Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[Turboameeba]

You absolutely can find challenging content in Warframe that feels rewarding to kill. If you are in some base SP survival, then no wonder it feels easy.

[MrInubis]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Unless it's a role you don't think it should have? 🤔

Not me but DE. Thats all im saying all this time. What i want is irrelevant. Im just not willfully ignorant to what they want to achieve.

[dwqrf]

il y a une heure, PublikDomain a dit :

Yeah well here's the thing. Despite your strong insistence, most frames are already able to do a bunch of different things. Give Volt his Shock Trooper augment and subsume Speed for Roar and wow now the fast guy is a weapon platform. Can't even go fast anymore. You can subsume Whipclaw off of Khora for another CC ability and make her pure CC. You can subsume Merulina off of Yareli and give her an armor strip and make her a DPS. You can take this "context" y'all have imagined for yourselves and just throw it away. Because that's how little this "context" matters. And that's by DE's own design.

Unless it's a role you don't think it should have? 🤔

And having all this builds variety and possibilities is a lot of fun ! Much more than having no speed frames, no cc frames, no weapons plateform frames, no dps frames as you are so strongly advocating for...

[dwqrf]

il y a une heure, 4thBro a dit :

 

Jesus... What an absolute shocker...

 

Like I said, not even myself and a moderator could bring this thread back on topic. You even READ my post, and still chose to avoid answering it, and chose to remain off-topic instead. I didn't choose that for you. That was your own choice. And that was the loss. That was you admitting that you did not like your own answer to my question, and decided not to continue along with that sequence of dialogue because it would not reflect well on you.

 

Nobody would have guessed.

Because that wasn't strawmanning.

 

You have said... probably at least TWENTY TIMES in this thread that WF is exactly the way you want it.

Are you really going to make me go quote every single time you said it? Are you really going to pretend like you didn't??? In front of EVERYONE here, you're going to pretend like you didn't say the thing that you've probably said the most in this thread???

 

 

 

 

Come on, guys. Can we just stop? I... LITERALLY do not know how it could be more clear that they aren't being genuine. Apart from them outright saying, "Yeah haha we've been trolling you this whole time!"

Muting works both ways you know. Now, we know you are losing it. Logic hurt your ego.

The simple fact you can't understand people can enjoy things the way they are, instead of trying to change them to their egoist will, says a lot about you. Warframe isn't perfect, and a lot of things could change, for the best or for the worst. But that doesn't mean I can't accept and enjoy reality.

You, on the other end, live in total fantasy land. Not only you think the game is too easy, but you also only play a Mirage in normal star chart. Ha !

You want to quote me saying otherwise ? Do it... Ho wait, nah, as every questions we asked you, you are going to deflect and ignore it because it doesn't fit your twisted narrative. Another bunch of empty threat. Sad.

[4thBro]

20 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

The simple fact you can't understand people can enjoy things the way they are, instead of trying to change them to their egoist will, says a lot about you.

Wait - so - now you're back to saying that the game is perfect the way it is???

Which is it? It seems to morph depending on whatever it needs to be to fit your sentence.

Can you please declare your one true statement?

 

21 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

You, on the other end, live in total fantasy land. Not only you think the game is too easy, but you also only play a Mirage in normal star chart. Ha !

What are you even talking about, I haven't touched normal star chart in... god knows how many years.

Where did you even pull that assumption from?

Are you going to answer for ANY of these wild, baseless claims that you keep throwing around at people???

 

 

 

 

Don't quote or tag me, or talk to or about me, unless it's to remain on topic and/or answer questions that have been pending on you for over 30 pages now.

You are quite literally harassing people "at this point," which I put in quotations because you've been doing it. You're intentionally trolling. You make wild claims and then never address them.

That's trolling. And I might just start reporting you for it. Which is crazy, because I never report. I prefer to fight my own battles. But you're just... literally not stopping.

 

41 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

You want to quote me saying otherwise ? Do it... Ho wait, nah, as every questions we asked you, you are going to deflect and ignore it because it doesn't fit your twisted narrative. Another bunch of empty threat. Sad.

Are you really challenging me, to my face, to quote you saying that you think WF is perfect the way it is???

I can't tell if this is you being an A.I. script that's moving in my opposite direction again, or if you're challenging my stubbornness and dedication to actually do the task at hand. And may I remind you that I'm the guy that made multiple visual charts/diagrams to help illustrate your fallacies in your posts.

 

I'm on the case, big dog. My next post will be all of your quotes in this entire thread that state that WF is just fine the way it is, and should not be changed.

[dwqrf]

il y a 5 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

Wait - so - now you're back to saying that the game is perfect the way it is???

Which is it? It seems to morph depending on whatever it needs to be to fit your sentence.

Can you please declare your one true statement?

 

What are you even talking about, I haven't touched normal star chart in... god knows how many years.

Where did you even pull that assumption from?

Are you going to answer for ANY of these wild, baseless claims that you keep throwing around at people???

 

 

 

 

Don't quote or tag me, or talk to or about me, unless it's to remain on topic and/or answer questions that have been pending on you for over 30 pages now.

You are quite literally harassing people "at this point," which I put in quotations because you've been doing it. You're intentionally trolling. You make wild claims and then never address them.

That's trolling. And I might just start reporting you for it. Which is crazy, because I never report. I prefer to fight my own battles. But you're just... literally not stopping.

 

Are you really challenging me, to my face, to quote you saying that you think WF is perfect the way it is???

I can't tell if this is you being an A.I. script that's moving in my opposite direction again, or if you're challenging my stubbornness and dedication to actually do the task at hand. And may I remind you that I'm the guy that made multiple visual charts/diagrams to help illustrate your fallacies in your posts.

 

I'm on the case, big dog. My next post will be all of your quotes in this entire thread that state that WF is just fine the way it is, and should not be changed.

I think you are projecting again.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

Not me but DE. Thats all im saying all this time. What i want is irrelevant. Im just not willfully ignorant to what they want to achieve.

But DE are the ones allowing us to use mechanics like Helminth to make any frame do anything? They're the ones balancing frames so they're all equally good?

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

And having all this builds variety and possibilities is a lot of fun ! Much more than having no speed frames, no cc frames, no weapons plateform frames, no dps frames as you are so strongly advocating for...

And there you go again blatantly lying again. 🙄

[dwqrf]

il y a 9 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

And there you go again blatantly lying again. 

How so ? You said it yourself, you want to bring up weak, or bring down strong weapons in the game. And you want to bring up weak, and bring down strong, spells in the game. Right ? That's what stat-squishing is about, isn't it ? By doing so, every weapons will do damage OR no weapons will do damage. Same with spell. Isn't that your whole point ? To make everything as valuable as the rest, and so, as useless as the rest ? Don't you agree it's same-same ?

Edited September 1 by dwqrf

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

How so ? You said it yourself, you want to bring up weak, or bring down strong weapons in the game. And you want to bring up weak, and bring down strong, every spells in the game. Right ? That's what stat-squishing is about, isn't it ?

Correct.

2 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

By doing so, every weapons will do damage OR no weapons will do damage. Same with spell. Isn't that your whole point ?

Correct.

And in the latter case, enemy EHP can be adjusted so the strongest weapons deal the same relative damage they deal now. Same TTK, same gameplay, same feeling of power, same everything. Just now with more.

2 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

To make everything as valuable as the rest, and so, as useless as the rest ? 

This is where you're incorrect, and also where you go right off the rails into making up your blatant lies. There is no "useless". Everything is as valuable as the rest. That part is true. And that means that everything is equally good. Nothing is useless.

You're still pointing at a beaker, acting like one is "useless" and the other isn't even though they're the same. They're the same, bud. You've just fallen for an optical illusion.

Nevermind that this is all talking about balancing damage systems and TTK, which has nothing to do with any of this made-up nonsense:

2 hours ago, dwqrf said:

no speed frames, no cc frames, no weapons plateform frames, no dps frames as you are so strongly advocating for...

... where you've taken "everything should be good" and then ran off screaming "HE WANTS EVERYTHING TO BE BAD" like a fool.

[4thBro]

Oh my GOD it was so anxiety-inducing, reading through your posts again. You really boil the blood, I want you to know that.

 

  

On 2024-08-21 at 1:37 PM, dwqrf said:

Yes I did answer : I like the game the way it is now ; I don't need my weapons to be buffed, or nerfed, and the endgame become even more of a hassle as it is actually. It's just fine. I can accept the way the game is now. You don't.

  

On 2024-08-30 at 6:02 PM, dwqrf said:

Well, trying to change Warframe into TFD by adding restrictions like stats-squish balance, cooldown, abilities doing more damage than weapons, and such, is a bad choice in my own experience, because i've tried it ; and from that experience, which I have, and you don't, I know for sure that the lack of balance and the chaos of Warframe is what makes it a beautiful and enjoyable game for everyone.

 

On 2024-08-30 at 5:38 PM, dwqrf said:

It's like if this topic was about how to improve checker, and you would argue that checker need horses, pawn, tower, king, and queen, and i'd say "ho yeah like chess" and you'd say "ho yeah, I don't like the color or the chess board so no I won't play chess, but we should change checkers". 

  

On 2024-08-28 at 8:18 PM, dwqrf said:

Thing is, I do have fun with warframe now. And it seems like you don't. If you did, you wouldn't make 23879 gazillions projects of how to change the game to become another type of fun designed by you, for you. How do you suppose your imaginary result would be enjoyed by people like me ? See, I have a perfect example of something fun for me now : the game as is it now. But you want to change it.

  

On 2024-08-26 at 1:31 PM, dwqrf said:

People trying to change Warframe into something it's not don't realize a lot of people are still having fun

  

On 2024-08-24 at 7:03 PM, dwqrf said:

Well, I can enjoy the game and its endgame content ; you can't and want to change it.

  

On 2024-08-24 at 4:12 PM, dwqrf said:

And the worst part is that they are always going to try to change the things around them to catter to their egoistic needs

  

On 2024-08-23 at 11:03 AM, dwqrf said:

What about you go play some The First Descendant to see how well a perfectly stats-squished Warframe feels to play, both in progression and in endgame, instead of trying to change the game into something it is not ?

 

I'll be honest.

My original plan was to start at page 1 and just read through all your posts.

But holy **** I stopped doing that pretty quickly. Instead, I started searching key phrases:

• "the way it is"
• "how it is"
• "i like"
• "change"

 

Those are the phrases I searched for. In doing so, I surely missed a LOT of quotes from you. But this should still be more than enough to prove my point.

 

I also found some random gems:

 

  

On 2024-08-22 at 9:06 PM, dwqrf said:

most people don't even do those choices themselves as guides and videos tell them the solutions straight away. And when change happens, they are lost ; while experienced players can adapt quickly.

Quite an interesting quote from a guy that's spent this entire thread TERRIFIED of change.

 

 

And then another really funny one here.

You literally spend the first half of this post talking about how you embrace every change that DE makes.

And then you proceed to tell us about how "sad" (your words) the Grendel change was.

 

So, unsurprisingly, it appears that you are merely SELECTIVE in just how much you "fully embrace the game the way it is."

Just enough to make yourself look like the good guy, but not quite enough to be able to truck through the times that it seems to effect you directly.

VERY interesting! 🤔

 

 

 

 

You've really written yourself into a corner, haven't you?

 

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

How so ? You said it yourself, you want to bring up weak, or bring down strong weapons in the game. And you want to bring up weak, and bring down strong, spells in the game. Right ? That's what stat-squishing is about, isn't it ? By doing so, every weapons will do damage OR no weapons will do damage. Same with spell. Isn't that your whole point ? To make everything as valuable as the rest, and so, as useless as the rest ? Don't you agree it's same-same ?

It IS the same, just not in the way you are trying to imply it.

 

Would everything be equally as useless?

Yes.

0%.

Everything would equally be 0% useless.

 

See how it no longer has that negative connotation you tried to inject into it with your misleading choice of words?

 

 

 

 

At any rate, let's get back to the matter at hand. Let's see if you respond at all.

 

----------

If we had a difficult endgame* that did not interfere with what YOU like about Warframe, would you be okay with its addition?

@dwqrf @kuciol

[MrInubis]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

But DE are the ones allowing us to use mechanics like Helminth to make any frame do anything? They're the ones balancing frames so they're all equally good?

Not anything, helminth is very limited and powerfull options got nerfed. Frames are far from equaly good and DE said multiple times that theme is more important than balance.

[4thBro]

 

 

 

 

... And in response to that:

 

I actually AGREE with that sentiment. Theme being more important than balance is great for the fun of the game.

However, A being more important than B doesn't mean that B isn't important. In fact, B very well may be the SECOND MOST IMPORTANT thing! And I'd even agree with that sentiment, as well.

 

If you prioritize theme first and balance second, then everything looks and feels great, AND nobody falls behind, as well. If balance ranks highly in your list, then everyone gets to enjoy great thematic experiences while also not feeling like they're being punished for having their favorites.

 

"Theme more important than balance" is not a statement that says balance is unimportant.

Edited September 1 by 4thBro

[dwqrf]

il y a une heure, PublikDomain a dit :

Correct.

Correct.

And in the latter case, enemy EHP can be adjusted so the strongest weapons deal the same relative damage they deal now. Same TTK, same gameplay, same feeling of power, same everything. Just now with more.

This is where you're incorrect, and also where you go right off the rails into making up your blatant lies. There is no "useless". Everything is as valuable as the rest. That part is true. And that means that everything is equally good. Nothing is useless.

You're still pointing at a beaker, acting like one is "useless" and the other isn't even though they're the same. They're the same, bud. You've just fallen for an optical illusion.

Nevermind that this is all talking about balancing damage systems and TTK, which has nothing to do with any of this made-up nonsense:

... where you've taken "everything should be good" and then ran off screaming "HE WANTS EVERYTHING TO BE BAD" like a fool.

But how do you determine what is "good" (or what is "bad" as it's the exact same things ; so some people might see it as good dps, while some people might not), what's the value here ? I genuinely want to know, I want to see the extent of your thought.. If those two bekkers are exactly the same, in which content are they overpowered and in which content they aren't ? Elaborate.

[4thBro]

58 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

But how do you determine what is "good" (or what is "bad" as it's the exact same things ; so some people might see it as good dps, while some people might not), what's the value here ? I genuinely want to know, I want to see the extent of your thought.. If those two bekkers are exactly the same, in which content are they overpowered and in which content they aren't ? Elaborate.

There are only two things in this game.

 

Killing lots of normal enemies at once, or killing bosses that possess damage attenuation.

 

For the former, you want SOME form of aoe, whether that's a circle aoe, a straight line aoe, or a chain effect. (Or something else, whatever.)

For the latter, you want whatever kills the boss at a good speed.

 

Both are measured subjectively. For example, if you're okay with your loadout taking 10 minutes to kill an Archon, then so be it, right? I just don't think most people want that. And, by comparison, other people can 1-shot an Archon, so you tell me what's good and what's bad for you.

Also for example, if you WANTED to, you could go around killing 1 enemy at a time, having no aoe at all. I just don't think you'll enjoy it very much, and you'll find that spawn rates far surpass your clear rates, and you may get overwhelmed, and even unable to finish a certain objective because of it. This could define the "need" for a certain kill speed. But, ultimately, if you're able to clear the mission, then all that's left is the subjective area. I just think most people would have a range that's a bit above "bare minimum."

 

For myself, I don't need my loadouts to be the best sh** ever. But I have some gray area on "good enough" that I couldn't really define, nor do I see the reason to need to do so.

Edited September 1 by 4thBro

[PublikDomain]

50 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

But how do you determine what is "good" (or what is "bad" as it's the exact same things ; so some people might see it as good dps, while some people might not), what's the value here ?

Do you mean as a developer trying to determine where to place content, or as a player trying to find good gear? I'll answer both:

If it's the former, it's simple: you open the game and play it. Go to the hard mode content like EDA or SP. Do the enemies feel too spongy in the hard mode content? Then lower their EHP. Do the enemies die before they can do anything in the hard mode content? Then raise their EHP. Now go to the easy mode content like the starchart. Do the enemies feel too spongy in the easy mode content? Then lower their EHP. Do the enemies die before they can do anything in the easy mode content? Then that's probably fine. It's basic S#&$. DE just did this when rebalancing enemy scaling curves to stat-squish Armor scaling and make the bland Armor-stripping meta less mandatory. Ain't hard.

If it's the latter, it's even simpler! You equip the item. It is good! You don't need to determine anything. It's all good. This is good. That is good. That thing over there is good. Instead what you get to determine is what you like. Do you like snipers? They're good! Do you like damage-dealing abilities? They're good! Do you like rocket launchers? They're good! Do you want to be a beast-master with a bunch of pet summons? They're good! Do you want to kill people with a K-Drive ability? They're good!

And the "value" here, as I've explained over and over again to you, is that more content that currently sucks will no longer suck as much, which means more of it can be included in our gameplay instead of ignored. That means more variety, more options, less bland.

56 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

If those two bekkers are exactly the same, in which content are they overpowered and in which content they aren't ? Elaborate.

What is there to elaborate? You'll be overpowered in the easy content with both, and underpowered in the challenge content with both. As you should be.

And to be clear, again, this "exactly the same" thing is just more of your imagination. Things don't need to be identical. I've said this over and over again. They should just be close enough that they're all good. If I can kill 100 enemies a minute with a gun and 80 enemies a minute with my K-Drive, then that's just fine!

[dwqrf]

il y a 18 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

You don't need to determine anything. It's all good. This is good. That is good. That thing over there is good. Instead what you get to determine is what you like. Do you like snipers? They're good! Do you like damage-dealing abilities? They're good! Do you like rocket launchers? They're good! Do you want to be a beast-master with a bunch of pet summons? They're good! Do you want to kill people with a K-Drive ability? They're good!

So from a logical point of view, they are all equally bad, too. No possible improvement anywhere. That's a fact.

-

So why would anyone farm any gear ? "Just because".

Would players strive to get better gear forward in the progression ? "No because all his good".

Would that game make players do mistake and learn anything and grow ? "No because all is good".

Would players need to mod accordingly their gear to the stats of the weapons and the enemies you are facing ? "No because all is good".

Would players need to use their brains before making any choice ? "No because all is good".

Would players have any chance to fail a mission because they are not prepared ? "No because all is good".

 

Here is a participation trophy. You won the game with your mk1 weapons. All is good. 

[4thBro]

Just now, dwqrf said:

So why would anyone farm any gear ?

Because they think the Baza is cooler than the Bramma.

 

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

Would players strive to get better gear forward in the progression ?

They strive to get the thematic gear that they prefer.

Which is already how it is. If you think people currently only strive to get "the best thing," then they'd be done after 1 primary, 1 secondary, and 1 melee. But the game doesn't even currently play out that way, now, does it? Look at me, for example. I ONLY farm for things that I like. I have ZERO inclination to farm for MR, and there are MANY top tier weapons and Frames that I have never had any interest in getting. EVERYTHING that I have is because I like it.

 

14 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Would that game make players do mistake and learn anything and grow ?

Uhh... I don't really get what you're asking here.

Yes, players can still make mistakes.

─Are you suggesting that the current iteration of the game has bad weapons in it as intentional bait, as mistakes that the players can make and thus grow from???

Does that really seem like good game design to you???

 

16 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Would players need to mod accordingly their gear to the stats of the weapons and the enemies you are facing ?

Yes, because weapons STILL have different stats and mechanics. You seem to be under the impression that "balance = homogenization," and that's not the case. A sniper rifle isn't going to be shooting rockets with 12m explosion radiuses with a base multishot of 12 because it has to be a sniper/launcher/shotgun all in one. And it's not gonna have 100% crit chance and 100% status chance with 1200 base damage per multi.

 

Weapons still maintain all of their traits that make them unique, lol.

Balance just means that if something is way behind, then its unique trait gets buffed so that it's a stronger version of whatever unique thing it brings to the table.

 

18 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Would players need to use their brains before making any choice ?

... Yes?

... Or no?

 

Honestly, I don't think they CURRENTLY do.

So if the answer is no after a massive balance patch, then so be it, it's no different than it is now.

But if the answer becomes yes, because now there's not something that's just "blatantly the strongest," then that's just better than what we have now, right?

 

19 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Would players have any chance to fail a mission because they are not prepared ?

Again, can players CURRENTLY fail any mission, other than Defense???

 

The answer is just as much Yes to a balanced version of WF as it is an unbalanced version of WF. In fact, your argument is once again using weaker weapons as BAIT for some players to MAKE THE MISTAKE of taking with them on a mission, just so that missions can be failed.

Is that really good game design to you???

 

You still need to be prepared. You still need to perform well. You still need to mod properly. You still need to do all of the same things. You just wouldn't have bait weapons, which, for some reason, you seem to want in the game.

 

 

 

 

22 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Here is a participation trophy. You won the game with your mk1 weapons. All is good. 

Made me think of something that's on this topic:

 

This is what Rivens were SUPPOSED to do. They would give astronomical stats to weapons that are widely unused, and minimal stats to weapons most used.

Somewhere down the road, this design kind of fell off, and it's hard to pinpoint why. (But if I were to guess, I'd say this functionality of Rivens fell off because there became too many other sources of damage scaling outside mods, and even within mods themselves, a lot of them became so strong that a Riven slot became a lot smaller of an overall multiplier anyway.)

[PublikDomain]

52 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

So from a logical point of view, they are all equally bad, too.

And yet your capabilities can be the same as what they are now. That's the whole point. Are you bad now? No? Then there shouldn't be a problem.

And your stuff isn't going to suddenly be bad just because some other stuff is good too. When DE adds the 5 new Incarnons to buff those weapons in the next update, is that making you weaker? No. Duh.

52 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

No possible improvement anywhere. That's a fact.

Your "fact" is just plain wrong. There are still plenty of vertical power improvements to be had! Like mods, Forma, potatoes, Arcanes, unlockers, Rivens, etc. There can even still be some vertical power improvements from gear selection! The only difference would be that the vertical power progression from base gear selection is now much less important. And as a result everything else (like modding and skill) becomes more important. And because of that this...

52 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

So why would anyone farm any gear ? "Just because".

Would players strive to get better gear forward in the progression ? "No because all his good".

Would that game make players do mistake and learn anything and grow ? "No because all is good".

Would players need to mod accordingly their gear to the stats of the weapons and the enemies you are facing ? "No because all is good".

Would players need to use their brains before making any choice ? "No because all is good".

Would players have any chance to fail a mission because they are not prepared ? "No because all is good".

... has some really simple answers!

Yes. People would farm items for Mastery, just like they already do today, but now also for fun! And they'd know that every grind for every new piece gear will be worth it and not wasted. How terrible :(

Yes. Because gear is still allowed to be a little bit better. Any of you too preoccupied with making your number go up can still hyper-focus on that and continue to ignore the rest of the game's mechanics. Knock yourself out. The rest of us will have fun with all that content you ignore without you.

I'm not sure what this sentence means. Like, grammatically. But if you're asking "would players be able to learn from their mistakes", uh, yes. Duh.

Yes. Because you're still modding.

Yes. In actual gameplay and in modding.

Yes. Not sure why you think this would change.

🤷‍♀️

Edited September 1 by PublikDomain

[dwqrf]

il y a 4 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

And yet your capabilities can be the same as what they are now. That's the whole point. Are you bad now? No? Then there shouldn't be a problem.

And your stuff isn't going to suddenly be bad just because some other stuff is good too. When DE adds the 5 new Incarnons to buff those weapons in the next update, is that making you weaker? No. Duh.

🤷‍♀️

No, they wouldn't. Because a kuva/tenet/incarnon would do the same dps as a mk1. So they are both equally good, and both equally bad. So compared to starting gear, there is no improvement.

I couldn't wait for DE to add 5 new mk1 for credits because who would bother farming SP circuit for no power increase.

il y a 12 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

Your "fact" is just plain wrong. There are still plenty of vertical power improvements to be had! Like mods, Forma, potatoes, Arcanes, unlockers, Rivens, etc. There can even still be some vertical power improvements from gear selection! The only difference would be that the vertical power progression from base gear selection is now much less important. And as a result everything else (like modding and skill) becomes more important. 

🤷‍♀️

All-in potatoes and formas into starting weapons and never bother farming any upgrading ressources anymore.

 

il y a 15 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

Yes. People would farm items for Mastery, just like they already do today, but now also for fun! And they'd know that every grind for every new piece gear will be worth it and not wasted. How terrible :(

Yes. Because gear is still allowed to be a little bit better. Any of you too preoccupied with making your number go up can still hyper-focus on that and continue to ignore the rest of the game's mechanics. Knock yourself out. The rest of us will have fun with all that content you ignore without you.

I'm not sure what this sentence means. Like, grammatically. But if you're asking "would players be able to learn from their mistakes", uh, yes. Duh.

Yes. Because you're still modding.

Yes. In actual gameplay and in modding.

Yes. Not sure why you think this would change.

🤷‍♀️

No, because all pieces of gear will be a waste of time and ressources as it would not make you gain any power, as they are all as bas as each others.

No, because people can't have fun knowing they play sub optimal gear. Either it's all the same, or there is huge variable, no in between. You can't even have fun playing paracyst now, even if you could.

No, because people won't be able to do mistakes as it's all the same.

No, because after stats squishing weapons and spells, you'll have to stats squishing every mods too, so everything is 'fun and balanced', no room for mistakes or choices, every mod will have the same flat value per slot.

No, because as every piece of gear will work in any context, pressing spells or clicking will have the same result, any spells or any weapons included, resulting in lack of failure even if your cat is running on the keyboard.

Also, to make every weapons similar dps-wise, they will all features a 12m aoe on impact. It's a horde shooter, 'member.

[Loza03]

8 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Intending to misslead is extremely different than being factually incorrect, and I also can quite legitimately suppose that you didn't fact check it in the right set up. None of the informations you provided also are factually true, as in "Volt 1 bad" when you dismissed whole part of the frame as in passive or augment, which are whole part of the context.

Intending to mislead is different than being factually incorrect, but they both make you an unreliable source. 

(Also I have addressed the augment part. Multiple times.)

8 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Secondly, I've never claimed that Caliban was a caster frame, because -being able to kill with spells-  and -using only spells to kill- are a whole different world ; so that's only your own assumption twisting words. In fact, as they all features duration and that you try so hard to spam them highlight again you don't know what context means. But that doesn't mean the damage part of the spells exist for no reasons or cannot be considered useful. We know your point of view is biased as you want every spell in the game to be on the damage level of Saryn 1+4 or Khora 1+incarnon or Excalibur 4, but that's not the case. In fact, we could divide any frame with a metric of damage component/utility/defense and they will have roughly the same total score. Those metric and the total score are different than what you think is good or right, for a game which you consider a rpg, but that's your own ideas that exist mainly in your head versus some hard existing truth which is the game itself, which you ignore when we point out context.

Oh god you're using that straw man of me Kuciol loves so much too now.

Part of my whole point is that the concept of a 'Caster frame' is a made-up concept in this game. You and Kuciol don't even agree about who is a caster and who isn't. This isn't Overwatch or Final Fantasy 14 where frames get little boxes they get put in. I've acknowledged numerous times that plenty of abilities don't need to be hardcore damage dealing monsters. However, the current set up of fixed damage (as opposed to the mod system used by weapons) presents numerous issues.

Nobody is asking for Styanax's 1 to nuke rooms. Nobody's even asking for it to be as powerful as damage option as Excalibur's Exalted blade, or Saryn.

But maybe the ability where you impale a person should wind up with them actually getting impaled.

9 hours ago, dwqrf said:

You are again misslead by description and visual without understanding it's marketing and aesthetic. Atlas may look strong, but he isn't, and Yareli might look weak, but she isn't. You want visually stunning spells to do as much damage as you think they should, but that's only your imagination that's hurt when they don't do what you think they do. Your perception is the issue, not the facts.

And that's poor visual design. And that's not on the visual artist's fault here, because in literally every other aspect of the game it all lines up. Atlas's abilities visually line up with him being a strong punchy boy, and Yareli's a mobile dextrous trickster. 

As it turns out, there's a reason I have these perceptions! Because the point of visual design and marketing and aesthetic is to manufacture those perceptions.

16 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Then, you claim Dante has a damage buff ; supposing you are talking about Wordwarden, it doesn't boost or buff any damage, as it is its own instance of -added- damage which would be highly dependant on %power, noctua's build, and weapons usage.

Then Wisp is  disqualified as a 'Weapons Platform' frame. Breach Surge is an added damage based on %power, after all!

16 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Then, while Overguard can scale to high numbers, it's only big numbers never talking into account any %damage reduction, making it much less interesting that expected, but as you said it many times, people are often stuck on superficial impression. The strenght of OG reside highly in control/status immunity. Also, Dante doesn't generate OG with damage, but rather with kills, and that's over time, which is highly situationnal. A bit like Trumna potency of charging alt fire vs incarnons kind of debate. Also, the main mean of Dante's own survival isn't just OG, as paragrims having higher aggro and immortal state make the ultimate damage negation by avoidance/redirect much stronger than any traditionnal layers of protection ; like Caliban's Progeny.

Then Rhino is disqualified as a Tank frame, as he only has high amounts of Overguard, and doesn't even have Paragrimms to redirect aggro.

 

15 hours ago, kuciol said:

Support/caster. Noctua is better as utility tool since you can put any number of tome  mods on it. You can build it for dmg but it will be overall subpar to ther options and will hinder his other abilities. Again the fact that something is possible doesnt mean its the intended way.

Ah yes, a classic - ignoring all the points made to confidently state an opinion.

15 hours ago, kuciol said:

DE does. Dude you have 2 giant walls smashing as grouping ability (Qorvex) and tiny mosquitos ripping enemies apart (titanias razorflies). Its just visuals. In the end its just a game. Abilities are made to look cool.

I'll have more time and energy tomorrow, and I'll put something together because you and apparently @dwqrf still don't get it.

15 hours ago, kuciol said:

Caliban is not a caster. Just because Husain Bolt can drive a car doesnt make him a racer. Saryn was reworked to make her more active again proving that DE prefers weapon gameplay over abilities. Abilities are meant to support weapons not the other way around.

He fits the definition you gave. 

 According to your definition, a caster frame is a frame that can kill by spamming abilities, even in end-game content.

Caliban is very much on the weaker end of that scale, barely scraping in there but it's undeniable that he can do it, with abilities DE gave us to do.

16 hours ago, kuciol said:

Frames can fit multiple roles, think of it as multiclassing. It doesnt change the fact that DE is making clear that they want the opposite of what you want.

I'm well aware Frames can fit multiple roles. In fact, I'm aware that most 'roles' in Warframe are relatively arbitrary, with multiple frames able to access them on some level if you build them right, and that DE have even gone out of their way to let players do so.

[MrInubis]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

According to your definition, a caster frame is a frame that can kill by spamming abilities, even in end-game content.

Caliban is very much on the weaker end of that scale, barely scraping in there but it's undeniable that he can do it, with abilities DE gave us to do.

Again the fact that something is possibile does not make it the intended way. It is clear what DEs intentions are.

 

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

I'll have more time and energy tomorrow, and I'll put something together because you and apparently @dwqrf still don't get it.

Dont bother, it will still just be your opinion and expectations. 

 

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

I'm well aware Frames can fit multiple roles. In fact, I'm aware that most 'roles' in Warframe are relatively arbitrary, with multiple frames able to access them on some level if you build them right, and that DE have even gone out of their way to let players do so.

Yes DE gave that possibility and DE decided that some abilities should not kill in the endgame and be used to enchance weapon gameplay.

 

I dont get why you have so hard time understanding that DE doesnt want what you have in mind. They would do so if they wanted to. You just keep repeating yourself like that would accomplish something. No matter what you feel about it or how you think abilities at endgame should be used its not for you to decide. It DEs choice to make and they made different one than you want.

[4thBro]

 

 

 

Something I found while looking for the name of a fallacy in which the user assumes to know the intentions of another party.

Close enough, eh?

[dwqrf]

Il y a 3 heures, Loza03 a dit :

Intending to mislead is different than being factually incorrect, but they both make you an unreliable source. 

(Also I have addressed the augment part. Multiple times.)

Oh god you're using that straw man of me Kuciol loves so much too now.

Part of my whole point is that the concept of a 'Caster frame' is a made-up concept in this game. You and Kuciol don't even agree about who is a caster and who isn't. This isn't Overwatch or Final Fantasy 14 where frames get little boxes they get put in. I've acknowledged numerous times that plenty of abilities don't need to be hardcore damage dealing monsters. However, the current set up of fixed damage (as opposed to the mod system used by weapons) presents numerous issues.

Nobody is asking for Styanax's 1 to nuke rooms. Nobody's even asking for it to be as powerful as damage option as Excalibur's Exalted blade, or Saryn.

But maybe the ability where you impale a person should wind up with them actually getting impaled.

And that's poor visual design. And that's not on the visual artist's fault here, because in literally every other aspect of the game it all lines up. Atlas's abilities visually line up with him being a strong punchy boy, and Yareli's a mobile dextrous trickster. 

As it turns out, there's a reason I have these perceptions! Because the point of visual design and marketing and aesthetic is to manufacture those perceptions.

Then Wisp is  disqualified as a 'Weapons Platform' frame. Breach Surge is an added damage based on %power, after all!

Then Rhino is disqualified as a Tank frame, as he only has high amounts of Overguard, and doesn't even have Paragrimms to redirect aggro.

 

Ah yes, a classic - ignoring all the points made to confidently state an opinion.

I'll have more time and energy tomorrow, and I'll put something together because you and apparently @dwqrf still don't get it.

He fits the definition you gave. 

 According to your definition, a caster frame is a frame that can kill by spamming abilities, even in end-game content.

Caliban is very much on the weaker end of that scale, barely scraping in there but it's undeniable that he can do it, with abilities DE gave us to do.

I'm well aware Frames can fit multiple roles. In fact, I'm aware that most 'roles' in Warframe are relatively arbitrary, with multiple frames able to access them on some level if you build them right, and that DE have even gone out of their way to let players do so.

As you say yourself, fact matters, and as you were just wrong about a whole post on Dante, that makes you a highly unreliable source too. So your opinion might not be reliable too.

Also, you are the one trying really hard to put any and every frames into hard stuck roles, so we have to use a mostly generic vocabulary to explain why they are or aren't what you say. In wisp exemple, you argue she isn't a weapons plateform because she had breach surge. Guess what, it's a strong debuff=damage taken multiplier, and she can both be debuffers/weapons plateform, and even a decent buffer/tank in early/mid game. Those are not exclusive ; only in your mind. And Rhino doesn't need paragrims to be a tank. Loki and Octavia can distract enemies to negate a lot of damage, that doesn't make them tanks, even if the value of damage negated can exceed any tanking at any level. All frames have their own identity that hard to describe, even if -you- try so hard to put everyone in little boxes to try to make sense of it all.

Also, I don't see how styanax's 1 doesn't impale people. It just does.

And if you have a probleme with visual design and description, well, it's your perception that's mistaken. Just you. It's not that big of a deal. You set expectations to something which isn't true and are disapointed. You did that to yourself.

[4thBro]

I mean, if we keep posting these absolute bangers, but the two stooges have me on ignore (or are pretending to), and only cherry-pick 2% of your post content, then what's the point of this thread? They're just picking their battles, and - just like in Warframe - they only pick the easy ones.

 

 

 

 

This s*** is empty AF, lol. You can post an essay, and then typo "the" as "teh," and they'll quote only that and be like, "SEE, YOU AREN'T SO RELIABLE AFTER ALL, ARE YOU?"

Just a total waste of time. They're trolling. They KNOW what they're doing. You don't do that on accident.

That s*** doesn't happen on accident.

 

What exactly are you hoping for, here? For them to answer a question directly? For them to say, "Oops, my bad, I get it now"?

Come on, now.

God himself could come down from the Heavens and explain to these guys what they're doing wrong, and they'd still evade with some more garbage. At this point, it is I that is trying to figure out how to convince YOU that this is truly, and deeply, pointless. These guys are not here for the same thing as you are. They are not here for a discussion. Do you honestly not see that? I'm ACTUALLY curious if you see that or not. @PublikDomain @Loza03

 

Legitimately. Ask yourself, what even is the SMALLEST victory you're hoping for, here? And then ask yourself... do you REALLY think that's ever going to happen with these guys???

[dwqrf]

Il y a 11 heures, 4thBro a dit :

Wait - so - now you're back to saying that the game is perfect the way it is???

Are you really challenging me, to my face, to quote you saying that you think WF is perfect the way it is???

I'm on the case, big dog. My next post will be all of your quotes in this entire thread that state that WF is just PERFECT

Still waiting... I guess I was right to say it's another empty threat. 

If I'm a big dog, then I guess you are one of those barking chihuahuas. Quite loud, but harmless. 

Edited September 2 by dwqrf