Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

So I have to suppose A is not modded and B modded ? That's a great power improvement from mods and hard work, I like it !

A is modded, B is not modded.

So now, same question as before: which of the two following clips looks more powerful?

C:

(The 3rd shot was unnecessary)

D:

Both have an 0.4s TTK if that matters to you.

Edited August 20 by PublikDomain

[dwqrf]

il y a 3 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

A is modded, B is not modded. Same question as before, which of the two clips looks more powerful?

None, they are both the same.

Please show me A unmodded and B modded now.

Edited August 19 by dwqrf

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

None, they are both the same.

Please show me A unmodded and B modded now.

I would agree that both clips look the same. C is unmodded and D is modded.

Spoiler

In the first example, the first clip (A) was an Aklato with Hornet Strike and Primed Expel Grineer being fired at a lvl40 Butcher. The second (B) clip was an unmodded Aklato being fired at a lvl5 Butcher. Despite dealing ~5x more damage, the first Aklato kills in a much longer amount of time.

In the second example, the first clip (C) was the same unmodded clip as before. The second clip (D) was an Aklato with Serration and Primed Expel Grineer being fired at a lvl17 Butcher. Despite dealing ~5x more damage, the second Aklato kills in an identical amount of time.

You can recreate this scenario yourself using any weapon, ability, pet, enemy, level range, etc. Hit an enemy with the damage-dealing ability of your choice and count how many hits it takes to kill it. Equip Umbral Intensify and spawn the same enemy at a level that has 1.44x as much EHP as before. It will be killed in the same number of hits. Simpler mechanics like damage mods are easier get consistent results with, but you can apply the same idea to any weapon or build against any enemy at any level as long as you appropriately average everything out.

So if every player damage source in the game dealt 100x more damage and every enemy had 100x more EHP, do you think would you be able to tell? Could you tell in the second clip where the weapon dealt 5x more damage and the enemy had 5x more EHP? Or the inverse, if every player damage source in the game dealt 1/100th as much damage and every enemy had 1/100th as much EHP, do you think you would be able to tell?

My overall point is that damage does not mean anything on its own. It needs context. Given the examples, does that sound like a reasonable thing to say?

Edited August 20 by PublikDomain

[RichardKam]

1小时前 , PublikDomain 说:

Pick one and I'll explain what the context is. Which looks more subjectively powerful, however it is you interpret that question? We'll get to the rest of your questions later.

For orokin sake that is by definition a loaded question, purposely withholding the context of the question and force people to answer.

[PublikDomain]

4 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

For orokin sake that is by definition a loaded question, purposely withholding the context of the question and force people to answer.

Yes, it is. 1,000,000%. Because I've tried explaining these concepts to people in the past and if I explain it all at once the person I'm talking to will - without fail - latch onto some minor detail and dig their heals in screaming bloody murder and I won't be able to get anywhere. So this time I will try explaining step by step. @dwqrf seems like they might actually be open-minded about this so I'm quite interested in how far I'll be able to explain it this time. Would you like to try as well?

[dwqrf]

il y a 8 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

I would agree that both clips look the same. And yes, A is unmodded and B is modded.

You said the exact opposite before. I want to see the comparaison of A modded and unmodded, and B modded and unmodded, which you never provided.

[PublikDomain]

31 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

You said the exact opposite before. I want to see the comparaison of A modded and unmodded, and B modded and unmodded, which you never provided.

They were two separate comparisons. Sorry if I didn't make that clear, I'll go back and edit my posts so the clips in the second example are labeled C and D. Would you like to change your answer about the second set of clips (C & D)?

Edited August 20 by PublikDomain

[dwqrf]

il y a 4 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

They were two separate comparisons. Sorry if I didn't make that clear, I'll go back and edit my posts so the clips in the second example are labeled C and D. Would you like to change your answer about the second set of clips (C & D)?

 

Nope, I want you to provide me with 4 clips. A unmodded and A modded ; versus B unmodded and B modded. Because if you try to tell me about how different power fantasy can be accomplished, you have to give me examples of how much the actual modding (and the grind, effort, and knowledge : the progression) can change one's dps. That's the necessary pre-discussion we need to have before talking about end game. When seeing the difference, we can argue either player became too strong ; or ; player didn't get strong enough. In Warframe's case, when you reach the provided endgame (lvl 300+ with modifiers), you can still confortably survive and kill enemies thanks to heavy modding (which was earned), while you can't do that unmodded, or badly modded (illogically/out of meta). At all. And that's just fine. That's power fantasy. The base end game is both hard enough (to provide meaningful challenge), and easy enough (to provide satisfaction).

Now, I can clearly see you are just trying to trick people with this picture :



But it has nothing to do with my point.

When I talk about nerfs, I'm talking about the combinaison of different tools, which happens to be just fine by themselves. Invisibility wouldn't be OP if it broke when attacking. Roar wouldn't be OP if it didn't double dip Dots. The interaction of different mecanics resulting in either cheesing AI, multiplicative exponential number, and so on, is the issue endgame is having with player's power. If you make bullet sponges, then people will abuse impact status and parazon for easy kills, as lethal dagger were once upon a time. There is so many broken things in Warframe that raw numbers cannot change how we will eventually approach any newly balanced endgame : the easiest and most confortable way. People say they want to struggle, but really, they don't.

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

Now, I can clearly see you are just trying to trick people with this picture :

Correct, it is exactly that picture. Look a few pages back:

On 2024-08-12 at 9:54 AM, PublikDomain said:

Though there is no trick, the child in the meme simply lacks the understanding that height is not the same as volume. If you understand that, then similarly I would like to get your agreement that damage is not the same as TTK.

4 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Because if you try to tell me about how different power fantasy can be accomplished, you have to give me examples of how much the actual modding (and the grind, effort, and knowledge : the progression) can change one's dps. That's the necessary pre-discussion we need to have before talking about end game.

You're putting the cart before the horse a little. I don't want to get into any of these topics until I can get you to agree with me on some fundamental ideas like the one above.

[dwqrf]

il y a 36 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

You're putting the cart before the horse a little.

And I don't want to get into the topic either until you provide me with clips of A unmodded + A modded ; B unmodded + B modded.

Because the dps increase from modding will dictate how easy the end game should be.

Edit : "dps increase" = "ttk decrease"

Edited August 20 by dwqrf

[PublikDomain]

4 hours ago, dwqrf said:

And I don't want to get into the topic either until you provide me with clips of A unmodded + A modded ; B unmodded + B modded.

Well, if you insist.

A:

Spoiler

Note that I had to speed these up 2x because the clip was so long.

A is already modded. An unmodded example would look like this:

Unmodded Aklato vs lvl40 Butcher:

And here is another Aklato with mods that has a similar* TTK:

Aklato with Hornet Strike + Prime Expel Grineer  vs lvl76 Butcher:

* Similar only because I can't spawn enemies at half levels.

So has the addition or removal of the mods changed anything between these two clips? The enemy dies in the same ~48 shots.

B:

Spoiler

B is already unmodded. A modded example with the mods used earlier would look like this:

Aklato with Hornet Strike + Primed Expel Grineer vs lvl5 Butcher:

And here is another Aklato with only a R4 Hornet Strike:

Aklato with R4 Hornet Strike vs lvl5 Grineer:

So has downgrading the Hornet Strike from R10 to R4 and removing Primed Expel Grineer changed anything between these two clips? The enemy dies in the same 1 shot.

As you have deduced, I am essentially showing you this image:

Are you pointing at a beaker?

Edited August 20 by PublikDomain
Added labels

[GEN-Son_17]

16 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Did you ever try them with the sweet and sour sauce?

Don't........ Don't do this to me ECCHO...

[RichardKam]

8小时前 , PublikDomain 说:

Yes, it is. 1,000,000%. Because I've tried explaining these concepts to people in the past and if I explain it all at once the person I'm talking to will - without fail - latch onto some minor detail and dig their heals in screaming bloody murder and I won't be able to get anywhere. So this time I will try explaining step by step. @dwqrf seems like they might actually be open-minded about this so I'm quite interested in how far I'll be able to explain it this time. Would you like to try as well?

Not interested. I will come back when you are done with your theatrics.

Anyway there will never be any endgame or "perpetually challenging contents" in any 10+ years old GaaS. The game is ever changing. Players keep making progress. Different players have different preferences. Even if by some mathematical miracles you have created an endgame without any arsenal restriction that makes everyone happy, after a year it won't be endgame anymore.

[MrInubis]

12 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

You say you wouldn't mind it, but then list off this doom and gloom about how everything would need to be nerfed and the game would all of a sudden be "bland" as the "power fantasy slowly disappears" and "but someone might get upset". So it shouldn't be surprising that people read all this and get an implied "and so I don't want anything to happen".

Thats a stretch beyond imagination. I dont want nerfs because i like to feel overpowered, im not good at the game and i dont want to be locked out of the content and rewards. I will also argue that challenging endame content in this game is impossible to make. Nobody on any of all of the topics about endgame didnt even begin to try to answer to 1 simple question. How to make challenge for Octavia with Torid so Oberon with Soma Prime would still be viable option? 

 

People cry about endgame all the time but cant specify what is acceptable level of challenge and how to make it without locking out most of the power we can have. Challenging endgame will just create hard locked meta. It also breeds toxicity like nothing else. I WANT new content but i dont want HARD NEW content.

[dwqrf]

Il y a 10 heures, PublikDomain a dit :

Are you pointing at a beaker?

How can I ; when A1 and A2 features different enemy levels, therefor biasing the argument ?
Where is the power fantasy of Bs clips when no change has been noticed between unmodded and modded ?

I don't think you understand the issue.

[4thBro]

It's not theatrics when you try to articulate your point. But it is dismissive when you label it as theatrics. Blissful ignorance, if you will. "Here's my innocent opinion, and everyone else is spewing theatrics."

 

14 hours ago, dwqrf said:

None, they are both the same.

Please show me A unmodded and B modded now.

You're totally missing the short term point of this, and in a way, that proves the long term point.

 

You can have your power fantasy in this game, and nobody can ever take it away from you.

However, YOU are actively gatekeeping other people from having the things that THEY want.

 

That's the long term point.

At least, that's how I'm interpreting & predicting it. But I'm not him, so I'll let him continue.

But refusing to participate in his attempt to clarify a point is admitting that you're not discussing this genuinely, and everyone will be able to see that fact. So... up to you.

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, 4thBro a dit :

YOU are actively gatekeeping other people from having the things that THEY want.

It was never in my power, and never will be, to choose what DE do next. YOU are actively mistaken.
And please, explain me what YOU want. Go ahead, everybody is reading ; instead of wrongly supposing what I want.

 

il y a 3 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

You're totally missing the short term point of this

What point ? It's out of context and doesn't give the information needed to clarify and move forward ; and when asked for clarification, he didn't provide it. You cannot ignore points and logic just because it doesn't fit your narrative. You say it yourself  :

 

il y a 5 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

refusing to participate in his attempt to clarify a point is admitting that you're not discussing this genuinely, and everyone will be able to see that fact.

 

[4thBro]

And I guess I'll respond to this "perfect response" post of yours... lmao.

 

On 2024-08-13 at 2:02 PM, dwqrf said:

You mean like the endgame you don't engage with ?

Fallacious response, as it is off topic. I am expressing a desire for a satisfying endgame. So, obviously, bringing up the current endgame is invalid.

 

Additionally, even your own side of the discussion has said that WF has no endgame, because it's not that kind of game. But here, when it suits you, suddenly WF does have an endgame?

Interesting.

 

On 2024-08-13 at 2:02 PM, dwqrf said:

Nobody ever said we don't want DE to add more content. Nobody. Ever.
Being Happy with the current state of the game is spontaneous : We like the game how it is now. Are we going to like to like the game in the future ? Maybe, maybe not ; but we cannot know until the update drop and that we play it. And until then, we are not going to speculate about liking content we don't even know yet. Being able to accept and enjoy the current state of the game has nothing to do with wanting/not wanting some content implementations

And so, this is why you need to stay out of the conversation. If you're happy with the game, why are you here in this thread???

Actual question, so please answer it. If you don't think anything is missing from WF, why have you been in here for all 14 pages so far???

This is not your discussion. This is why you're gatekeeping. Because it has nothing to do with you, but you're actively trying to keep it out of the game.

 

On 2024-08-13 at 2:02 PM, dwqrf said:

Toxic

If these forums considers calling someone toxic four times in a row to be your magnum opus, then good for you, I guess.

I can admit I've said some unnecessary, "toxic" things. Talking to you is frustrating because I truly do not believe that you are being sincere, honest, or genuine.

But if you're going to pretend that you haven't also said unnecessary, "toxic" things, well, then... that would kind of prove my point.

 

On 2024-08-13 at 2:02 PM, dwqrf said:

Are those people in the room with us right now ?

In this thread? No, nobody wants to follow 14 pages.

On the forums, though??? Yeah. A good amount.

The rest of them don't come here. Because they quit the game. Because we're talking about the game not having something that people want.

 

As brought up many times: Go look at polls.

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, dwqrf said:

How can I ; when A1 and A2 features different enemy levels, therefor biasing the argument ?
Where is the power fantasy of Bs clips when no change has been noticed between unmodded and modded ?

I don't think you understand the issue.

My question wasn't about enemy levels or an amount of change, I'm just asking you to pick the one you like more. Can you tell me which looks more like the gameplay you expect from Warframe? Can you share your own clip of Warframe gameplay that made you feel powerful?

Or is your power fantasy something cosmetic that can be fooled by simply turning off damage numbers?

[PublikDomain]

5 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Anyway there will never be any endgame or "perpetually challenging contents" in any 10+ years old GaaS. The game is ever changing. Players keep making progress. Different players have different preferences. Even if by some mathematical miracles you have created an endgame without any arsenal restriction that makes everyone happy, after a year it won't be endgame anymore.

k

4 hours ago, kuciol said:

I dont want nerfs because i like to feel overpowered

Hey man, I can show you the same clips as dwqrf. Which of these two clips makes you feel more overpowered?

A:

B:

One of these examples has been "nerfed" by 2.5x. Can you tell the difference?

4 hours ago, kuciol said:

I WANT new content but i dont want HARD NEW content.

So don't play it. 🤷‍♀️

[dwqrf]

il y a 3 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

And I guess I'll respond to this "perfect response" post of yours... lmao.

Someone else said it, not me. Can't wait to see people thinking the same about your post.

 

il y a 3 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

Fallacious response

And here we go again... fallacy, strawman, blah blah.

 

il y a 4 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

Additionally, even your own side of the discussion has said that WF has no endgame, because it's not that kind of game. But here, when it suits you, suddenly WF does have an endgame?

Interesting.

Warframe has many endgame. Combat endgame is level cap. Farming endgame are cosmetics and codex grind. You consider none of those as endgame, somehow ; claiming we need another (?) endgame. I claim we don't need to play those endgame to enjoy the game, as you can just play SP and EDA with a good gear and have fun with it ; it's the end of the game for most people, because they don't need to push further/spend more time to feel good. Yet, you want something else, which you still refuse to explain, and when presented with actual endgames, you dismiss them, because you don't like it.

Interesting... wait, now, that's stupid.
 

il y a 9 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

And so, this is why you need to stay out of the conversation. If you're happy with the game, why are you here in this thread???

Actual question, so please answer it. If you don't think anything is missing from WF, why have you been in here for all 14 pages so far???

I'm here because you are a toxic person and your opinion is setting mankind a few steps behind, and anyone in a clear mind and with knowledge of what is Warframe is about is getting dumber with everysingle post you make. I can't let your opinion being the only opinion spammed on the forum as it's contrary to logic and the well being of the game. I sure would like DE to make more content (and they will) ; but I have to make sure they don't listen to the only loud voice here.
 

il y a 12 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

Talking to you is frustrating because I truly do not believe that you are being sincere, honest, or genuine.

Same. And your experience of Warframe is not as good as you think it is. Bruh, my sentinel has 12x more kills than your most used weapon.

 

il y a 14 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

In this thread? No, nobody wants to follow 14 pages.

On the forums, though??? Yeah. A good amount.

Prove it. A lot of people actually liked the counter-responses I had to produce against you. I haven't seen that much support for your posts. You think people agree with you. I don't have any proof of that.

 

il y a 16 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

As brought up many times: Go look at polls.

And the average IQ of mankind is 100. Should smart creators follow the will of the majority and create dumb content ? I think not.
 

[Slayer-.]

A:, do I win anything?

[dwqrf]

il y a 13 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

My question wasn't about enemy levels or an amount of change, I'm just asking you to pick the one you like more. Can you tell me which looks more like the gameplay you expect from Warframe? Can you share your own clip of Warframe gameplay that made you feel powerful?

The clips that make me feel powerfull are the one where ; after a long grind and smart modding, I can finally kill enemies faster. So I want to see a clip of X weapon unmodded vs level 1, and X weapon unmodded vs level "endgame" ; and then ; X weapon modded vs level 1, and X weapon modded vs level "endgame". Provide me with those clips and then we can talk. Until then, you are just trying to trick people into fake ideas. None of your given example provide context, and the one providing context are manipulated to follow your narrative. You aren't doing science, you are doing propaganda of a biased opinion.

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, Slayer-. said:

A:, do I win anything?

You win one cookie: 🍪

And a chance to explain why :)

[dwqrf]

il y a 12 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

So don't play it. 🤷‍♀️

So why should DE spend time, money and ressource, to make a gamemode that people won't play ???