I'm starting to think Helminth is a failed mechanic

[Zakkhar]

23 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

And while it is arguably damaging to a frame's identity to slap a different ability onto it, it's also damaging to the frame that gives the ability up. 

There is no such thing as frame identity. It is made up. Warframes are machines. They are not sentient (apart from one). They are dead husks. Tools. Tools are meant to be modified to better suit their specialized function. Knife is a tool for cutting and sometimes stabbing. Do you have concerns about knife's identity when it gets CO2 cartridge installed to better suit fighting sharks? Car is a tool. It is meant to be driving on the solid ground, do you have concerns about identity of all amphibian cars? They arent boats and they never will be (just as most boats will never be cars). What if a car gets NOS installed? What happens to its identity? It was a slow car, now it is a fast car. Its identity is crushed, how will it now exist?

Edited July 6 by Zakkhar

[Voltage]

41 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

There is no such thing as frame identity. It is made up. Warframes are machines. They are not sentient (apart from one). They are dead husks. Tools. Tools are meant to be modified to better suit their specialized function. Knife is a tool for cutting and sometimes stabbing. Do you have concerns about knife's identity when it gets CO2 cartridge installed to better suit fighting sharks? Car is a tool. It is meant to be driving on the solid ground, do you have concerns about identity of all amphibian cars? They arent boats and they never will be (just as most boats will never be cars). What if a car gets NOS installed? What happens to its identity? It was a slow car, now it is a fast car. Its identity is crushed, how will it now exist?

There absolutely is identity. A Warframe's identity is their perception among players on what role the Warframe offers to a mission. Helminth undermined that on several, if not most Warframes, the worst case being Warframes like Valkyr. Honestly, most Warframe choices today are just for flavor. What you're accomplishing in the mission is largely the same with just another coat of paint these days. I really miss the days of having a dedicated player for different mission roles. The last time we saw that was in Railjack 1.0.

I would really like if DE releases more co-op content (especially for Clans and Alliances) like EDA that involves roles-based performance, and adds restrictions to ensure duplicate Warframes are not allowed (to prevent players just running 4 Titania or 4 Revenant).

[Zakkhar]

47 minutes ago, Voltage said:

A Warframe's identity is their perception among players on what role the Warframe offers to a mission.

Perception and identity are completely oposite terms. Perception depends on who is looking at the object/person and their thoughts, experience  and feelings about it, identity is inner thought, feeling and has nothing to do with the people looking at the person. Identity is meaning, perception is interpretation. You cannot just use one completely opposite word to describe another. We will not be able to communicate if you do that.

Player perception is player dependant, so is Helmith system impact on that perception. It seems to affect you in a great way, because you seem to form emotional attachments with the tools your protagonist uses in game. I am not trying to ridicule that way of perception. You have full right to it. It is just almost completely alien  to me and probably many other players.

I played Valkyr a lot before Helminth, but nowdays not so much. I heard the chatter that the update killed her because it was her only good ability. But for me, that was not exactly the case. I got other melee centered frames nowdays. I have eaten my normal Valkyr and have War Cry/Hysteria available to subsume, but I do not feel the need to do so on anything.

Edited July 6 by Zakkhar

[Zakkhar]

12 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I would really like if DE releases more co-op content (especially for Clans and Alliances) like EDA that involves roles-based performance, and adds restrictions to ensure duplicate Warframes are not allowed (to prevent players just running 4 Titania or 4 Revenant).

I too enjoy multiplayer content and especially warframe synergies that occur on EDA, but role-based performance is not a good approach. It has its advantages and disadvantages, but I prefer the WF system (at least in Warframe setting). I have played various MMOs forever, raided competitively in WoW for 8 years, played infinite hours of pen&paper RPGs, cRPGs and MOBAs. Roles seem to be a relic of initial pen&paper RPGs, where there was need to motivate players to meet, travel together and cooperate towards common goal.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

Perception and identity are completely oposite terms. Perception depends on who is looking at the object/person and their thoughts, experience  and feelings about it, identity is inner thought, feeling and has nothing to do with the people looking at the person. Identity is meaning, perception is interpretation. You cannot just use one completely opposite word to describe another. We will not be able to communicate if you do that.

Player perception is player dependant, so is Helmith system impact on that perception. It seems to affect you in a great way, because you seem to form emotional attachments with the tools your protegonist uses in game. I am not trying to ridicule that way of perception. You have full right to it. It is just almost completely alien  to me and probably many other players.

I played Valkyr a lot before Helminth, but nowdays not so much. I heard the chatter that the update killed her because it was her only good ability. But for me, that was not exactly the case. I got other melee centered frames nowdays. I have eaten my normal Valkyr and have War Cry/Hysteria available to subsume, but I do not feel the need to do so on anything.

We're both right, but I'm moreso talking about identity within the scope of the community. The intended identity of a Warframe doesn't really matter when you factor in Helminth and how players are actually using the Warframe. You're looking at the fundamental theme DE set to achieve. I am looking at the way players perceive what a Warframe is good for and how that is the Warframe's identity within the community. Helminth destroyed many Warframes in this way because their perceived identity within the community strayed from the Warframe's innate identity to something else entirely, and players are quick to compare, contrast, and toss aside options. Helminth has had no impact on the innate identity that DE designed Warframes with, but it absolutely destroyed the perceived identity the playerbase has created.

The best example of this is a Warframe like Revenant or Titania. For Titania specifically, her innate identity (the way you're looking at it) is a fairy with debuffs, exalted weapons, and a unique Archwing mode. The playerbase's identity is a speed-run Warframe and most notably a speed-nuke, where all you really care about is using Razorwing Blitz and subsuming Thermal Sunder. The masses don't care about her other abilities, because they can overwrite her innate identity by borrowing pieces of the identity of another Warframe. That is damaging long-term, even if it's fun and powerful. This is why we have Overguard, Damage Attenuation, and now Jade Light Eximus. I'm of the opinion that this underlying corrosion is what has caused content to be solely about killing, and why every new Warframe is now designed to "do it all" in terms of roles.

I guess my "attachment" stems from the lost era of Warframe where there was more weight behind Warframe choices. Duviri and EDA having random Warframe choices works today because those choices are just vehicles to achieve the same thing. I personally ignore those choices, sacrifice my Vosfer for 37 Research Points, and choose Trinity, because I want to play something that feels uniquely beneficial for the missions and my squad.

As for Valkyr, it's a symptom of Warframe kits having to do everything at the same time to remain relevant given Helminth enabled many Warframes to achieve that already.

1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

I too enjoy multiplayer content and especially warframe synergies that occur on EDA, but role-based performance is not a good approach. It has its advantages and disadvantages, but I prefer the WF system (at least in Warframe setting). I have played various MMOs forever, raided competitively in WoW for 8 years, played infinite hours of pen&paper RPGs, cRPGs and MOBAs. Roles seem to be a relic of initial pen&paper RPGs, where there was need to motivate players to meet, travel together and cooperate towards common goal.

The only stakes DE can add to a mission is based on player competency and cooperation. I enjoy Warframe as it is right now, but the game was way more enjoyable for me when I needed a squad for most content, and that barrier to entry made the content worth farming after you finished it. Everything now is quite watered-down. EDA is very refreshing, even if it's only 45 minutes a week of a mission.

Edited July 6 by Voltage

[SneakyErvin]

21 minutes ago, Voltage said:

The only stakes DE can add to a mission is based on player competency and cooperation. I enjoy Warframe as it is right now, but the game was way more enjoyable for me when I needed a squad for most content, and that barrier to entry made the content worth farming after you finished it. Everything now is quite watered-down. EDA is very refreshing, even if it's only 45 minutes a week of a mission.

EDA is nice, but it also shows the flaws in WF and why we shouldnt have multiplayer content. Since when they add it to a point where it feels like group content similar to other games, the lacking parts of WF shines through. Like with EDA, a rather lengthy mission for the game overall, that gets completely screwed over the moment there are peer-to-peer issues present. Run into it in the first mission? Not that big of a deal. Run into it in the last mission? Completely ruins the day since you need to do it all over again.

[Voltage]

20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

EDA is nice, but it also shows the flaws in WF and why we shouldnt have multiplayer content. Since when they add it to a point where it feels like group content similar to other games, the lacking parts of WF shines through. Like with EDA, a rather lengthy mission for the game overall, that gets completely screwed over the moment there are peer-to-peer issues present. Run into it in the first mission? Not that big of a deal. Run into it in the last mission? Completely ruins the day since you need to do it all over again.

I never run public outside of Fissures and a few Nightwave challenges, so this is all foreign to me. I play with a group of the same friends every week, two of which live in the same state as me in the US, and one from Australia. 

They do need to add a way to allow players to set host preferences for sure though.

Edited July 6 by Voltage

[Rexis12]

Warframes do have identity and roles.

The issue is that due to DE seeing any role or identity that isn't 'Kill Fast' and how the community sees thing that isn't 'kill things fast', those roles are removed and pushed aside.

Personally I remember people saying that Dante's Overguard was too strong, because he can actively heal and apply healing to the teammates through Overguard.

Meanwhile I'm looking at the fact that my Harrow can't even function to heal my teamates due to them dying the milisecond their shield gate ends. I had to use Specters to actually simulate what it feels like to be a healer in Warframe.

[supernils]

3 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Still, I think it's a little sad when a frame's (arguably) best ability can just get stapled onto every other frame.  Valkyr's Warcry, for quite a while (even now?), was her best ability, and now every frame can have it.  Sevagoth's Gloom is another example, alongside Grendel's Nourish.  More egregious is probably Hildryn's Pillage.  Don't get me wrong- I use Gloom on Garuda, Pillage on Gyre, and Nourish on Xaku.  I take advantage of this system.  And while it is arguably damaging to a frame's identity to slap a different ability onto it, it's also damaging to the frame that gives the ability up.  They still have it of course, but now it's not as special.

 

Of all those examples, I think Hildryn's Pillage is the saddest.  Hildryn doesn't really have much else beyond that.  Jade's release has made Hildryn seem that much more depressing with her extremely limited flight and woeful exalted.  But now I'm getting off topic.

 

Good argument. It degrades some frames to ability donors, because why play them when you can take their best ability and slap it on your favourite frame.

[supernils]

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Perception and identity are completely oposite terms. Perception depends on who is looking at the object/person and their thoughts, experience  and feelings about it, identity is inner thought, feeling and has nothing to do with the people looking at the person. Identity is meaning, perception is interpretation. You cannot just use one completely opposite word to describe another. We will not be able to communicate if you do that.

Warframes are designed with an identity (that is of course to be perceived by the player, not by the frame itself) because it gives them a unique character.

I wonder how you'd think if for the next Warframe DE would be like "and here's Joe. Joe is the ultimate..uh...warframe. Joe has 4 abilities! shoot, heal, buff and tank. Joe looks like this: 🧍". I mean, if they'd make Joe OP I'm sure a lot of players would be like "best warframe ever"....

[latetier]

i've saved myself a lot of headache when trying to understand anything about DE's or for that matter any games designs with this little trick,

just first think about how it benefits them monetarily. this simple thought will save you much time thinking too hard.

if that doesnt work, then think about how it benefits them to keep you playing longer.

[Pragmatic_2015]

Not a failed mechanic per say. I feel that it doesn't go far enough.

I do feel that at rank 30 we should be able to subsume two abilities per frame. That would plug holes in a few frames kits (Nova/Valkyr/Frames that have 2 decent abilities and 2 superfluous abilities.)

And also it could be used to augment abilities in place as a dedicated augment slot. For example Iron Shrapnel.

And for the record, I'll throw Pillage of everything because status cleanse.

Edited July 6 by Pragmatic_2015
Additional details

[Zakkhar]

3 hours ago, supernils said:

Warframes are designed with an identity (that is of course to be perceived by the player, not by the frame itself) because it gives them a unique character.

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. Warframes are sometimes designed with a theme or/and intent. So are cars. Can a family car become a race car? Yes, with enough modifications. IIt will never be as good as factory release race car, but it will get closer. Is the act modification frowned upon? No. Does it make the initial car theme worse or lose something? Neither. Can that same family car become somewhat specialized to transport eg. dogs? Sure, why not. The availability or popularity of such modifications to that very car does not result in the family car theme loose something is kinda wierd. Majority of people will still use it as a family car. If anything, the car just gets more popular itself annd it is a win win situation.

Now, what about a factory car (Valkyr) that had good compatible engine and stops being produced, because people rather use the engine in the family car that is useful for other things, than a racecar which only good part was the engine. Well, that is entirely a flaw of design of that race car, not the availability and popularity of the modiification system.

Edited July 6 by Zakkhar

[Zakkhar]

53 minutes ago, Pragmatic_2015 said:

And for the record, I'll throw Pillage of everything because status cleanse.

Pillage needs pretty high STR levels to achieve its main goal, compared to other similar subsumable abilities.

Edited July 6 by Zakkhar

[Pragmatic_2015]

23 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Pillage needs pretty high STR levels to achieve its main goal, compared to other similar subsumable abilities.

It's more for status cleanse and maybe a strip. But then again Molt Augmented is too good to pass up and Rolling Guard should only work when you roll and have a status that needs clearing. But most content that uses that much pesky status I'm fully immune with Nyx.