Weapons 2.0 - Overhauling The Boring And Generic Gunplay Of Warframe

[Luminati07]

I really dislike the smart bullet function in the vasto. I want to aim with them, so I don't want to got an autoaim function on it.

Yeah, I'll admit it was a pretty poor suggestion.

 

What I put in my OP aren't really suggestions, they're more...just inspiration to show that the gameplay doesn't need to be so generic.

So, take each one as they are, but think up your own inspiration.

[Aspari]

I love this. DE should do this ASAP because things like this are what will get the playerbase to love and support DE more than they already do.

[LukeAura]

So, the new grenade launcher seems to have a trigger detonation function, with multiple grenades able to be triggered at once. 
A little more what you were hoping for Nugget?  

Edit; Rush Built, going to see if this is heading towards the interesting weapon mechanic zone for everyone still reading this thread. 
 

Edited December 12, 2013 by LukeAura

[Luminati07]

Definitely sounds like it's a step in the right direction.

 

I'll have to give it a go for myself, though.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Definitely sounds like it's a step in the right direction.

 

I'll have to give it a go for myself, though.

It's fun, kinda unique, only complaint is that the 'nades bounce. and not a reliable "they're going that way" bounce. And then they're hard to see when they stop moving.

[LukeAura]

It's fun, kinda unique, only complaint is that the 'nades bounce. and not a reliable "they're going that way" bounce. And then they're hard to see when they stop moving.

I think that's more to do with level pieces and arc than the grenades themselves. 

I actually like that they bounce. 

Let's you try and trick shot around corners. 

I wish they had a teensy bit more AoE range. 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I think that's more to do with level pieces and arc than the grenades themselves. 

I actually like that they bounce. 

Let's you try and trick shot around corners. 

I wish they had a teensy bit more AoE range. 

eh, true. Personally I'd like a charge for range (but not damage) instead.

[LukeAura]

That could be interesting!
Let's hope this is the launch of an explosive new realm of weaponry options. 

[Luminati07]

It's fun, kinda unique, only complaint is that the 'nades bounce. and not a reliable "they're going that way" bounce. And then they're hard to see when they stop moving.

From what I've heard, the Penta is pretty fun to use.

 

Haven't used it yet, though. After 11.3 I'm taking a break.

That update was just...

Edited December 13, 2013 by Nugget_

[LukeAura]

I know what you mean. 
Things are just getting turned up on their ends. (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━━━━━━━┻
 
And almost none of it feels any better than it had before. 
It's nice to see they've finally kicked into gear with the changes, but it seems like they way overshot the mark on a lot of things. 

Edited December 13, 2013 by LukeAura

[taiiat]

there's nothing wrong with trying many things to see what works. 

 

each change gets things a little bit better.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

From what I've heard, the Penta is pretty fun to use.

 

Haven't used it yet, though. After 11.3 I'm taking a break.

That update was just...

Yeah, the penta is fun, but man, coming down to the last few dregs of weapons to level. Crap like the ceramic dagger, or skana, and U11.3's damage resistances.... Who the F*** looked at those and went "Yup, those seem fine!"?

 

And then the purposed new experience system! Kill with a weapon to earn EXP, which DIRECTLY encouraged AFK'ers to kill with one weapon, then go to sleep and hope their team kills everything. (atleast it's undergoing more consideration I guess...)

[BoomstickJohnson]

Please make this happen.

[LukeAura]

there's nothing wrong with trying many things to see what works. 

 

each change gets things a little bit better.

Hopefully. Except it feels that the first iterations of D2.0 were way better than what they've come up with recently. 

 

 

And then the purposed new experience system! Kill with a weapon to earn EXP, which DIRECTLY encouraged AFK'ers to kill with one weapon, then go to sleep and hope their team kills everything. (atleast it's undergoing more consideration I guess...)

Don't forget to mention you could deal 99% of your damage with a maxxed out weapon, and just finish each foe's last 1% of health with a weak one, and they were looking at it and going, "Yup! He definitely learned something about that weak weapon he is trying to learn!" Did you really though? Not at all.  

They should just introduce bonus experience for levelling weapons at enemy ranges suitable for them. 

And if they really want to make a system based on giving bonus exp to weapon use than the consideration for having used a weapon should be something closer to 

the sum of the total damage of each weapon divided by its base damage and then added together.

We have three weapons so. 

Total Damage = Td1,2,3

Base Damage = Tb1,2,3

The percentage of bonus = P and the formula looks like

P= (Tdx/Tbx)(Td1/Tb1 + Td2/Tb2 + Td3/Tb3) 

And then to avoid going to high levels and leeching just give bonus experience at levels suited for the weapon.

Edited December 13, 2013 by LukeAura

[NeoBlackstar]

I would love if this was one of the primary considerations of DE.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/147659-community-melee-weapons-overview/

Not sure if this or the 14k words topic is a better place, but OH BOY, MORE MELEE WEAPONS! (because we don't have enough generic, boring longsword reskins. Or maybe the melee weapons will be good, who knows. Maybe they are planning an overhaul of melee weapons as we post. Or maybe the weapons will be just like the lecta. Fancy skin + new animations, but otherwise a normal melee weapon)

[LukeAura]

Oh I hope we get a melee update if they're actually doing this community melee weapon builder. 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Oh I hope we get a melee update if they're actually doing this community melee weapon builder. 

I hope so, but lets be honest, melee weapons have been in a bad spot longer than the damage system and they haven't been fixed. MAYBE now is the time, but eh... What melee needs (at the very least) is simply increased numbers (for a start). Why should I ever go chop that guy up with my sword, which is INCREDIBLY high risk, when I could do better with my MK1 Braton or Braton?

 

More or less, melee is high risk, so it needs to be seriously high reward.

[LukeAura]

I'd rather see it be more agile. Okay well a damage boost to. 
Drawing a long cut against someone with a Skana should not deal the same amount of damage as a single gorgon bullet. 
but really, the time I spend chasing a foe I'm shooting at him just to finish him off with my sword anyways. 
Melee needs some movement with it. 
If you ever played Assassin's creed brotherhood or onward when they introduced kill streaks you'll kind of know what I mean. Foes would be closer to you in that game but that still wasn't a reason you needed to stop. You could pick a new target and just pretty much leap to them without breaking the pace of the fight. It had a fast, almost rhythmic quality to it. In warframe you spend most of any non-infested melee combat time running to your next target after killing one.
If they fixed the wallrun attack so we didn't stop five metres away from the wall that would be a huge improvement in itself. 

 

[LordofTibera]

First off I want to say that I am a huge proponent of this thread and I agree with everything you've said, OP. Besides stats, which ARE important, mind you, it's important to have the guns FEEL different, thus make weapon choices more about personal preference and playstyle, not handicapping yourself because you don't want to use the objectively "best weapon."

 

I mean, look at all you made! Unique weapon traits, unique "powers" that alter gameplay and tailor to different player styles, and to top it all off, cool-sounding power names.

 

That said, DE's making money and progress and doesn't care about what we think. I really don't want to say that, but I feel it's true. Taking some of the best received changes is too costly, takes too much time, and is far too destructive to overhaul the game in the ways some of us have been proposing. TheGreatZamboni's thread on changing the thesis of the game and sustainability of mods and this are excellent examples of thinking outside the box and changing the established system for the greater good. Unfortunately, the games industry is all about meeting deadlines and making money, not about your entertainment.

 

If DE feels they will take these considerations to heart, then they need to communicate that to us if they truly cared about our opinions. However, as much as I don't want to admit it, this is a forum for a bunch of us to get together and scream and cry about what we dislike about the game. The devs are moving on without us and read probably 1% of all the major topics presented here.

 

That's what hurts me about seeing such a great and well thought out idea like this thread. It's all pointless.

Edited December 13, 2013 by LordofTibera

[Luminati07]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/147659-community-melee-weapons-overview/

Not sure if this or the 14k words topic is a better place, but OH BOY, MORE MELEE WEAPONS! (because we don't have enough generic, boring longsword reskins. Or maybe the melee weapons will be good, who knows. Maybe they are planning an overhaul of melee weapons as we post. Or maybe the weapons will be just like the lecta. Fancy skin + new animations, but otherwise a normal melee weapon)

Hahaha, it just gets better and better. -.-

 

Unless DE delves into the realm of fantasy, there's only so much you can do with melee weapons.

You can give them awesome attack styles and combo moves, which would be great. But, I just can't see DE implementing it correctly.

 

DE should be focusing on sorting out the gunplay, not adding more pointless mastery fodder.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Hahaha, it just gets better and better. -.-

 

Unless DE delves into the realm of fantasy, there's only so much you can do with melee weapons.

You can give them awesome attack styles and combo moves, which would be great. But, I just can't see DE implementing it correctly.

 

DE should be focusing on sorting out the gunplay, not adding more pointless mastery fodder.

Recent LS said they're working on a "true" melee system, but from the little gameplay they showed it was more or less just equipping your melee weapon, as in, primary fire is swinging the melee weapon, aim is blocking. So, unless melee weapons get a MASSIVE buff alongside this, melee weapons will still be worthless.

 

But, I can hope DE does this well, maybe there will be buffs to all melee weapons, maybe not, but unless melee weapons get roughly 3x damage (on long swords/daggers, maybe 2x on heavy melee weapons), they'll be weak as always. Melee is high risk, so obviously it has to be high reward, which means buffing the damage through the roof, otherwise why bother with melee unless you want to see some fancy animations?

 

edit: Oh, and maybe I missed in the LS, but no mention of the "different firing modes" DESteve talked about.

Edited December 14, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[LukeAura]

It sounded like from the livestream there will be a lot of melee bonuses? Abilities? Skills? Things. 
Things works. 
Something that differentiates a base rank melee weapon from a fully ranked one that isn't just mod points and damage. 
Here's hoping Melee will be useful outside of hugging range! 

And to be fair about the design contest. 
They'll be introduced over the coming months, so this is probably not going to be the primary concern and they're saving some time with giving concepts and designs to the artists anyways. It might not be the best move, but it certainly doesn't hurt. 
Besides, idea 1 is a stick. That's pretty damn hilarious. 

[Luminati07]

It sounded like from the livestream there will be a lot of melee bonuses? Abilities? Skills? Things. 

Things works. 

Something that differentiates a base rank melee weapon from a fully ranked one that isn't just mod points and damage. 

Here's hoping Melee will be useful outside of hugging range! 

And to be fair about the design contest. 

They'll be introduced over the coming months, so this is probably not going to be the primary concern and they're saving some time with giving concepts and designs to the artists anyways. It might not be the best move, but it certainly doesn't hurt. 

Besides, idea 1 is a stick. That's pretty damn hilarious. 

Bleh, I'll hold off on judgement until it's released.

 

And yeah, I laughed when I saw the first entry in the contest. :D

[MJ12]

I read your OP and I thought it was really interesting, but the issue here is, again, there's a lot of work you're asking for. What I think you should try to do is try to tone down the individual effects, possibly having a medium-sized pool (instead of 50 guns each with a unique alt-fire) since that's somewhat easier to balance and implement.

 

Again, dev time is a thing. And two weapons with different primary fire characteristics having identical secondary fires doesn't make them the same weapon. I mean, the Gorgon shooting exploding bullets as an alt-fire with 1/3rd the fire rate but 2x the damage and a 2m blast radius is going to be way different from the Vulkar firing explosive bullets. A few weapons might have unique alternate fires.

 

The example I'd give is something like:

 

Concussive Rounds: This weapon can fire single high-power shots that knock enemies down ("ragdoll"). Damage is doubled but recoil is quadrupled and fire rate is reduced to 25% normal. Uses double the normal ammunition.

Weapons: Cerno, Soma, Strun/Vandal

 

Explosive Rounds: This weapon can fire explosive alternate ammunition. Fire rate is decreased to 33%, but the weapon deals 125% of its normal damage in an explosive AoE effect. Radius is 2m on automatic rifles or shotguns, and 5m on all other weapons.

Weapons: Gorgon, Boar/Prime, Lato, Vulkar, Paris

 

Grenade Launcher: This weapon can fire impact-fused high-velocity grenades. Unlike the Penta, these have a minimal arc and explode on impact. Grenades have a base damage of 25 (Impact) and 250 AoE Blast damage. The number of shots used by this weapon is dependent on the weapon's base ammo type. Rifle/Pistol: 10 rounds/grenade. Shotgun: 5 rounds/grenade. Sniper: 2 rounds/grenade. Grenades have a base fire rate of 1.0.

Weapons: Braton/Prime, Grakata, Seer.

Variants: Toxic Grenades (250 AoE Gas damage), Incendiary Grenades (250 AoE Heat damage), Gyrojet Launcher (no ballistic arc)

 

High-Velocity Rounds: This weapon can fire extremely penetrating ammunition. Adds +1m to Punch-Through and +50% puncture damage. Recoil is doubled and rate of fire is reduced by 30%.

Weapons: Braton-Mk1, Latron Prime, Snipetron/Snipetron Vandal, Hek

 

Magazine Dump: This weapon can empty its magazine extremely quickly. Fire rate is tripled and the trigger is full-auto, but the weapon's recoil is doubled and accuracy is reduced slightly.

Weapons: Latron, Lanka, Sicarus, Hind, Sobek.

 

Penetrating Shot: The weapon fires a single, extremely powerful instant-hit shot that is perfectly accurate, takes up 10 ammunition and deals damage equal to 8 normal shots. Base fire rate is 0.8, base punch-through is 5m.

Weapons: Supra, Burstron, Furis/Akfuris

 

And so on. Consolidation. Also, some alt-fires seem pretty gimmicky, like most of the mine ones, which may only be useful for defense-type missions. I support your idea in broad-strokes, but I think you need to spend some time thinking of implementation issues.

Edited December 16, 2013 by MJ12