Dps Numbers And Why They Ruin Player Experience

[Seanjuju]

Weapons that are fun but fall on their faces every time I use them become un-fun. Only top tier weapons are fun in top tier content.

[Blatantfool]

I agree with what you are saying. It doesn't affect those who don't care, but my point is simply that people tend to base their decisions and loadouts on weapons that are at the top of the charts. I understand the pleasure of mowing down hundreds of mobs with a single very powerful gun, but I wonder sometimes if things would be different if people didn't play the game based on numbers, but rather with what they find fun.

 

 

 The people who're playing the DPS Armsrace meta enjoy doing so 9/10.

 

 I participate and I enjoy it. When I'm bored of it I use something I would typically consider bad.

 

 

 In fact, I'd go as far to say that in this community the terms "Overpowered" and "Underpowered" have been extended to mean not just 'Too strong' and 'Too weak'

 

 But also 'Viable for high level scaling' and 'Not viable for high level scaling'.

 

 

Duly noted. My calculations were based off of the advertised numbers. As a safe estimate, consider 10% of the active players to be part of the metagame group.

 

  

That is fine. Just wanted to bring up that there has never been any proof of that many players having ever been around at once.

[sewens]

Right.. I was disagreeing with the OP's post lol.

 

Making the point that nobody is "pressured" into anything. If someone wants to do the most DPS then that's what they want to do. If they want to use a gun they love, then they will. I have never heard of someone that stopped using a certain gun they like because it does 5% less DPS. Any gun can be viable with enough formas.

 

The game does put pressure on the player though. Akin to peer pressure where you aren't being told up-front what to do. This same pressure is why players exploit.

 

People want to play new things. When they can't get to new things with what they have it frustrates them, so they go for the best thing that will get them where they want to go.

 

I've seen this in other games I've been introduced to where I might play for fun but someone else might know how to "rush" past major milestones quickly in the game using exploits or min/maxing and number work. A extreme case; One MMO (which I wont name) that a friend introduced to me has about 7 classes and milestones every 15 levels. It's balanced on paper mostly and 2 of the classes are commonly played by the "pros" because they take the least work and ingame money to build for the PVP and have the fewest drawbacks in the end. It also has a larger amount of grind than even warframe; the gap is commonly crossed by constantly playing and canceling a certain mission over and over. It's an exploit that players only take advantage of because most of the new content is endgame.

[bowiespoon]

the kogake, ragdolling supremacy

[Unagi604]

DPS numbers will disappear when every gun does the exact same damage and damage mods are removed.  As long as there is any variance from one player's gun to another, someone will figure out what does what amount of damage the fastest, whether it be in game as little numbers popping out of enemy heads, or online in some complex calculator.  Even if all guns were identical, people would compare each other's play styles to see who does more damage in the way they play.

 

If there is a problem?  It is the player.  You can't remove someone's desire to figure out how much damage they are doing by doing something to "fix" something in game.

[General_Krull]

They should probably make more viable weapons then instead of chosen few.

[Kato-san]

Balancing weapons does not seem that hard really, its just simple math. Calculate the attack speed, the accuracy, the range, how many enemies it can hit, the status chance and you then can have an idea of what the damage should be.

 

All weapons should not have same DPS because of all those factors I mentioned. But there still a lot of weapons that need balancing. I just curious if DE has a person that knows what they doing when they balancing weapons. Because some they come out with seems pretty bad like the tigris on its first day out, even after it got buffed it could still use a little more dmg.

Edited January 17, 2014 by MindlessWar

[ParadoxDreams]

While I see your points OP I don't think they are the problem, nor would removing the DPS value do anything. The damage and RoF will always have to be told to the player, and with those anyone can figure out the theoretical DPS of a weapon. Its just cutting out a step currently.

 

As for this:

 

 

Numbers aside I'm willing to bet the majority of the "11%" that focus on survival/defense, which usually has enemies going WAY past the normal max level, are the majority of the forum goers. I doubt most casual players go to the forums to do anything but look at patch notes and ask questions, could be wrong but that's the impression I have. 

 

I think the bigger problem is the fact people are calling survival/defense the "endgame" in a game that doesn't have a story or any set end point and isn't finished being developed. Most games have little to no endgame at release and we aren't even to that point yet. This "endgame" people are calling survival/defense is pretty much impossible to balance for past a certain point resulting in focusing solely on the few weapons (and frames) that have the most mileage. I doubt most people who don't focus on these 2 game modes really care about the highest DPS as long as they are having fun with what they are using. 

 

I think 3 things needs to happen. 1, DE needs to come out and say that survival/defense is or isn't the "endgame", or at least the planned endgame. 2, until DE confirms survival/defense is endgame the community needs to be responsible enough to not refer to these modes as endgame and demand day in and day out that content be balanced for the extremely high levels of play that are reached in these modes. (and the few players that reach those high levels) and finally 3, people need to treat this game like the pre-release it is, not a post release MMO that is largely a finished product with extra content being added.

 

Survival and defense are the "endgame" in the sense that once you've played a bit and have a frame you like and have ranked up as well as an arsenal of decent weapons and mods, these modes are the only ones that provide a decent challenge. In any multiplayer game like Warframe, I think the fun for most people comes from pushing the envelope, taking the skills and items you've gotten so far and putting them to the test against increasingly challenging content. Unfortunately, in the game's current state, there aren't other options for this.

 

Yes, this game is in "beta" and a lot of MMOs don't have decent endgame content at release. The problem is that it should be there by the time players can access it, and Warframe suffers from the double-punch that it's grind is short, so players hit the ceiling pretty quickly. Most games that rely on a PvE model have much longer grinds that give devs time to work on endgame content so that it's ready by the time the majority of players have made it to that point.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the fun of the game comes from the margin, those last 5 minutes in survival or last couple of waves in defense where you're getting through by the skin of your teeth is what I'm playing the game for at the moment. Everything else is sort of filler. Until other content catches up in terms of difficulty, survival and defense will remain the "endgame".

Edited January 17, 2014 by ParadoxDreams

[BadAimbot]

I believe that people who force other people to play the way they want them to play is wrong. However, I have seen many times that people will blame the tools that people use rather than the people themselves. If someone is telling you to stop using a gun because its DPS is bad you shouldn't blame the DPS calculations. If you want to use the gun despite its badness that's fine, and you should avoid people who are paranoid about minmaxing.

 

Alternatively, ask the devs to actually balance the weapons.

[ensignvidiot]

Personally I like using DPS as a tool

 

I will only use weapons that I LIKE to use, I don't care what is god tier and what isn't (but mind you, im not placing my Straith down any time soon)

 

For example, numbers wise the Paris Prime does more damage than the Dread... but I will always use the latter because I like the sound.

On that note, I will use the Braton Prime over the Soma because of the sound, and hate the Gorgon for the spin-up time.

The Dual Wipers does INSANE DPS when you twink it.... but I love my Vastos too much to care.

There are so many melee weapons that can outclass them, but I will use the Fang Prime whenever I go for stealth solely for their animation, and the time I put into it.

 

 

EVERY game is going to have people that Min-Max EVERYTHING. But ever game also has people like me, someone that wants to do the most with what they like to use.

 

Take the Vectis for instance, its the 'I win' button of sniper-rifle damage. But I will never remove the Metal-Auger on it because I colored the thing after the old M-98 Widow from ME2 and 3, which was my favorite sniper rifle to use on my infiltrator. I lose easily a few thousand DPS using it, but I find it awesome to pull these wicked triple headshots with one bullet.

 

The choice is and forever will remain with the player to use the information that is presented to them however they will

 

All of the weapons I previously mentioned I like using have several forma in them so I can flip-flip between builds I like using, with all of them built around a decent optimal back-bone.

 

DPS is a thing, its going to stay whether or not we like it or use it.

Edited January 17, 2014 by ensignvidiot

[(PSN)witch3rDC52]

As a more casual player, I have looked at the dps stuff, even though I am not sure what dps stands for.  Looked at some calculators and they are seem off compared to the information that the games provides.   Me, I like to build things so I read the wiki to see what they have to say about the weapon, what enemies they lean toward killing quicker and see if I currently have the mods to buff it up so I can go to higher levels.  Try it out and if I do like it, then I will potatoe it, if I don't then I won't.   

 

As I do try to play with other players, I don't need the fastest killing weapon, just hopefully a good combined set of primary, secondary and melee weapon along that I enjoy using as well as a warframe the works for me and hopefully that combination will help out in keeping the team out of trouble to finish a mission.   Not sure I will like the Soma though I am working toward it as I need points for mastery no matter what.  

 

Everyone can play what they want.  I currently am coming across a lot more bow players that have silent secondaries that destroy anything faster than my current primaries do.  Guess they have been playing for quite some time and enjoy trying out new weapons.

[ensignvidiot]

As a more casual player, I have looked at the dps stuff, even though I am not sure what dps stands for.  

 

DPS is Damage Per Second. In Warframe, its what a weapon will do on average between crits and reload times if all bullets hit center-mass. Or the average output of a melee weapon is you are spamming the melee key.

 

And its something that people use to gauge what they want over a lot of games. The whole thing and calculation can get complicated but know is just the Average Damage Output of a specific thing. And in Warframe Terms, its generally applied to a weapon with NO mods, and again when it has a Potato, a few forma, and max level mods.

[Rabidbluedeath]

Survival and defense are the "endgame" in the sense that once you've played a bit and have a frame you like and have ranked up as well as an arsenal of decent weapons and mods, these modes are the only ones that provide a decent challenge. In any multiplayer game like Warframe, I think the fun for most people comes from pushing the envelope, taking the skills and items you've gotten so far and putting them to the test against increasingly challenging content. Unfortunately, in the game's current state, there aren't other options for this.

 

Yes, this game is in "beta" and a lot of MMOs don't have decent endgame content at release. The problem is that it should be there by the time players can access it, and Warframe suffers from the double-punch that it's grind is short, so players hit the ceiling pretty quickly. Most games that rely on a PvE model have much longer grinds that give devs time to work on endgame content so that it's ready by the time the majority of players have made it to that point.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the fun of the game comes from the margin, those last 5 minutes in survival or last couple of waves in defense where you're getting through by the skin of your teeth is what I'm playing the game for at the moment. Everything else is sort of filler. Until other content catches up in terms of difficulty, survival and defense will remain the "endgame".

I'm not disagreeing with anything you posted. It's just annoying when people cry for balance on the "endgame" when the balance level DE has set is somewhere around the lvl 40 mark. And even more annoying when it doesn't seem to be what endgame will really be. It's not treated as "endgame" its treated as the real and permanent endgame. Every thread is "X is worthless compared to Y for Survival/Defense". I have yet to see a thread that complains about weapon viability in any other mode at max level, the level range DE wants to balance for. That's the wrong mentality to have, especially if not every player knows these aren't intended as the permanent endgame.

 

I completely agree that we need a challenging endgame to make the game last and add value after the initial grind, I just don't think Defense/Survival are that endgame. You can't really balance an infinite enemy progression mode with the finite progression we as players have. It also can't be balanced for the more damage oriented frames due to the fact their damage will eventually be worthless in those modes. I also think if the "endgame" decided by the community is going to get replaced with real endgame in a reasonable time frame trying to balance for higher levels is a waste of time and money that could be spent in other, better ways. We don't, unfortunately, have any sort of time frame though. :/

[OriKlein]

OP was TL;DR.

However, unless I am mistaken, the gist of this topic is to have DPS removed from game display as to "take one's mind off of DPS and let them experiment and see what works best for them, or simply just play with whatever they have fun of, since this is better for immersion and fun".

I may agree with the arguments, however, the counter-arguments are more logical;

DPS is an important piece of data which allows us to examine which weapons are broken and which are overwhelmingly powerful.

Should all weapons be made viable, then there will be no problem. People who tend to min-max will find the "one great weapon with the one great build", propagate and stick to it, anyway.

If seeing DPS, a statistic, breaks immersion then so is seeing any other one. By this trend, all item information save a short description should be removed entirely. Not a very good idea.

Best Regards,

[DecapitatingJim]

I've never followed meta.

Ever.

If a weapon looks fun, i'll use it, and i'll make it work.

Burston for life.

Pretty much what I do actually.

Wapon is fun I use it.

Braton for life! (Burston rocks too though).

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Funny that DPS is not what you always want. Sometime I'd take max damage per shot for ammo efficiency. Where's damage per shot/ammo efficiency chart anyway? As for the endgame argument developers pretty much confirmed - as noted above - that the game's balanced around max level of enemies you can found of the star map (40-50). Enemies that appear in defense/survival past certain point are simply broken. Also, took me some time to realize - there is no point in doing survival past 20-25 minutes or defense past wave 25-30. You get same loot, it just becomes harder and not really worth it.

Thankfully, since even with random people there's no votekick or any other abuse system you can use whatever you want. I sometimes take stuff like Braton. Or even MK-1 braton. Add maxed serration, a couple more mods, suddenly it's not AS bad as people make it out to be. Even though I'm past mastery 10 and obviously have stuff OP mentioned. I tend to not sell weapons, the only ones I let go is single pistols that I craft into duals, don't think there's a reason to won a single pistol if you have it, but times 2.

On a side note, for some reason everyone is rocking bows on PS4. Is there some kind of secret there? It's pretty much the most used thing (paris, paris prime, stalker bow). It started getting on my nerves, I've even started using bow myself to see what's so great about it... Now that's awful DPS but great ammo efficiency.

[Fretless]

There are many stats that DPS spreadsheets typically don't or can't take into consideration, like accuracy, projectile speed, spin-up time, maximum effective range, etc.  I think most players are aware of this, or at least quickly become aware of it once they have some hands-on experience with the weapons.  Most of the people who publish the lists seem to be aware of it too, as they usually make some form of disclaimer.  The only time I really see DPS numbers taken as gospel are in threads calling for nerfs or buffs to particular weapons.

 

[(PSN)Stinja]

 In fact, I'd go as far to say that in this community the terms "Overpowered" and "Underpowered" have been extended to mean not just 'Too strong' and 'Too weak'

 

 But also 'Viable for high level scaling' and 'Not viable for high level scaling'.

First up i'll say that i do believe weapons need tiers. You start with weak guns, find yourself getting overwhelmed as you progress thru the starchart, look for a gun which can handle things.

However once you get "to the end" it would be nice to have a plateaux, with a number of guns essentially all as viable s each other.

The current problem, for a casual player that wants to experience the higher end planets and T3 survival/def, is how do you tell if a gun is good enough?

I made a Flux Rifle and love it, but i dont have enough potatoes and forma to make it viable, hence its much "better" to use a Soma, which requires less mods, and is more versatile.

The system strongly encourages you to check dps to ascertain if the gun you like is worth a potato and 2+ forma.

Yes you can use any gun, but high dps definitely makes the game easier.

I mean you don't see crop farmers still using hand hoes or horse-drawn plows? Tractors and combine harvesters are "overpowered" but far more efficient if you want to make farming as profitable as possible.

[BadAimbot]

First up i'll say that i do believe weapons need tiers. You start with weak guns, find yourself getting overwhelmed as you progress thru the starchart, look for a gun which can handle things.

However once you get "to the end" it would be nice to have a plateaux, with a number of guns essentially all as viable s each other.

The current problem, for a casual player that wants to experience the higher end planets and T3 survival/def, is how do you tell if a gun is good enough?

I made a Flux Rifle and love it, but i dont have enough potatoes and forma to make it viable, hence its much "better" to use a Soma, which requires less mods, and is more versatile.

The system strongly encourages you to check dps to ascertain if the gun you like is worth a potato and 2+ forma.

Yes you can use any gun, but high dps definitely makes the game easier.

I mean you don't see crop farmers still using hand hoes or horse-drawn plows? Tractors and combine harvesters are "overpowered" but far more efficient if you want to make farming as profitable as possible.

 

What's worse is that we don't know the intended power level of any weapons. Maybe the Flux Rifle is supposed to be stronger than the Soma, but they haven't gotten around to changing it yet.

[Sixty5]

I used to like running calcs and stuff.

Nowadays I just run what I feel like running whatever feels right.

And at the moment that is electric proc builds.

[BETAOPTICS]

The problem strongly lies within the DPS having such a big emphasis on games these days. In the good ol' days there were lots of reason to not take the highest damage weapons and gear into this game. I know how it could be countered, it isn't perfect, not by a long shot but here it goes. Damage reflection enemy type or attribute. Ta-daa!

[General_Krull]

The problem strongly lies within the DPS having such a big emphasis on games these days. In the good ol' days there were lots of reason to not take the highest damage weapons and gear into this game. I know how it could be countered, it isn't perfect, not by a long shot but here it goes. Damage reflection enemy type or attribute. Ta-daa!

And people would avoid the faction with that enemy like a plague. They should add weapons with different and interesting mechanics like penta, stug, miter and dragkoon. Give each weapon different functionality instead of reskin after reskin. 

 

Weapons in this game are all pretty much the same with very minor difference when it comes to gameplay. I think that's the real issue, I would much rather have 20 unique guns than 200 guns that function the same with only different numbers.

[BETAOPTICS]

And people would avoid the faction with that enemy like a plague. They should add weapons with different and interesting mechanics like penta, stug, miter and dragkoon. Give each weapon different functionality instead of reskin after reskin. 

 

Weapons in this game are all pretty much the same with very minor difference when it comes to gameplay. I think that's the real issue, I would much rather have 20 unique guns than 200 guns that function the same with only different numbers.

No I was talking about how to make DPS less important, how to make people consider that rainbow builds might not always be the best choice. I admit ti though, I was in a hurry so if this topic was not about what I first read from the OP then this is very off topic.

Edited January 17, 2014 by BETAOPTICS

[(PSN)InstaShark]

lolsoma

 

I generally only use the Soma on the Orokin Derelict and Tower 2/3 missions because a lot of other guns just don't really make the cut IMO.

 

Otherwise, I like to have fun with the Paris/Latron Prime, Dera, Hate, etc. You know, guns people will neglect just to have a god gun in their hands for every single mission.

Edited January 17, 2014 by (PS4)InstaShark

[DragoXXVIII]

lolsoma

 

I generally only use the Soma on the Orokin Derelict and Tower 2/3 missions because a lot of other guns just don't really make the cut IMO.

 

Otherwise, I like to have fun with the Paris/Latron Prime, Dera, Hate, etc. You know, guns people will neglect just to have a god gun in their hands for every single mission.

 

like ogris sit back an enjoy the wtf face on the npc as they get blown to smithereens out of no where