Zhuge Prime has Worse Stats than the Base Version

[Bioskop]

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Zhuge 

As you can see here, the only stats, in which Zhuge Prime is not worse than the Base version are Magazine capacity (30 vs 20) and Crit chance (26 vs 20).

The Prime Weapon needs a buff. 35-40% crit chance, 2.5-3 crit damage, 200 base damage, 1.5s reload speed, aligned projectile speed (90m/s from base version) and fire rate (5.5). 

At a required MR14 the weapon should be on par with weapons of the same required rank (Felarx, Strun Prime, Phenmor, etc.).

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, Bioskop said:

At a required MR14 the weapon should be on par with weapons of the same required rank (Felarx, Strun Prime, Phenmor, etc.).

This is not that kind of game. MR requirement have zero corelation with actual power level of the weapon. 

It is not Diablo.

Zhuge is one of the least popular/powerfful weapons in game and you compare it to 3 incarnons.

Edited July 14 by Zakkhar

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, Bioskop said:

As you can see here, the only stats, in which Zhuge Prime is not worse than the Base version are Magazine capacity (30 vs 20) and Crit chance (26 vs 20).

Yes, I can see that you cant read wiki at all: 

Comparisons:

•  Zhuge Prime (Arrow Impact), compared to  Zhuge (Normal Attack):
  • Lower base damage per projectile (50.00 vs. 100.00)
    • Higher  Impact damage ( 10 vs.  5)
    • Lower  Puncture damage ( 22.5 vs.  75)
    • Lower  Slash damage ( 17.5 vs.  20)
  • Lower total damage (50 vs. 100)
  • Higher base critical chance (26.00% vs. 20.00%)
  • Lower base status chance (30.00% vs. 35.00%)
  • Lower average damage per tap (63 vs. 120)
  • Lower burst DPS (346.5 vs. 500.4)
  • Lower sustained DPS (223.54 vs. 328.94)
  • Higher fire rate (5.50 attacks/sec vs. 4.17 attacks/sec)
  • Larger magazine (30 vs. 20)
  • Smaller max ammo capacity (270 vs. 540)
  • Smaller ammo pickup count (60 vs. 80)
  • Slower reload time (3.00 s vs. 2.50 s)
  • Lesser projectile speed (80.0 m/s vs. 90.0 m/s)
  • More polarities ( vs. )
  • Higher Mastery Rank required (14 vs. 10)
  • Lower disposition (●●●●○ (1.15x) vs. ●●●●○ (1.20x))

Point is Zhuge Prime has two attacks in one. Arrow Impact and Radial Attack (you would know that too if you tested in game instead of looking at wiki), while Zhuge only has normal attack. Although it is clearly visible on wiki as well.

Edited July 14 by Zakkhar

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Bioskop said:

As you can see here, the only stats, in which Zhuge Prime is not worse than the Base version are Magazine capacity (30 vs 20) and Crit chance (26 vs 20).

And RoF.  Furthermore the wiki is only taking direct projectile damage into account in its damage comparisons, when the Prime has a radial component on its attacks.  

 

1 hour ago, Bioskop said:

At a required MR14 the weapon should be on par with weapons of the same required rank (Felarx, Strun Prime, Phenmor, etc.).

You're comparing a Prime to very good Incarnon weapons.    If you look into this more, you'll see that Incarnon are on a higher tier than other weapons, regardless of MR.  Incarnon Furis is only MR 2, and still a beast compared to the vast majority of high MR non-Incarnon weapons.

[PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE]

What else 😄 Attica Prime?
LMAO

[Ventura_Highway]

Oreo cookies eat

[Pakaku]

It's underrated, to be totally honest

[Fred_Avant_2019]

These are all good points, but if I may, Galvanized Aptitude only works on the projectiles making direct contact with the targets, while the radial attack damage is not affected. In the Zhuge prime's case, the radial attack is 45% of the total damage. It also behaves in a weird fashion with Punchthrough, since the explosion will only trigger when it's done punching through.

 

Zhuge prime does get a 50% faster reload speed from a fully emptied magazine, but it's still on the lengthy side considering the overall damage. Can it kill base steel path? Sure, of course it can, but don't expect it to be fast. There is a LOT of prime weapons that completely outshine it, not even taking incarnon adapter into account. The explosion part of it doesn't help in any regard, it's smaller than an electric proc chain and it has a built-in small delay. You COULD argue that it's increasing the probability of slash procs from Hunter Munitions, but it's also much weaker slashes that would originate from it anyway.

 

There's no reason to use this over the Nagantaka Prime (let alone the base one), and even less reason to use this over the Paris Prime (especially since it can hit 300%+ status chance with Incarnon).

 

As for OP's statement... it doesn't have "worse stats" than its base version, but it has bad gimmicks that ruin the beauty of it.

[Bioskop]

On 2024-07-15 at 8:28 PM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Galvanized Aptitude only works on the projectiles making direct contact with the targets, while the radial attack damage is not affected

Exactly. So half the supposed base damage does not scale well.

On 2024-07-15 at 8:28 PM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

You COULD argue that it's increasing the probability of slash procs

It might benefit Puncture procs (for crit) and modded elemental damage more. But

 

On 2024-07-15 at 8:28 PM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

As for OP's statement... it doesn't have "worse stats" than its base version, but it has bad gimmicks that ruin the beauty of it.

base Zhuge scales with Galvanized Mods, so the difference the AoE makes is rather minor. I'd rather, they reduce the damage of the AoE to 10 and give the rest back to the primary fire, if they don't let it scale of base damage.

 

On 2024-07-14 at 6:38 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Incarnon Furis is only MR 2

Furis is MR2. You cannot get/use the Incarnon until you have done the Quest for it. MR was intended to be a gateway, so people try different weapons, depending on their progression. If the progression of Zhuge Prime is supposed to be on par with "has played all of the base star chart", I am expecting more.

 

On 2024-07-15 at 8:28 PM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

There's no reason to use this over the Nagantaka Prime

Yes. I can one shot lvl 200 heavy units, once it ramps up - without a riven or buffs.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2024-07-15 at 11:28 AM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

It also behaves in a weird fashion with Punchthrough, since the explosion will only trigger when it's done punching through.

Like most weapons with AoE, Punch Through has done nothing on it at all for a few years.

 

On 2024-07-15 at 11:28 AM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Zhuge prime does get a 50% faster reload speed from a fully emptied magazin

Ah, I'd forgotten about that. That's another thing that's not reflected in the stat comparison in the wiki.

 

14 minutes ago, Bioskop said:

Furis is MR2. You cannot get/use the Incarnon until you have done the Quest for it. MR was intended to be a gateway, so people try different weapons, depending on their progression.

You brought up MR and suggested that means Zhuge should be on par with Incarnon weapons.  My point is, MR has a very rough correlation at best with weapon power, and won't tell you anything when comparing a regular prime to Felarx.

If you manage to get the attention of somebody at DE, you'll have a more convincing case if you aren't comparing it to weapons that are Incarnon, Kuva, or Tenet.  A direct buff to such a weapon that's 5 years old is unlikely no matter how good your case is, but maybe it inspires somebody to make an augment.

Or maybe they just lower the MR and make you happy that way. :P

[Bioskop]

15 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Or maybe they just lower the MR and make you happy that way. :P

:(

16 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

16 hours ago, Bioskop said:

Furis is MR2. You cannot get/use the Incarnon until you have done the Quest for it. MR was intended to be a gateway, so people try different weapons, depending on their progression.

You brought up MR and suggested that means Zhuge should be on par with Incarnon weapons.  My point is, MR has a very rough correlation at best with weapon power, and won't tell you anything when comparing a regular prime to Felarx.

MR is one of the gateways though. Furis Incarnon is beyond MR2. Base Furis is MR2 worthy. But I am too tired to argue this rn (covid)