Warframes with Overguard-giving abilities (Dante, Styanax) can be really UNFUN to get matched with. Many players don't want Overguard. No sense of urgency.

[SprinKah]

I think that a lot of players can understand this sentiment, a lot of the times, we simply DON'T WANT to be indiscriminately given TOO MUCH or ANY Overguard at all.

I understand that Overguard overall is a good thing to have, but to a lot of players, becoming basically invincible throughout the entire game is just simply NOT FUN. A lot of people enjoy having SOME FORM of urgency and challenge in the game WITHOUT having to play solo or do anything over the top. 

It also quite frankly, ruined fun challenges like SP Effervo max-eyes boss fight to me. 

You're just given TOO MUCH of it, 30k+ is OVERKILL. Even in lvl200+

 

At this point, it just feels like it wouldn't feel any different if every single enemy just loses the ability to deal damage. 

I think I'd be fine if there's a smaller cap on how much Overguard you can get from Styanax/Dante, I think 5000 or so would be a good middle-ground, I think that is PLENTY, with how Overguard works now (stopping spill-over damage like Shield), would also encourage Styanax/Dante to keep it up other than just be a single cast. 

 

I think at the end of the day, a lot of players (me included) just really don't like getting "absolute god-mode", like what Dante/Styanax does indiscriminately. I'm aware that Warframe has gotten to a point that it can be pretty ridiculous now....but frankly, it's so NIGHT AND DAY comparing more recent warframes to some of the older warframes in terms of how BUSTED they are. 

 

Maybe if the game's actually scaled appropriately for 2-4 players, it wouldn't be too much of an issue, I'd love it if enemies deal like 2-4x the damage.

I am aware that there are also many other warframes that are pretty broken too, and I do have an issue with a lot of them. But at the very least, a lot of the times they're at least ignorable, evadable or expirable, unlike with Overguard, 20-30k+ of it no less. 

Edited June 11 by SprinKah

[Zakkhar]

20 minutes ago, SprinKah said:

disrupts with other warframes like Chroma and such

It doesnt any more. 

 

Quote

 

Hotfix 35.5.6 (2024-04-10)

Updated Overguard Interactions With Vex Armor, Rage, & Hunter Adrenaline

As announced last week, we’ve changed how Overguard interacts with effects that benefit from receiving damage on Warframe to make it more co-op friendly. Specifically, Chroma’s Vex Armor and the Rage and Hunter Adrenaline Mods. The conversations regarding Dante’s abilities with Overguard became a driving factor to look at these interactions and find ways in which we can make them work to benefit co-op play. Overall, these changes aim to create a harmonious arrangement between the often unpredictable Overguard gains from allies and Vex Armor, Rage, and Hunter Adrenaline.

The following changes are in addition to their existing functionality.

Chroma’s Vex Armor

Previously, Overguard would prevent Chroma from benefiting from his Vex Armor buffs (since it blocked damage on Health and Shields). So, we’ve made the following change to allow players to receive the buffs through all sources of Overguard:

Now: Melee kills now grant a 15% Armor increase and ranged kills a 15% increase to Weapon Damage (doubled to 30% for ranged weak point kills).

This has the additional perk of self-sufficiency where players have far more control over the buffs, instead of having to rely on the unpredictability of damage dealt by enemies.

Rage and Hunter Adrenaline

Previously, Overguard granted by allies could prevent you from gaining Energy from these Mods (since it blocked damage dealt to Health). So, in an effort to create a more co-op friendly experience between the two, we’ve made the following change:

Now, Rage and Hunter Adrenaline can convert the Damage on Overguard granted by allies to Energy while Shields are inactive.

More specifically, they will trigger when the last source of Overguard originates from an ally (includes spawned allies, such as Specters). This allows shield-less Warframes, such as Inaros and Nidus, to be able to regenerate Energy via these Mods when they would have previously been blocked by Overguard granted by allies.

Here are the exact stat details:

• Rage: +40% (same effectiveness as the base functionality) of Damage on Overguard granted by allies to Energy while Shields are inactive.
• Hunter Adrenaline: +45% (same effectiveness as the base functionality) of Damage on Overguard granted by allies to Energy while Shields are inactive.

NOTE: Warframes that grant themselves Overguard, like Kullervo or Rhino, will not be able to trigger Rage and Hunter Adrenaline from their own Overguard. Only Overguard granted by allies is eligible because this is the only interaction that is potentially disruptive to your build (i.e your ally puts Overguard onto your Rage-Build Nidus).

 

 

[Chewarette]

22 minutes ago, SprinKah said:

Not to mention, it also disrupts with other warframes like Chroma and such. One time, I randomly joined a pub game and right out of the bat, I got 30k overguard and there was basically NO WAY for me to gain any Vex Armor buffs whatsoever, and it was simply just really boring to me not being able to be damaged or feel any sense of danger as well.

 

Quote

 

Updated Overguard Interactions With Vex Armor, Rage, & Hunter Adrenaline  

As announced last week, we’ve changed how Overguard interacts with effects that benefit from receiving damage on Warframe to make it more co-op friendly. Specifically, Chroma’s Vex Armor and the Rage and Hunter Adrenaline Mods. The conversations regarding Dante’s abilities with Overguard became a driving factor to look at these interactions and find ways in which we can make them work to benefit co-op play. Overall, these changes aim to create a harmonious arrangement between the often unpredictable Overguard gains from allies and Vex Armor, Rage, and Hunter Adrenaline.

The following changes are in addition to their existing functionality. 

Chroma’s Vex Armor

Previously, Overguard would prevent Chroma from benefiting from his Vex Armor buffs (since it blocked damage on Health and Shields). So, we’ve made the following change to allow players to receive the buffs through all sources of Overguard: 

Now: Melee kills now grant a 15% Armor increase and ranged kills a 15% increase to Weapon Damage (doubled to 30% for ranged weak point kills). 

This has the additional perk of self-sufficiency where players have far more control over the buffs, instead of having to rely on the unpredictability of damage dealt by enemies. 

 

 

[SprinKah]

14 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

 

 

15 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

It doesnt any more. 

 

 

 

Alright, I'll retract that point of mine at least. I suppose it's not TOO bad anymore, I haven't got on Warframe for quite a while after that update came out, and I only recently got back into the game 2-3 weeks ago, playing on and off. I'll check that again, but last time I played 

But tbh I still feel like Styanax and Dante give TOO MUCH Overguard, it still basically takes away any sense of urgency the game has left, I think a lot of players still want to feel SOMEWHAT "in danger". That point still stands. 

Let's be honest, 30k+ Overguard IS OVERKILL. 

Edited June 8 by SprinKah

[vixenpixel]

What did you mean when you wrote :

"with how durable Overguard is now compared to how it was before,"

Afaik, it's still just a flat health bar with no damage reduction. Did I miss something?

[SprinKah]

1 minute ago, vixenpixel said:

What did you mean when you wrote :

"with how durable Overguard is now compared to how it was before,"

Afaik, it's still just a flat health bar with no damage reduction. Did I miss something?

Well alright, I suppose it's not much but they did make it so that it kinda stops damage going over to your other HP.shield or so, so I suppose there's that. I suppose I kinda forgot about it but yeah. 

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a 11 minutes, vixenpixel a dit :

What did you mean when you wrote :

"with how durable Overguard is now compared to how it was before,"

Afaik, it's still just a flat health bar with no damage reduction. Did I miss something?

No you didn't miss a thing. It's still a health bar with no damage reduction applicable. Damage redirection is functional though. So it has more value on warframes like Yareli and Nezha who redirect damage to Merulina and to the Warding Halo.

 

Still doesn't change it's a complaint that's made out of feelings rather than logic. You don't exactly have any form of threat to your safety if you're matchmade with a Citrine, Oberon, Hildryn or Trinity, let alone just a high strength Wisp for base SP content, yet you still only want to exclude the Overguard frames.

It's like people having issues with Volt Speed boosting the speed of the entire squad but having no issues with Thermal Spammer Titania flying to extraction with the rest of the team not keeping up and not touching a single enemy. Double Standards.

[vixenpixel]

14 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

No you didn't miss a thing. It's still a health bar with no damage reduction applicable. Damage redirection is functional though. So it has more value on warframes like Yareli and Nezha who redirect damage to Merulina and to the Warding Halo.

 

Still doesn't change it's a complaint that's made out of feelings rather than logic. You don't exactly have any form of threat to your safety if you're matchmade with a Citrine, Oberon, Hildryn or Trinity, let alone just a high strength Wisp for base SP content, yet you still only want to exclude the Overguard frames.

It's like people having issues with Volt Speed boosting the speed of the entire squad but having no issues with Thermal Spammer Titania flying to extraction with the rest of the team not keeping up and not touching a single enemy. Double Standards.

Thermal sunder spam on those easy missions makes me pick speed volt every time btw. Funny right? I think "Oh, my gyre won't ever get to do her ridiculous lightning bolt clear everything when i go through a room because everything is already dead". Well then, have fun with volt speed, dear Titania. ;D

[SprinKah]

23 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

No you didn't miss a thing. It's still a health bar with no damage reduction applicable. Damage redirection is functional though. So it has more value on warframes like Yareli and Nezha who redirect damage to Merulina and to the Warding Halo.

 

Still doesn't change it's a complaint that's made out of feelings rather than logic. You don't exactly have any form of threat to your safety if you're matchmade with a Citrine, Oberon, Hildryn or Trinity, let alone just a high strength Wisp for base SP content, yet you still only want to exclude the Overguard frames.

It's like people having issues with Volt Speed boosting the speed of the entire squad but having no issues with Thermal Spammer Titania flying to extraction with the rest of the team not keeping up and not touching a single enemy. Double Standards.

I got some issues with many warframes, but admittedly, despite having 6.5k hours into this game, I haven't gone too in-depth into too many warframes to really know the extent, and at least a lot of them are self-buffs so I couldn't care less, no matter how BS they are. But overall getting 30k+ overguard nonchalantly and constantly without end is more or less more prominent and way more noticeable of a change compared to other abilities you mentioned (Oberon, Hildryn and Trinity), at least from my personal experience.

It also might just be because the Overguard STAYS WITH YOU for the entire mission once it's given to you and will never go away, unlike most abilities of other warframes, you can't wait for it to expire or anything like that. But, I will say, I get your point.

It's still bloody annoying to get 30k+ overguard out of nowhere though. And surely, with how Overguard works now, capping it around 5k or so is a good amount, I mean...it's not like it's a one-time cast for Styanax and Dante after all. It'd be a good middle-ground, no?

Edited June 8 by SprinKah

[vixenpixel]

25 minutes ago, SprinKah said:

Well alright, I suppose it's not much but they did make it so that it kinda stops damage going over to your other HP.shield or so, so I suppose there's that. I suppose I kinda forgot about it but yeah. 

Yeah I know about the 0.5s overguard gate. I was a very active proponent for that change. But that gate actually makes low overguard more powered than high overguard. Dante's overguard regeneration on kill is actually somewhat op when there is a gate attached to having 1 overguard. 

In all honesty, Dante somewhat makes me confused of what they were thinking. I do like the frame, it's just that the little mechanics in his kit are so ridiculous it leaves me wondering if they playtested it at all.

At the same time, the design overall is amazing.

Edited June 8 by vixenpixel

[SprinKah]

Just now, vixenpixel said:

Yeah I know about the 0.5s overguard gate. I was a very active proponent for that change. But that gate actually makes low overguard more powered than high overguard. Dante's overguard regeneration on kill is actually somewhat op when there is a gate attached to having 1 overguard. 

In all honesty, Dante somewhat makes me confused of what they were thinking. I do like the frame, it's just that the little mechanics in his kit are so ridiculous it leaves me wondering if they playtested it at all.

Yeah....at least with Styanax, there's a DECENT build-up, and it's from his ULTIMATE...still ridiculous mind you.

I got into a match with a Dante and immediately got 30k overguard, that pissed me off so much. I haven't touched him or have any plan on getting him for a loooong while (cuz he doesn't look cool to me), people warned me about him when playing Netracell and oh boy, he quite lived up to it....for better or worse. 

[Caerith]

If overguard is just a flat health bar with no damage reduction, then 30k overguard is like adding 30k eHP. 

The warframe with the highest base armor, Qorvex, with +100% mods for health, armor, and shields, and a subsumed Eclipse giving 75% damage reduction, has an eHP of 40k. 

So that overguard is like having a near-maxed out Qorvex 1-2 maxed out Bonewidows tanking damage for you and preventing status and if you run out just summon another Qorvex more Bonewidows.

Edited June 8 by Caerith
Nitpicking.

[vixenpixel]

1 minute ago, SprinKah said:

Yeah....at least with Styanax, there's a DECENT build-up, and it's from his ULTIMATE...still ridiculous mind you.

I got into a match with a Dante and immediately got 30k overguard, that pissed me off so much. I haven't touched him or have any plan on getting him for a loooong while (cuz he doesn't look cool to me), people warned me about him when playing Netracell and oh boy, he quite lived up to it....for better or worse. 

He is very fun and the overguard mechanic being capped sounds like an okay idea. The real power comes from the overguard regeneration imo. It's bonkers that 1 overguard provides 0.5 gate. That's like mesmer skin as long as you can kill enemies fast. I mean. It's funner and more engaging than mesmer skin (the game's most boring ability). But in fact, it's good mesmer skin is a thing because it adds accessibility to the game for players that may not have all their physical faculties in place due to accidents or chronic disabilities. Now, Dante is not a frame that adds accessibility in the same way. He is more of a 'spam buttons' guy. But that's fun. His kit is fun. It's just that it's not very balanced imo.

[vixenpixel]

5 minutes ago, Caerith said:

If overguard is just a flat health bar with no damage reduction, then 30k overguard is like adding 30k eHP. 

The warframe with the highest base armor, Qorvex, with +100% mods for health, armor, and shields, and a subsumed Eclipse giving 75% damage reduction, has an eHP of 40k. 

So that overguard is like having a near-maxed out Qorvex tanking damage for you and preventing status and if you run out just summon another Qorvex. 

40k doesn't seem right to me, between adaptation, armor and eclipse, it should be higher. But I'm not going to do the calculations. 

[Caerith]

18 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

40k doesn't seem right to me, between adaptation, armor and eclipse, it should be higher. But I'm not going to do the calculations. 

I didn't include Adaptation?  My comment was illustrative, not "Best Qorvex Build 2024." 

Anyway I fixed it.

 

 

[SprinKah]

33 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

He is very fun and the overguard mechanic being capped sounds like an okay idea. The real power comes from the overguard regeneration imo. It's bonkers that 1 overguard provides 0.5 gate. That's like mesmer skin as long as you can kill enemies fast. I mean. It's funner and more engaging than mesmer skin (the game's most boring ability). But in fact, it's good mesmer skin is a thing because it adds accessibility to the game for players that may not have all their physical faculties in place due to accidents or chronic disabilities. Now, Dante is not a frame that adds accessibility in the same way. He is more of a 'spam buttons' guy. But that's fun. His kit is fun. It's just that it's not very balanced imo.

from what I've heard and seen, yeah...he definitely doesn't feel "balanced" xD

[Caerith]

4 minutes ago, SprinKah said:

from what I've heard and seen, yeah...he definitely doesn't feel "balanced" xD

I've used Dante a few times in Circuit and was able to quickly figure out that you can keep your entire party immortal forever just by pressing the same 3 button combo over and over.  It feels like "god mode enabled" tbh.

 

[SprinKah]

5 minutes ago, Caerith said:

I've used Dante a few times in Circuit and was able to quickly figure out that you can keep your entire party immortal forever just by pressing the same 3 button combo over and over.  It feels like "god mode enabled" tbh.

 

Yeah I can see that, after Styanax basically ruining Effervo SP max-eyes boss fight for me, I honestly felt like wanting to quit the game, at least for a while. It was so fun, until I got matched with a Styanax that basically made everything so trivial and boring...I haven't exactly gotten to really see the extent of "Mesmer Shield" yet, but Styanax with the augment was definitely one of the few "cheese" setups that were really rough to get over for me.

If Dante is really any crazier than how Styanax really is from what I've heard...frankly I'm not sure how I'd feel about the game afterwards, I haven't exactly gotten a full grasp on him yet but my first encounter with him was telling enough

[Raarsi]

I think the only circumstance in which overguard is an actual problem is when someone playing Kullervo tries to use a Rage mod or anything that gives energy off of health damage taken, and that's only because of the overguard Kullervo gives itself and not when other players give it.

Chroma doesn't need health damage taken to max out Vex Armor, and mods like Rage along with any other effects that proc from health damage taken also proc through overguard as long as that overguard comes from other players.  So are there still any actual scenarios now in which gaining overguard--additional EHP that doubles as a PSF substitute--from another player is a proper penalty, or is this just complaining about suffering from success?

[Caerith]

1 hour ago, SprinKah said:

Yeah I can see that, after Styanax basically ruining Effervo SP max-eyes boss fight for me, I honestly felt like wanting to quit the game, at least for a while. It was so fun, until I got matched with a Styanax that basically made everything so trivial and boring...I haven't exactly gotten to really see the extent of "Mesmer Shield" yet, but Styanax with the augment was definitely one of the few "cheese" setups that were really rough to get over for me.

If Dante is really any crazier than how Styanax really is from what I've heard...frankly I'm not sure how I'd feel about the game afterwards, I haven't exactly gotten a full grasp on him yet but my first encounter with him was telling enough

Playing with others always runs the risk of someone taking away all the challenge and just, like, one-shotting a boss before you even see its cutscene, even without a warframe being overpowered.

What turns me off with Dante is just how easy and overpowered he is-- and with all the whining about how "nerfed" he is I can only imagine how bad he was before.  Like, using a loaner build on Steel Path Circuit and just fumbling my way into "2,2,4 = immortality, 3,3,4 = nuke everything in that direction, repeat."  It was fun the first time, mindnumbing the second time, and when I finally built my own I didn't even bother leveling him. 

It feels like powercreep, and that's never good for a game's longevity. 

[PsiWarp]

Overguard for players should just degrade back to a base amount if left alone and not replenished by any means.

Reward the Dante for keeping up his casts, and return some semblance of urgency with reasonable hitpoint amounts to the squadmates, so that the threat of bleedout/failure remains.

[SprinKah]

26 minutes ago, Raarsi said:

I think the only circumstance in which overguard is an actual problem is when someone playing Kullervo tries to use a Rage mod or anything that gives energy off of health damage taken, and that's only because of the overguard Kullervo gives itself and not when other players give it.

Chroma doesn't need health damage taken to max out Vex Armor, and mods like Rage along with any other effects that proc from health damage taken also proc through overguard as long as that overguard comes from other players.  So are there still any actual scenarios now in which gaining overguard--additional EHP that doubles as a PSF substitute--from another player is a proper penalty, or is this just complaining about suffering from success?

I mean...from a perspective of someone who has 6.5k hours, who's been playing since 2013...who used to REALLY enjoy Warframe's gameplay way back...still do, but it's just more "button-spammy" nowadays if anything, with the combat feeling a lot less personal but more akin to "wiping off the dust on your desk"

Either way, it really depends, from my own point of view...being given basically god-mode indiscriminately, while you're basically looking to enjoy the game with SOME SEMBLANCE of URGENCY...is really not fun at all for a lot of people, at that point, what even is the point of "enemies"? Of course, it's fun to see big numbers go boom boom, but do you really think it's healthy for the game where all you do is "wipe dust off your desk" with basically no threat at all? At the end of the day, it's a shooter, not a "number generator"? Granted, everyone has different stance on this, which is why I do strive for a middle ground.

But PERSONALLY...I can say that the overkill amount of Overguard that warframes like Styanax/Dante give you...is a proper penalty, in terms of FUN. I suppose it is somewhat "suffering from success", KINDA, I wouldn't really call it "success", personally, more like a curse when getting matched with a Styanax or Dante.

18 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Overguard for players should just degrade back to a base amount if left alone and not replenished by any means.

Reward the Dante for keeping up his casts, and return some semblance of urgency with reasonable hitpoint amounts to the squadmates, so that the threat of bleedout/failure remains.

Honestly that sounds basically perfect. Styanax and Dante needs to ACTUALLY manage their casting to keep the Overguard up? Sounds reasonable to me. 

Honestly it'd be really cool if Overguard also just decays overtime yeah. 

[Raarsi]

1 hour ago, SprinKah said:

Either way, it really depends, from my own point of view...being given basically god-mode indiscriminately, while you're basically looking to enjoy the game with SOME SEMBLANCE of URGENCY...is really not fun at all for a lot of people, at that point, what even is the point of "enemies"?

Except I can look at the statistic page for last year (https://www.warframe.com/2023stats), specifically the top 3-ish warframes, and know that that argument is nonsense.

• Revenant (prime version being the most played frame of the year) literally has a button that makes them effectively immortal with barely any management (or energy) required.
• Wukong (prime version being the most played frame for a long time before the nerfs) has not one, but two i-frame abilities, which doesn't include its three "get out of death free" cards.
• Volt (prime version at third place on that list and most played frame among MR30+) may not have i-frames, but it does get built for near-infinite shields and shield gating, which may as well be immortality.

It's not "a lot of people" you're trying to make your argument for.  As the stats prove, players seem to prefer not having that "semblance of urgency", which at this point sounds more like you're simply not doing harder content like arbitrations or Deep Archimedea or any other missions where that massive chunk of overguard lasts only a matter of seconds.  On top of that, your argument would be far less nonsensical if you only focused it exclusively on Dante, as frames like Styanax and Frost 1) have to waste a mod slot for it and 2) require considerably more build-up compared to Dante easily snapping his fingers and instantly granting 15-20k+ overguard in less than two seconds.

Again, it's not "a lot of people".  It's not "many players".  You are clearly in a minority of players whining because they don't know how to challenge themselves.

Edited June 8 by Raarsi

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a 17 minutes, Raarsi a dit :

• Volt (prime version at third place on that list and most played frame among MR30+) may not have i-frames, but it does get built for near-infinite shields and shield gating, which may as well be immortality.

Not only Volt gets infinite shield gating from Capacitance but Discharge also comes with stunlocking every enemy that doesn't have overguard by default. Can't get damaged by that which can't even hit you in the first place.

Revenant being on top of the usage list is because Mesmer skin is in a completely overtuned state. Prior to its 1s iframe buff, nobody gave a flying f about the frame. Now it's become the frame with the Inaros syndrome, aka near guaranteed to never die so it encourages leeching off people have actual gear. To be clear I'm not taking a jab at Inaros players anymore, since Inaros has been reworked and is actually a good frame now, but that's what people used to play on difficult missions when they had basically no appropriate gear but still wanted to be carried. Now? It's all revs.

I guess we'll see how it plays out, but I'm guessing 2024 Warframe stats per usage will still list rev prime to be the top, even if his mesmer skin was outright removed, due to the sheer amount of usage prior to that (and so far Pablo doesn't seem to care/be aware about that situation so chances are it's not getting adressed anytime soon).

[Waeleto]

Then just leave the lobby when you get matched with them and join another ? it's not difficult