Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[Venus-Venera]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb 4thBro:

I honestly think you're better off playing Trinity to make people not die, and have infinite energy, than be giving people damage.

 

Although, honestly, both are kinda moot...

Unfortunately, it's a very poor warframe when compared to current warframes, arcanes, etc.
I only played with Trinity in 2013-2014 with premade. Back then, it was really useful.

[GEN-Son_17]

On 2024-08-02 at 12:04 PM, Kaiga said:

I watched an ad for warframe today.

It showed a rhino battling up the stairs in a tusk plains base, jumping, hitting shots, taking cover, using abilities, finishing enemies, and generally being a space bada$$ in every sense of the word.

Well heck I'd play that game. 

But actual in game warframe?

Slam kong thermal sunder, 24/7. Aoe explosions fill the map. 

There is no threat to the survival of the player, no reason to even remember what the enemies do or even look like, as they're obliterated in seconds by nukes.

Why do any of that cool space ninja stuff from the ad when you can just shoot a rocket launcher at everything?

If this game had even a modicum of difficulty at higher levels, it would be capable of all that combat depth, which is what's being advertised, obviously.

See, this is an example of why some of you guys trip me out when you post stuff like this. New and mid level players come to the forums, decimated by certain missions, looking for help and guidance...only to be met with posts like yours, unknowing that you have years of collected and ranked tools at your disposal, and that you are speaking of a setup that doesn't open up for them for a LONG time. They don't have your stuff and your years of knowledge. And, for those of them who don't like to be handheld by content creators and the wiki, they would have no idea what you're talking about about. 

For reference, I have a couple of friends who are relatively new at the game and they are blown away at how much progression they can look forward to regarding building their power. Each have expressed their struggles on certain levels and how they can't wait to get the higher ranked AOE weapons and arcanes, and are wondering what Cedus amps do. I would understand if THEY posted your message saying how easy the game is but, instead, they would post about needing help MUCH faster. 

I don't thinks vets should be talking about the ease of the game when we've steadily earned our way to having that luxury.

[Grizzlpaw]

3 hours ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

See, this is an example of why some of you guys trip me out when you post stuff like this. New and mid level players come to the forums, decimated by certain missions, looking for help and guidance...only to be met with posts like yours, unknowing that you have years of collected and ranked tools at your disposal, and that you are speaking of a setup that doesn't open up for them for a LONG time. They don't have your stuff and your years of knowledge. And, for those of them who don't like to be handheld by content creators and the wiki, they would have no idea what you're talking about about. 

For reference, I have a couple of friends who are relatively new at the game and they are blown away at how much progression they can look forward to regarding building their power. Each have expressed their struggles on certain levels and how they can't wait to get the higher ranked AOE weapons and arcanes, and are wondering what Cedus amps do. I would understand if THEY posted your message saying how easy the game is but, instead, they would post about needing help MUCH faster. 

I don't thinks vets should be talking about the ease of the game when we've steadily earned our way to having that luxury.

Fair points tbh. 

I still  remember how this game felt before unlocking zenurik. Even with a maxed flow and streamline mod I was always energy starved. I came to the conclusion that warframe abilites didn't matter becasue you rarely got to use them... And when you did theeeey didn't do much. 

Also I didn't play any shooters prior to picking up this game, so the first thing I did upon loading in was pick up a Kunai and miss literally every shot. Good times. 

Its easy to forget that not everyone has access to a kited out arsenal that you've built over 1000's of hours of playtime. 

 

[Xzorn]

18 hours ago, Rexis12 said:

The reason Warframe is easy, is because DE is absolutely S#&$ at making any kind of challenging content that doesn't revolve making the enemies bullet sponges and having the enemies deal all of your health in damage in 0.01 microseconds.

Let me remind ya'll, we just got an update that changed the DR of enemies, in general, to not have something wild to the amount of 99.99% Damage Reduction, that when reduced with the mechanics intended to interact with the DR, will reduce the DR to 99.98%.

 

Unfortunately the game had already been beaten in terms of scaling by the time Shield Gating was added. Both offensive and defensive. When Gara came out we setup a group with 1.4 billion eHP. Shield Gating was just a band-aid that made flaws like this even more obvious. That was 2017.

I don't recall "Damage Sponge Enemies" outside some event stuff like Wolf of Saturn which I made a video for and poked fun at on these forums.
DE had gone from adding armor to enemies that shouldn't have armor to adding flat DR which can't be removed and it was lame.

Armor was never really an issue with old Corrosive status. It only became one again when they changed it. It was about using the right weapons.
High status rate weapons like Torrid, Zarr, Sicarus Prime, Akstilleto Prime, Mutalist Cernos, 100% Sobek and Strun were prized.

 

7 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

Unfortunately, it's a very poor warframe when compared to current warframes, arcanes, etc.
I only played with Trinity in 2013-2014 with premade. Back then, it was really useful.

 

I think she's still good simply because she's very durable. That's all that really matters for scaling now. Your weapons will do the rest.
Her group value has gone down but simply being a player who's always up and shooting is generally enough.

She's clunky but take Citrine and Trinity into a solo. I promise Trinity will outlast Citrine. I like and play both.

[Kaiga]

4 hours ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

I don't thinks vets should be talking about the ease of the game when we've steadily earned our way to having that luxury.

A very new player can buy revenant and an akarius prime, and be 1/3rd of the way there on most of the missions having very little threat of failure.
I'd hardly call that earned power.

[Xzorn]

5 hours ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

See, this is an example of why some of you guys trip me out when you post stuff like this.

 

My biggest hang out on the forums used to be Players Helping Players. Had a lot of fun big brain discussions there.

I don't know if it's due to simplification of the damage systems, modding or what but that spot is fairly dead these days.

[MrInubis]

1 hour ago, Kaiga said:

A very new player can buy revenant and an akarius prime, and be 1/3rd of the way there on most of the missions having very little threat of failure.
I'd hardly call that earned power.

Akarius prime is MR14 weapon, he cant. He also wont have mods.

Edited August 4 by kuciol

[Rexis12]

1 hour ago, Kaiga said:

A very new player can buy revenant and an akarius prime, and be 1/3rd of the way there on most of the missions having very little threat of failure.
I'd hardly call that earned power.

Also the issue of energy economy, because early game Warframe's energy economy is actual hell.

Also, yeah players buying things can skip the process. This isn't new, and would be the same thing back when it was 'challenging' if a Player decided to buy... Hell the Bolter for example which back then had such powerful stats in comparison that DE cut it in half. 

[Kaiga]

57 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Akarius prime is MR14 weapon, he cant. He also wont have mods

Mastery rank isn't (despite what some people enjoy saying) indicative of game knowledge, but rather how much stuff you've collected and sat in ESO with.
Mods, sure, but it doesn't take a great deal of effort to obtain an aoe weapon and wukong/rev and start trivializing.

The point here isn't just in regards to early game. Early game represents only a fraction of the average player's time compared to late and end game, which will have to somehow keep them engaged until the heat death of the universe.

That's really hard to do if you face little challenge.

[MrInubis]

29 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

Mastery rank isn't (despite what some people enjoy saying) indicative of game knowledge, but rather how much stuff you've collected and sat in ESO with.
Mods, sure, but it doesn't take a great deal of effort to obtain an aoe weapon and wukong/rev and start trivializing.

The point here isn't just in regards to early game. Early game represents only a fraction of the average player's time compared to late and end game, which will have to somehow keep them engaged until the heat death of the universe.

That's really hard to do if you face little challenge.

New player cant have this weapon, MR14 generaly knows what he is doing by the sheer amount of grind he already did, he also has mods grinded by that time so again we talk like 150h in . He is not new player. Thats my entire point. Getting normal Wukong requires developed Dojo, new player dont tend to join into clans unless they were invited to play the game by somebody else. Endgame doesnt and will never exist in warframe. You know why? Because its game about collecting. It was never about challenge but about grinding for stuff just to grind for another stuff. Every reward structure and progression systems are about getting new things. Thats the whole point of the game. Everything else is just personal goal, nothing more.

Edited August 4 by kuciol

[4thBro]

5 hours ago, Kaiga said:

Mastery rank isn't (despite what some people enjoy saying) indicative of game knowledge, but rather how much stuff you've collected and sat in ESO with.

THANK you.

 

4 hours ago, kuciol said:

New player cant have this weapon,

New player doesn't NEED that weapon.

Man, I remember being low MR, years and years ago. I just played Frost with Tigris. Gave it some punch through, and was frequently carrying every mission. I remember when my friends thought Mott (non-SP) was super tough. I told them, "Stick with me, and we'll be fine!"

 

Back in the days, my friend.

Back in the days.

 

Low MR players are also fighting "low MR" enemies.

Cut to today, having started playing Warframe in 2017, and I'm still only MR16. I do it half to prove a point that MR means nothing, and half because... lol... well, 4 is my favorite number, so 16 is the next best thing because it's four 4's. So it satisfies my legitimate OCD to sit on 16 as a stopping point. And the game doesn't give me enough reason to go forward with it. Since I don't collect trashy weapons, and only try out things that interest me, I only have enough mastery to maybe push MR22 or so, which is still pretty low considering my play time. But that also kind of proves the point.

The amount of times I see a... whatever the "wrapped around" MR is called, we'll call it MR+ because that information is so irrelevant that I never even learned what it's called...

The amount of times I see an MR+ player die in the first 20 seconds of a Netracell, or have 3% damage done, or something along these lines... It really is the vast majority, if I'm being honest.

 

So, yeah. MR level, in my eyes, certainly doesn't mean anything at all beyond, "I grinded a bunch of stuff in Sanctuary/Hydron."

[4thBro]

4 hours ago, kuciol said:

Everything else is just personal goal, nothing more.

Okay. Good. So you agree, they should add challenging things into WF so that people can have more personal goals.

 

If it doesn't get in anyone's way, why do people fight against this SOOO vehemently???

Is it because, currently, there's not much of a metric for you to see your own shortcomings? But if there was something challenging in the game that you had to avoid because you're not good enough, then it would upset you?

 

Honestly, that's the leading theory. By all means, provide me with a better one. Give me a more believable reason to oppose putting something challenging in the game that doesn't get in the way of other players.

[Kaiga]

6 hours ago, kuciol said:

Thats the whole point of the game. Everything else is just personal goal, nothing more.

This is a bad reason for the late to endgame to be trivially easy once you collect a not particularly difficult amount of stuff. 

Edited August 4 by Kaiga

[MrInubis]

37 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

This is a bad reason for the late to endgame to be trivially easy once you collect a not particularly difficult amount of stuff. 

Why? This is an easy game. Why change that for miniscule percentage of players? Why bother with hard content when almost nobody even goes beyond full rotation on endless missions? This is power fantasy afterall, you are meant to blow up hordes of enemies, Dynasty Warrior style. Why change something that works for years? Thats the main apeal of the game, you dont have to be very skilled to succed in it. 

[MrInubis]

3 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Okay. Good. So you agree, they should add challenging things into WF so that people can have more personal goals.

 

If it doesn't get in anyone's way, why do people fight against this SOOO vehemently???

Is it because, currently, there's not much of a metric for you to see your own shortcomings? But if there was something challenging in the game that you had to avoid because you're not good enough, then it would upset you?

 

Honestly, that's the leading theory. By all means, provide me with a better one. Give me a more believable reason to oppose putting something challenging in the game that doesn't get in the way of other players.

Wrong. I couldnt complete this weeks EDA for example, got bad luck on rotation and that was a flop. Not a big deal. Im not good at the game and im ok with that. Your job is to convince me that its good to add another thing i wont be able to play. Than you must convince everyone who is even worse than me (check archon topics for reference) that its good idea. After that you must convince DE that it will be a good move to waste time and reasorces on game  mode that virtualy nobody will play since very few players plays netracels and EDA, and almost nobody does endurnce runs. Good luck.

[4thBro]

54 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Why? This is an easy game. Why change that for miniscule percentage of players?

This makes multiple incorrect assumptions.

1) Nothing is being changed. You get to keep your stuff how it is.

2) You're also assuming the amount of people that want these types of things. I would wager it's a lot more than you think. People aren't typically satisfied bulldozing easy enemies. If they were, they would play level 5 Earth missions. Seeing as they don't actually do that, this means they understand that there's only meaning to it if the enemies are supposedly strong and can be of any resistance at all.

The disconnect, however, is that some people (as you've stated for yourself) are still a little behind the curve on what they consider decent enemies, and that's fine.

 

But adding what the rest of us want doesn't have to be done in a way where it's "another thing you won't be able to complete and miss out on another set of rewards".

Those of us that want this type of thing aren't wanting it for rewards. So... there doesn't even have to be any. We'll still play it. And if we're playing it, we're putting money into the game on formas and stuff.

Very simple concept here. There's no need to gatekeep it.

[Kaiga]

2 hours ago, kuciol said:

Why? This is an easy game. Why change that for miniscule percentage of players? Why bother with hard content when almost nobody even goes beyond full rotation on endless missions? This is power fantasy afterall, you are meant to blow up hordes of enemies, Dynasty Warrior style. Why change something that works for years? Thats the main apeal of the game, you dont have to be very skilled to succed in it. 

That's just like, your opinion, man.

 

You can also make the endgame rewarding and challenging without you know, doing anything to the early and midgame? 

This also is the same segment of the playerbase who tends to engage the most, be the most knowledgeable, and spend the most money and invest into the game.

Why cater to this segment of the playerbase, you ask. Hmmmmm.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

If you want to play harder games there are harder games out there friend. In short, the only reason Warframe still exists is because it is what it is, if you don't like it it's simply not your type of game.

As i already mentioned, 90% of the game's difficulty level is based on what MOST players demand. Every time DE releases moderately difficult content, people demand that they lower the difficulty or there are cases of people demanding that they disable content just because of its difficulty, so you should focus on other things not on DE content in this case.

This post is not productive, because in the end it is of no use. The vast majority of people will continue to demand that the game be easier and as a result the difficulty will continue to decrease with each new content.

Being stubborn and stup*d doesn't fix reality.

[Kaiga]

5 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

Being stubborn and stup*d doesn't fix reality.

I bet you're fun at parties.

Once again, that's just like, your opinion there man. You're leaning so heavily into the doomed certainty that you personally know what all players want and nothing will change that I'm honestly hearing some fear, if not the aforementioned "OOOWWWAAAAAAAHHHH NOT D-DIFFICULTY! Leave my power fantasy alone!"

 

Edited August 4 by Kaiga

[CosoMalvadoNG]

En 4/8/2024 a las 18:29, Kaiga dijo:

I bet you're fun at parties.

Once again, that's just like, your opinion there man. You're leaning so heavily into the doomed certainty that you personally know what all players want and nothing will change that I'm honestly hearing some fear, if not the aforementioned "OOOWWWAAAAAAAHHHH NOT D-DIFFICULTY! Leave my power fantasy alone!"

 

Ok. You can continue with that but you are not the first to complain about how  is the difficulty in this game, even if time passes and everything becomes easier.

Help yourself.

Edited August 9 by CosoMalvadoNG

[TheArmchairThinker]

On 2024-08-03 at 10:24 PM, PublikDomain said:

I don't really think "solo" and "raids" are compatible ideas. It's just not the point of the content. Old Raids could be done without a full 8-man party, but you still needed a minimum amount because the cooperative mechanics required multiple people cooperating. You can't cooperate by yourself.

Cooperative doesn't mean raid all the time, that's a narrow minded view on cooperative content. You can make cooperative content without turning it into raids

[TheArmchairThinker]

On 2024-08-03 at 9:51 PM, Rexis12 said:

Sure, but more often than not most good games save those heavy bullet sponges and one shots for special units.

Just before the whole Armour Rework a Basic Grineer Lancer had half of the EHP of an Acolyte. 

That is the equivalent of a Common Infected having half the Health of a goddamn Tank in L4D. 

All the whole still having the damage scaling to one shot you. 

Which is the equivalent of that Common Infected having the insta kill abilit of a Witch. 

Warframe doesn't put any brakes on enemy scaling so eventually enemies will hit that point where everything has health of a tank and damage of a witch.

Sure, we can stop that from happening by adding limit on enemy scaling but are you going to enjoy it? Let's say sedna grineer will stay at level 55 after 20 minutes, no higher than that at level range ceiling no matter how long you stay, effectively killing level cap runs

[TheArmchairThinker]

6 hours ago, Kaiga said:

This is a bad reason for the late to endgame to be trivially easy once you collect a not particularly difficult amount of stuff. 

Endgame? You mean that constantly moving goalpost that gives almost zero benefit except ego boasting? And considering you can do level cap even with stug, how can you make "challenge"? All I see in that is simply shoving enemies beyond your stats with tons of modifiers just to be brought down with debuffs to put you on even ground

[Rexis12]

3 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Warframe doesn't put any brakes on enemy scaling so eventually enemies will hit that point where everything has health of a tank and damage of a witch.

Sure, we can stop that from happening by adding limit on enemy scaling but are you going to enjoy it? Let's say sedna grineer will stay at level 55 after 20 minutes, no higher than that at level range ceiling no matter how long you stay, effectively killing level cap runs

I mean, what would you prefer. A game with solid design with enemy types and enemy levels for specific levels that the Devs can consistently balance around, by actually having those levels and DR be a fixed amount meaning they can accurately track the power level of each weapon and Warframe by which part they function best. 

Or Level Cap Runs, which is an anomaly by itself. 

 

[TheArmchairThinker]

11 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

I mean, what would you prefer. A game with solid design with enemy types and enemy levels for specific levels that the Devs can consistently balance around, by actually having those levels and DR be a fixed amount meaning they can accurately track the power level of each weapon and Warframe by which part they function best. 

Or Level Cap Runs, which is an anomaly by itself. 

 

I've played those kind of games and Warframe is the only game I still have positive view so far since you're not locked with power level and "best function". Those so-called balanced game more often than not end up with using only the best while the rest is left behind even if they have interesting play style. Not to mention the best gears are often generic but with the best stats as saving grace, limiting your options