The Perfect Way To Nerf Nova

[shut]

You seemed to ignored frost's problem. That's he need a buff. Because his snowglobe is the only thing that scale for him. Frost without snowglobe, what does he have? 

 

Nova is not only suck at solo survivability, do you know why in survival, they preferred a nekros rather than Nova? And Nekros is a weak frame too. 

Why is it in defense, people preferred frost instead of Nova? 

Why not many play Nova for nightmare even though she can play it with "team"? 

Why is it in infest def, vauban always prefered than Nova? 

Is she really good at everything beside solo? really? 

- Frost needing a buff is irrelevant to this discussion. As much as I agree that he needs changing, my point with Frost was that you can't judge a Frame's capabilities by sticking them in a single situation.

 

- In Survival, Nova isn't very desired because she leaves no bodies to Desecrate. Had it not been for that, she'd be right up there on the join-us list with Nekros, and, even with that issue, she's still a top-tier Survival candidate because of how quickly she can produce oxygen.

- Missions have roles that need filling. Frost fills a very tight but important role (Globe), while Nova fills a broader role that is nearly as important (kill stuff fast before it gets to the pod). Both are necessary.

Frost is naturally built for Defensive play. Him being a slightly higher priority than Nova in that particular role doesn't magically make her any less powerful than she is.

- People don't do Nightmare with Nova for the same reason that they don't do Nightmare with Volt, Nekros, Excalibur, Mag, Banshee, Ember, Oberon, Nyx, and Saryn. It's simply a badly designed mode that is horribly imbalanced between Frames.

- Again, roles. Vauban has a specific defensive role, while Nova has a broader offensive role. Both are necessary.

 

So is she good at stuff besides solo? Yes. Yes, she is.

You seem to be trying to make it look like she's bad at everything, when she really isn't. Her only true weakness is, as I mentioned, the intentional low solo survivability.

[-CM-Syein]

I know. And she's supposed to be.

I'm not saying that they need to nerf her survivability, you know.

 

 

 

Those, my friend, are examples of Frames having slight flexibility outside the general focus of their concepts.

- Trinity is still a support frame no matter how you build her. Offensive support is still support.

- Rhino's nerfing is debatable. Personally, I'm against it, since his abilities are nowhere near as gamebreaking as Nova's (under most builds, anyways).

- DPS implies that Nyx kills things faster. That's not the case. Also, having crowd control doesn't necessitate a nerf.

- Mag's 2nd ability doesn't recover HP.

 

 

 

No. No, it is not.

High-level survival and defense is challenging because enemies scale to levels beyond what the devs ever intended for them to scale to. There's more to the game than just T3 Wave 100 Defense and Survival, you know. Veteran players only stick around here so often because it's the only thing that provides a challenge.

 

 

 

Support abilities = abilities that help the team, yeah.

Nova is top-tier in mobility, crowd control, burst damage, and map-clearing, with one weakness to show for it. Do you really think that she needs to be an expert in support on top of that?

1. If she is supposed to be fragile, oh, so you admit that's she fragile now, ok. 

 

2. Offensive support is still support? I'm against Rhino nerf as well, but personally, I got a reason why I always choose him to do run more than Nova. Because it's convenience. Nova is game breaking? So you saying only damage is game breaking. 

Another copy and paste: "everything is an issue if you look at things at low level range. So basically anything, any aoe, any ults. Now, not only frames, even weapons can do it. Penta, Ogris, ignis, etc " 

Damage is not everything in the game you know. 

 

3. Is people only looking for the kill amount and the damage chart in statistic. What's the differences between crowd control and damage that CC don't need to be nerf but damage need? They both help the team. So can you explain what you said? 

 

4.it doesn't recover HP, but it recover shield, Nova doesn't have those sort of recovery. 

 

5.I don't even mind lvl 100 here, I'm in game right now, wanna go a run with me, you can go on Nova and I'm on any frames but Nova. To se who damage more and who survive more. Yes I mean it. If logic doesn't work here then we just got to test it ourselves. 

 

6. umm CC, damage, and map clearing is considered support, so what other support are you talking about? And map clearing only apply for low level. Rhino is CC, damage, and map clearing as well, his buff is only a support. Trinity having offensive power if people build her right, and you still said that's a support? If that's it the case isn't Nova the same? 

[shut]

1. If she is supposed to be fragile, oh, so you admit that's she fragile now, ok. 

Wh-- I've been doing that since the start of this discussion with you! Repeatedly!

 

 

She literally has one downside, that being her low base defensive stats.

she's a glass cannon.

- Again, survivability is meant to be a downside. Nova's SUPPOSED to be among the most fragile of all the Frames.

Nova sucks at solo survivability. 

 

 

Since you clearly aren't reading what I'm trying to say, there really isn't much point in continuing this discussion, since it's evidently going nowhere.

[Ekaterinanl]

You know how do I see your "nerf Nova"? Here are some demonstration: "Chaos affects more enemies than my Terrify, nerf it", "Invisibility is longer than my Smoke screen, nerf it". Whoever said Nova can 1 button kill level 70 enemies please give me a 5 sec video to prove your statement. 

[-CM-Syein]

- Frost needing a buff is irrelevant to this discussion. As much as I agree that he needs changing, my point with Frost was that you can't judge a Frame's capabilities by sticking them in a single situation.

 

- In Survival, Nova isn't very desired because she leaves no bodies to Desecrate. Had it not been for that, she'd be right up there on the join-us list with Nekros, and, even with that issue, she's still a top-tier Survival candidate because of how quickly she can produce oxygen.

- Missions have roles that need filling. Frost fills a very tight but important role (Globe), while Nova fills a broader role that is nearly as important (kill stuff fast before it gets to the pod). Both are necessary.

Frost is naturally built for Defensive play. Him being a slightly higher priority than Nova in that particular role doesn't magically make her any less powerful than she is.

- People don't do Nightmare with Nova for the same reason that they don't do Nightmare with Volt, Nekros, Excalibur, Mag, Banshee, Ember, Oberon, Nyx, and Saryn. It's simply a badly designed mode that is horribly imbalanced between Frames.

- Again, roles. Vauban has a specific defensive role, while Nova has a broader offensive role. Both are necessary.

 

So is she good at stuff besides solo? Yes. Yes, she is.

You seem to be trying to make it look like she's bad at everything, when she really isn't. Her only true weakness is, as I mentioned, the intentional low solo survivability.

Produce oxygen? loki, ash, valkyr do it better, heck Nova can get kill while activate that life support. Why are you compare a frames that mainly for survival and def to Nova, whose main power is damage and nuke mobs? 

All the frames that you list are frames that many had made a buff thread for, Despite that, they all had their specialist, mag is corpus specialist, ember's accelerant scale with her fire weapons and fire abilities, Volt go synergy with synapse and ability to buff speed of his whole team, Saryn just suck, Banshee's sonar is damage and she's one of the frame who need buff the most (remember when I said the current Banshee is like Nova without her slow debuff?) and etc, they got their specialty. Can Nova's 2nd skill blind mobs like excalibur? it's a temporarty stun with less energy cost than m-prime. 

Yes, frames are imbalance, but they got 1 or 2 specialist things that Nova don't have. 

Why do you think 4 different frames always better than 4 novas in long survival/def run? 

[-CM-Syein]

Wh-- I've been doing that since the start of this discussion with you! Repeatedly!

 

 

 

 

Since you clearly aren't reading what I'm trying to say, there really isn't much point in continuing this discussion, since it's evidently going nowhere.

Because despite you admit that she is fragile, you made a contradicting points by saying let nerf her. Which is why I said what I said.  

And you seem to ignore my "let go do an experiment together", now who's ignore who. 

[VKhaun]

I got a better perfect way to nerf Nova.

Buff the rest of the frames.

 

Agreed.

 

Why not just buff other Warframes and make their abilities useful and scale well? Nerfing Nova does not fix nor improve anything in the long run. 

 

 

These quotes are from the first page, but this is a recurring theme in the thread about buffing rather than nerfing.

 

The problem with buffing frames is not simply that the game is too easy, we can always make harder content if we're comitting to power creep. I don't like power creep, but power creep isn't a thing because it's hard to do. It's a thing because it's EASY to do and commonly done. The game being made easier doesn't hold anything back.

 

 

 

The problem, aside from power creep, is that it's a co-op game with no structure.

 

You can not balance one enemy to be fought by people who can do +9,000% damage combining four awesome damage buffs from your hypothetical buffed frames, and still be balanced when fought by four people who did not bring any damage buffs. Can't be done. A disparity of over 9,000% will always either be trivially easy to the damage team, or absurdly impossible for the non-damage team. If you somehow mandate that teams MUST bring damage buffs, damage buffs are now meaningless because they are the norm and baseline for balance rather than a buff. It just doesn't work.

 

We can't go handing out MPrimes left and right. We need focused debuffs like Shield Polarize or Accelerant, and we need conditional damage buffs like Sonar. Waving a magic wand and getting 50% slow, +200% damage, and massive stacking chain AoE's is just silly.

 

IMHO, MPrime needs to only trigger explosions if Antimatter Drop kills the enemies.

MPrime = priming matter.

Antimatter drop = Antimatter.

Matter + Antimatter = BOOM.

 

EDIT--

Maybe also her #1?

Edited January 27, 2014 by VKhaun

[shut]

These quotes are from the first page, but this is a recurring theme in the thread about buffing rather than nerfing.

 

The problem with buffing frames is not simply that the game is too easy, we can always make harder content if we're comitting to power creep. I don't like power creep, but power creep isn't a thing because it's hard to do. It's a thing because it's EASY to do and commonly done. The game being made easier doesn't hold anything back.

 

 

 

The problem, aside from power creep, is that it's a co-op game with no structure.

 

You can not balance one enemy to be fought by people who can do +9,000% damage combining a ton of awesome damage buffs, and still be fought by four people who did not bring any damage buffs. Can't be done. A disparity of over 9,000% will always either be trivially easy to the damage team, or absurdly impossible for the non-damage team. If you somehow mandate that teams MUST bring damage buffs, damage buffs are now meaningless because they are the norm and baseline for balance rather than a buff. It just doesn't work.

 

We can't go handing out MPrimes left and right. We need focused debuffs like Shield Polarize or Accelerant, and we need conditional damage buffs like Sonar. Waving a magic wand and getting 50% slow, +200% damage, and massive stacking chain AoE's is just silly.

 

IMHO, MPrime needs to only trigger explosions if Antimatter Drop kills the enemies.

MPrime = priming matter.

Antimatter drop = Antimatter.

Matter + Antimatter = BOOM.

 

EDIT--

Maybe also her #1?

 

EDIT: I think that limiting M Prime detonations to her other abilities would be a bit harsh, given the rough scaling with higher-leveled enemies, but that aside, I agree wholeheartedly. xD

Edited January 27, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Ekaterinanl]

 Waving a magic wand and getting 50% slow, +200% damage, and massive stacking chain AoE's is just silly.

 

 

Bro, have you ever seen chain AoE in any Corpus lv 35+? Infested, maybe if you have enough Blind rage and Focus, Corpus, no. I'm not flaming you but I have my Nova and I know what she's capable of, she's my favorite frame but I find myself using Nyx more often in longer run.

[-CM-Syein]

-everything is an issue if you look at things at low level range. So basically anything, any aoe, any ults. Now, not only frames, even weapons can do it. Penta, Ogris, ignis, etc 

Did anyone notice that Frames that not on par with Nova are often those having their power NOT scale?

Why is Nova, Rhino, Nyx, Loki, Trinity etc, are considered useful for end game? Because their power scale. Yes, Nova dps is above all, but she is a damage frame.

So what? You wanted all frames to have the same damage power? If that is the case then we don't need any combination of frames being group together.

So basically 4 lokis, 4 trinities, 4 novas, 4 rhinos etc can just finish the missions for a long period of time without even need any other frames.

This is a game where one frame good in this area and the another good in other.

Trinity is best for support/ heal, Frost/Vauban/ Nyx for def, Rhino for tank, and Nova is damage.  That's their role.

 I really love the ignorance of people who only concentrated on damage, damage, and damage, without considered other areas of the game.

If damage is everything, we wouldn't need missions such as defense and survival.

In my experiences, power that doesn't scale doesn't last long in survival and def. Eventually it'll become completely useless. Volt, Saryn, and Ember are such frames.

 Just because a frames is considered no fun at low lvl, doesnt mean that frame should be nerf. And this is something people need to keep in mind. I could spam ember WoF in low lvl mission and kill every mobs in my way faster than Nova. Because Nova power is stationary/ no duration, while ember's power is mobility/ effect by duration, so talk about low level- mid lvl, anyone could spam.

 -Range is not an argument, here's why: Range contributed differently to different frames.

Nyx's chaos, Rhino's stomp, shield polarize etc all had the same range as molecular prime (25)

Range can be a disadvantage. Can you imagine a frost having 25m range for snowglobe? How can he protect himself with that ridiculous range while his power is solely for def?

Vauban's range affect his power strength to hang mobs, so having range doesn't mean it will give him absolute advantage.

Some abilities doesn't required range, trinity's blessing, renewal, rhino's roar etc, such power had no need for range, it immediately effective no matter where you are. Basically, infinite range.

Given m-prime with such dps, she still die a lot in some situation where some frames are totally at ease. Loki's invisibility and ash's smoke screen are such example.

Why is she not a top pick for nightmare mission? Answer is quite obvious

Why is she not a top pick for solo? Obvious answer.

 

And as I said before, when you compare something, you don't compare only damage. Did you read my post where I said: what if a rhino had the same dps as Nova? A tank, good in survival, low lvl and mid lvl can't get past iron skin (2nd skill), high damage buff, and now what if you add Nova's dps in Rhino? Now what about giving Nova's damage to Trinity? Ok that sound so ridiculous, but is it sound ridiculus on Nova? I don't think so.

 Yes, Nova's power is for end game.

However, her survival/solo/def abilities are not for end game. There are tons of other frames that could do survival/ solo/ def way better than Nova.

 Trinity's support ability/ survival is for end game | Likewise, Nova is for damage

Rhino's nuke mobs, and his dps buff is for end game| likewise Nova is for damage

Mag's power scale against corpus, she is better at dps and survival against corpus better than Nova, Mag is for corpus at end game| likewise Nova is for damage.

Frost/ Vauban is for infinite def until limited, so their def abilities are for end game| likewise Nova is for damage.

In a game, things that blinded people are damage.

If I ask majority of players regarding what char they would choose in game. They will likely ask something similar to this: "What char deal the most damage?" without any regards for the char's survival abilities.

If we take one thing to balance the other out, weaknesses made up for one strong point. It is balance.

Nova just happened to be that damage frame.

 

I try to summarize most of my point, it still end up so long

Beside, are we even reach end game yet? This is still in Beta isn't it? My...

 

and no one take on the experiment of going to survival run together to see who's better. Isn't it because deep down inside, Nova can't match other frames in that aspect.

 

If an arguments doesn't come at a conclusion, the only choice is to experience it ourselves. I'm available, I'm open, who'll go with me. 

[Nobbins]

You people are just jealous

The question is : why do you want to nerf something ? are you just jealous ?

 

Get a load of these guys.

 

http://i.imgur.com/V9WFnf5.png

 

Totally jealous.

 

Anyways, no matter how it shakes up, -50% movement speed on all enemies in range for 30 seconds in no way counts as a trait belonging to the DPS class. Pretty good chaining damage, alright, that's acceptable. +100% damage debuff on all enemies? At least it fits under the DPS umbrella. The movement speed is completely unneccassary, and takes nova's ult from a damage ability to a king-of-all-trades ability, able to half most enemy's DPS while boosting her team's twofold.

 

Power creep is detrimental to the health of any game, so rather than crank every warframe up to the point where specialization is essentially moot, why not lower a few frames down -- specifically Nova, in this case --  and bump a few of them up.

 

As for the fragility associated with Nova, hey, that's actually her downside, and essentially the only one. Her teammates, optimally, will help her out with that. She doesn't need to be able to half the DPS of her enemies in lieu of that. Warframe's a co-op game, at its core.

[DaveC]

3.Another argument: "she slowed everyone in level up their stuff", apparently this is how exp mechanic supposed to work (copy and paste from wiki)

• Suppose Player A kills an enemy with his Warframe ability, and the enemy was worth 500 experience.
• His Warframe will receive the full 500 experience, while his weapons receive none.
• His teammates will receive 500 experience each: 125 to their Warframe, 125 to their Primary, 125 to their Secondary and 125 to their Melee.

You love quoting people, but you said it yourself, you didn't bother to look up what I said. When arguments are made you nit pick specific word, not points and make an argument about things not central to the discussion. The guy earlier talking about his gorgon and it not being worth playing if Novas going to go in and clear everything had a great point...Nova wasnt fun for him. BUT, lets take experience and the specific examples you have given.

You are on Xini, because it's a small map and it's harder for the highly speedy Nova, to run off and nuke everything out of the range for shared XP. Your playing Defense, not survival, because when ranking a frame, it's nice to be able to have an exit point every 5 waves, especially if the frame is quite low level.It also allows you convenient points to strengthen your frame as it ranks. I think this is probably a normal approach to ranking for a lot of players. In addition, it would be unusual to go in with 3 unranked weapons and an unranked frame.

1. Any defense has a set number of enemies per wave

2. Shared XP is distributed as 25% to your frame and each of 3 weapons.

3. If you kill with your frame you get 100% XP to your frame

4. If you Kill with a Weapon you get 50% to the frame and 50% to the weapon

The above is how experience works...

So you have a new Warframe (unranked) and decent weapons (fully ranked), you want to quickly rank your frame. You join Xini. You know that as the waves pass the enemies scale up and you get more and more XP. You decide to stay as long as you can handle.

Scenario 1: In that Xini defense you have a spammy Nova, using MP for all it's worth every few seconds and teleporting across the map to ensure everything is lit up. Every time they all go bang, or groups of them go bang, you get 25% of the available XP (unless you happened to shoot one which set off the bang, then you get 50% of XP for that 1).

Scenario 2: This time you have No Nova, there might be other frames using their Ulti, or Killing stuff as always and you get the 25% of XP....but, if you kill stuff with your warframe ability, you get 100% of the XP, if you shoot it you get 50% of the XP all to your frame. The big difference is, this time you get a chance to shoot it, you get more chance to kill it with a warframe ability.. Your going to get a lot more kills (and their XP) directly attributable to you ...oh and Xini is a lot faster with no Nova, because they don't get "stuck" and slowed.

Plus the thing that makes Nova so bad in scenario 1, is that Molecular prime is very quick to cast indeed, has a huge AOE, can be recast while still in effect (so wormhole across the map and recast) and can have a really low energy cost allowing spammability like no other. Once MP is cast and those enemies are lit up, it doesn't matter how they're killed or go bang, the XP goes to the Nova. This will quite effectively happen on Xini for 30+ waves and long after you left with your "still" relatively unranked frame

If you are ranking a specific weapon, it's the same problem and this is the XP issue that the Nova players don't want you to think about.I've played over 1300 hours and from personal experience, if you want to rank or re-rank a frame or specific weapon...you really don't want a Nova on the team.

P.S. There are some situations where having a Nova doesn't negatively impact you e.g. where everything you have is unranked...but then it doesn't matter whether you have a Nova or not.

[LukeAura]

 

Nova is not only suck at solo survivability, do you know why in survival, they preferred a nekros rather than Nova? And Nekros is a weak frame too. 

Why is it in defense, people preferred frost instead of Nova? 

Why not many play Nova for nightmare even though she can play it with "team"? 

Why is it in infest def, vauban always prefered than Nova? 

Is she really good at everything beside solo? really? 

Because Frost can infinitely protect a pod. 

Because Nightmare is broken, and leaves any frame dependent on abilities useless. Really shouldn't be considered as this discussion is more about the power of her ability M prime to her effective defenses. If you're going to say she isn't broken because there is a game mode where she can't at all use the ability, it's kind of avoiding the actual argument. 

Becuase Vauban can infinitely protect a pod.

You only need one Vauban or Frost in defense. The next frame called for is usually Nova. 

just saying, because one frame can break a game mode does not say anything about any other frames level of power. 

 

[-CM-Syein]

Because Frost can infinitely protect a pod. 

Because Nightmare is broken, and leaves any frame dependent on abilities useless. Really shouldn't be considered as this discussion is more about the power of her ability M prime to her effective defenses. If you're going to say she isn't broken because there is a game mode where she can't at all use the ability, it's kind of avoiding the actual argument. 

Becuase Vauban can infinitely protect a pod.

You only need one Vauban or Frost in defense. The next frame called for is usually Nova. 

just saying, because one frame can break a game mode does not say anything about any other frames level of power. 

 

So you know that each ability had their own contribution. Nightmare is not broken when it is one of the challenge part of the game, and player still able to finish that mission. 

The actual argument of mine is , there are situation she can't do and other frame can, so she is not broken, because she is a frame that depend on other frame for that. It's give and take. 

The reason why people complain about certain frames in the first place is because they "compare". 

Now, Nova, Rhino, Trinity, Vauban etc would be fine frames if there are not many frames weak compared to them. 

 

Frost snowglobe and vauban's bastile is for defense yes, but it can be use in other situations as well, likewise, Nova's power. 

[Paradoxbomb]

Was not aware that power duration had no effect on M Prime :/

 

Anyway I say just remove the slow effect and keep the double damage and explosions, the slow effect should go to a frame where it would make more sense and who could honestly use it more, like, I don't know, Frost, or any frame that should specialize in crowd control?

Edited January 28, 2014 by Paradoxbomb

[LukeAura]

So you know that each ability had their own contribution. Nightmare is not broken when it is one of the challenge part of the game, and player still able to finish that mission. 

A lot of frames are power dependent for their defense. Nightmare robs them of powers by imposing an energy drain. If you're going to make an argument about tools, it should be in places where every tool is allowed to use its whole functionality. 

Being able to finish something does not mean its mechanics aren't broken.

 

[DaveC]

I notice Sieze deleted his post about experience and didn't answer mine...as usual. The other problem is people focus around a number of issues regaring the Nova frame, without understanding the implications.

1. She is not OP at hi levels A: No shes not, but neither are other frames, the problem is that the levels at which Nova ceases to become OP are very high indeed. Even then her ulti is worth casting, which is not tru of many other frames. Saryn at very hi level, ulti is worthless, same with other frames. if they can be cast, they only have 1 useful effect. Rhino stomp at hi level, is only useful for 8s of crowd control. Novas ulti will still massively debuff and massively slow AND can be cast again before previous one has worn off.

2. The level of content at which Nova ceases to be unfun for others, by making them feel useless, is so high that in most Normal games, the average player is subjected to a fairly mundane experience

3. The "Glass Cannon" argument A: this is just a silly argument, because Nova has better protective stats than some frames e.g. Vauban, but she has 3 things which massively increase her durability. Firstly her slow reduces incoming damage by 50%, her speed allows her to avoid a lot of damage, lastly wormhole is a great escape route. Take Vauban on a grineer or corpus defense/survival, hes weaker than Nova, slower and dies much easier. Bastille and Vortex do indeed hold enemies, but the others shooting at you soon bring you down.

4. Nova helps you rank your stuff A: well if you believe that, your math is bad. You will rank a warframe or single weapon much faster with no Nova in the team. This is a fact!

5. Most frames only have 1 or 2 abilities worth equipping. All of Novas abilities are worth equipping. Most ultis do only one thing. Novas ulti 200% damage debuff for 60s, 50% movement speed reduction for 60s, chained explosions which do 1600 damage because of the debuff. Take Rhino a frame people say is OP Stomp lasts about 8s, it holds enemies for 8s and it does about 800 damage. It doesn't debuff, and it doesn't slow for 60s and it cant be recast until 1st one has finished. If Rhino wants to add a damage debuiff, he has to use another ability, Roar, which certainly doesn't last for 60s like MP.. Rhinos roar only boosts damage by a laughable 50%, not Novas 200% and only for 15s, not 60, with 50% less range than Novas ulti. This is just 1 example, using a comparison against a frame like Rhino that people think is OP.

6. Lastly Nova has an energy pool so hi in comparison to many other frames and her abilities are affected so little by certain dual stat corrupted mods, that these can make the situation even worse, if it could be any worse.

All of this makes it a terribly unbalanced frame and can really put off new players. Many players then start to aspire to Nova and play nothing else when they get her...which will eventually ruin the diversity of the game. I see an average (i use average, because often i see 2 or 3 Novas) of 1 Nova every game I play Now, if you do the statistics for this, it means Nova is played 25% of the time. Which isn't good when there is roughly 17 warframes and a high proportion of newer players won't have a Nova!

I have said what could be done to balance Nova, but as always it's taken very negatively by the Nova players.

2 things I want to see to balance Nova and bring her a little more into line with other frames

1. Shared kills when warframe ultis kill enemies (this just elicits the changes in how people play) and makes new players happier

2. Not being able to recast prime until effect of previous prime has finished or all affected enemies are dead. For this to be successful the duration of prime will have to be reduced (which it should be anyway). I would think a hard 15s would be right. I would also love to see kills by the warframe ability ONLY give shared Warframe XP, in the same proportion as the shared kills. If weapon XP is wanted, stuff has to be killed with...well weapons, believe it or not.

With Molecular Prime No nerf to the bangs, no nerf to the slow no nerf to the massive debuff or the very large range . It becomes the same as the majority of other ultis (not spammable every few seconds). I know, I know saryn can spam every few seconds, but low energy pool, high cost, poor range and lacklustre damage make this unimportant on a frame that's hardly used.

Somehow, even this doesn't seem acceptable, it should be, but it's not. The players who use Nova most of the time, want to keep the frame ridiculously overpowered. I am not even suggesting Antimatter Drop be touched, which all Nova players say is the OP skill that should be Nerfed....oh no, I am only suggesting the MP be changed. We can leave AD exactly as it is...so how can it be a nerf.

Usually how all these threads end, is the Nova players start making yes no insult comments, this starts a back and forth that gets the thread locked...which is what they want to happen. Nova is the elephant in the room that they want us all to ignore

Edited January 27, 2014 by DaveC

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Remove the explosion.

Remove the damage.

Remove the effect.

Remove the animation.

Remove her 3 and 4 abilities and replace them with Null Star.

That's better and more fun, right?! 

 

Don't nerf her.

She is a GLASS cannon. Her weak shields and health are made up in Offense. She is balanced. All the other frames are broken.

This. I own every single frame and I don't like using Nova. Never liked glass canon archetype. What I have to say, she's one one of few frames that works. Nova, Rhino, Loki, Vauban, they work. Saryn, Valkyr and some other desperately need some buffs.

I myself like Nekros and Rhino better. Always loved being invincible and summoning minions. As well as looting.

Just have to wonder why so many people want to break Nova? She's only useful if she can slow and kill enemies all around. If she couldn't she's be a straight up liability for the team, useless. Like Valkyr.

[LukeAura]

I'm going to ask a strange question to the 'keep Nova as she is' people, although any one can answer this, and I hope people can respond appropriately.
What is the baseline of usefulness for Nova's abilities? 
Now, let me explain what this means. 
How weak can the current effects of her powers be and yet you could still call her useful, no changes to her abilities, just straight up number nerfs. This has nothing to do with whether or not she needs a nerf. But how nerfed her numbers can be, and you who like her as is would still find her playing more or less the same. 
Let me give some examples. 
Reducing the MP slow effect to 25% from 50%. Is this still an effective slow at this level? Or will it not even matter? What about 15%? 
What if wormhole only warped Nova 35 meters instead of 50? Effective long range travel anymore? Or not even worth the slot/energy? 
AMD now only gives a 250% percent multiplier instead of 400%. would you still use it as an AoE damage amp or just go back to using your guns? 
Mp has its range reduced to 18, is it still an effective mass debuff?

Remember, this has nothing to do with needing a nerf or not. Just the absolute bottom line of the effects her abilities produce being in any way significant. And please, don't say "nothing she is fine as is", that's not the point of this question and I'd highly doubt you'd find her completely ruined if anything was weakened even by 10%.  
Thank you. 

 

[Vaskadar]

1.) Take away the speed reduction utility of it.

2.) Make it have a chained explosion instead of an instantaneous boom.

3.) There you go. Her ultimate no longer overlaps/outdoes others at this point in time.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Vaskadar

[Cwierz]

1.) Take away the speed reduction utility of it.

 

This.

 

There is no reason for her to have speed reduction, however there are legitimate reasons for a damage multiplier. Hell, half the time when I talk to novas they don't even know that M Prime slows, and when I say it should be removed they get all defensive about it.

 

In fact, I am beginning to wonder if it really just is people being allergic to the word nerf, because that almost seems like it.

 

 

People just don't understand what kind of impact this has.

 

For anyone who doesn't know what this does, or wants a visualization for either side of the argument, go to a t3 void defense with a weapon that fires similarly to a regular units weapons ie: A strun wraith, a soma, something bullet based. Now, go stand on an ice pad, and without leaving it go try to kill a couple heavy units. Observe the effects to your movement speed and rife rate, along with reload rates. Now try casting a couple powers on that pad, and observe the effect. Once you have done so you should have a fair understanding of what the slowing does. 

[Nobbins]

I'm going to ask a strange question to the 'keep Nova as she is' people, although any one can answer this, and I hope people can respond appropriately.

What is the baseline of usefulness for Nova's abilities?

 

This is a good question. I'm not a Nova user, mostly. I tend towards Frost, but I have 30'd her and occasionally take her on runs.

 

For MPrime, I'd say:

 

damage from 800 -> 750 ( Because her ult definitely needs damage. Nuker, etc. )

 

slowdown from 50% -> 0% ( Yeah, don't really need this, at all. )

 

damage multiplier from 200% -> 125% ( It's nice to have, but not necessary. Definitely tone it down some. )

 

cast radius from 25m > 20m ( Needs some distance to work, but 20m should be enough for most cases. )

 

explosion radius from 15m -> 10m ( think, even with 10m, you still have a 20m diametre, and cover a volume of 4188 cubic metres )

 

 

Sure, it'd be a lot weaker, and a bit more situational, but it'd still work, and dish out some nasty damage.

[Vortok]

The debuff(s) on M Prime is part of what drew me to Nova over another frame. That and Antimatter Drop. Wormhole too, but pretty rare for it to be useful.

If I had one complaint from playing Nova so far, it would be that M Prime is effective at killing stuff with no effort put into the (damage part of the) skill for too many levels. Been farming Casta (Grineer, so some are actually resistant to Blast damage) with only 65% Power Damage (Max Overextended + a 25% Focus to offset it) and it generally kills those level 30 enemies fine. Not only did I not increase the damage from the base amount, I actually lowered it. Outside of long defense missions (why bother outside the Void?) and Survival - a small portion of the game - enemies don't level too far beyond that. I should at least be expected to amp the Power Damage by that point if I want to keep one shotting waves of stuff.  At least with Rhino his base level Iron Skin starts getting burnt through quite fast by enemies of that level if you try to face tank them.

There is the point to be made that you can't spam M Prime on a group of enemies to kill them though, like you could with say Rhino Stomp, Crush, Overload, Reckoning, Avalanche etc for more damage. So where an energy efficient setup on another frame can just hit their Ult again, Nova can't. Still think that's fine given the debuffs it applies - and she has Antimatter Drop which takes a bit of effort to use well.

I kind of wish skillful usage of Antimatter Drop set the great Nova players apart from the decent ones, but M Prime does so much damage for so many levels that by the time the damage drops off her Ult, you generally either have everything perma CC'd, you're perma Invincible from a Trinity, or you're hiding in Frost's fortress of solitude - all of which give you all the time in the world to dump ammo into the orb and lazily direct it towards stuff you want dead.

All that said, plenty of people find nuking giant waves of enemies fun... and nerfing fun is silly. We are playing a game where Vauban makes an entire faction helpless, Frost stops 90% of the other two factions, and Trinity does what Trinity does. Overpowered is... kinda a thing.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Vortok

[-CM-Syein]

I'm going to ask a strange question to the 'keep Nova as she is' people, although any one can answer this, and I hope people can respond appropriately.

What is the baseline of usefulness for Nova's abilities? 

Now, let me explain what this means. 

How weak can the current effects of her powers be and yet you could still call her useful, no changes to her abilities, just straight up number nerfs. This has nothing to do with whether or not she needs a nerf. But how nerfed her numbers can be, and you who like her as is would still find her playing more or less the same. 

Let me give some examples. 

Reducing the MP slow effect to 25% from 50%. Is this still an effective slow at this level? Or will it not even matter? What about 15%? 

What if wormhole only warped Nova 35 meters instead of 50? Effective long range travel anymore? Or not even worth the slot/energy? 

AMD now only gives a 250% percent multiplier instead of 400%. would you still use it as an AoE damage amp or just go back to using your guns? 

Mp has its range reduced to 18, is it still an effective mass debuff?

Remember, this has nothing to do with needing a nerf or not. Just the absolute bottom line of the effects her abilities produce being in any way significant. And please, don't say "nothing she is fine as is", that's not the point of this question and I'd highly doubt you'd find her completely ruined if anything was weakened even by 10%.  

Thank you. 

 

what will Nova do vs lvl 30+ mobs without her slow debuff. Since people already know that her chain explode no longer working the same point when Rhino's iron skin no longer working as well. 

Gun is always preferred over abilities, did you know that once gun is nerf, that's the same as nerfing m-prime as well? Since m-prime required using gun to kill mobs in order to activate the damage. 

Worm hole doesn't worth the slot since it cost very high energy, and only useful for straight direction map, I only ever see Nova use it when she go to extraction, or travel in long distance, not as an ability to help escape. Rip line or super jump is more favorable in my opinion, and I'm willing to trade worm hole for it. 

Not many people use AMD mainly for the fact that, it's slow, it doesn't have exact target indication, required you to stay in certain position, required you to aim at it. It's like a sniper but 10x slower. 

M-prime had the same range as Rhino stomp, mag's shield polarize, Nyx's chaos etc, as I already explain Nova is not the exception to having that range. 

The point is not: "I don't find it ruin with having her power weaken", the point is "why having her power weaken in the first place when it being use to execute nicely for high lvl missions"?

[SolarDwagon]

One comment I would like to make, is that if MPrime *is* to be nerfed in some way-which I must admit, there have been some suggestions that would not make me overly unhappy, which I will list in a moment-ADrop needs to be smoothed out, and targetting of it needs to be made far more consistent, and, really, the thing where having more than one at a time completely screws with targettting is plain out annoying. Fix that, give her a reliable DPS ability, then will I allow you to nerf.

Now, as to the ideas which have a) made sense, and b) not gone overboard on reducing power level;

1) No recasting Mprime until it has worn off all targets.
This is potentially a very large nerf in itself, as targets can often find themselves lost in a corner somewhere... and now you can't find them. Coupling this with the second nerf would actually make this part of it less painful.

2) Making duration scale, and possibly reducing the base duration.
60 seconds is a VERY long time for a debuff. I can't think of any other frame, unmodded, that can do this. However, given that it still needs time to be useful-since you have to shoot it to gain much benefit-I would advocate for a time of no less than 30 seconds, and possibly even close to the original 60 seconds.

3) Small reduction in damage-one that I have not seen suggested very much.

 

Notice neither of these buffs actually affects the base numbers on the MPrime. I have chosen these because once you start playing with those base numbers, you will have nerfed Nova well out of top tier. As has been said, Nova is a very vulnerable frame, especially if you don't invest in survivability mods because you want your powers to work well.

"But you SHOULD be using Redirection AND Vitality."-I'm sorry, why are you making an argument that a frame should be judged off compulsory usage of mods? Anyone who uses such an argument is advocating terrible design, and should remove themselves now. It's nearly as bad as the "Just use Rhino" answers I see on threads discussing enemy crowd control skills.

Finally, as someone who has a "good" Nova, I play Trinity almost exclusively now that I've finished levelling frames. Why? Because she is God. Nova may be God's lightning bolt, but Trinity is truly the God. Why does nobody complain about Trinity? because she doesn't do anything flashy. She keeps you alive, but that's all people see. In fact, half the time, people don't notice blessing at all, because they never noticed they were taking hits badly. Yet, I consider my Trinity to be far more game breaking than any Nova I have ever seen, in actual effect. Where am I going with this? My parting statement.

 

Think about why you want nova nerfed, and think properly.