idea of directly going against that stated design choice.

[Zakkhar]

5 hours ago, Gelos.Prime said:

There are literally hundreds of weapons without innate Elemental damage that are not well-suited to various combinations of missions and opponents and currently there are limits to the variety of Elemental damage that can be placed on those weapons.  Currently, one of those limits is only being able to add Viral & Heat to a weapon and not being able to add Viral & Gas or Viral & Toxin.  Enabling this ability would open up usage of a large number of weapons, suddenly making them far more practical for higher-level content.

So basically you repeated what you said earlier. Maybe wait for the Enemy Vulnerabilities rework, which kinda indicates that DE doesnt want the need to use all those elements?

Edited May 15 by Zakkhar