New augment mod "Burning Hate" is terrible.

[Traumtulpe]

20 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Because not everybody is a meta slave.

If you are holding the Hate, yes you are. And you cannot use Burning Hate without Hate. Putting random mods on the Hate is not a virtue, no matter how much you'd like it to be so. And even if you did put random mods on the Hate, chances are you'd still oneshot anything at base Steel Path.

[dwqrf]

il y a 45 minutes, Traumtulpe a dit :

If you are holding the Hate, yes you are. And you cannot use Burning Hate without Hate. Putting random mods on the Hate is not a virtue, no matter how much you'd like it to be so. And even if you did put random mods on the Hate, chances are you'd still oneshot anything at base Steel Path.

[vixenpixel]

Somebody probably already mentioned this but hate incarnon does heat dmg on the thrown scythes so you don't need to mod heat. 

[L3512]

6 hours ago, Karyst said:

Such as hp% jat kittag

Yeah, like I'm not against new options, even more niche ones but Burning Hate looks to have very narrow use case. Priming with an AOE secondary is fine but melee priming with a scythe sounds like ass, let alone double priming with secondary and melee so that you can DPS with a primary or ability.

[Traumtulpe]

10 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

Somebody probably already mentioned this but hate incarnon does heat dmg on the thrown scythes so you don't need to mod heat. 

That's not quite right. If you use a heavy attack build, you might not be slotting Weeping Wounds. So low chance to get a Heat proc.

If you use Melee Influence, you're not proccing Heat with the Hate either. And Melee Influence is really good.

[vixenpixel]

5 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

That's not quite right.

It was a 100% factually correct statement. 

Quote

If you use a heavy attack build, you might not be slotting Weeping Wounds. So low chance to get a Heat proc.

If you use Melee Influence, you're not proccing Heat with the Hate either. And Melee Influence is really good.

Obviously if you selectively mod the heat away, that's your own problem to deal with. Melee influence is really good? That has the same relevance as me saying "Dual ichor is really good."

If you are activating that augment mod by incarnon mode heat throwing scythes then you would put weeping wounds on, something you can easily do. You can reliably do heat procs and slash procs with a simple build like that. Obv for melee influence, use something else like dual ichor since it's entirely broken op.

On a heavy attack build specifically? What are you using, crescendo? If you aren't building combo, then weeping wounds would waste a modslot. It's a subpar build. With tennokai you can make it a heavy attack hybrid build, which in terms of dps would be superior and would make good use of weeping wounds. Are you saying that you want to mod electricity on it for melee influence in spite of dual ichor being superior to the hate? Why? Do you put melee influence on all your melee weapons? It can still be done but you would need heat on your riven to make something like blast or gas I assume. But since you aren't using the augment in favor of just another melee influence build, you can safely fit everything.

We're clearly not even discussing the augment right now, but I can see the augment being quite interesting to play around with as it seems to boost damage procced by other weapons. This has interesting implications though I don't know how useful it's going to be in terms of 'time spent activating'. 

Edited September 7 by vixenpixel

[vixenpixel]

46 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

We're clearly not even discussing the augment right now, but I can see the augment being quite interesting to play around with as it seems to boost damage procced by other weapons. This has interesting implications though I don't know how useful it's going to be in terms of 'time spent activating'. 

Just because I don't want to contaminate my previous post, I will just move ahead to discuss the augment itself. Honestly have no clue if this is going to be good or just not worth it... Assuming it will work like that, will it be worth boosting damage done with other weapon/abilities? Maybe Citrine?

It's a bit disappointing that it's not at least for all scythes. On the topic of citrine, her weapon is the corufell which fires a heat explosive on heavy attack. That would be so awesome with this augment.

Another good one would be Harmony. I could even see it working on Anku with it's guaranteed slash procs. But it's Hate only. :(

Edited September 7 by vixenpixel

[Traumtulpe]

Well I don't have anything else to add. I guess we'll just have to watch whether or not modding your Hate so it doesn't kill anything (a -100% damage riven might be needed!) so you can then *also* shoot every single enemy to enjoy your 120% status damage buff will become the meta or not!

A shame that there is no possible way to tell since we can't use the mod yet, it's not like Humans could possibly predict the impact of such a complicated thing as "enemy takes 120% more damage from status effects".

I'm sure we'll all be so shocked when the mod becomes available and nobody cares much for it. When modding your Hate to proc Heat *doesn't* become the meta. When people aren't paying good plat to buy that augment mod.

We will not have been able to forsee it in the slightest!

[vixenpixel]

13 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Well I don't have anything else to add. I guess we'll just have to watch whether or not modding your Hate so it doesn't kill anything (a -100% damage riven might be needed!) so you can then *also* shoot every single enemy to enjoy your 120% status damage buff will become the meta or not!

A shame that there is no possible way to tell since we can't use the mod yet, it's not like Humans could possibly predict the impact of such a complicated thing as "enemy takes 120% more damage from status effects".

I'm sure we'll all be so shocked when the mod becomes available and nobody cares much for it. When modding your Hate to proc Heat *doesn't* become the meta. When people aren't paying good plat to buy that augment mod.

We will not have been able to forsee it in the slightest!

I usually enjoy sarcasm implied. Less cringe, you know?

[Drachnyn]

Even if you dont insta kill everything with Hate, it's still going to be the highest source status damage output in your loadout. What other frame or gun can put higher damaging status procs on a single target?

[Traumtulpe]

26 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

I usually enjoy sarcasm implied.

What sarcasm?

[vixenpixel]

31 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

What sarcasm?

lol my bad then. That looked very much like sarcasm to me. 

[Zaghyr]

On 2024-09-06 at 4:04 PM, Karyst said:

I like how he said that that's what hate does unbuffed while having two rows of buffs 

And most likely has armor stripped and primed as well.

[Traumtulpe]

23 hours ago, Zaghyr said:

And most likely has armor stripped and primed as well.

Yes indeed. So what? Mod effects, armor strip, and using a primer are not buffs. Buffs are abilities that apply a, well, buff to you. Like Roar.

[Karyst]

19 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Yes indeed. So what? Mod effects, armor strip, and using a primer are not buffs. Buffs are abilities that apply a, well, buff to you. Like Roar.

You have buffs in your picture clearly visible, hello?

[Traumtulpe]

4 hours ago, Karyst said:

You have buffs in your picture clearly visible, hello?

The warframe in use literally has no (damage) buffs in it's kit. Hello.

Edited September 10 by Traumtulpe

[Agall]

On 2024-09-07 at 10:23 AM, Traumtulpe said:

Well I don't have anything else to add. I guess we'll just have to watch whether or not modding your Hate so it doesn't kill anything (a -100% damage riven might be needed!) so you can then *also* shoot every single enemy to enjoy your 120% status damage buff will become the meta or not!

A shame that there is no possible way to tell since we can't use the mod yet, it's not like Humans could possibly predict the impact of such a complicated thing as "enemy takes 120% more damage from status effects".

I'm sure we'll all be so shocked when the mod becomes available and nobody cares much for it. When modding your Hate to proc Heat *doesn't* become the meta. When people aren't paying good plat to buy that augment mod.

We will not have been able to forsee it in the slightest!

I've kept up with Nightwave fully to get this mod ASAP this weekend. There's a variation of my build where it might be at least useful, but I still think requiring +heat% to make it comparably capable to even the Dread augment.

Instead of my MOA with cold+corrosive+rad I've ran since WitW, I've swapped to my Wyrm Prime with [Fired Up] to use the OG heat+viral+radation setup. The goal being that I use my sentinel (which have far better uptime than MOAs with their weapon) to prime the enemies with heat. I also swapped my Hate Incarnon [Melee Influence] setup from viral+electric to blast+electric, with [Melee Elementalist] as a placeholder for the moment.

Both of these mods though are kind of strange. The Dread doesn't have innate punch-through, which would be required to proc its effect. That either involves modding punch through or using the Incarnon form. Hate runs into the same problem, to proc its effect, you're either building around it, hoping someone else has heat, modding heat onto it, or using the Incarnon form's special projectiles (without any base elements on the weapon other than heat).

TBH, the Dread augment should have punch through and the Hate augment should have +heat%, since neither have the innate stats necessary to proc the effect without relying on the Incarnon adapter, which not every player will have.

[Traumtulpe]

I've actually switched to a build using Melee Elementalist in the flex slot, and there is no way I'll trade that 60% heavy windup speed for 30% status damage. The faster heavy attacks make a huge difference, even on Tennokai procs.

Also there's no way I'm hitting stuff with the Hate to increase outside proc damage, that's like hitting yourself with a baseball bat so the mosquito bite stops hurting.

Burning Hate is simply just worse than generic alternatives.

[Traumtulpe]

And calling it 30% status damage is even generous, in real terms it's less than 16%: 220% to 190% total.

[Agall]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

I've actually switched to a build using Melee Elementalist in the flex slot, and there is no way I'll trade that 60% heavy windup speed for 30% status damage. The faster heavy attacks make a huge difference, even on Tennokai procs.

Also there's no way I'm hitting stuff with the Hate to increase outside proc damage, that's like hitting yourself with a baseball bat so the mosquito bite stops hurting.

Burning Hate is simply just worse than generic alternatives.

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

And calling it 30% status damage is even generous, in real terms it's less than 16%: 220% to 190% total.

I'll have to test this configuration once I get it Sunday and report back. For me, wind up doesn't matter since Tennokai is extremely fast and I don't heavy attack outside of it. Wind up speed in some of my builds can be bad if I accidentally heavy attack, since I can usually notice it before it finishes and break it with a roll.

The projectiles can do significant damage with [Furious Javelin], it 1 shots in SP especially in a group with blast modded. Its significant enough to be a viable strategy for quite a while when going for level cap, but I'll have to reevaluate that Sunday or Monday.

 

I'm still going to hold the opinion I stated here regarding both augments:

3 hours ago, Agall said:

TBH, the Dread augment should have punch through and the Hate augment should have +heat%, since neither have the innate stats necessary to proc the effect without relying on the Incarnon adapter, which not every player will have.

I think this is the most reasonable take regarding the issues with the augments. They're either specifically designed for the Incarnon form, or are lacking additional stats to prevent them from requiring end-game level unlocks to function. Even with Dread, you'd likely either need [Primed Shred], Qorvex, or Incarnon to reliably proc its stealth effect.

I have a feeling people having stopped and thought about the limitations on the Dread augment too. Its going to run into almost the same problem.

I'd like to see +3 punch through on the Dread augment and +120% heat damage on the Hate augment. I think it would fundamentally change the whole discourse on these augments. The Dread augment having punch through wouldn't require you to run [Primed Shred] either to make its Incarnon form useful, since I remember it running into the same issue as Paris Prime Incarnon where having no additional punch through doesn't reliably proc its infinite punch through if you're having to go through a shield or barrier.

[Agall]

So far in my testing, its at least not inhibitory to gameplay, the conditional effect is overall in most cases a reduction in damage, but does provide some utility to targets with damage attenuation, kind of. It seems to be at least on par with [Melee Elementalist] in my absolutely sweaty S-tier Excalibur build, but that mod was probably not doing much already anyways (everything usually dies before status damage can be applied, but it at least buffs my Verglas Prime and the blast procs on Hate).

If DE comes out and says, "both the Hate and Dread riven are designed around the Incarnon forms", then I'll rest and accept that they're fine as they are. If they're not explicitly designed for the Incarnon forms, then they need to buff them.

Dread Augment needs +punch through to function properly outside of Incarnon outside of niche scenarios with closely stacked enemies with its innate 2.5 punch through. Otherwise, you're relying on players having [Primed Shred], which they probably don't.

Hate augment needs either +Critical Damage% or +heat%, otherwise its generally a downgrade. If it had +heat%, I could free up a slot from [Volcanic Edge] and sacrifice a bit of status chance to run [Organ Shatter]. This mod should AT LEAST be an upgrade over [Volvanic Edge] or [Organ Shatter].

[Traumtulpe]

So I also got the mod and used it. I didn't care to do any thorough testing, but it appears to indeed increase the damage - given that you have a mod on your Hate that you don't need, which for me is only the case on Volt (not needing Electricity damage nor attack speed).

My three points still hold:

1) You need to use a primer to get Heat onto the enemy. Getting the needed Heat proc via the Hate is *always* worse than simply not using the mod altogether. And if you prime enemies you're going to oneshot anything with the Hate anyways, even if you left that mod slot empty.

2) Hitting things with the Hate to increase outside proc damage is, in simple terms, doing it wrong. Always. Because the Hate will always kill things better then outside procs to begin with, if you already hit the target with it anyways.

3) The mod is a very simple stat boost, outclassed by basic (unconditional) mods even disregarding that it is conditional. It doesn't even have any visuals at all. How is this an augment??? If it was available on all weapons it still wouldn't be a particularly popular mod. Aren't augments supposed to somehow change things? Like, in functionality, visuals, or in changing your playstyle? It does nothing of the sort, *at all*.

[Traumtulpe]

Oh wow, the mod is *even worse* than I had assumed. Like I said I didn't bother to do any detailed testing, but someone else did:

So the mod doesn't actually apply a damage vulnerability onto the target (because this would work retroactively on DoT's already on the target), but rather a debuff that exclusively buffs *future* procs.

Meaning if you wanted to buff the heavy attack's slash proc, you'd have to first prime the target with Heat, then hit it with the Hate just to apply the debuff, and then you can finally heavy attack. Except of course a primed enemy will be oneshot by the direct damage, so the mod will have no effect either way.

This also means, that if you were to make a terrible build that procs Heat with the Hate itself, only every second proc would be buffed, effectively reducing the damage buff to a mere 60%. That's hilariously bad.

No seriously, this mod is so bad it almost loops around and becomes funny. It should have been a free gift to all players on April first IMO.

Edited Monday at 09:03 PM by Traumtulpe

[Waeleto]

Just tried it, It's a waste of a mod slot

[Agall]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Oh wow, the mod is *even worse* than I had assumed. Like I said I didn't bother to do any detailed testing, but someone else did:

So the mod doesn't actually apply a damage vulnerability onto the target (because this would work retroactively on DoT's already on the target), but rather a debuff that exclusively buffs *future* procs.

Meaning if you wanted to buff the heavy attack's slash proc, you'd have to first prime the target with Heat, then hit it with the Hate just to apply the debuff, and then you can finally heavy attack. Except of course a primed enemy will be oneshot by the direct damage, so the mod will have no effect either way.

This also means, that if you were to make a terrible build that procs Heat with the Hate itself, only every second proc would be buffed, effectively reducing the damage buff to a mere 60%. That's hilariously bad.

No seriously, this mod is so bad it almost loops around and becomes funny. It should have been a free gift to all players on April first IMO.

I'll watch the video in about an hour, at least if Gaz was able to confirm it does something, its useful for my build, even if its not retroactive. If the duration is permanent too, I'll keep it on my setup.

Hate Incarnon is my main weapon for my build right now, I pre-gamed it over a week ago too.

Just now, Waeleto said:

Just tried it, It's a waste of a mod slot

My suggestion from the beginning is to at least add +heat%, a decent amount, like +120%. It'll then at least be worth it over the 60%/60% mod or 90% mod, since we dont have a primed heat mod. It'll allow the non-Incarnon form to natively proc the effect, even if it isn't super useful.