Neutral Skill Grenades. Aka - The Bring Your Own Bombs Thread.

[Blatantfool]

 Nice and easy thread. I'm going to run down a quick list of Grenades used in another game (Lost Planet 2) with some slight changes here and there as a suggestion for Warframe's first set of 'Neutral skills' (Skills equip-able by any frame in the game in place of one of their 4 skills.) assuming DE ever wants to go this route. I had a short conversation with another Comm Mod and promptly decided to make this thread so I have something to link to when talking about this in the future.

 

 For the sake of this thread please assume that all of these Grenade skills would exist as a 25 energy skill with comparable damage to any Frame's 1 skill. 

 

 Also keep in mind that, as with all grenades, damage is focused mostly at the very core. Enemies caught on the edge of the blast are not hurt as badly as when it goes off underneath them. Grenades will also hurt you if you set them off under your own two feet. They are not effected by power range or duration mods. They are effected by strength and efficiency.

 

 First up is the 'Basic grenades'. 

 

 

 

 

Hand Grenade 1 is the most basic grenade. It emits a red flashing light before exploding. When thrown it has a set timer, when the timer finishes, the grenade explodes dealing high damage. It can rebound on walls, making it useful in attempts to kill enemies in junctions. In addition to this, if it is shot in midair or on the ground after being thrown, it will prematurely detonate. The Grenade has a fuse time of about 2 seconds after leaving your hand.

 

The Hand Grenade II performs the same actions as the standard hand grenade but offers a larger blast radius and takes longer to explode on its own. It thrown underarmed, making it less likely to hit the ceiling in covered spaces and therefore easier to use, with a slightly shorter thrown range.

 

The Hand Grenade III does not explode when fired at and will not deal damage to you (The thrower), making it safer to use. It detonates only after its timer runs out offering the largest blast radius of the hand grenades (minus the Buster Grenade). It is much safer to use in crowds than the regular hand grenade, but takes away the tactic of detonating it prematurely. The Grenade has a fuse time of about 2.5 seconds after leaving your hand.

 

 

The Incendiary Grenade is thrown like a standard hand grenade. Upon detonation it releases a fire explosion that covers a small area. Damage is low to medium and purely fire, but the target and immediate area is ignited and takes damage over time, even after the target has left the detonation zone or the grenade duration ends. The Incendiary grenade is meant to be thrown higher in the air and detonate on its own, or more effectively be shot to detonate at the targeted location. Upon doing this the flames cover a much larger area.

 

 

 

The Buster Grenade is a Basic Grenade type that glows pink with the shape of a small underwater mine. It cannot be detonated by shooting it, but it creates a massive explosion that deals very heavy damage to those caught in it. When thrown, the grenade has a short charge up period where it makes a distinct sound before detonation. While the Grenade does feature a massive blast range, the damage fall off moving away from the center of the blast is the most drastic.

 

 

 

 Next up, Gum Grenades.

 

 

 

The Gum Grenade has the ability to stick on anything it touches. If it sticks on a person it does a ton of bonus damage - easily killing softer enemies outright. It emits a faint, flashing orange light before detonating. The Gum Grenade is also heavier than other grenades so it cannot be thrown very far, and has a fuse time of about 3.5 seconds after hitting a target or surface.

 

 The Gum Grenade II performs the same actions as the standard Gum Grenade, but can be thrown further and has the biggest blast radius. It is thrown using the long side-swing animation, meaning it can be thrown less rapidly than the normal Gum Grenade. The Grenade has a fuse time of about 2.5 seconds after hitting a target or surface.

 

The Gum Grenade III performs the same actions as the standard Gum Grenade but cannot be detonated by shooting it and has a weaker explosion. This grenade will not damage you (The thrower). The Grenade has a fuse time of about 2.5 seconds after hitting a target or surface.

 

 

 

The Chameleon Grenade is thrown like a Gum Grenade, but it functions differently from other grenades. Once thrown, the grenade will not detonate on its own. Instead, it will detonate once the skill is activated again, effectively turning the grenade into a remote mine. The grenade has a built-in camera that allows its users to see accurate information on any enemies nearby the grenade on the minimap, allowing it to function as a tracking device as well as giving its user a better idea of when to set the grenade off.

 

 

 

The Spark Grenade is extremely effective against both biological and robotic targets, causing high electric damage. It will momentarily stun any robotic target to pass through its area. The grenade releases a constant burst of electricity that can pierce walls to hit foes hiding behind cover. However, its blast radius is very small compared to other grenades, so it must be thrown accurately to hit its targets.

 

 Will continue with more in another post. 

[taiiat]

where's my Frisbee grenade?!

 

:>

 

best grenade ever.

[ALL.CAPS.GUY]

imo they should be gear. and iirc, grenades were in early WF profile stats, although we could never GET grenade kills.

 

ALSO +1 GIMMEH GREENAIDZ

:P

[Brahmastra]

Sounds interesting, don't really know what else to say.

[Archistopheles]

Obvious talking point: These abilities have to be worse than Fireball, Shock, Tesla, etc. for them to be accepted. True or false?

[DeadScream]

Obvious talking point: These abilities have to be worse than Fireball, Shock, Tesla, etc. for them to be accepted. True or false?

They have to be an utility more than a damaging thing, IMO. 

 

Or everyone will use them and the first powers will disappear.

[Satwo]

What we need is a bomber warframe that specializes in various grenades. feasible and can give everyone their grenade fix.

[Renan.Ruivo]

What we need is a bomber warframe that specializes in various grenades. feasible and can give everyone their grenade fix.

 

Bomber Warframe.

 

Fund it, ship it.

[Blatantfool]

 Round three. Disc grenades. (Getting an ultimate frisbee vibe here.)

 

 

 

 The Disk Grenade emits a flashing yellow light before detonating. Unlike other grenades, when thrown, it spins like a frisbee and flies in a straight line. It will not stick to a wall, it will stop and bounce a short distance before hitting the ground, but it will stick to soft targets and destructible objects. The Grenade has a fuse time of about 5 seconds after leaving your hand.

 

The Disc Grenade II performs the same actions as the standard Disc grenade with a bigger blast radius. It also uses the standard Grenade throwing action (overhead throw), and travels significantly slower than the regular Disk Grenade; so it can be thrown more rapidly and staggers you and enemies for less time. The Grenade has a fuse time of about 10 seconds after leaving your hand, a very long time. Because it moves so slowly, and has a shorter throwing animation, it is very well suited to throwing near a target and shooting it when it's in proximity, especially at short range; do not expect to hit fast targets directly though.

 

The Disc Grenade III performs the same actions as the standard Disc grenade and creates the largest blast radius, with lower damage. It will also unable to be detonated by shooting it and cannot harm the thrower.

 

 

The Shuriken Grenade is a Disc Grenade type that is unlike other disc grenades in that it can ricochet off walls without losing speed, like a Glaive. The powerful spinning blade on the weapon will allow the grenade to do contact damage, if the Grenade touches a target and kills it the grenade will punch straight through. If it hits a very large target the grenade will embed itself, dealing constant damage over time until the grenade explodes. It deals little explosive damage and has a small radius.

 

 

The Energy Grenade is a Disc Grenade that is thrown faster and travels quicker than other disc grenades, but it detonates upon travelling a short distance. It deals more damage to robotic and armored enemies than standard Disc Grenades, as well as disabling the target from using special abilities for a brief duration. (Like a Tech producing Osprey, Stalker using Slash Dash or a Player using skills in Conclave. It is a Silence status.)

 

 

 Fourth time round, Release grenades. 

 

The Dummy Grenade when thrown produces an illusory fake Tenno along with a taunt effect, moving in a straight line that can overcome obstacles (jumping small cover and using stairs). If shot, or if it collides with an enemy player, it explodes, dealing a moderate amount of damage and stunning enemies around it.

 

The Dummy Grenade II is stationarity and does not fire, it works as a distraction or a trap, this may attract the enemy in for an ambush. It also has a more powerful explosion than other variants, with no stun.

 

The Dummy Grenade III features a working Braton. The Dummy Grenade III will float in place, firing its Braton in a wide arc, dealing damage to anything in front of it, including the player. It can take slightly more damage than the other Dummy Grenades (can take a small amount of enemy fire), however, its explosion causes no damage upon final detonation or being shot by its owner. The Braton is completely functional, and can even get headshots as if a player was using one, even against the player who threw the grenade.

 

 

The Balloon Grenade is a Dummy Grenade type that when thrown floats through the air slowly via balloon. After a certain amount a time, the balloon explodes and releases a toxic shower that quickly drains the health of enemies below. It often goes unnoticed while it floats through the sky. It makes a quiet pop sound upon explosion.

 

 

The Firecracker is a Dummy Grenade type, and it is rolled instead of thrown. On detonation, it releases a firework-like explosion with a parachute that falls from the sky. It makes a whistle and pops like a bottle rocket. The grenade may seem to be mostly for a visual gag, but it is a real weapon. It fires vertically to damage anything standing on it for a fair amount of damage or flying over it for heavy damage.

 

 

 ALMOST DONE

[Blatantfool]

Final typing. Plasma grenades.

 

The Plasma Grenade emits a flashing light before detonating. It has a large blast radius, will paralyze all targets, but inflicts small damage. When it hits something, it emits the sound of a glass bottle. The fuse time is about 1 second after it leaves your hand.

 

The Plasma Grenade II serves the same purpose as the standard Plasma Grenade but offers a larger blast radius. The fuse time is about 2.5 seconds after it leaves your hand. This grenade is thrown using the normal over-arm throw animation, meaning it takes slightly longer to throw than the normal Plasma Grenade.

 

The Plasma Grenade III serves the same purpose as the standard Plasma Grenade but offers the largest blast radius, while taking an even longer time to detonate.

 

The Regen Grenade is a support/defensive grenade that when thrown will produce a small green domed field in which it can heal any player who enters the dome, friend or foe. The healing speed is slow. The Regen Grenade will also heal sentinels and minions.

 

 

The Warp Grenade sets up a portal allowing teleportation between the location where the grenade was deployed and the area where the player threw it. It does not do any damage and is useful for quick escapes or reaching difficult spots. Basically, you throw this bad boy up onto a platform you want to be on. if it lands on a surface big enough for you then you'll teleport to that spot.

[Blatantfool]

Obvious talking point: These abilities have to be worse than Fireball, Shock, Tesla, etc. for them to be accepted. True or false?

 

 

They have to be an utility more than a damaging thing, IMO. 

 

Or everyone will use them and the first powers will disappear.

 

  Like I said. Assume that really, when it comes down to it, these grenades are doing damage on par with normal 1 skills.

 

 Not much less, not much more. About the same. 

[LordMidnightX]

where's my Frisbee grenade?!

 

:>

 

best grenade ever.

 

what about a boomerang grenade :D

[taiiat]

what about a boomerang grenade :D

grenades explode. boomerangs come back. 

 

this can only go badly.

[lucio1019]

So...nad...

I think it will turn loki into a massive killing machine.

I personally would love to see it happen but it seems to be op if it is a power per se.

[Letter13]

As a sort of 'neutral' set of skills that any Warframe can employ, I could see these expanding Warframe builds and playstyles. Variety is the spice of life after all. Heck, you could have a Warframe that only uses grenades--or would there be a limit to how many 'grenade' type skills that can be equipped?

 

Or would these actually be better as consumable gear that players have to craft as opposed to 'skills' that channel the Warframe's stored energy?

[Blatantfool]

As a sort of 'neutral' set of skills that any Warframe can employ, I could see these expanding Warframe builds and playstyles. Variety is the spice of life after all. Heck, you could have a Warframe that only uses grenades--or would there be a limit to how many 'grenade' type skills that can be equipped?

 

Or would these actually be better as consumable gear that players have to craft as opposed to 'skills' that channel the Warframe's stored energy?

 

 I would greatly prefer they be skills, honestly. These would, in my opinion, be much less fun if you had to do Credit or Mats farming to stockpile them.

 

 I figure that what DE could do is allow a player to substitute a Neutral skillcard in place of any of their first 3 skills - however a Grenade skillcard would be incapable of being a 4th slot skill (Your 'Uber')

 

 You'd also be able to equip 3 of them, but for each past the first that skillcard would suffer an efficiency penalty that'd make it cost more then the last.

 

 25, 50, 75 if you use 3 Grenade Skillcards in place of all 3 of your 'Normal skills'

 

 However if you've only got one it'll be a plain cost of 25.

[Satwo]

i still like the old idea that was tossed around a couple months back that each warframe would have a small library of skills instead of the initial 4. each warframe has the capacity to specialize in their own kind of grenade, as posted by blatant.

maybe that idea needs a revival, coupled with the idea in this topic.

[Blatantfool]

i still like the old idea that was tossed around a couple months back that each warframe would have a small library of skills instead of the initial 4. each warframe has the capacity to specialize in their own kind of grenade, as posted by blatant.

maybe that idea needs a revival, coupled with the idea in this topic.

 

 I think, eventually, each frame having a few 'Extra skills' specifically for them would also be good. At the moment these grenade suggestions carry a different mindset. The idea that cards exist without a super specific theme or roll in mind, instead they'd add functions to your mod card library that'd let you have options that'd normally not be possible.

 

 These are extremely general functions. While a few of the clearly deal elemental damage - they are pretty much all just tools that you would probably imagine any Futuristic super soldier having access to.

 

 Wanna play a lot of Loki, but don't find yourself using Switch Teleport? Replace it with a Gum Grenade or Plasma nade.

 

 Wish you could tell a very large group of tightly knit enemies to shut up as loudly as possible? Bastille and Buster Grenade. Yeah baby.

[Satwo]

actually, that reminds me. i made a topic a while ago about a thought similar to this to regulate skill application and allow more skill variety.

DEs system has locked down skill sets to work well as a combo of 4. adding 'neutral skills' can upset that balance as weve seen with coolant leak on sentinels. the loadout system would need some minor tweaking to make glitchy loadouts a thing of the past. its time we moved into a new system in loadouts, and i know one way that could make this all happen.

put the 4 skill slots on their own line, similar to how auras are mildly seperated from warframe mod slots. skill slots would be locked down to each tier of skill level, 1 through 4. you can only have one of each level of skill, so people can customize their warframes with a multitude of skills to choose from.

this adds neutral skills, different play styles like aggressive and supportive skills, and for DEs sake; adding MORE skill cards to the drop tables, as only the original 4 skills would be accessable when making the frame. this could be good and bad, but i have faith that DE will create more faction enemies over time and am not worried about enemy drop tables personally.

so grenade skills would work into this just fine, as would bringing back old skills such as overheat (which i do miss to a great extent) and work in new skills of different tiers.

[Blatantfool]

actually, that reminds me. i made a topic a while ago about a thought similar to this to regulate skill application and allow more skill variety.

DEs system has locked down skill sets to work well as a combo of 4. adding 'neutral skills' can upset that balance as weve seen with coolant leak on sentinels. the loadout system would need some minor tweaking to make glitchy loadouts a thing of the past. its time we moved into a new system in loadouts, and i know one way that could make this all happen.

put the 4 skill slots on their own line, similar to how auras are mildly seperated from warframe mod slots. skill slots would be locked down to each tier of skill level, 1 through 4. you can only have one of each level of skill, so people can customize their warframes with a multitude of skills to choose from.

this adds neutral skills, different play styles like aggressive and supportive skills, and for DEs sake; adding MORE skill cards to the drop tables, as only the original 4 skills would be accessable when making the frame. this could be good and bad, but i have faith that DE will create more faction enemies over time and am not worried about enemy drop tables personally.

so grenade skills would work into this just fine, as would bringing back old skills such as overheat (which i do miss to a great extent) and work in new skills of different tiers.

 

 

 I like your thinking, but I'm also hesitant to say that we should dive straight into a situation where we can mix and match as we see fit.

 

 

 At the moment I'd like to see DE maybe roll out a 'First wave' of Neutral Skills. After that maybe a 'Second wave' of Frame specific skills. Baby steps with some breathing room to make it all work smooth.

[Satwo]

baby steps are great. no need to rush into an oversaturated content boom. each skill alone has potential to have bugs, so i agree.

[Blatantfool]

baby steps are great. no need to rush into an oversaturated content boom. each skill alone has potential to have bugs, so i agree.

 

 Your idea about the slots is good though. Definitely gonna push for that too.

[theGreatZamboni]

I said this in private to you Fool but it bears repeating, grenades would be detrimental to the game. It has come from DE themselves that grenades would push the notion that Warframe were just any other shooter. The powers themselves are to act as replacements in both damage and utility that would otherwise be provided by grenades. Adding them would only muddy the already bland mechanics and push Warframe even further towards being "any other shooter". The free running and melee have been neglected enough. Those two systems of play were and still are the main concepts pushed in DE's marketing, and the game has yet to see any improvement to these systems. Yes we are getting a melee rework soon, but my fear is it will not make solve the primal and subconscious dilemma the player must solve, which is: How do I best kill the enemy? This speaks to my issue of making melee an equippable and not sticking with the single button melee we have now, something we have talked about. Not only must something be effective, it needs to be fun. A different issue entirely, though it can apply here. Grenades can be fun, but would not be in the service of the concepts nor identity of the game.

 

Warframe is admits an identity crisis, adding grenades would only confuse the design further without doing much to help the game in the short or long term. Especially if the grenades are governed by mod cards.

 

Allowing every Warframe to use a neutral skill would further issues we have currently. Prior to Mag's rework, not many people used her powers outside of her ult. Now if we had not gotten those buffs, people would just slap in replacements for lacking powers. This goes back to my thread. No one should have to forgo the use of one of their powers because it is unviable. What defines a Warframe is not just esthetic, but also stats and powers. We already have people formaing Warframes' powers out of their builds because they find them to be lack luster. A Warframe's kit should be designed to be fun and powerful, which is precisely the problem. If someone were to forgo a power for a grenade, that means the developer made a poorly designed kit for that Warframe. This concept is idealistic without taking into account the logistical reasoning. To take away a Warframe's power is to dilute their identity. We already have people making builds of just Focus, Flow, Redirection, Vitality, Vigor, Steel Fiber, Streamline and 1 power. While the player is allowed to make that choice, it shows a lack of care in the design on the Warframes and mod card system. If the player is able to change effectively how a Warframe functions, it becomes irrelevant which Warframe you have equipped. When you choose a Warframe, it is based on their powers. If you do not like the powers, do not play that Warframe. The other issue is, as I stated above, if the power was truthfully unviable, then people will remove it and thus take away the identity or potential incentive to play that particular Warframe. Which again ties back into my threads and speaks to the strength of giving people powers innately and allowing them to modify said powers as I have outlined. It reinforces the role and strength of that Warframe, while providing new way of playing it for any given scenario. Your grenade idea, while earnest and pure in intent (to add more variety to the game) fails to understand why grenades were not in the game from the start and what it would mean going forward.

Edited January 11, 2014 by theGreatZamboni

[Blatantfool]

 Well said Zamboni. Thanks for the response. Don't have anything super useful to say in response to that. Need to mull over this subject more, clearly.

[Revel72]

Grenades? Yes please. At Lost Planet 2 grenades we nice and good option for combat.

 

Demoman: "Bloody hell. Those were my favorites! I bought two tickets to gun show but I am not giving them to ya. I am going with your tickets hohhehheh" *snor*