An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[Bakercompany86]

Did you see how they thought that that one question about "not knowing what they're doing or why they're doing it" from Rebecca was about them?

 

I don't think they know what they're doing at all.

 

Maybe not.  It seems to be outside of their range of experience.

 

You had UT, which was a legendary PvP shooter.

 

You had Dark Sector (Warframe 1.0), which had a definitive start and a definitive stop.

 

And now you have Warframe, that is none of the above.  So this is new to them.  And that's okay, I love Warframe and the potential it has.  

 

 

They just need to hire some AAA writers and content developers.  I think that would score them a big win.

[Kaian-a-coel]

I agree. They're just too stubborn to admit that they're being wrong about some stuff. -_-

[Bakercompany86]

I agree. They're just too stubborn to admit that they're being wrong about some stuff. -_-

 

I can understand why they don't.  For one of us to admit we're wrong, nobody cares.  We're just individuals playing a game.

 

 

But for a company to admit they're wrong about something, especially on a consistent basis can be a damaging thing.

 

They admitted how horrible the harvester deal went on LS20.  That's pretty huge I think.

 

Would we as players care if they admitted they were wrong?  Maybe, maybe not.

 

Honestly I just hope that behind closed doors they are focusing a chunk of resources on solving this problem.  It's currently the biggest issue (in my opinion) and I think it is for a lot of Warframe Players.

 

I do have faith in them though.  Livestreams help, because you can read the body language.  I do believe they have a strong desire to really deliver that knock out punch, and give us all the game we hoped Warframe will some day be.  Even if they're not sure how to do that yet.

[Blatantfool]

 DE's working on just about everything this thread talks about. It just isn't a rapid process, along with other big things already on DE's plate on the moment which demand love and attention. Which doesn't end up leaving many people feeling like they're being heard at all. This compounds with things like releasing big changes without much forewarning (Infested Invasions change) and other thins, like the community not being a big fan of the uncomfortable patches after a 2.0 update to a feature (which is normal, but not something that can be helped. Not easily.)

 

 It is all a weird, ugly issue. I don't think DE is all that afraid of saying their wrong, but they definitely aren't trying to sit there in a livestream or thread and talk about how busted something is without having either just fixed it or having a fix ready. 

 

 So there are a lot of situations where "Alright! Next question! Someguy99 asks "When are you going to finally fix the macguffin? It's been so messed up for like a week after X patch!"

 

 And they don't have a good answer because they've been looking at half a dozen other things so macguffin ended up pushed down the priorities list a bit in light of all this other stuff people are talking about. So you get "Uhh..Yeah. We do know about it. We're definitely looking into it!" because whats he gonna do? Give the ALSO terrible answer of "Well, I've been stressing over this other Macguffin so I haven't sat down with that yet."? Which is gonna &!$$ off just as many people most days.

 

 Also, to clarify

 

 I'm not saying "DE is smashing it out of the park and people refuse to see it!"

 

 I'm saying "Incredibly easy for you to end up in a situation where you just plain don't have an answer good enough. Nobody wants to sit there and feel like and &#! because working on one thing took their attention off something equally important."

 

 

 So yeah. My 2 cents. I like many of the things I'm seeing in this thread, by the way. Keeping feedback and solutions rolling is incredibly important.

[Bakercompany86]

For the record, I definitely wasn't trying to say DE was wrong all the time.

 

I meant that in reference to the fact that they admitted their fault about Harvester on LS20, and I certainly don't expect them to sit there and say "yeah we were wrong about this, this, and this".

 

 

 

Great post Blatantfool.

[Kaian-a-coel]

Maybe a weekly recap of what macguffins they worked on, with some solutions they came up with if it isn't just a matter of coding bugfix, but rather a feature tweaking (like that XP thread).

 

That would keep people happy I think. On livestream: "have you worked on mcguffin 53654 yet?" "No, but if you read the weekly recap you can see we've been busy with mcguffin 214 trough 8974, and 53654 is not scheduled for a couple weeks. We'll tell you when we come to it."

[LukeAura]

I can understand why they don't.  For one of us to admit we're wrong, nobody cares.  We're just individuals playing a game.

 

 

But for a company to admit they're wrong about something, especially on a consistent basis can be a damaging thing.

 

They admitted how horrible the harvester deal went on LS20.  That's pretty huge I think.

 

Would we as players care if they admitted they were wrong?  Maybe, maybe not.

 

Honestly I just hope that behind closed doors they are focusing a chunk of resources on solving this problem.  It's currently the biggest issue (in my opinion) and I think it is for a lot of Warframe Players.

 

I do have faith in them though.  Livestreams help, because you can read the body language.  I do believe they have a strong desire to really deliver that knock out punch, and give us all the game we hoped Warframe will some day be.  Even if they're not sure how to do that yet.

I'd like to think we as a community would be more forgiving of them than that. It does seem to be a quite common complaint around the forums that we aren't told enough, or we don't know when they've decided to turn over a decision. 

People seem to get angrier when they're left in the dark about errors. I for one would forgive them if they admit they screwed up. Actually I'd actively encourage them to try bigger risks knowing they may have to change them back in a month. One day wake up to a unspecified hotfix and now all shotguns have increased spread but improved falloff values, or certain projectile abilities or radial abilities no longer come from the caster but drop from the sky. I don't know, add a key to wallrunning that's less us go from vertical to horizontal or give us reduced shields but double health and add a mechanic to provide minor health regain, maybe enemies can drop health orbs too. Whatever, 

Give us a little message about it, but sure, why not. Let them get a little silly. The year of stupid ideas that may turn out to be totally awesome. 

...

Hmm, not quite as good sounding as the "year of yes" but I like it. It's probably also very unfeasible for them to do so, but I can dream. 

And Although I'm sure there is a lot of brainstorming going on to the Harvester problem there is probably a lot of thought going in to improving replayability beyond rewards over all, which will imo, reduce a lot of the grindy so that we actually feel like saying, "We'll get that when it comes to us." 

 

[BETAOPTICS]

Why did they encrypt the drop tables to begin with? Wasn't it because people were datamining them?

Why would DE be afraid of datamining? And on a related note, why did DE so promptly disable the StalkerHunter program that was floating around to try and spawn Harvester? 

These seems like sketchy things for a company to do. 

 

 

Because people were data mining the drop tables and there was an incident where DE was saying one thing was happening but it was found out that what they said was pretty much a complete lie. And I guess they didn't like being called out on that very much so they encrypted the data files.

This, though officially it was to protect the consumer base and the game from hackers such as event sabotage but it has been seen time and again failing to do what it was officially meant to do. There might also be the case of their bunkbuster program or others considering datamining cheating while no one in the community accused them from it, instead they were embraced from this because they were fair folk. Released all information and did not try to cheat, not one that I'm aware of.

[BETAOPTICS]

Good writers? They don't even need to hire them, they have hundreds of people ready to write lore and scenarios for them, and for free! Heck, a lot of us would pay for it even.

Yes, I mean why not to do a contest about writing a story, lore or any bit about it. It'd be a great way to make story, players would be involved in crafting the universe and they would get help from their devoted playerbase for free. How handy is that and everybody wins!

[General_Krull]

Maybe a weekly recap of what macguffins they worked on, with some solutions they came up with if it isn't just a matter of coding bugfix, but rather a feature tweaking (like that XP thread).

 

That would keep people happy I think. On livestream: "have you worked on mcguffin 53654 yet?" "No, but if you read the weekly recap you can see we've been busy with mcguffin 214 trough 8974, and 53654 is not scheduled for a couple weeks. We'll tell you when we come to it."

Yea I like that weekly recap idea. They could call it idea house, dev recap or maybe workshop. Oh wait...

[SpFinX]

You will never create a forum of peers by using any element of distinction, just as you will never create a forum of the mentally swift by allowing them to declare themselves. Think tanks work on invite-only basis, with preselections by people who have a good idea about who qualifies. Any openminded democracy when establishing a think tank sullies the results and efficiency.

 

 

I think you can drop it here. Your point is understood. This offtopic agenda does not further the ongoing discussion, nor does it help.

 

_

I trust most if not all have seen this document here at least once, correct?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlsyEla_uEOUdERwRURQYnA2cDRUZnVDTlUtOW4tV2c&usp=drive_web#gid=0

This is a tracker of all elements ever spoken of by DE in Livestreams. I suggest simply reading the entry for the first Livestream:

 

Ow wow. Be careful with such things. You know, when someone had reminded our goverment about some things promised by current president during election, adding a scan of paper list with that promises, that caused unpleasant reaction. Well, we aren't in some sort of country, aren't we? XD

 

Edit: By the way, my experience in NwN/ NwN online (sorry, i still have to play NwN2 somewhen later) shows that making a bet on player-created content can be a total win. Yeah, i know, that many of the best NwN modules weren't entirely written by  their creators, instead they are pen-and-paper AD&D games that are converted into virtual copies. Still, they (developers) got ENDLESS stream of new intresting, challenging and almost free content (few hired people that look through those modules to filter bad or trolling ones).

Stage creation engine of Warframe allows such things. Why do they ignore such a brilliant solution?

Edited January 16, 2014 by SpFinX

[f3llyn]

Yes, I mean why not to do a contest about writing a story, lore or any bit about it. It'd be a great way to make story, players would be involved in crafting the universe and they would get help from their devoted playerbase for free. How handy is that and everybody wins!

 

Not to be a kill joy or anything but there are probably a lot of copyright and legal issues why that will never happen. Unless DE is willing to employ everyone on the forums that is, which doesn't seem likely.

Edited January 16, 2014 by f3llyn

[-Eliminator-one-]

This letter is in no means speaking on behalf of all veteran players and not even all the veterans who I have been actively discussing these issues with over the past weeks. In time more of them will post their own letters outlying their concerns, but I assure you that many of the concerns listed below are shared by all.

 

 

 

Grind and Drop Rates

 

Beginning with Update 8 and the dojo resources, through the grind associated with obtaining the Burston Prime, (10 hours 50 minutes in my case,) and the yet too be obtained Detron, the grind in this game has increased to the point where even people such as myself who aren't opposed to grinding have already; or are very close to throwing in the towel. Your justification for encrypting the drop tables was that the codex would provide, in game what the data mined drop tables provided to players through third party websites. Sadly this is not the case.

 

The codex does not tell us which mods drop from which survival or defense mission or from which tier or faction. Data mined information did. The codex does not tell us which void mission type and tier requires to be played to get each Prime component. Data mined information did. The codex does not provide drop rates for anything. Data mined information did.

 

We require that you do as you said you would and have the codex provide us with the same information that was previously available to us. This way we can determine by the drop rates whether or not the item(s) we seek are worth the grind involved, and would permit the player base to give you feedback if it overwhelmingly believes the drop rates are too low. If you instist on maintaining that this game is still in Beta after you have over 4.5 million user accounts on PC alone, and have inked contracts with Sony, then treat us like Beta testers and give us enough information so we can give you informed feedback

 

 

 

Systemic Changes

 

Systemic changes like those to the damage and stamina systems need to be announced in detail prior to them being put into the game. This would have saved you from having to scramble to undo most of the changes to the stamina system when it was changed in ways no one in the player base expected and virtually no one liked

 

When introducing systemic changes like those to mods, damage, stamina, credits and the upcoming melee system, please do not release them too early. Please wait until Q&A has had adequate time to test them to be certain that they function better than the existing systems they are to replace. Continued tweaking of new systems is to be expected, but having the new system not functioning at least as well as the one it replaces does not benefit anyone.

 

 

 

Lore

 

You have been talking about adding lore into the game for nearly a year now. In the minds of most I've spoken to, 'lore' does not consist of stringing together a number of event descriptions and a couple of codex entries. Lore consists of a detailed and compelling story, whether it be a written story or a story campaign; of how the Tenno and their enemies (allies?) came to where we are now, and character development, so we are able to relate in some fashion the the characters we play as, and those who we fight against

 

 

 

Communication

 

For a studio who claims to want listen and talk to their players, evidenced by 1 to 2 live streams per week; we feel extremely underinformed when it comes to things like when the upcoming event will start and what the objectives of that event will be when it does. Cicero began at Midnight EST without any prior notice. For competitive players and clans this kind of lack of communication only fosters frustration and resentment towards DE when none need exist.

 

Before you make sweeping changes to the game like removing Infested from the Star Chart or putting Mutagen Samples only in the Derelict Void, you need to communicate your plans to the player base in some detail before doing so.

 

Patch notes need to be complete. At best they only contain 75% of the changes in each major patch

 

When discussing or previewing new additions to the game on the forums or on a Live Stream, please only discuss things that are going to be added to the game in a timely manner, (e.g. within the next two updates,) otherwise don't discuss or preview them publicly until they are. It only fosters frustration and resentment by the player base when you preview something and 6, 8, 10 months later it has yet to be added to the game.

 

 

 

Events

 

Competitive events (i.e. those with leaderboards,) need to be announced and thoroughly described several days before they start, so competitive clans and players can be prepared.

 

Competitive events need to last no longer than 3-4 days so the players who are competing don't risk their health by grinding too long. Individual rewards should require no more than 3 hours of game play during the event to qualify for, so that non-competitive players have ample time over the course of the event to play enough to receive them.

 

 

 

End Game Content

 

At this time the only end game content that exists in the game are Survival and Defense endurance missions lasting multiple hours where lag and drop in frame rate renders the game nearly unplayable. We need more challenging end game content that doesn't require sitting around for hours until it becomes challenging. I will leave it to others to outline what it could be, because I've heard many good ideas. But whatever it ends up being, something is desperately needed.

 

Whatever that content may be, it must be rewarding, but not in a way that you have to complete it in order to obtain a reward that can only be obtained by completing it. (i.e. Don't make it yet another excruciating grind.)

 

 

 

 

I write this letter because, I and many other veterans; some of whom have direct and regular contact with DE developers have repeatedly voiced our concerns on these issues, yet nothing has ever come of it. In fact, things have gotten worse than they were before.

Many veteran players have already left, and many, many more are on the verge of leaving if these issues aren't finally addressed. And if you read this and are thinking 'good riddance, we don't need them anyway,' then you're sorely mistaken. It's the veterans who run prominent clans, and teach the newer players about game mechanics like mod fusion, (nothing in game does,) how to play and proper etiquette while playing, and a host of other things. And if you intend to keep this game alive you want to retain all the veterans you can, and have as many new players in this game play long enough that they too become veterans, since the longer someone plays, the more chances you have to get them to spend money.

 

 

Thanks in advance for your time and consideration,

--collstro-- (Co-Founder of clans 'Spectres N7' and 'X Spectres')

 

________________________________________________________________

 

The following veterans agree in part or in full with this letter, and have given their consent to be listed as co-signers.

 

Knoth (Co-Founder of clan 'Spectres N7)

 

Lynches (Warlord of clan 'Six Feet Under' and Co-Founder/Manager of www.OrokinTech.com ) https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/161764-an-open-letter-to-de-from-your-veterans-the-megathread/?p=1904556

 

Rasputin29 (Warlord of clan 'Hattori') https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/161764-an-open-letter-to-de-from-your-veterans-the-megathread/?p=1911589

 

-Bellum- (Overlord of clan 'Hattori')

 

------Eliminator_One----- (Warlord of clan 'Iron Death Squad')

 

Bishuu (Kill LeaderBoard veteran of clan 'FTG')

 

Althix (Kill LeaderBoard veteran of clan 'Test Clan Please Ignore') https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/161764-an-open-letter-to-de-from-your-veterans-the-megathread/?p=1916159

 

Redragon309 (Warlord of clans 'AsurO')

 

Evangelyte (Warlord of clan 'Coup de Grace')

SwaggerMeistress (Veteran player of clan 'Coup De Grace') https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/161764-an-open-letter-to-de-from-your-veterans-the-megathread/?p=1904993

 

VegetableBasket (Overlord of clan 'Neuro')

AceViper (Winner of the Gradivus Event)

 

ThatDamnLobster (Warlord of clan 'Children of the Lotus')

 

KvotheTheArcane1 (Veteran of clan 'The Praetorii') https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/161764-an-open-letter-to-de-from-your-veterans-the-megathread/?p=1916838

 

Derclaw (Veteran player of clan 'DarkVector')

 

10er (Warlord of clan '1 Man Army Clan Gizeh')

 

911nsidejob (Co-Founder and Warlord of clan 'Dark Uprising')

 

RevoThornax (Warlord of clan 'Tenno Inc.')

 

Rottae (General of clan 'The Unstable Equation')

 

Zeus154 (Unaffiliated) https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/161764-an-open-letter-to-de-from-your-veterans-the-megathread/?p=1916195

 

Soulie (Co-Founder of clan 'X Spectres') https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/161764-an-open-letter-to-de-from-your-veterans-the-megathread/?p=1909369

 

LadyScootaloo (Founder/Representative of clan 'CMC') https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/161764-an-open-letter-to-de-from-your-veterans-the-megathread/?p=1917093

 

Kinjeto (Co-Leader of clan 'DoggHouse')

 

GhostRider (General of clan 'Full Metal Shinobi' and long time veteran of the Kill LeaderBoard)

Valiantz (Founder/Warlord of clan 'Full Metal Shinobi')

 

BraveDude8 (General of clan 'Test Clan Please Ignore')

 

Trainer772 (Kitty of clan 'Test Clan Please Ignore')

 

TDUMP (Veteran player of clan 'Crescent Moon')

 

Matto (Veteran player of clan 'Santaphrax Knights') https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/146359-de-disclose-the-rewards-now/

 

Exie. (General of clan 'Cutie Mark Crusaders')

 

My signature. Iron Death Squad agreed with your opinion.

[Blatantfool]

Maybe a weekly recap of what macguffins they worked on, with some solutions they came up with if it isn't just a matter of coding bugfix, but rather a feature tweaking (like that XP thread).

That would keep people happy I think. On livestream: "have you worked on mcguffin 53654 yet?" "No, but if you read the weekly recap you can see we've been busy with mcguffin 214 trough 8974, and 53654 is not scheduled for a couple weeks. We'll tell you when we come to it."

Yes. This is what I've taken to asking for more of. This is a place where some extra efficiency would go a long way.

For the record, I definitely wasn't trying to say DE was wrong all the time.

I meant that in reference to the fact that they admitted their fault about Harvester on LS20, and I certainly don't expect them to sit there and say "yeah we were wrong about this, this, and this".

Great post Blatantfool.

I'm aware you weren't taking a shot. I was just kinda rambling on a bit.

[Bazools]

Maybe a weekly recap of what macguffins they worked on, with some solutions they came up with if it isn't just a matter of coding bugfix, but rather a feature tweaking (like that XP thread).

 

That would keep people happy I think. On livestream: "have you worked on mcguffin 53654 yet?" "No, but if you read the weekly recap you can see we've been busy with mcguffin 214 trough 8974, and 53654 is not scheduled for a couple weeks. We'll tell you when we come to it."

 

Wait a second that sounds very similar to the Developers Workshop or is it just me wild guessing!?

Edited January 16, 2014 by Bazools

[Kaian-a-coel]

Not to be a kill joy or anything but there are probably a lot of copyright and legal issues why that will never happen. Unless DE is willing to employ everyone on the forums that is, which doesn't seem likely.

Not at all. Just like the weapon contest: they own the stuff, no problem.

Hek, they even allowed a 8-bit fangame to be made (still under heavy early work atm), as long as it's non-profit, and credit where it's due.

[Leth-Aonan]

 

 

Totally agree with you !!!

[Vishous]

I Fully Agree.

 

Vishous.

Member of Schattenrat.

[Magister_Zel]

Well now, look what this has become...Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

People love their warframe ;)

[-CdG-Chocolate_Cat]

Count me in! I'm in Coup De Grace and I made my account on 18 Feb 2013.Nearly playing this game for a year now.

[beol]

Grind and Drop Rates

..

Your justification for encrypting the drop tables was that the codex would provide, in game what the data mined drop tables provided to players through third party websites. Sadly this is not the case.

 

The codex does not tell us which mods drop from which survival or defense mission or from which tier or faction. Data mined information did. The codex does not tell us which void mission type and tier requires to be played to get each Prime component. Data mined information did. The codex does not provide drop rates for anything. Data mined information did.

 

We require that you do as you said you would and have the codex provide us with the same information that was previously available to us.

 

I would not find even this useful. The codex adds nothing to the game for me except a new system that is too tedious to actually use in any way. Information is the last thing that should be hidden behind a grindwall.

 

(I have not read most of the replies. My appologies if I'm beating a 20-page dead horse.)

[Chaosdreamer]

So many post , so many support and upvote still no DE to reply anything , even if DE said "message received" or something like that is ok even if they we dont care atleast we had knew they read it 

[matto]

They posted a note in the last update message, check the French thread I just made a translation again. (Update 11.7.0+11.7.1)

Edited January 17, 2014 by matto

[Tulzscha]

So many post , so many support and upvote still no DE to reply anything , even if DE said "message received" or something like that is ok even if they we dont care atleast we had knew they read it 

 

You might want to read back a bit, as Rebecca is aware of this thread (I can confirm this as I flag it for her attention too):

 

 She knows all about it. I've been bringing it up quite a lot.

 

Also, as per Hotfix notes 11.7.0:

 

"Just a note on the continued conversations in these forums - everyone that has asked questions, posted threads, and raised points about areas that need attention for this game to deliver on areas we have talked about for a long time. Overall, dev focus is very much on areas being discussed by our community (lore, new player experience, end-game & more)– more than it’s ever been, everyone knows we need it. Thanks for your continued patience as we work to deliver."

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/164093-update-1170-1171/

[General_Krull]

You might want to read back a bit, as Rebecca is aware of this thread (I can confirm this as I flag it for her attention too):

 

 

Also, as per Hotfix notes 11.7.0:

 

"Just a note on the continued conversations in these forums - everyone that has asked questions, posted threads, and raised points about areas that need attention for this game to deliver on areas we have talked about for a long time. Overall, dev focus is very much on areas being discussed by our community (lore, new player experience, end-game & more)– more than it’s ever been, everyone knows we need it. Thanks for your continued patience as we work to deliver."

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/164093-update-1170-1171/

We shouldn't stay quiet until actual change for the better is implemented. They have said that so many times before. Words are cheap.