New player experience: The lich system is too poorly explained to new players who would not be ready for it yet

[kerozen666]

As of now, Starting a lich/sister is and it's consequences are too poorly explained and lead to new player activating something they are not ready to engage with. Even with the mesure to prevent accidental lich creation, it's not enough to prevent some accidents or uninformed decisions. My friend ended up just activating one by just slightly zoning out and wondering what doing the mercy did, and is now stuck with her's. She is now stuck with an enemy that will take her resources while she will have to do the very lenghty farm to acquire the requiem mods

There is a dire need to have more protection for people doing their first lich/sister and ensure they are ready. A pop up that require them to acknowledge what they are about to do, show the level of the content they are about to embark into and explain that they will need requiem mods to complete it on their very first larvling (and until they actually activate it) would be a very good thing. The lack of proper warning also cause those unprepared player to be vulnerable to predatory traders, since the grind for the first set of mods is lenghty, and the pressure for aqcuiring them will push those players toward the trade chat. 

Only having to hold to mercy really only help to not accidently activate a lich/sister accidently, and absolutly does not make a player rethink what they are doing, as the hold is too short, and doesn't inform of anything. the intro cinematic also deosn't provide any info, and the tutorial should appear right after it, not when you have acquired your first lich, barely visible in the corner. I am able to guide my friend with her lich, but for other player who are solo? it could be something that turn them away from the game

Edited August 24 by kerozen666
typos, and i know i missed some

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb kerozen666:

As of now, Starting a lich/sister is and it's consequences are too poorly explained and lead to new player activating something they are not ready to engage with. Even with the mesure to prevent accidental lich creation, it's not enough to prevent some accidents or uninformed decisions. My friend ended up just activating one by just slightly zoning out and wondering what doing the mercy did, and is now stuck with her's. She is now stuck with an enemy that will take her resources while she will have to do the very lenghty farm to acquire the requiem mods

There is a dire need to have more protection for people doing their first lich/sister and ensure they are ready. A pop up that require them to acknowledge what they are about to do, show the level of the content they are about to embark into and explain that they will need requiem mods to complete it on their very first larvling (and until they actually activate it) would be a very good thing. The lack of proper warning also cause those unprepared player to be vulnerable to predatory traders, since the grind for the first set of mods is lenghty, and the pressure for aqcuiring them will push those players toward the trade chat. 

Only having to hold to mercy really only help to not accidently activate a lich/sister accidently, and absolutly does not make a player rethink what they are doing, as the hold is too short, and doesn't inform of anything. the intro cinematic also deosn't provide any info, and the tutorial should appear right after it, not when you have acquired your first lich, barely visible in the corner. I am able to guide my friend with her lich, but for other player who are solo? it could be something that turn them away from the game

Do you mean the wiki page?

Because everything is explained there. And read the comments too.

Because it's actually not very complex. Let's compare Eve Online and Warframe. They are worlds apart.

[kerozen666]

5 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

Do you mean the wiki page?

Because everything is explained there. And read the comments too.

Because it's actually not very complex. Let's compare Eve Online and Warframe. They are worlds apart.

I invite you to read again what is written, because this is not about complexity, it's about actually knowing what you are getting into, which the games is very bad at doing.

not everyone jumps to the wiki after a cinematic

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb kerozen666:

not everyone jumps to the wiki after a cinematic

I only speak for myself and people I know. Wiki is the best source of information. Because I could NEVER rely on the information in the game.

[Pakaku]

26 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

Do you mean the wiki page?

Because everything is explained there. And read the comments too.

Because it's actually not very complex. Let's compare Eve Online and Warframe. They are worlds apart.

Sounds like you don't understand things from a new player's perspective. There is zero indicator to anyone uninformed (i.e., new players) that stabbing a thrall will start an entire length grind sequence, and the wiki is zero help when you're in the moment and you cause something to happen without you knowing what to expect. The wiki isn't even helpful when you're a new player, who doesn't even know what to be looking up before encountering it.

And obviously this part of the game is poorly designed if it requires a whole wiki to explain things, rather than giving players some kind of information, or even a small quest that explains the lich process before actually unlocking liches in the wild entirely.

Edited August 24 by Pakaku

[kerozen666]

19 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Sounds like you don't understand things from a new player's perspective. There is zero indicator to anyone uninformed (i.e., new players) that stabbing a thrall will start an entire length grind sequence, and the wiki is zero help when you're in the moment and you cause something to happen without you knowing what to expect. The wiki isn't even helpful when you're a new player, who doesn't even know what to be looking up before encountering it.

And obviously this part of the game is poorly designed if it requires a whole wiki to explain things, rather than giving players some kind of information, or even a small quest that explains the lich process before actually unlocking liches in the wild entirely.

exactly. if at least you received a full mod set with only one charge, it would not be too bad, but rightr now it's nothing and you have to grind for 4 different relics and their 8 different uncommon relic rewards

[Genitive]

They should make the existing tutorials more accessible, first and foremost. Right now, the tutorial is available only after creating a lich, way too late. And they added a message informing about liches after finishing The War Within, but I don't know what it says exactly.

16 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

if at least you received a full mod set with only one charge, it would not be too bad

I think this would work pretty well. Maybe they could also bump mastery requirement up.

[dwqrf]

il y a 24 minutes, Genitive a dit :

They should make the existing tutorials more accessible, first and foremost. Right now, the tutorial is available only after creating a lich, way too late.

Actually, the best thing I could think of would be to have the Lich button (next to nightwave, in navigation/menu) ALWAYS be active after War within, so you could click on it and have the ingame tutorial available to read there (which already exist), even (and especially for new players) if you don't have a Lich active (yet). It could also feature how to generate a larvling.

[hellodownthere]

Isn't there a tutorial about what Kuva Liches are once you have one? If you're looking for more specific things like which frames to use to get a specfic innate element (toxin, cold, heat etc.) then just look it up on the WIki.

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, hellodownthere a dit :

once you have one

That's the issue bro, don't be like this other guy.

[hellodownthere]

17 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

That's the issue bro, don't be like this other guy.

I just can't relate, is having a lich early that bad? are the resources taken that significant? Or is from a purely "well now there's this now" PoV.

[dwqrf]

il y a 3 minutes, hellodownthere a dit :

I just can't relate, is having a lich early that bad?

Yes, it a really bad -first time- experience. If you don't know about it, it eventually just falls on your face 'for no reasons'. You just went a bit more stabby stabby than usual and here goes some annoying boss you can't kill and can't even understand what or how. Not good.

[kerozen666]

2 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Yes, it a really bad -first time- experience. If you don't know about it, it eventually just falls on your face 'for no reasons'. You just went a bit more stabby stabby than usual and here goes some annoying boss you can't kill and can't even understand what or how. Not good.

don't forget that it's a boss that, if not handled well enough, wll require some beefed up equipment to vanquish. like, rank 5 liches take some sp ready gear, which you more then likwly don't have after you finish war witthin

[Liberator_Numen]

2 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

I only speak for myself and people I know. Wiki is the best source of information. Because I could NEVER rely on the information in the game.

Which is precisely the problem(s) we seek to rectify. If your main source of useful information isn't available in-game, then that's just bad game design. YouTubers & wiki articles shouldn't have to do a game developer's job.

[Zakkhar]

2 hours ago, Pakaku said:

There is zero indicator to anyone uninformed (i.e., new players) that stabbing a thrall will start an entire length grind sequence,

Grind sequence in grind shooter? No way... You can safely igore the Lich until you are ready.

49 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Yes, it a really bad -first time- experience. If you don't know about it, it eventually just falls on your face 'for no reasons'. You just went a bit more stabby stabby than usual and here goes some annoying boss you can't kill and can't even understand what or how. Not good.

If only google existed.

Edited August 24 by Zakkhar

[Zakkhar]

47 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

don't forget that it's a boss that, if not handled well enough, wll require some beefed up equipment to vanquish. like, rank 5 liches take some sp ready gear, which you more then likwly don't have after you finish war witthin

So just wait till you get the better gear, eventually.

[Zakkhar]

50 minutes ago, Liberator_Numen said:

If your main source of useful information isn't available in-game, then that's just bad game design.

Not really. There is plenty of information already that 90% of players simply skip/ignore. It is just a matter of intent. eg. Dark Souls hardly tells you anything about the game story, boosses etc. You have to dig for the information. Do you think the game would be the same if the exposition was pouring at every second? What I always liked about WF is lack of hand-holding. Guess modern gamers dislilke that. But there are plety different games that provide that hand holding. We do not have to all play WF.

Edited August 24 by Zakkhar

[Liberator_Numen]

3 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Not really. There is plenty of information already that 90% of players simply skip/ignore. It is just a matter of intent. eg. Dark Souls hardly tells you anything about the game story, boosses etc. You have to dig for the information. Do you think the game would be the same if the exposition was pouring at every second? What I always liked about WF is lack of hand-holding. Guess modern gamers dislilke that. But there are plety different games that provide that hand holding. We do not have to all play WF.

Intentional or not, tutorials for new mechanics should always be available & accessible at any given moment. Do you think someone encountering a Lich for the first time understands all of the nitty-gritty? I had to intentionally search online where to find some random emote in Bonny village in order to access the Shaman village. I had already swept through the nearby Gaol & made my way to Manus Metyr without knowing that emote existed. Souls games reward in-depth exploration of every nook & cranny, but not every game should emulate their approach. A live-service game like Warframe can easily chew through countless newbies on account of a blatant lack of explanation. That doesn't build the community as well as one might think, and comradery can only take people so far. This isn't some minor issue either, many mechanics haven't been given a proper explanation throughout the years. A Lich/Sister-based tutorial isn't akin to pulling out your teeth.

[Drasiel]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Liches should have a micro quest that just guides you through your first lich. They've done this before when more involved game systems have been added like spy missions and if the content was walled behind a quest then there would be no more accidental liches without understanding what it takes to complete them.

[kerozen666]

2 minutes ago, Liberator_Numen said:

Intentional or not, tutorials for new mechanics should always be available & accessible at any given moment. Do you think someone encountering a Lich for the first time understands all of the nitty-gritty? I had to intentionally search online where to find some random emote in Bonny village in order to access the Shaman village. I had already swept through the nearby Gaol & made my way to Manus Metyr without knowing that emote existed. Souls games reward in-depth exploration of every nook & cranny, but not every game should emulate their approach. A live-service game like Warframe can easily chew through countless newbies on account of a blatant lack of explanation. That doesn't build the community as well as one might think, and comradery can only take people so far. This isn't some minor issue either, many mechanics haven't been given a proper explanation throughout the years. A Lich/Sister-based tutorial isn't akin to pulling out your teeth.

don'T waste your time, the second you see someone pull out the "well dark soul did it" you know it's going to be impossible to reason with them. they treat that game like it's somehow the game to dominate all game and can't belive some stuff in it is bad, even the stuff that would get any other game flammed

[kerozen666]

5 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Liches should have a micro quest that just guides you through your first lich. They've done this before when more involved game systems have been added like spy missions and if the content was walled behind a quest then there would be no more accidental liches without understanding what it takes to complete them.

the microquest would be neat. The issue is that it would take a lot of dev time while they are already quite busy with creating newwer content. It could be possible, but i don't expect it. that's the reason why i say there should be a big pop up that you have to read before starting your very first lich. it's doable in very little time and can be grafter to any update.

i just want people to play the game, and that kind of stuff can makes someone quit

[Drasiel]

3 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

the microquest would be neat. The issue is that it would take a lot of dev time while they are already quite busy with creating newwer content. It could be possible, but i don't expect it. that's the reason why i say there should be a big pop up that you have to read before starting your very first lich. it's doable in very little time and can be grafter to any update.

i just want people to play the game, and that kind of stuff can makes someone quit

Aside from voice overs and QA testing I don't think it would actually take that much time, because all the components already exist and are functional. The Character design, modeling, AI, and animations all already exist, as well as the mission flow. You'd essentially take exactly what you already do with a lich and add VO explaining the basic steps to create one, show you where to get requiem mods, how to solve the lich, and then just take you through the lich and get you your first kuva weapon. It doesn't have to add much to what is already in game.

[hellodownthere]

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

Yes, it a really bad -first time- experience. If you don't know about it, it eventually just falls on your face 'for no reasons'. You just went a bit more stabby stabby than usual and here goes some annoying boss you can't kill and can't even understand what or how. Not good.

Yeah you might not be able to kill the Lich at first but the Lich doesn't go anywhere and personally the tax from doing missions on the controlled planet isn't so great that it's a burden. You kill the Kuva Larvling, click the new thing that appears on your UI, click tutorial and now you understand how to kill the new enemy you just encountered.

I just don't understand how one can get stuck not knowing how to kill it when there's a tutorial button plain as day explaining how in a step by step fashion.

 

Not only that but it doesn't bother you so long as you don't bother it, I had my first Lich for like 6 months and it never bothered me one bit because I had a long hiatus, my weapons weren't strong enough to kill it so I just stopped doing the Lich missions until I had enough firepower to take him down. 

 

I guess I just can't relate at all to it, I understand knowing beforehand would be nice but you can just ignore it forever pretty much.

[Zakkhar]

15 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

the microquest would be neat.

It wouldnt do anything. Modern playerrs will just skip everything skippable, ignore every voice over and information provided as shown below:

 

[Zakkhar]

2 minutes ago, hellodownthere said:

I just don't understand how one can get stuck not knowing how to kill it when there's a tutorial button plain as day explaining how in a step by step fashion.

Well, in order to click that tutorial button you need a bit of curiousity, awareness or/and IQ above 70. Look how many people fail to verify their waframe.market accounts.