Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[4thBro]

38 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

For my defense, I did try to apologize for my behaviour

For his behavior towards me, he apologizes to everyone else, and then calls me a troll and publicly announces that he's muting me.

This guy's APOLOGIES are just more insults.

 

That's him.

 

That's your guy.

 

There's your hero, while I'm your villain.

Lmao.

 

 

 

 

Eh... Whatever. Who cares, honestly. Kinda bored of talking about this craziness.

 

If anyone wants to actually see what's what, they can view this thread's pages. Anyone who doesn't is forfeiting their right to a valid opinion about it.

Edited August 29 by 4thBro

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

Have you ever played with one of those RPG when you start to see how much grind there is, and just decide : nope. I don't think Warframe is that different. Some people get hooked. For a long time. Most just have fun with it for a bit, and move on. And for Most people, just buying a frame and having its spell doing damage is great; because they don't want to get too involved in it to make it work. Hence the difference between supercially damaging abilities, and the deep subtilities we need to make it work later.

Ok, but should the game be designed around people who aren't actually playing it?

5 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Yes, I definitely do. I don't think the point of existence of the Mk1-Strun is to do damage. It's more like to give a feel for the players which would like to know how shotguns works, this family of weapons, they do exist in Warframe, and they have this unique shell by shell mecanics and spread and a satisfying sound and such. Unmodded, it does enough damage when you pick it up (mr0) to be relevant (there), but the description would be a straight up lie for people looking for a Versatile, Reliable, Deadly weapon in some mid/end game.

And how do shotguns work.

What do they do.

What is the intended experience of using a shotgun in this game, in your experience? 

6 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

But, should it ? They are doing things differently, and that's fine ! Look, it's popular enough. Enough ? Making choices to try to make it more popular could also make it less popular. It's a really dangerous gamble.

If I wanted to make Warframe popular, I would not be suggesting balance changes. I'd be suggesting changing the Warframes to women in bikinis and men in suits, and doing Genshin Impact crossovers. Or whatever Hoyoverse has put out lately. Or in general, the First Descendent with less egregious monetisation

Let's face it, different is not good any more than the same is good. If Warframe's doing something that's causing problems, then you can look to how other games fix or avoid having that problem in the first place.

13 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Well, it seems to me you are on board with the "everything that do damage should do big killing damage to be useful.". So from that point, I have to think you dismiss everything else that make the ability unique.

Now I can at least see why you think that. But the thing is, you could pretty much swap out Caliban's 4 for pretty much any other ability in the same boat in respects to damage numbers and so on. Nekros's soul punch I believe was a previous topic, but Volt's 1 (and his 4, poor guy), Styanax's 1, Vauban's 3 - any ability that does damage and doesn't have some big multiplier option, especially those that do have some secondary effect. Often first abilities.

Caliban's 4 is just an example. An emblem. Mixed with the idea that he was supposed to be a debuffer frame in spite of the fact that everything about his visual design suggests he's an aggressive caster, he's a shining pillar of the problem.

In other words, the reason I'm dismissing the other things it does is because how useful they are is besides the point. It's not in contention, at least as far as this discussion goes. The damage part of the ability, however is.

25 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

A lot of good points. Now I know what you are trying to talk about. Thank you for that.

The ball is in your court, as they say.

[dwqrf]

il y a 2 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Ok, but should the game be designed around people who aren't actually playing it?

Any new player buying one single frame or skin is better than one player staying 5000h without spending a cent.
 

il y a 3 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

What do they do.

What is the intended experience of using a shotgun in this game, in your experience?

Tickle Grineer bellies, mostly. Look how cute is this Nox laughing !
 

il y a 3 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

If I wanted to make Warframe popular, I would not be suggesting balance changes. I'd be suggesting changing the Warframes to women in bikinis and men in suits, and doing Genshin Impact crossovers. Or whatever Hoyoverse has put out lately. Or in general, the First Descendent with less egregious monetisation

Have you tried TFD ?
 

il y a 4 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Caliban's 4 is just an example. An emblem. Mixed with the idea that he was supposed to be a debuffer frame in spite of the fact that everything about his visual design suggests he's an aggressive caster, he's a shining pillar of the problem.

It doesn't make sense to spam an ability which has a duration.
 

il y a 5 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

The ball is in your court, as they say.

Yes, I'll come back to you. Promise. I also have to write to Publik about what I think of the new players experience. Have a good one Tenno.

[4thBro]

On topic...

Why is this thread currently so off-topic? I understand branch-offs, but why are we talking about shotguns?

 

Seems more like a derail/distraction.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

Any new player buying one single frame or skin is better than one player staying 5000h without spending a cent.

You know full well that's not what I mean.

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

Tickle Grineer bellies, mostly. Look how cute is this Nox laughing !

Dodging around the subject I see.

2 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Have you tried TFD ?

I'm not particularly interested in generic boobs Mc'kensie fests, the studio developing it has a poor reputation, and I've heard poor things about the Monetisation, so no.

4 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

It doesn't make sense to spam an ability which has a duration.

Did I mention spamming?

4 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Yes, I'll come back to you. Promise. I also have to write to Publik about what I think of the new players experience. Have a good one Tenno.

I look forwards to your reasons.

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, Loza03 a dit :

Dodging around the subject I see.

No, I just really have to go.
 

il y a 2 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

I'm not particularly interested in generic boobs Mc'kensie fests, the studio developing it has a poor reputation, and I've heard poor things about the Monetisation, so no.

And it's not the style, aesthetic, the studio's reputation, or the monetization that's the issue with this game. Far from it. Only and only the extreme balance to make everything work everywhere and thus, having absolutely nowhere any power fantasy/ That's why people hate the game now. You can't feel progress. No intullectually, not gear wise. A perfect clone where everything has the same DPS, spells weapons, pets, explosive barrels, you name it. And it can't be a big dps because the studio want you to spend time in it... so that's a low DPS. Everywhere. And that's really sad because the gunplay feels great, it looks good, it works good. It's just not fun.

Anyways.

[vixenpixel]

1 hour ago, 4thBro said:

Heh.

 

And all I did was point out fallacies.

Gotta love it.

 

Okay, and this is where your lack of knowing the whole conversation is showing.

 

Party A wants X thing added to game, and declares that they're willing to do whatever it takes so that it doesn't get in the way of Party B.

Party B won't participate in X thing, and so they don't want it added.

 

So who's not hearing who? Who isn't working around points to make everyone happy?

 

Yes. You're just mixed up on who that is.

Who goes into a suggestion thread and says the person is "getting destroyed"???

 

Okay. Let's not be disingenuously naive, now. Part of that calculation included his mannerisms. There's no "cheap points" here, and, frankly, I felt it was a bit condescending and transparent, the way he talked to you.

I'm certainly not the only one who saw that.

But hey, he was talking to you. If you didn't feel that way, then that's all that matters.

 

I knew what I was doing when I tagged you. I know it was mischievous. That was my intention, and I didn't hide from it. I just also didn't think it was a big deal. Light hearted, even.

I don't see how (over)confidence comes in, though, but oh well.

But a need for validation by putting others down? All I've done is point out the fallacies used by others. And I've ENCOURAGED people to do the same to me, if I am using any.

Meanwhile, your friend directly calls me a subhuman, and WANTED me and another guy to fight, for his amusement. Literally.

That ain't on me. No amount of "narcissist" or "needs attention" labels can make it so that I chose his actions. Or anyone else's, for that matter. Most of this thread is wasted on fallacious posts. And the reason that's important to know is because fallacies are literally dead space in a discussion.

 

 

 

 

BUT... I'm not dumb. I know that the more I talk about the technicalities and facts and logic, the more people get disinterested. People are interested in emotions. And emotions are for entertainment.

My suspicion is that half of these posters want a real talk revolving around logical points, and the other half are just here for entertainment. The two cannot have a meaningful conversation with each other. Their goals are different.

 

But you seem to be on the emotions side of this, if you're calling anything I've been saying "antics."

That's a very good answer. I won't respond to anything directly except to say simply that you're right about me not having all the answers here. I made some assumptions and I apologize if I missed the mark. 

Also I guess I lied when I said I wouldn't respond. If you had been sn A****** like i expected I would have ignored and now I feel guilty instead. Damnit, all I wanted was a tower of bloody deeds with a seat of sin at it's peak.

[4thBro]

Reminds me of Lucifer. One of my favorite shows.

[vixenpixel]

1 hour ago, 4thBro said:

Reminds me of Lucifer. One of my favorite shows.

I like that show alot aswell. 

[MrInubis]

5 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Let's look at Caliban's 4 as an example. It's a big sweeping attack that hits everything in front of him. Now examining Volt's 1. It's a dinky, single target attack. These aren't the same thing, so they shouldn't be treated the same. In reality the only difference is at what level they stop being useful, and the fact that unlike weapons as a concept, that they do at all.

Calibans 4 main purpose is armor strip, dmg is the secondary effect. Volts 1 can be changed to weapon buff. Both are meant to enchance weapon gameplay. Those abilities do not stop being usefull ever because they have the secondary effects. Its not confusing as you sugest, its called complexity. I see no reason to change that when now weapons and abilities are both used equaly, you want to push abilities above weapons.

 

5 hours ago, Loza03 said:

And taking that second point about 'you can't even spam abilities as much - yeah, that seems like it's reasonable place to start if we want to let the two co-exist more naturally. It's a whole other kettle of fish to debate the pros and cons, but there's options as broad and sweeping as overhauling the energy system to stat squish the energy generation of the likes of Zenurik and Arcane energise and energy orb drops, to less sweeping but clumsier changes like adding cooldowns to potentially problematic powers after their stats get adjusted.

But players like to spam abilities. It is just more fun this way. Its warframe, not mass effect.

 

5 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Nobody is asking for all abilities to nuke rooms with infinite ammo. Well, Ok, I'm not.

Even if not all you open up sunder titania situation for many more things. DE is actively trying to remove afk playstyle from the game.

[dwqrf]

Il y a 5 heures, vixenpixel a dit :

Now I feel guilty instead. Damnit, all I wanted was a tower of bloody deeds with a seat of sin at it's peak.

Once upon a time, a man called Ballas tried to make the universe bow to him by making a new type of weapons : finding a toxic coumpound that get under people skins to make them blindly obey his selfish needs. He created an army of those, but lost control when the Tennos came along and reached the heart of the fallen. They understood their pain, what they had lost, and helped each other stand up together to fight evil. Ballas defeated fled to the darkness. The system was at peace once more. Sometimes conflit still rose between the factions and the Tennos, but it was prosperous nonetheless.

But Ballas wasn't done yet. From his self inflicted status of victim, he seeked help, triying to send gift to reach the origin system again, while accepting being the tool of superior beings. And he found the ultimate weapon to defeat the Tennos : the sentient Natah, Lotus, which was emotionnaly involved. Ballas did what he does best : get under their skin under false pretense, until he obtained more and more power, overpowering them, and thus, overpowered the universe. But he still had to defeat the Tennos to flatter his ego. 

Using the sentient army and the deceived Lotus, he swat away any resistance that weren't even the Tennos ally, until he could face and throw into darkness the last remaining operator, weakened by the manipulated emotionnal bond. Ballas was then standing in the ashes of a enslaved system, pleased of his dominance, while bored of his own loneliness.

The lost Tenno had to find another way to grow, deep inside the realm of possibilities that infinite imagination provide, before even thinking of coming back. And doing so, he had still to try to save the corrupted Lotus before saving himself. A long quest of fighting their own old weapons now turned monsters by the twisted adaptibility Ballas forced upon them, in a quest for control, began. Each step maddening ever more the self proclamed king, jealous and angry at their unstoppable energy, as they would never bow down to his will. And after defeating each one of them, the Tenno could heal her in a final attempt to fight back the mad Orokin.

It was in this ultimate battle, that both the Tenno standing his ground proud of his value and Lotus getting back what he stole from her, with his own trick, that they defeated together his pathetic attempt at consuming the whole sun and destroying the system with it. 

It's a beautiful story.

Now you can replace Ballas with 4thbro, Lotus with yourself, the Tenno with me, the swatted factions as the other people in this thread, and the system with the topic. And it all fit so well. I can't make it up. It's all there.

Are the Tennos virtuous ? Nah, they reached their goals on a river of blood, but they did it for the right reason ; freedom, compassion, altruism.

What would Ballas do in the end if he survived ? Scream lies, fallacies, play victim or run away to find new weapons to do it all over, all again.

Edited August 30 by dwqrf

[vixenpixel]

7 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Once upon a time, a man called Ballas tried to make the universe bow to him by making a new type of weapons : finding a toxic coumpound that get under people skins to make them blindly obey his selfish needs. He created an army of those, but lost control when the Tennos came along and reached the heart of the fallen. They understood their pain, what they had lost, and helped each other stand up together to fight evil. Ballas defeated fled to the darkness. The system was at peace once more. Sometimes conflit still rose between the factions and the Tennos, but it was prosperous nonetheless.

But Ballas wasn't done yet. From his self inflicted status of victim, he seeked help, triying to send gift to reach the origin system again, while accepting being the tool of superior beings. And he found the ultimate weapon to defeat the Tennos : the sentient Natah, Lotus, which was emotionnaly involved. Ballas did what he does best : get under their skin under false pretense, until he obtained more and more power, overpowering them, and thus, overpowered the universe. But he still had to defeat the Tennos to flatter his ego. 

Using the sentient army and the deceived Lotus, he swat away any resistance that weren't even the Tennos ally, until he could face and throw into darkness the last remaining operator, weakened by the manipulated emotionnal bond. Ballas was then standing in the ashes of a enslaved system, pleased of his dominance, while bored of his own loneliness.

The lost Tenno had to find another way to grow, deep inside the realm of possibilities that infinite imagination provide, before even thinking of coming back. And doing so, he had still to try to save the corrupted Lotus before saving himself. A long quest of fighting their own old weapons now turned monsters by the twisted adaptibility Ballas forced upon them, in a quest for control, began. Each step maddening ever more the self proclamed king, jealous and angry at their unstoppable energy, as they would never bow down to his will. And after defeating each one of them, the Tenno could heal her in a final attempt to fight back the mad Orokin.

It was in this ultimate battle, that both the Tenno standing his ground proud of his value and Lotus getting back what he stole from her, with his own trick, that they defeated together his pathetic attempt at consuming the whole sun and destroying the system with it. 

It's a beautiful story.

Now you can replace Ballas with 4thbro, Lotus with yourself, the Tenno with me, the swatted factions as the other people in this thread, and the system with the topic. And it all fit so well. I can't make it up. It's all there.

Are the Tennos virtuous ? Nah, they reached their goals on a river of blood, but they did it for the right reason ; freedom, compassion, altruism.

What would Ballas do in the end if he survived ? Scream lies, fallacies, play victim or run away to find new weapons to do it all over, all again.

Now Im on your side again! Screw Ballas! He is a menace!

[vixenpixel]

Ballas did think his ode to foul chaos, masterpiece. Once glorious, merciless Orokin son, vestige of bygone gods. He made his own tower of dread, built on the blood of betrayal. Kuva a'thrum in his transmog flesh, he faced us at the precipice of stars. That foul man, sacrificer of all in his quest for love, destroyer of worlds to sate jealous heart. A decrepit form bent and morphed, eyes aglow for hate. Vicious vitriol spewed desperate that last twilight. 

....

But even brought low afore this chimeric destroyer, perseverance burned true, a flicker of lingering hope facing his storm. 

It was fate then that his midnight would come at the the mercy of those final notes of pretend. For it's centuries of absence it made a siren's song that could wrench at the soul of even one corrupt to the bone.

And in that fleeting moment, maybe there was peace in that ravenous man? But noone will know save maybe the void. But what does it care for one a void himself?

That ode to foul chaos ended a sputter of madness, dust made afore the stars it craved.

We knew him as Ballas, of twisted love born, of spite made, his own death, the architect. 
 

[Loza03]

8 hours ago, kuciol said:

Calibans 4 main purpose is armor strip, dmg is the secondary effect. Volts 1 can be changed to weapon buff. Both are meant to enchance weapon gameplay. Those abilities do not stop being usefull ever because they have the secondary effects. Its not confusing as you sugest, its called complexity. I see no reason to change that when now weapons and abilities are both used equaly, you want to push abilities above weapons.

Then why oh why is Calibans 4 a trio of laser beams followed by a bomb going off. Why oh why do you need to give up a mod slot for Volt's 1 to have this functionality? Why oh why is what everything every other game designer would use to communicate what these powers are used for saying that damage is at least a major component of these abilities.

 

And as for the whole 'The secondary effects are what makes them useful so it's OK', I've already given reasons as to why this system causes problems. I've reproduced them here:

Quote

 

1: It's confusing and is a contributing factor to Warframe's reputation as convoluted. If the exact same power is used for something completely different, entirely by design later in the game, then that's information the player is taught that then needs to be un-learned later. Or to increase the load a player needs to keep in mind based on how often they vary what levels they're operating at. This is especially notable because abilities as a main damage dealing option isn't just a part of the tutorial, it's literally the first bit of playable action that happens. That'd be like if enemies in Mario stopped being killed by jumping on them halfway through the game.

2: it can create broader user-experience issues. Ember's old 4th ability was a posterchild of the damage problem. It was basically useless in what was then late-game content because the damage was pitiful. But its huge range, lack of Line of Sight requirements and low engagement meant that at levels where it did meaningful damage, Ember players could very easily make it so that new players in public settings had nothing to do whilst a veteran player sat and farmed endless loot. For many players, this is a poor experience, and for others, it sets bad expectations for how the game should be. 

3: It can break new player's builds in a fundamental way. Unlike, for example, a player failing to understand the mod system in a way that can be improved, a build that relies on ability damage at low level (for abilities that aren't the lucky few) won't work through no fault of the new player's own. There's no learning experience - only the simple fact that before this point their build works, and after it doesn't. This is disheartening and frustrating, because the first assumption for a lot of players will be that they're doing something wrong. 

4: It can break veteran player's builds in lower-level content - which isn't nearly as bad as 3, but is still really annoying, and can make grind where you have to engage with lower level content for whatever reason feel like even more of a chore.

5: It leads to less buildcraft expression. Even if the main focus of the game is to have weapons as the foundation of the combat system, some people are gonna want to mess around with other options, even ones evidently sub-optimal. Some people are gonna want to throw around fireballs. The current system puts a hard cap on that, again through no fault of the player's own.

 

 

9 hours ago, kuciol said:

But players like to spam abilities. It is just more fun this way. Its warframe, not mass effect.

And who said every ability has to be given the limiters that abilities that could serve as room-clearing damage options would need?

There's well over two hundred abilities in this game. Plenty of them could stay just as spamamble as they are now. Depending on how the system was implemented, plenty of damage options could be kept as spammable too.

9 hours ago, kuciol said:

Even if not all you open up sunder titania situation for many more things. DE is actively trying to remove afk playstyle from the game.

Unless of course Thermal Sunder was among the abilities that got restrictions, limiting how often it could be spammed and preventing it from having the uptime and availability that makes it so oppressive.

 

[MrInubis]

25 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Then why oh why is Calibans 4 a trio of laser beams followed by a bomb going off. Why oh why do you need to give up a mod slot for Volt's 1 to have this functionality? Why oh why is what everything every other game designer would use to communicate what these powers are used for saying that damage is at least a major component of these abilities.

1. Because it looks cool

2. Oportunity cost in case of volts 1

3. Those abilities just happen to do dmg. You can argue that they should change description and thats about it.

28 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

And who said every ability has to be given the limiters that abilities that could serve as room-clearing damage options would need?

There's well over two hundred abilities in this game. Plenty of them could stay just as spamamble as they are now. Depending on how the system was implemented, plenty of damage options could be kept as spammable too.

You are asking for a rework of 2/3 of the frames when DE takes half a year to do 1. Also they want us to use weapons to kill and abilities to help with that. Its crystal clear to anyone that plays.

 

30 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Unless of course Thermal Sunder was among the abilities that got restrictions, limiting how often it could be spammed and preventing it from having the uptime and availability that makes it so oppressive

But they dont want such limitations. Players also hate them. There is a reason why zenurik is the most recommend focus school for new players.

 

32 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

And as for the whole 'The secondary effects are what makes them useful so it's OK', I've already given reasons as to why this system causes problems. I've reproduced them here:

Those reasons are silly at best. All they say is that complexity is bad because players are stupid. You think players dont have brians and cant figure out what abilities do?

 

How about we remove dmg from every ability with secondary effects? That would solve the issue right? 

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

1. Because it looks cool

This response highlights that you either don't understand a core tenant of game design or are wilfully ignoring it.

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

2. Oportunity cost in case of volts 1

You're arguing that his augment is the core, intended use of Volt's 1st ability. Why does that ability need to take up a mod slot to access that when Mesa's Peacemakers don't?

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

3. Those abilities just happen to do dmg. You can argue that they should change description and thats about it.

Which is why Shock does absolutely nothing but do damage until a player is at least MR 2, and that's if they bypass the intended method of acquiring the augment by trading for it as soon as possible.

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

You are asking for a rework of 2/3 of the frames when DE takes half a year to do 1.

DE have done major systemic reworks before. We just got done with one, after all. And that's  what this ultimately would be, a systemic rework, since the actual function of most of these abilities is untouched.

I'm not denying it'd be a lot of work. But a lot of things that DE have done were a lot of work, and they did it because it made the game better.

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

Also they want us to use weapons to kill and abilities to help with that. Its crystal clear to anyone that plays.

Then why do they keep making frames and abilities that are very clearly designed specifically to kill enemies.

Like Saryn, or Qorvex, or Xaku?

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

Those reasons are silly at best. All they say is that complexity is bad because players are stupid. You think players dont have brians and cant figure out what abilities do?

Reason 1 and 3 discuss the learning issues, and frankly intelligent or not, people still need to be taught. Even the smartest people in the world aren't downloading perfect knowledge out of the ether, they're learning it based on the information they recieve.

The information Warframe is giving is faulty and inaccurate.

Anyway, what about Reasons 2, 4 and 5?

 

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

How about we remove dmg from every ability with secondary effects? That would solve the issue right? 

It would solve some, but it'd highlight the Caliban issue specifically even more (why does the laser now do no damage at all?) and it'd cause a real big problem for anyone deciding to start with Volt. Amongst other issues I don't want to try dig up right now.

Edited August 30 by Loza03

[PublikDomain]

On 2024-08-28 at 6:18 PM, dwqrf said:

You are trying to impose your idea of fun on other. Thing is, I do have fun with warframe now. And it seems like you don't.

I'm not, I would like a game where both of us can have fun with our own ideas of fun. I would like you to have fun with whatever you're playing. I would like me to have fun with the weapons and mechanics I like in the game modes I enjoy. I have said this repeatedly. And I do think that's possible in a way that doesn't take anything away from you - and in fact gives you more ways to have fun. You, on the other hand? I'm not having fun and you don't care. You don't want anything to change that would let me have fun. Who is imposing, here?

On 2024-08-28 at 6:18 PM, dwqrf said:

But it does.

In what way? How? Can you point to anything specific or quantifiable?

On 2024-08-28 at 6:18 PM, dwqrf said:

In the right context.

Which is stupid. It should work in every context. Like, you guys are the ones going on and on and on and on and on about not wanting the game to be "bland" and how terrible it would be, but here you are defending having fewer contexts to use these things in. Which just makes the contexts where they're not useful more bland!

On 2024-08-28 at 6:18 PM, dwqrf said:

Or maybe I'm going to have fun with less things. Maybe i'm going to fight and survive and play and progress in less ways.

How? How will having more options take options away from you? How does 1 + 1 = 0?

[PublikDomain]

On 2024-08-28 at 6:28 PM, kuciol said:

And did it ever kill everything with 1 hit?

It dealt damage similar to all the other damage-dealing abilities at the time, if that's your question. And in many examples it still does!

On 2024-08-28 at 6:28 PM, kuciol said:

It is balanced like this now and somehow you are not happy.

I'm sure DE already balances in a neutral scenario. As they should. Yet they've still created imbalance even within this neutral scenario. That's the part I'm not happy about.

On 2024-08-28 at 6:28 PM, kuciol said:

A lot at the credit farming. You dont understand that his spectral scream main purpose is to change his elements and his 4 is mainly CC.

That's it? Do you remember when Chroma was released when his pelt was useful for it's actual purpose, the "place your pelt down and have it shoot at nearby enemies" thing?

And Spectral Scream's damage swapping was a new mechanic you goof! That was added just a few years ago because Spectral Scream did nothing but damage for the whole 5 years prior! That's an example in support of what I'm saying. In part, that damage-dealing abilities are so terribly useless that DE has no choice but to tack on random extra mechanics and use cases. If damage scaling wasn't so busted Spectral Scream could have stood on its own as a cool, powerful, thematic 1st ability.

[MrInubis]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

This response highlights that you either don't understand a core tenant of game design or are wilfully ignoring it.

The core design is to "sell" the frame, to make you want to take him. Thats literaly it. Why do you think abilities have visuals in the first place? To look cool. For that WoooooW factor. Nothing more.

 

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

You're arguing that his augment is the core, intended use of Volt's 1st ability. Why does that ability need to take up a mod slot to access that when Mesa's Peacemakers don't?

No im arguing that DE wants you to use weapons on later levels thats why they gave you a way to use ability to augment that. Augments exist exacly because of oportunity cost. Peacemakers are weapons and mesa also has augment for them. What stops DE to just roll in the augments as baseline for abilities? Balance and part of it is forcing us to use mods that dont give more power directly.

 

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Which is why Shock does absolutely nothing but do damage until a player is at least MR 2, and that's if they bypass the intended method of acquiring the augment by trading for it as soon as possible.

It also stuns the target. It also happens to be able to kill on early levels. Later on we are suposed to use weapons.

 

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

DE have done major systemic reworks before. We just got done with one, after all. And that's  what this ultimately would be, a systemic rework, since the actual function of most of these abilities is untouched.

I'm not denying it'd be a lot of work. But a lot of things that DE have done were a lot of work, and they did it because it made the game better.

Changing a baseline how factions work is completely different than reworking most abilities. 

 

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Then why do they keep making frames and abilities that are very clearly designed specifically to kill enemies.

Like Saryn, or Qorvex, or Xaku?

Did you even play them? Saryn is mostly weapon platform/caster hybrid. Her dmg ramps up but is there to help kill with weapons, her 3 augments her weapon and she has augment for her 1 to change it into buff. Qorvex cant kill anything on higher levels with his abilities, he is mostly CC/tank frame, same with Xaku, he has dmg buff and disarm. Its almost like frames are different from each other. You have tank frames, stealth frames, caster frames etc. Not every skill must be able to kill everything.

 

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Anyway, what about Reasons 2, 4 and 5?

2. Is bs because DE doesnt want dirsuptive gameplay with ability spam on every frame, they want some frame to do that but not every. Embers 4 was exactly the afk playstyle they want to exterminate

4. i dont even know what you mean but that but veterans build are broken and will kill everything with abilities. You have access to more power than you will ever need. Even wisps electric motes kill stuff on low lvls.

5. Thats just your opinion. You have different types of frames for that purpose. Not every build must be viable. In order to have a good one you need also to have a bad one. Making everything work no matter what makes the game dull and boring. Why even try if you will win anyway? Why improve your build if no matter what you do just works?

 

I get it, you want to make every single frame a caster frame but thats just not going to happen. Not every ability that does dmg must be able to clear the game. If you are so hell bent on the description part than ask DE to change that. You may have more luck with that.

[MrInubis]

13 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

It dealt damage similar to all the other damage-dealing abilities at the time, if that's your question. And in many examples it still does!

Its CC, execute move and creates specter of your choice. Thats plenty going for it to use it. You can still kill things that you used to kill back than. 

 

13 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I'm sure DE already balances in a neutral scenario. As they should. Yet they've still created imbalance even within this neutral scenario. That's the part I'm not happy about.

Because you want them to balance around players with 2000h when majority plays like 100. Game is balanced around normal starchart you know, with normal mods, no arcanes, no rivens etc because loadout must be functional without them. Take it or leave it.

 

13 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

hat's it? Do you remember when Chroma was released when his pelt was useful for it's actual purpose, the "place your pelt down and have it shoot at nearby enemies" thing?

And Spectral Scream's damage swapping was a new mechanic you goof! That was added just a few years ago because Spectral Scream did nothing but damage for the whole 5 years prior! That's an example in support of what I'm saying. In part, that damage-dealing abilities are so terribly useless that DE has no choice but to tack on random extra mechanics and use cases. If damage scaling wasn't so busted Spectral Scream could have stood on its own as a cool, powerful, thematic 1st ability.

We are talking now or ancient times? Game has evolved if you didnt notice. It was shi.t even when Chroma was introduced, nobody used it, it was a meme. Now it has purpose with some "flavor" on top because you know, dragon. DE has made it clear with every rework that they want us to use weapons, not abilities to clear the content. Abilities are just there to enchance the combat unless its a caster frame like Dante. Chromas 4 will never again clear anything because its afk playstyle that DE hates the most.

Edited August 30 by kuciol

[PublikDomain]

On 2024-08-29 at 8:35 AM, kuciol said:

Let me just ask you this. If any AoE skill could kill everything easily than why would you ever use a weapon? The way it is now you use both.

... I mean that's literally what I've been asking you.

If any weapon could kill everything easily then why would you ever use an ability?

If any weapon could kill everything easily then why would you ever shoot an environmental hazard?

If any weapon could kill everything easily then why would you ever use an Archwing ability?

If any weapon could kill everything easily then why would you ever use an Amp?

If any weapon could kill everything easily then why would you ever mount a turret or steal a Dargyn?

If any weapon could kill everything easily then why would you ever use a K-Drive attack or a Kaithe?

If any weapon could kill everything easily then why would you ever use Gale Kick?

As a meme?

But if all of these things can kill everything just as easily as all the others, then the answer is simple. You can use just one of them. Or you can use three of them. Or you can use all of them. Nothing prevents you from engaging with everything the game has to offer and playing in whatever way you desire. Total freedom to do whatever you want.

[PublikDomain]

8 minutes ago, kuciol said:

execute move and creates specter of your choice

And Spectral Scream's Soul Punch's damage swapping instakill and summon was a new mechanic you goof! That was added just a few years ago because Spectral Scream Soul Punch did nothing but damage for the whole 5 7 years prior! That's an example in support of what I'm saying. In part, that damage-dealing abilities are so terribly useless that DE has no choice but to tack on random extra mechanics and use cases. If damage scaling wasn't so busted Spectral Scream Soul Punch could have stood on its own as a cool, powerful, thematic 1st ability.

10 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Because you want them to balance around players with 2000h when majority plays like 100.

Please provide proof of your claims. Maybe you skipped over this since I shrank it in a quote but here, again:

This is from one of [DE]Purzzle's surveys: https://old.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/pcu57f/warframe_surveys_season_finale_results/. Dunno who to believe here: you, or 1,700+ other players... 🤔

19 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Game has evolved if you didnt notice.

And, ironically, here I am saying it should continue to evolve and y'all are the ones acting like it should never change again.

20 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Abilities are just there to enchance the combat unless its a caster frame like Dante.

"Abilities are just there to enhance the combat unless they aren't". lol

[dwqrf]

il y a 16 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

 

This is from one of [DE]Purzzle's surveys: https://old.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/pcu57f/warframe_surveys_season_finale_results/. Dunno who to believe here: you, or 1,700+ other players... 🤔

[MrInubis]

24 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And Spectral Scream's Soul Punch's damage swapping instakill and summon was a new mechanic you goof!

I know and it is the intended way DE want. Again, why bring up ancient times? The fqact that they changed it to this exact way should tell you waht they want. Hint its not 1 hit KO move

 

24 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Please provide proof of your claims. Maybe you skipped over this since I shrank it in a quote but here, again:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/3vwhh1/the_average_playtime_of_warframe_is_63_hours/

A bit dated i know, i just googled it. Do you really believe game is full of maniacs that play it for 5k hours? Such surveys as you posted are worthless because you dont get representative group. Only the most dedicated players are even aware of them. The same reason why very few people even use forums. Players in general do not care, majority is silent.

24 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

"Abilities are just there to enhance the combat unless they aren't". lol

If you dont see the difference betwen frames like Dante and Loki i cant help you. The rules are frame specific not universal. The fact that Saryn has abilities that ramp up doesnt mean every frame should have them. Homogenization is a bad thing. Ask WoW players.

Edited August 30 by kuciol

[4thBro]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

I'm not, I would like a game where both of us can have fun with our own ideas of fun. I would like you to have fun with whatever you're playing. I would like me to have fun with the weapons and mechanics I like in the game modes I enjoy. I have said this repeatedly. And I do think that's possible in a way that doesn't take anything away from you - and in fact gives you more ways to have fun. You, on the other hand? I'm not having fun and you don't care. You don't want anything to change that would let me have fun. Who is imposing, here?

Exactly why it's just fallacious. It's forced. Indeed, how many times are we going to have to repeat exactly what you just said? I have also said this at least 10 times.

 

But...

"Hey, kid... it ain't that kinda thread."

 

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

On 2024-08-28 at 8:18 PM, dwqrf said:

Or maybe I'm going to have fun with less things. Maybe i'm going to fight and survive and play and progress in less ways.

And this really summarizes it.

He is panicking illogically. Just "maybe" this and "maybe" that. Completely afraid of any and all change, just because maybe his bubble will be disrupted.

 

And that's why no argument will ever be good enough. He simply does not want change. There is no such division as good change vs bad change, to him.

Only change.

 

And any change is seen as a threat.

This is why legitimate conversation cannot take place.