Semi Auto Accesibility Feature Feedback

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

So I used this new feature for the first time after seeing someone with a full-auto latron.
I thought that person had modded it for fire rate, and this was just a different kind of build.
I was wrong.

This feature seems kind of absurd on most Semi-Auto Weapons. Why? Because it doesn't simulate semi-auto fire, it turns it fully auto.

I thought this feature was made to bypass spamming the trigger for semi weapons for people who just don't wanna do that, or can't due to hand issues.

It does not do that, it simply turns it fully automatic. The effectiveness of this begs the question, why would you ever use Semi over this Toggle Full Auto?

Simply put, the fire rate you get on these weapons is beyond what is reproduceable by trigger fingers. 

I think this is significant enough to be a balance issue. Semi-Auto weapons are meant to have higher base damage to reward pulling the trigger less often and more aiming.
Full Auto weapons are meant to have more focus on sustained damage over time with less per shot damage. 
This feature blurs the line completely. Now, the best full auto weapons are semi autos that you toggle this setting for.

To put it simply, I think this feature needs to be nerfed. Accesibility should be the focus here, not indirectly buffing the weapon.
Have the Accesibility feature scale like this:

• Up to 2.5 fire rate, no change.
• From 2.5 to 3, -10% fire rate while enabled.
• From 3 to 3.5, -15% fire rate while enabled.
• From 3.5 to 4, -20% fire rate while enabled.
• From 4 to 4.5, -25 fire rate while enabled.
• Once your modded value of fire rate is above a certain point, example 5+, or +100% above the weapons base fire speed, then this feature turns the weapon fully auto, and does not impede fire rate.

The numbers mentioned above should probably be replaced with a formula, but this is kind where I think the effectiveness should be. 

When balancing for this feature consider a few things.

• Does the Accesibility feature create an unrealistic standard for consistent human input.
• Does this change how the weapon is built?
• At what point do we stop simulating actual human input, and reward unique building.
  • I think if people mod a Semi Weapon for fire rate, and wanna make a machine gun. They should be allowed to. I believe there should be a line between these two build approaches.

Consider this:

My Latron build has been the same for years, relatively unchanged over time. The changes I've done are: Removed Hammer shot for Double Tap, replaced Point strike with critical delay, and replaced serration for semi-shot cannonade. 

Now think of this, if I enable the full auto feature, why is this still allowed to use Semi Shot Cannonade, and why am I not punished for running negative fire rate from critical delay.

Consider this:

The Argonak has 2 fire modes one is semi auto and focused on status, the full auto is focused on critical chance and status. Now with this feature, you can turn the Semi Argonak into the full auto mode, lose ONLY 1.66 shots per second, and gain 18% CC, 0.8 CD, and lose 8% status chance. The trade off is clear there is 0 point to the auto mode. 

Please note, I am against removing this feature entirely. It is an overdue Accesibility feature, and allows for build creativity. However deleting the Semi Auto Weapon type, and making an unrealistic standard for human input to compete with, doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

[Quest]

When this feature was added there was also a set of mods added that increases damage and punch through but locks the fire rate to semi auto.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Semi-Rifle_Cannonade

Accessibility > balance. Having to click the button a hundred times a row is very annoying. Holding it down is nice.

As Pablo said on a devstream before this was added, doing this was already possible by using macros or binding the fire button to your scroll wheel.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

1 minute ago, Quest said:

When this feature was added there was also a set of mods added that increases damage and punch through but locks the fire rate to semi auto.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Semi-Rifle_Cannonade

Accessibility > balance. Having to click the button a hundred times a row is very annoying. Holding it down is nice.

As Pablo said on a devstream before this was added, doing this was already possible by using macros or binding the fire button to your scroll wheel.

I know, I mention that mod in the post. I suggest reading it.
I don't have any issue with the feature. My point is that it doesn't simulate semi auto fire, it turns the weapon fully auto.
This gives a great increase in DPS without any extra input.

I also mention that I am not against turning semi weapons into machine guns, but it needs to actually be built that way, and not just be because an option was toggled.

[Quest]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

I know, I mention that mod in the post. I suggest reading it.
I don't have any issue with the feature. My point is that it doesn't simulate semi auto fire, it turns the weapon fully auto.
This gives a great increase in DPS without any extra input.

I also mention that I am not against turning semi weapons into machine guns, but it needs to actually be built that way, and not just be because an option was toggled.

The difference in DPS is accounted for by the new mods, which themselves make each projectile more damaging, leaving you with two options: holding the button and firing quickly, or tapping the button and doing more damage with each shot.

The proposed scaling would just revert us to the old status quo where you would either do the scroll wheel thing or be penalized for not clicking fast enough.

Therefore, regardless of whether or not this setting was added, or whether it was nerfed, people would still be able to turn semi auto guns into fully automatic guns without building specifically for it.

All that has changed as of Jade Shadows is that DE gave a convenient and officially allowed way to do it via the setting, which makes sense if people were just going to do it anyway.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

3 minutes ago, Quest said:

The difference in DPS is accounted for by the new mods, which themselves make each projectile more damaging, leaving you with two options: holding the button and firing quickly, or tapping the button and doing more damage with each shot.

The proposed scaling would just revert us to the old status quo where you would either do the scroll wheel thing or be penalized for not clicking fast enough.

Therefore, regardless of whether or not this setting was added, or whether it was nerfed, people would still be able to turn semi auto guns into fully automatic guns without building specifically for it.

All that has changed as of Jade Shadows is that DE gave a convenient and officially allowed way to do it via the setting, which makes sense if people were just going to do it anyway.

I mentioned in the post that modding for enough fire rate would bypass the semi auto limit, and simply make the weapon fully auto. Hence why I said you need to actually build it as a machine gun, and not just as a semi.

The Semi Mods, work on the semi automatic weapons regardless whether or not you make it full auto or not, which most of the time means it increases the fire rate from what critical delay would do to it.
I assume you mean this mod is meant to not increase the strength of this feature with fire rate increases, but here's the thing. Wisp buff exists, Harrow exists. And it doesn't change the fact that with the same build, having this toggle on is a straight DPS increase. 

If they wanted to actually make Semi Auto weapons better than Semi Toggle Weapons, they would have to give an increase in DPS the less often you shoot. that is a way to tackle it, but would lead to even more DPS. 

[KitMeHarder]

43 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

Does the Accesibility feature create an unrealistic standard for consistent human input.

The average clicks per second is around 6.51, and you're suggesting to start adding nerfs at 2.5? And that's just the average, people can get much higher with the record being 14.1.

The feature already has a cap of 10 fire rate and you can't increase it past that, so I feel that's a fine compromise. Especially seeing are we're role playing as bio-metal super soldiers, with frames like Volt or Gauss probably canonically getting hundreds of clicks per second, if not more.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

2 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

The average clicks per second is around 6.51, and you're suggesting to start adding nerfs at 2.5? And that's just the average, people can get much higher with the record being 14.1.

The feature already has a cap of 10 fire rate and you can't increase it past that, so I feel that's a fine compromise. Especially seeing are we're role playing as bio-metal super soldiers, with frames like Volt or Gauss probably canonically getting hundreds of clicks per second, if not more.

I use controller, and just don't see it as normal or enjoyable to be doing it that much. Pulling the trigger 5 times in a second is definitely more work than holding it down.

That is also a fair assessment though. I'm curious if this is just how fast Mouse players can shoot, or if this was them specifically trying to shoot as fast as possible.

I also don't see how lore comes into a conversation about these weapons. I guess you are implying that these frames could pull the trigger faster and that would directly increase the fire rate. The action of the weapon is what I believe to be limiting these weapons. 
When you buff FR on full auto weapons you are increasing the action speed, not the input speed.

[L3512]

Console players need to understand that PC players solved the need to spam fire like twenty years ago, first with remapping and then with macros.

Semi-auto in a horde shooter just promotes RSIs for no valid reason at all.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

To put it simply, I think this feature needs to be nerfed.

Practically speaking, if players get penalized for using the continuous fire feature, they're being incentivized to collect RSIs or punished for looking after their health.  And those who can just use a third party tool and ignore the penalty will just go on as normal.

This means that if--and I do mean if--there is a widespread pattern of semi-auto damage weapons having too much damage output, the basic problem is weapon damage tuning.    Not whether people are holding down a button, tapping it at hypersonic speeds with their adolescent monkey fingers, using a scroll wheel, or ******* telekinesis.   Adjust the damage and/or RoF, rather than messing with people who prefer to use triggers differently than you'd like them to.

The one thing you said that I basically agree with is that Cannonade mods shouldn't disable RoF penalties.

[KitMeHarder]

19 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

I guess you are implying that these frames could pull the trigger faster and that would directly increase the fire rate. The action of the weapon is what I believe to be limiting these weapons.

Well the reason is two-fold.

1. In the event your comeback was that it's much harder to pull a real gun trigger than it is to click a mouse button.
2. And the fact we have space-magic cards that increase our gun's fire rate or even how fast we can swing a stick (among other things). As well as a 3D printer that can literally make 1:1 living copies of once human super soldiers as long as we have the right files. So the "action of the weapon" being a limiting factor makes no sense with the technology we have access to, as changing/upgrading a gun's receiver would be child's play. 

30 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

I'm curious if this is just how fast Mouse players can shoot, or if this was them specifically trying to shoot as fast as possible.

Ignoring recoil control, aren't these the same thing?

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

7 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Practically speaking, if players get penalized for using the continuous fire feature, they're being incentivized to collect RSIs or punished for looking after their health.  And those who can just use a third party tool and ignore the penalty will just go on as normal.

This means that if--and I do mean if--there is a widespread pattern of semi-auto damage weapons having too much damage output, the basic problem is weapon damage tuning.    Not whether people are holding down a button, tapping it at hypersonic speeds with their adolescent monkey fingers, using a scroll wheel, or ******* telekinesis.   Adjust the damage and/or RoF, rather than messing with people who prefer to use triggers differently than you'd like them to.

The one thing you said that I basically agree with is that Cannonade mods shouldn't disable RoF penalties.

I had to look up RSIs, but yeah good point.

I just don't see my gameplay with my trigger finger competiting with the toggle switch on basically anything faster than 4 fire rate.
This to me was a matter of just putting real human interaction on the same level as automation.
Although more so what I'm getting now is I just shoot slow. 

Semi-Auto weapons have always been my favorite in warframe, I like taking the time to aim, get headshots, etc. I used to have a notable trigger finger too, but that just kinda went out the window when the gun goes Brrrrrrrrrrrrt. 

I also didn't think about systematic differences between Mouse and controller.

Just now, KitMeHarder said:

Well the reason is two-fold.

1. In the event your comeback was that it's much harder to pull a real gun trigger than it is to click a mouse button.
2. And the fact we have space-magic cards that increase our gun's fire rate or even how fast we can swing a stick (among other things). As well as a 3D printer that can literally make 1:1 living copies of once human super soldiers as long as we have the right files. So the "action of the weapon" being a limiting factor makes no sense with the technology we have access to, as changing/upgrading a gun's receiver would be child's play. 

Ignoring recoil control, aren't these the same thing?

Recoil control is everything, if you aren't hitting, why shoot?

[Binket_]

I've always thought that Fire Rate (and Melee Speed by proxy) should've had a hard-cap.
Especially because the lack of one makes "Raw DPS" by emptying all of your Magazine the norm.
Braindead, generic, fit for every bumbledork that doesn't care for the game and just wants the next big shiny.

While it could be bypassed for Full-Auto weapons, Semi-Auto was for precise shots that do FAR more damage.
... in concept though. In practice, Semi-Auto are but another blunder.
If more speed means more damage with little penalty, people are going to abuse it.

I mostly blame DE's lack of ingenuity to use their own mechanics fully.
Semi-Auto tends to work better if you need to player to aim better.
For instance, Snipers due to their combo-system giving a good total-damage multiplier.
If you miss with a Sniper, that combo count goes down. You need to aim your shots as a result.

DE can make some great gimmicks for some weapons... but a lot of them turn out very uninspired.
Just look at how many beam-chains we have now for "uninspired".
Especially that three of them are from the same kind of source.
Pair this mundanity with their extreme volatile short-sighted update patterns? 
You get a recipe for situations like this undermining the whole point of the game.

 

I don't blame people for wanting a Semi-Auto Accessibility Feature.
But I do LOATHE how utterly... "caveman" it is in nature. Forgetting everything about why it was there to begin with.
By DE making all Semi-Autos into what-is-effectively Full-Auto, they ruin the possibility of making more meaningful mechanics out of them.

So yeah, I fully agree with the author of the post here.
Unfortunately, the damage is done-- so the best option we got is the same of which author has mentioned.
Make a penalty of "diminishing returns" for too much Fire Rate.
^{It won't entirely curb the issue, macros and all... but I'd rather a functional game than a braindead one, y'know?}

 

Also, partially related tangent?
Duplex trigger is stupid. It lacks a good gimmick, making it a discount burst-fire.
You can make the first shot have one type of effect and the second have a different effect.

For example: First shot lays a marker down, second creates a laser between the two.
Laser causes all enemies caught in it to fry in an powerful AoE boom!

If DE makes mechanics like that hypothetical on generic full-auto garbage? It doesn't work as well.

[Tiltskillet]

12 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

I've always thought that Fire Rate (and Melee Speed by proxy) should've had a hard-cap.

There is one on semi-auto of 10 aps.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

13 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Just look at how many beam-chains we have now for "uninspired".

I don't blame people for wanting a Semi-Auto Accessibility Feature.
But I do LOATHE how utterly... "caveman" it is in nature. Forgetting everything about why it was there to begin with.
By DE making all Semi-Autos into what-is-effectively Full-Auto, they ruin the possibility of making more meaningful mechanics out of them.

So yeah, I fully agree with the author of the post here.
Unfortunately, the damage is done-- so the best option we got is the same of which author has mentioned.
Make a penalty of "diminishing returns" for too much Fire Rate.
^{It won't entirely curb the issue, macros and all... but I'd rather a functional game than a braindead one, y'know?}

Pretty much one of my points, it kills the weapon class for me, if it is functionally the same as full auto.
If you can't aim or need to shoot more bullets, you should switch weapons, not flick the brrr switch. 

Also fully agree on the beam weapon thing. Base nukor is one of the most interesting mechanics in the game, Kuva is just bland.
They should've made the parts inflate and then explode for AOE.

[Pakaku]

I’m not sure how my decision to use the feature for comfort reasons is a problem for you, especially when weapons like the Latron are already too spammy for a semi-auto. It really should have just been an auto from the start, and the accessibility option is a breath of fresh air

My go-to semi-auto rifle for years was the (prisma) Grinlok. That’s a rifle with a real noticeable delay between shots, and is much closer to my idea of a semi-auto than the Latron ever was. Even then, I don’t need to have the auto-fire option disabled to keep making precision shots.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

5 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

I’m not sure how my decision to use the feature for comfort reasons is a problem for you, especially when weapons like the Latron are already too spammy for a semi-auto. It really should have just been an auto from the start, and the accessibility option is a breath of fresh air

My go-to semi-auto rifle for years was the (prisma) Grinlok. That’s a rifle with a real noticeable delay between shots, and is much closer to my idea of a semi-auto than the Latron ever was. Even then, I don’t need to have the auto-fire option disabled to keep making precision shots.

the issue isn't noticeable on the grinlok.

I just don't see a real player as keeping up with the automation from the toggle. 

[Pakaku]

Just now, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

the issue isn't noticeable on the grinlok.

I just don't see a real player as keeping up with the automation from the toggle. 

Your example may be an exaggeration, but there still really is no way to know what a player is actually physically capable of, so I don’t really see what’s wrong with a straightforward unassuming toggle.

If a weapon like the Latron is intended to be aimed and fired in a slower deliberate manner, then the weapon needs to be rebalanced to favour damage over fire rate. And if you remember how awfully high weapons like the Lato used to be… yeah, maybe this is a good opportunity for the devs to give everything a rebalance so we can avoid those weird compromises of “high fire rate but uncomfortable to keep clicking that fast”

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

6 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Your example may be an exaggeration, but there still really is no way to know what a player is actually physically capable of, so I don’t really see what’s wrong with a straightforward unassuming toggle.

If a weapon like the Latron is intended to be aimed and fired in a slower deliberate manner, then the weapon needs to be rebalanced to favour damage over fire rate. And if you remember how awfully high weapons like the Lato used to be… yeah, maybe this is a good opportunity for the devs to give everything a rebalance so we can avoid those weird compromises of “high fire rate but uncomfortable to keep clicking that fast”

It would've been much cooler if they made semi's able to go full auto as part of the build, The Lato has a base fire rate of 5, you double that and are getting 10 fire rate.

This would be a great case of, if you build a weapon to be a machine gun, it becomes a machine gun. 

Not simply, you build it the exact same as a semi, and it works as a machine gun via toggle. 

I've given up on this change, but I feel like it destroys possibilities and weapon uniqueness. 

Edited 4 hours ago by (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE

[Pakaku]

5 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

It would've been much cooler if they made semi's able to go full auto as part of the build, The Lato has a base fire rate of 5, you double that and are getting 10 fire rate.

This would be a great case of, if you build a weapon to be a machine gun, it becomes a machine gun. 

Not simply, you build it the exact same as a semi, and it works as a machine gun via toggle. 

I've given up on this change, but I feel like it destroys possibilities and weapon uniqueness. 

I like that idea and probably thought about it myself at some point. I still think some weapons should still be selectively designed to be semi-auto for balancing reasons, though, like snipers and rocket launchers,