Feedback Request for Limbo being enabled in Conclave

[[DE]Sam]

Howdy, Tenno! 

Based on earlier feedback from the Nova thread, we also wanted to ask if people felt Limbo should be enabled in the Conclave! Similar to the Nova thread, a poll is set up to gather responses (in addition to any replies below).

Thanks!

 

[GameGhost123]

Please disable him his abilities are completely broken. By the way we're loving this Sam. Thank you so much for doing this. We really appreciate it!

Edited Monday at 05:13 PM by GameGhost123

[Tachmag]

Yeah, this frame needs to go. A frame that allows someone to be fully afk with 100% damage invulnerability has no place in conclave.

[gwan]

Thank you for this poll. While I believe Limbo is fun, he ruins the pace for everyone else in the lobby with his rift, that's why I don't use him and voted for his removal.

The only way he wouldn't feel out of place would be in a limbo-only instagib variant like we had with opticor. That could be fun.

 

Edited Monday at 05:27 PM by gwan
Typo

[Tachmag]

Btw, I don't believe a poll like that is ideal, as people who do not play the gamemode at all can skew voting maliciously. At the time of this post, the vote is 8 for ban and 5 against a ban. Despite this, none of the anti-ban accounts have provided any argument so far.

Edited Monday at 05:32 PM by Tachmag

[NewCommunicationDevice]

Limbo is a frame that's extremely difficult to balance, considering the nature of the rift. It disrupts gameplay in lobbies, and Banish can straight up neuter a player while stripping their shields. 

It's better for the mode for the frame to go, imo. Removing the passive would remove what thematically makes up Limbo, and the disconnect between the PvE and PvP versions would be too large of a discrepancy.

Some frames like Qorvex could probably be added to the mode instead with a couple of ability tweaks.

Qorvex:

• 1m of Punch Through to all weapons as the passive
• Reduced Chyrinka Pillar damage, duration, and radius 
• Reduced Containment Wall range, damage, no damage vulnerability, and doesn't push players/has a reduced push radius (should only deal damage with direct wall contact)
• Disometric Guard can remain as is
• Crucible Blast needs a giant damage and AoE nerf

This is an example of a frame that could easily be balanced and have some parity between PvE and PvP variants. It's just not possible with how Limbo functions.

Edited Monday at 05:30 PM by NewCommunicationDevice

[GameGhost123]

1 minute ago, Tachmag said:

Btw, I don't believe a poll like that is ideal, as people who do not play the gamemode at all can skew voting maliciously.

Agreed. All it takes is 1 pve player to show their buddies and vote against what we want just to troll us.

[traybong111]

3 minutes ago, gwan said:

The only place where he wouldn't feel out of place would be in a limbo only instagib variant like we had with opticor. That could be fun.

A Limbo/Lex only purgatory is what I've advocated for DE staffs specifically a long time.

I recognize the very idea of Rift being unfit for most PvP models. I hope I don't come across as advocating for an unbalanced--and unbalance-able--frame to remain when I express my disappointment towards yet another gear choice being excised from Conclave.

I am still voting to disable him, but it is with great ambivalence and several asterisks begging for at least some of the missing Prime frames and weapons to be added in Conclave. Like, at least return the Tatsus.

[NewCommunicationDevice]

2 minutes ago, traybong111 said:

A Limbo/Lex only purgatory is what I've advocated for DE staffs specifically a long time.

I recognize the very idea of Rift being unfit for most PvP models. I hope I don't come across as advocating for an unbalanced--and unbalance-able--frame to remain when I express my disappointment towards yet another gear choice being excised from Conclave.

I am still voting to disable him, but it is with great ambivalence and several asterisks begging for at least some of the missing Prime frames and weapons to be added in Conclave. Like, at least return the Tatsus.

Titania Prime should come back, it was fine.

Bring back Zenith, just nerf its damage a bit. We miss this gun.

[GoldenJeans37]

Limbo is simply able to completely negate most of the gameplay of Conclave, making it extremely slow. I've voted ban.

[NewCommunicationDevice]

2 minutes ago, Okami_Amaterasu said:

Limbo doesn't really fit in with Conclave IMO. He's just a nuisance to the entire lobby in-game and only works as a glorified spectator.

Hasn't been for a long time.

Yeah, true. Limbo encourages semi-AFK gameplay in lobbies, because you can just sit in the rift the whole game and only abilities can damage you.

[Limbo_Darkness]

As a Limbo fan elsewhere I think he should be removed. Personally wish that I could play as Limbo cosmetically without having to deal with Limbo's PvP kit being disruptive both to everyone else in the lobby and actually playing him, but I would rather Conclave matches feel fun to play. Maybe one day we can have a future where we can use Warframes for cosmetic only without having abilities be present (personally think it's a good gentlemen's agreement to not use abilities in lobbies), but I don't imagine it is worth the time to change it.

[SophiaSharky]

kill the rift man

its fun to weave in and out of the rift with a shotgun or something, but it also makes others quite annoyed, which we dont want here

[ToxicCookie91]

Haven't played much of Limbo myself in pvp, but I voted for him to stay, given some balance changes. Wouldn't putting a duration on how long he stays in the rift after using his passive, as well as with a cooldown between activations fix most issues? Say activating it puts you into other side for 2-3 seconds, with a 5 second wait from exit until new activation?

What would help this and already existing changes, would be an easily accessible overview of conclave specific changes.

[NewCommunicationDevice]

3 hours ago, ToxicCookie91 said:

Haven't played much of Limbo myself in pvp, but I voted for him to stay, given some balance changes. Wouldn't putting a duration on how long he stays in the rift after using his passive, as well as with a cooldown between activations fix most issues? Say activating it puts you into other side for 2-3 seconds, with a 5 second wait from exit until new activation?

What would help this and already existing changes, would be an easily accessible overview of conclave specific changes.

The issue is, the rift passive costs no energy to cast and has the massive issue of stripping shields.

If the rift doesn't strip shields, the Limbo isn't punished and can be killed with even fewer abilities than currently (the best counter cheese is to use Artemis Bow, which is very limiting). If it does strip shields, other players will also have their shields stripped, apart from just the Limbo.

If the rift only strips shields for the Limbo, the frame would be a nuisance to play, and other players would be able to abuse the rift portal without losing their shields. Ironically, one of the balancing factors of the rift is unbalanced in itself.

The issues are with the rift existing as a whole, not exactly related to adding a duration/potential cooldowns. It's always going to disrupt gameplay for other people.

Think about it. You're in the rift, and someone else shooting you is dealing 0 damage, despite hitting you directly.

The balance changes would need to completely tweak how Limbo functions in Conclave as a whole, but then it won't feel like Limbo. It's just one of the frames that don't make sense in the mode, just as frames like Wisp were never added.

I get people saying "removing content isn't good", and I want to see new stuff added to the mode that's balanced. It's why I suggested a frame like Qorvex.

I do have a couple of ideas about how Limbo could be balanced, albeit it'd break its identity a bit:

• Remove the rolling rift passive entirely, 0 energy and simply rolling for something that can prevent you from taking damage is always going to be broken, even with delays and/or a duration. Any sources of banishing yourself or enemies to the rift should no longer strip shields.
• Banish stripping shields for just 25 energy is extremely strong, and the rift duration is far too long. It should send players into the rift for a brief moment (0.5s or so), and should deal minimal damage. Around 30 Impact would be alright. In this way, timing a Banish could potentially save you from being hit by a player, but you'd have to cast it directly on them at the right moment. Much better than the current "haha, your shields are gone and you can't do anything for a few seconds", which disrupts gameplay.
• Stasis doesn't even work against hitscan weapons in Conclave, and it shouldn't. It's a very niche ability that would only affect projectiles trapped in Cataclysm, which is the only source of the rift now. Increase power duration to 20s, and make it consistent with Rift Surge. It'd essentially give the player some time to set up the rift, and create a projectile trap from within. This would be interesting, and infrequent enough to where it'd be a funny strategical move someone could do.
• Rift Surge would banish players leaving or being killed in the rift, but reduce its duration. 18s is far too long, and it should be more like 3s. Its effect radius should also be reduced to 3m. It'd basically just extend the duration/range of Cataclysm, letting players who leave the rift get hit by people within. The actual power duration of 20s is fine, because and it'd give players a window to set up their rift. It would also work with Banish.
• Cataclysm would be the only source of the rift (besides banishing players for a brief moment), and extend its duration to 6s but otherwise leave it as is. 

Basically, the rift would be relegated to the 4 ability, and the very abusable and annoying passive would be removed. Banish would have a place in being an ability the player could use to survive a hit or two and deal some extra damage to shields (mainly, since it's Impact). Stasis and Rift Surge would interact with Cataclysm, which would now be the source of the rift.

This is just one idea, and it'd take some effort to implement. But nerfing the frame in this way (particularly getting rid of the passive, which I need to reiterate) would be another solution, rather than removing the frame entirely.

 

Edited Tuesday at 12:12 AM by NewCommunicationDevice

[(PSN)O-lM00Nl-O]

Ive been a limbo fan for a long time, almost ever since i started playing back in 2015 or 2016 and i must say that Limbo in its current state is completely unbalanced for a PvP setting. His abilities are disruptive in a bad way making portal spamming with his passive annoying in both Team and Solo matches, prime rifting people with his 3rd ability a way to troll and/or harass people in a Solo match, and lastly its core ability to remove shields being the worst out of the entire kit playing against both allies and foes, by deleting entirely shields. 
Its a frame with potential for very janky gameplay and worse for Team modes (Cephalon Capture is unplayable if a single Limbo is in the match as rift makes anyone drop the ball, again allowing for trolling and sabotaging your own team). 

Limbo would be arguably acceptable ONLY IF it went to the balance state it had before its Rework, making him have (almost the same stats as before):

-No Insta Shield Delete
-No passive portals or self rifting (basically no passive and him having a normal roll animation)
-Rift being his 1st ability with a 3 or 4 second duration and a single target cast only rather than the AoE.

The rest of details i cannot remember specifically, so in summary it would be better to remove him, unless he can go to being the same frame he was being pre rework.

[Loxyen]

Limbo as he is atm, is sadly way to disruptive with his kit to fit Conclave's balancing structure. His abilities, active and passive, create easy ways to strip shields completely, make entire loadouts with the no current leap and even martial fury mods suffer big time and creates an easy invulnerable afk reputation farm opportunity. It'd be better to remove this frame until he might come back more balanced in the future.

Speaking about the future, it'll be much appreciated if we could get polls about which Warframes and/or weapons that could be added into the Conclave pool. As an example Inaros is in the Conclave pool, but Inaros Prime got removed after his launch while they were almost identical iirc.

[Okami_Amaterasu]

6 hours ago, Loxyen said:

Limbo as he is atm, is sadly way to disruptive with his kit to fit Conclave's balancing structure. His abilities, active and passive, create easy ways to strip shields completely, make entire loadouts with the no current leap and even martial fury mods suffer big time and creates an easy invulnerable afk reputation farm opportunity. It'd be better to remove this frame until he might come back more balanced in the future.

Speaking about the future, it'll be much appreciated if we could get polls about which Warframes and/or weapons that could be added into the Conclave pool. As an example Inaros is in the Conclave pool, but Inaros Prime got removed after his launch while they were almost identical iirc.

From what I remember Inaros Prime had the exact same stats, or slightly higher sprint speed. No idea why he was removed in that case.

[GameGhost123]

1 hour ago, Okami_Amaterasu said:

From what I remember Inaros Prime had the exact same stats, or slightly higher sprint speed. No idea why he was removed in that case.

Ye him and the tatsus no idea why they were removed. Especially with all the broken stances them not having stances for them was probably a good thing.

[ToxicCookie91]

Imo, normal frames and primes should have identical stats. Easier to balance out, and there is no other reason to keep normal frames when acquiring primes afaik, other than miniscule sprint speed difference.

As for Limbo, I agree with shield shredding having to go.

I still believe his passive can be balanced around to let him keep his identity a bit. Say that rolling gives him 2 seconds of rift time, and 5 second delay from rift time ends until you can use it again. Rolling just means rolling at that time. If this is still too OP, as it can give him some clutch escapes, a heavy nerf can be to give him a moment before he can use weapons/abilities after exiting, like half a second or less. This means you're still vulnerable while exiting, so you can't just set yourself up to headshot someone or queue an ability.

[NewCommunicationDevice]

8 minutes ago, ToxicCookie91 said:

Imo, normal frames and primes should have identical stats. Easier to balance out, and there is no other reason to keep normal frames when acquiring primes afaik, other than miniscule sprint speed difference.

This is incorrect. Many normal frames are actually upgrades, being an entire mobility tier higher without losing much EHP. A good example is Banshee vs Banshee Prime, where it's never worth trading 0.1 mobility for 10 armor.

Normal vs Prime frames having different EHP values give Conclave choices some excellent variety. It's just that certain Primes are overtuned because they gain a ton of EHP without losing mobility, such as Atlas Prime and Ivara Prime.

And by the way, mobility is an extremely important stat. Frames are either 0.8, 0.9, or 1.0 base. 0.1 is a massive difference.

11 minutes ago, ToxicCookie91 said:

I still believe his passive can be balanced around to let him keep his identity a bit. Say that rolling gives him 2 seconds of rift time, and 5 second delay from rift time ends until you can use it again. Rolling just means rolling at that time. If this is still too OP, as it can give him some clutch escapes, a heavy nerf can be to give him a moment before he can use weapons/abilities after exiting, like half a second or less. This means you're still vulnerable while exiting, so you can't just set yourself up to headshot someone or queue an ability.

Again, the issue isn't with cooldowns or delays. It's the very concept of being able to spend 0 energy and facetank someone's direct hits onto you. On top of that, the idea of adding a delay before weapons/abilities could be used would encourage the AFK farming style of Limbo gameplay that should be addressed here. The frame would essentially reward avoiding fights, especially if the shield strip is removed. There would be 0 downside to entering it from the Limbo's perspective, which is quite busted.

Compare Limbo's passive to all the others in Conclave, which are supplemental, albeit sometimes strong (Ivara's Radar, for instance). Being able to enter the rift at any time does more than most Conclave abilities- again, for 0 energy cost.

Simply remove the passive and nerf Banish, or remove the frame altogether.

[ToxicCookie91]

2 hours ago, NewCommunicationDevice said:

This is incorrect. Many normal frames are actually upgrades, being an entire mobility tier higher without losing much EHP. A good example is Banshee vs Banshee Prime, where it's never worth trading 0.1 mobility for 10 armor.

Normal vs Prime frames having different EHP values give Conclave choices some excellent variety. It's just that certain Primes are overtuned because they gain a ton of EHP without losing mobility, such as Atlas Prime and Ivara Prime.

And by the way, mobility is an extremely important stat. Frames are either 0.8, 0.9, or 1.0 base. 0.1 is a massive difference.

I was mostly thinking of pve content, in terms of reasons to keep the frame. If you're doing high level content, base armor has a ton to say for your final amount of armor.
Only reason I'd personally have to get the normal frames back, would be for conclave, but that's too much hassle to even consider. I'd much rather be able to play all frames with moderate balancing, than half of the frames with normal/prime versions with different balancing. But of course, that's only my take and better to do a poll on that itself.

2 hours ago, NewCommunicationDevice said:

Again, the issue isn't with cooldowns or delays. It's the very concept of being able to spend 0 energy and facetank someone's direct hits onto you. On top of that, the idea of adding a delay before weapons/abilities could be used would encourage the AFK farming style of Limbo gameplay that should be addressed here. The frame would essentially reward avoiding fights, especially if the shield strip is removed. There would be 0 downside to entering it from the Limbo's perspective, which is quite busted.

Compare Limbo's passive to all the others in Conclave, which are supplemental, albeit sometimes strong (Ivara's Radar, for instance). Being able to enter the rift at any time does more than most Conclave abilities- again, for 0 energy cost.

Simply remove the passive and nerf Banish, or remove the frame altogether.

Lots of cherrypicking over here. What defines Limbo the most, is going into the rift, and as for his kit, his passive would be his most identifying part and useful part in conclave. That's why I'm suggesting rather heavy balancing for it. But you say the very 'concept' of facetanking damage for free,  but you're not considering the fact that he can't do anything back in that moment, he can't shoot or melee them back in that moment either. And adding a recovery time after exit for him to respond, would balance out his "free, 0 downside" ability, as it'd give him a moment of evasion, but for a moment of vulnerability. For open spaces it'd be a death sentence, for running for cover it would be a play to make.

Heck, let the recovery time be closer to a second, or reduce the duration of evasion down to 1,5s or 1s, and then of course it comes down to cooldowns and delays. As for rewarding avoiding fights, adjusting the cooldown would impact this. Say if 2s evade + 1s recovery is strong, make the cooldown longer so he can't do it multiple times in a short fight.

But I see your point about lots of passives being a mixed bag, given that they're balanced for pve. But regarding Limbo, he's a special case as his passive is core to his kit, his other abilities are balanced around his passive. If he can't go into the rift with his passive, all his abilities would be reliant on his ultimate instead.

---

Given how it is, I would be down for real heavy balancing to make conclave more exiting and less confusing (i.e. less ability spam of many different kinds).
Let's say that every frame gets to use only 2 of their abilities, and keep it central around their core identity.
For example, Loki would get invisibility + decoy, focusing on his trickery.
Limbo would keep his passive + banish, to weave in and out of the rift and control the battlefield itself, turning it into a 1v1.

As it is, Conclave is an attempt at putting pve frames against each others in a pvp setting, which means a lot has changed, and even more should to balance it out.
Imho, having cooldowns for abilities would be better than to reward someone for standing on top of an energy orb the moment it respawns, but that's a bigger change which a lot of people might be against, understandably.

Edited Tuesday at 02:13 PM by ToxicCookie91

[NewCommunicationDevice]

24 minutes ago, ToxicCookie91 said:

I was mostly thinking of pve content, in terms of reasons to keep the frame. If you're doing high level content, base armor has a ton to say for your final amount of armor.
Only reason I'd personally have to get the normal frames back, would be for conclave, but that's too much hassle to even consider. I'd much rather be able to play all frames with moderate balancing, than half of the frames with normal/prime versions with different balancing. But of course, that's only my take and better to do a poll on that itself.

People who enjoy Conclave are fine with picking up copies of base frames for the mode. It's not a big issue for those who only have primes, as there are plenty of strong prime frame options. It just makes the arsenal more diverse for no drawback, which people appreciate. Also makes starter/easy to obtain gear more relevant.

Imagine if prime weapons were universal upgrades, for example. This would throw off balance for new players massively. Instead, some of the strongest gear in Conclave are available near the start of the game, below Mastery Rank 2. Even just MK1-Braton + Lato + Skana will take you miles.

27 minutes ago, ToxicCookie91 said:

Lots of cherrypicking over here. What defines Limbo the most, is going into the rift, and as for his kit, his passive would be his most identifying part and useful part in conclave. That's why I'm suggesting rather heavy balancing for it. But you say the very 'concept' of facetanking damage for free,  but you're not considering the fact that he can't do anything back in that moment, he can't shoot or melee them back in that moment either. And adding a recovery time after exit for him to respond, would balance out his "free, 0 downside" ability, as it'd give him a moment of evasion, but for a moment of vulnerability. For open spaces it'd be a death sentence, for running for cover it would be a play to make.

What I mean is being able to prevent taking damage at all and disrupting a fight that way. Sure, the Limbo can't do anything back in the moment. What this still accomplishes is the Limbo escaping damage it should have taken for 0 energy, the most important part.

If the shield strip is removed, the Limbo can do this freely without consequence. Not being able to fight back either isn't a consequence, the Limbo always has the advantage because it can control when it enters/exits the rift. On the other hand, if the shield strip stays, Limbo becomes broken offensively like it currently is, with Banish.

The issue with that "recovery time" idea is assuming that Conclave isn't Conclave. This is a game mode where having 2s of invulnerability is more than enough to break line of sight and be halfway across the map. Dzecar, a longtime player, plays entirely around this fact already. Dzecar gameplay with random Limbo rift walking would be unreasonable to play against.

40 minutes ago, ToxicCookie91 said:

Heck, let the recovery time be closer to a second, or reduce the duration of evasion down to 1,5s or 1s, and then of course it comes down to cooldowns and delays. As for rewarding avoiding fights, adjusting the cooldown would impact this. Say if 2s evade + 1s recovery is strong, make the cooldown longer so he can't do it multiple times in a short fight.
 

The "vulnerability" here is simply playing like a normal frame and being unable to enter the rift. This isn't a vulnerability period at all, and just means Limbo will briefly not have the advantage of being able to randomly escape death for free.

One huge issue with a potential vulnerability after leaving the rift is that it'd apply to other players trying to fight against the Limbo as well. Delays/cooldowns would make combat against Limbos feel incredibly clunky.

While the rift is the most crucial part of Limbo's kit, the roll passive is the largest issue by far and rift mechanics can still exist without the passive. As someone who has played against Limbos hundreds of times and has frequently spoken to the most active of Conclave players (many of whom have shared their opinions above), this is what we pretty much unanimously feel.

Remove the passive

Nerf Banish

47 minutes ago, ToxicCookie91 said:

But I see your point about lots of passives being a mixed bag, given that they're balanced for pve. But regarding Limbo, he's a special case as his passive is core to his kit, his other abilities are balanced around his passive. If he can't go into the rift with his passive, all his abilities would be reliant on his ultimate instead.

A lot of abilities and passives are balanced for PvP, and most passives aren't a mixed bag at all. In fact, a lot of more basic passives in PvE end up being incredible in PvP. Here are a couple of examples:

• Mesa increases the reload speed of single handed secondaries by 50%. This has an incredible synergy with a lot of them, and is particularly strong with low mag size weapons like the Broncos and Brakk. A lot of people will run Mesa just for this buff.
• Banshee silences every weapon, preventing her from showing up on Radar. This means she is much harder to track down, and can successfully break line of sight and escape fights much easier.
• Chroma has an additional jump, allowing him to perform more complex and unexpected movement than any other frame. An extra jump can throw off the aim for even some of the best players, not to mention how insane high level Chroma movement can look.
• Mirage's rolls are greatly sped up, and she is the fastest frame in Conclave by a large margin. It's common to use Mirage with higher damage per shot weapons like Lex, as it's possible to roll in-between the firerate delay. This passive is honestly quite strong and could use a speed nerf (her roll speed got buffed in PvE late 2022, and this had an effect on the Conclave implementation), as she breaks mobility tiers. Alternatively, the frame should have by far the least EHP in Conclave.
• Excalibur's passive increases the damage and attack speed of Swords, Nikanas, and Rapiers, which helps for melee movement and can make these already insanely strong melees even better.
• Nekros has a fairly unique passive, regenerating 5 health per second for 6 seconds on a kill. There are regen health on kill mods for rifles, shotguns, and pistols, but certain weapons cannot run these mods. A common synergy is to run snipers on Nekros, to get some actual regen on kill.

And the list goes on. Passives in Conclave are very nice supplemental things, and none of them have the active effect that an ability would. Limbo is the exception, and is a very unbalanced one.

58 minutes ago, ToxicCookie91 said:

But I see your point about lots of passives being a mixed bag, given that they're balanced for pve. But regarding Limbo, he's a special case as his passive is core to his kit, his other abilities are balanced around his passive. If he can't go into the rift with his passive, all his abilities would be reliant on his ultimate instead.

And that's alright. Limbo's ultimate is currently never used, so it would give the ability some love while also balancing the frame.

But also, Banish would still exist, and Rift Surge would affect that. It's just Stasis that'd be Cataclysm only, which is alright. The entire point of that ability is to create a projectile trap, and mixing that with the ultimate makes a lot of sense.

1 hour ago, ToxicCookie91 said:

Limbo would keep his passive + banish, to weave in and out of the rift and control the battlefield itself, turning it into a 1v1.

Given that the most popular mode in Conclave is an FFA, turning an encounter into a 1v1 out of nowhere for just existing is unbalanced. A player could be fighting someone else, and you'd just Banish them and deny a kill, while also getting the upper hand against them. It's a mechanic that negatively affects other people much more than the Limbo.

1 hour ago, ToxicCookie91 said:

As it is, Conclave is an attempt at putting pve frames against each others in a pvp setting, which means a lot has changed, and even more should to balance it out.
Imho, having cooldowns for abilities would be better than to reward someone for standing on top of an energy orb the moment it respawns, but that's a bigger change which a lot of people might be against, understandably.

Conclave is part Arena shooter, so orbs and ammo pickups are essential to its core design. I do agree that abilities as a whole need work. Many of them are unbalanced, such as some of Rhino's kit. Iron Skin and Roar in particular are far too strong. Volt shield is another commonly used cheese ability that's just not made for PvP. There are cases for other abilities like Vex Armor, but that ability is 75 energy and gives a brief moment of power once it's charged up.

[Tachmag]

3 hours ago, ToxicCookie91 said:

Lots of cherrypicking over here. What defines Limbo the most, is going into the rift, and as for his kit, his passive would be his most identifying part and useful part in conclave. That's why I'm suggesting rather heavy balancing for it. But you say the very 'concept' of facetanking damage for free,  but you're not considering the fact that he can't do anything back in that moment, he can't shoot or melee them back in that moment either. And adding a recovery time after exit for him to respond, would balance out his "free, 0 downside" ability, as it'd give him a moment of evasion, but for a moment of vulnerability. For open spaces it'd be a death sentence, for running for cover it would be a play to make.

Heck, let the recovery time be closer to a second, or reduce the duration of evasion down to 1,5s or 1s, and then of course it comes down to cooldowns and delays. As for rewarding avoiding fights, adjusting the cooldown would impact this. Say if 2s evade + 1s recovery is strong, make the cooldown longer so he can't do it multiple times in a short fight.

It doesn't matter if he can't shoot back. He can just run away while being invulnerable during key moments in an escape, punishing a player for landing good shots on a fleeing target.

Edited Tuesday at 05:41 PM by Tachmag

[(PSN)O-lM00Nl-O]

Just make him go back to what he was pre rework, 


No Portals spammed all around the map to disturb match flow
No passive rolls in and out of rift
No shield stripping for anyone,
1st ability 25 Energy to self rift 4 seconds
2nd ability 25 energy to Rift 1 PERSON you aimed directly at for 4 seconds
3rd ability extend rifted players duration by 8-10 seconds for 75 energy
4th cataclysm as its always been


If theres a problem as some people say 'its a free way to tank damage or avoid it" , then im glad to tell you all that DMG from Powers bypasses rift, so if a limbo tries escaping combat with low HP by either rifting you or himself then you better be prepared with 25 energy as either a saryn volt or whatever frame can deal damage or just keep chasing until the guy is unrifted, which is only 4 seconds. (killing him during his cast animation is also possible, so its not like theres no window to kill him between rifts)

The idea also encourages people to:


-Either carry at least 25 energy at all times. (Energy Orb Pickups Exist)
-Reconsider using NCL (No Current Leap Mod) meta that removes Energy production completely in exchange for +0.1 mobility.
-Reconsider using Overcharged that just like NCL has become a standard since the minimal need for energy is often discarded.


Making conclave loadouts more colorful than just being about carrying a gun and being as fast as the game allows, turning it more dynamic with the relevance of power usage during matches.

Though powers arent exactly at the best balance state, considering some are buggy &/or broken such as Mirages Eclipse, or any other impair/knockdown inflicting ability, the idea of returning limbo to his previous state would (if not completely solve) easily alleviate the major issues of Limbos ability kit which are:


- 0 Energy Cost Rifts
- Easy and Cheesy AoE 100% Shield Stripping
- Unlimited 15 second lasting Passive Portal Spams on Any location
- And most importantly a better experience for both Veteran and Newer players, as bad experiences can and have driven away players from the game mode.


I hope my suggestion comes in handy as it brings a different solid and easy way of dealing with Limbo while keeping him enabled in the game mode all of it which has already previously existed inside the game mode.

If the main issue is still to be opinionated around him being Invulnerable for the low cost of 25 energy even after having theoretically reverted back to its PRE REWORK state, then i beg to take in consideration Nyx's abilities for contrast, as they can also be a source of free invulnerability against any and all players in the match.


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