De, I Don't Think You're Understanding The Point Of Situational Damage Mods.

[Kyte]

This is based on what you talked about in the Livestream about situational damage mods and removing Serration.

Basically, situational damage mods are only useful if there are no straight upgrade mods to compete with. This is why, in the original question, ideas for situational damage were tied with "removing Serration". Right now, no situational modifier will beat Serration/Barrel Diffusion/etc, so adding Yet More Mods that nobody will use (because Serration is better) will just serve to dilute the drop pool. No matter how cool you think such mods can be, they will rightfully be considered "useless" in the face of Serration and cousins.

[Ground.Zero]

But... they stack, so I see no issue?

[VKhaun]

That stuff about removing serration was a tie-in by Reblotus.

 

The conditional damage mods were from my question and that question was entirely separate.

 

I don't intend that they replace Damage / Multishot, I intend that they replace rainbow damage and crit builds taking over balance discussions, by creating POTENTIAL for greater DPS than rainbow if conditions are met. Headshots, successive hits without missing, unaware targets, etc. This makes DPS a discussion instead of a calculation.

Edited February 8, 2014 by VKhaun

[xRufus7x]

1 they could stack with seration

2 you could give them lower power requirements or higher pecentages than seration

[Ameretat]

People complain about lack of choice, so they add mods to diversify.

 

People then use the most powerful build, and will complain when it's removed (serration being the 'it') making the choice more tempting.

 

Seems like a no win scenario.

[Alaizia]

This is based on what you talked about in the Livestream about situational damage mods and removing Serration.

Basically, situational damage mods are only useful if there are no straight upgrade mods to compete with. This is why, in the original question, ideas for situational damage were tied with "removing Serration". Right now, no situational modifier will beat Serration/Barrel Diffusion/etc, so adding Yet More Mods that nobody will use (because Serration is better) will just serve to dilute the drop pool. No matter how cool you think such mods can be, they will rightfully be considered "useless" in the face of Serration and cousins.

...removing Serration was a joke dude.

[VKhaun]

People complain about lack of choice, so they add mods to diversify.

 

People then use the most powerful build, and will complain when it's removed (serration being the 'it') making the choice more tempting.

 

Seems like a no win scenario.

 

Basically this. People will whine and call it a nerf to every gun, and in the end it won't change anything. They'll just put some other +% damage mod in it's place. We need alternatives rather than additives. 

[Hixlysss]

People complain about lack of choice, so they add mods to diversify.

 

People then use the most powerful build, and will complain when it's removed (serration being the 'it') making the choice more tempting.

 

Seems like a no win scenario.

It depends on which one is the majority and how much of a majority.I for one would like to move away from the wonderful "Stack damage = win" thing we have going on.

 

That stuff about removing serration was a tie-in by Reblotus.

 

The conditional damage mods were from my question and that question was entirely separate.

 

I don't intend that they replace Damage / Multishot, I intend that they replace rainbow damage and crit builds taking over balance discussions, by creating POTENTIAL for greater DPS than rainbow if conditions are met. Headshots, successive hits without missing, unaware targets, etc. This makes DPS a discussion instead of a calculation.

I was hoping that the physical damage system they implemented would replace rainbow damage builds, it didn't because the mods are literally inferior to the elemental damage ones.

[VKhaun]

It depends on which one is the majority and how much of a majority.I for one would like to move away from the wonderful "Stack damage = win" thing we have going on.

 

I was hoping that the physical damage system they implemented would replace rainbow damage builds, it didn't because the mods are literally inferior to the elemental damage ones.

 

Doesn't matter. If elements were +30% and physicals were +200% nothing would change except the procs. DPS would still be the only goal of 99% of the player base because you can fill your entire gun with damage mods. We need alternatives not additives and multiplicatives.

Edited February 8, 2014 by VKhaun

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

Meh... I don't want any more bane of mods... Even with a,b,c, configs I'm not here to be a mathematician and here to enjoy shooting stuff. This doesn't mean that I don't know how to mod, as my maxed arsenal would show. It would really disrupt the flow of this game if we ended up with 5 factions and 5 "bane of" mods and a damage 3.0 complete with an encyclopedia of resistances, etc... Taking 20 minutes to gear up for a 10 minute mission would really defeat the purpose of this action orientated game.

I'm not saying to dumb down the game, but don't over complicate it either.

[LukeAura]

I actually made a post a little while ago about situational/conditional mods. 
I think the issue between them and serration is more that currently situational mods sit at 30%, 50%, 20%. While Redirection, Serration reaches massive values. 
You can still have serration, Redirection, etc. But things like Aviator need to be a lot stronger than them to be worthwhile. 

[Firetempest]

I actually made a post a little while ago about situational/conditional mods. 

I think the issue between them and serration is more that currently situational mods sit at 30%, 50%, 20%. While Redirection, Serration reaches massive values. 

You can still have serration, Redirection, etc. But things like Aviator need to be a lot stronger than them to be worthwhile. 

This.

Its all backwards. Good for absolutely everything mods should be lower. While situational mods to extremely high.

[ValhaHazred]

I'm personally for removing Serration and making elemental mods only use the highest elemental damage and only stack in that they give the better procs. Example +50% fire + 20% toxin = +50% gas.

Then completely rework scaling again.

I like the idea of armour still scaling high, but not counting weakspots at all. Skill should matter more, not just who can trick their gun out to do 10000 damage per bullet.

[Rekkou]

Warframe is a weird game where you have a level system yet it doesn't have a conventional stat upgrade for each level up.

 

Serration actually should be a basic level up upgrade built in every weapon. While mod act as accessories to improve or change weapon's performance.

[ValhaHazred]

Serration actually should be a basic level up upgrade built in every weapon. While mod act as accessories to improve or change weapon's performance.

Yeah, that's cool too. They actually did that in closed beta, more or less.

[sewens]

I think nothing's wrong with serration, or modding guns in general. The entire mod system seems to be built around modding guns. The problem lies with modding melee and frames since some melee weapons can't be saved even with a tater and forma, and frames have several necessary mods like serration with no space for "fun" mods like maglev or the stamina mods.

[CloudPies]

If they remove serration, I demand my 1k+ cores and 1mil+ back...

Edited February 8, 2014 by CloudPies

[VegetableBasket]

frames have several necessary mods like serration

I can't tell if you don't know what you're talking about or just put a typo.

Serration has no logical place in the mod system, it is a requirement to make guns viable, it does not change the way you use weapons or make them interesting or unique or diverse like mods should.

It would be better if serration was removed, if multishot used 3x your ammo (or something to balance it), if the reload speed/clip size/etc mods were buffed to the point where I'd consider using them, if the elemental combo mods didn't stack their damage bonuses (I thought we were getting rid of rainbow builds?), so on and so forth. Heavy caliber is decently balanced but aside from that there really is no reason not to just max out your DPS, and the current mod selection gives no real motivation to do anything else.

But to answer OP's point, if there was a mod that did 200% bonus base damage on headshots, I'd use it instead of elemental mods or whatever else. As long as it provides a better benefit than the generic damage mods it will be worth using and require a change of playstyle. That would be healthy for the game and raise the skill ceiling a bit. How can you say no situation mod could beat serration or barrel diffusion? I mean what if the mod made you do 300% base damage on prone enemies? That would be better as long as you played in a way where you knocked lots of enemies over (ground pound melee attacks, banshee's 1, etc), just a random arbitrary example, but still, I'm not sure how you're getting that literally nothing could beat 165% base damage...

Edited February 8, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[Temfist]

they could just raise the other damage mods overall number totals, making it very viable to pick up mods for weapons that already excel in a damage type rather then just slapping on Pressure Point/Hornet Strike/Serration.

 

like if the Smite Grineer did like, up to 200% bonus damage on grineer at max level, but costed as much as a max serration, that would force players to kinda, pick one of the two, unless they forma'd the weapon a bunch. also, it would make it less viable to make "everything" rainbow builds, cause the resistances might not matter if you using a weapon for faction specific purposes. such a strategy could make weaker weapons much more viable with the right mods, and end game weapons would feel more end game when modded properly, or could simply be modded as a "versatile" weapon to fight all factions with etc.

 

this kinda thing may require them to change how armor works again, or other factors, to make it work, but there are lots of methods here that DE could try out.

 

ultimately, the only thing we can do is test whatever changes they make, so they can adjust things more and more until a compromise on balance is met.

 

I for one, think that it'd be fine if they just made things like "Serration" function like a "Weapon Aura Mod". you would have a 9th slot for weapons that could use mods called, "Weapon Class mods", where they make the weapon excel at one specific damage etc. if you put Serration/Hornet Strike etc. in that slot, your weapon gains bonus damage on everything evenly, but if you put a "+360%" version of "Saw Tooth Clip" instead, your  weapon now is super specialized for Infested and still works on Grineer to an extent etc.

 

the same could go for Melee, "Weapon Class Mods" would be "Pressure Point", "heavy Impact", "Sundering Strike" etc. This would allow you to do a rainbow build, and use some of those utility mods you have never used before like "Finnishing Touch" on your charge attack weapons with knockdown, and we could get new melee mods, like ones that alter the attacks properties of your weapons, like mods that increase the effects of knockdown/Crowd Control or mods more corrupted mods like larger AoE on jump attacks, lower damage on jump attacks, and more damage on jump attacks, less weapon reach etc.

 

They could even start adding weapon ability mods, but that might be overly ambitious right now.

 

anyway, these are all just ideas I'm forming off the top of my head, but yeah, there are lots of things they could try in the future. until they do though, we need to give them ample feedback on what we currently have in game.

[Wahooo]

I bet the Auto-Install would use them.  So they must be good right?

 

 

If they remove serration, I demand my 1k+ cores and 1mil+ back...

I think that goes without saying and really needs to be thought of as a given so the rational discussion of the role of base damage mods can continue.

 

Really it would seem that the last few livestreams this has been brought up it isn't just a joke but something that DE really nervously laughs about.  Like the like the idea but honestly fear for their lives to even mention it.

 

If you were to ignore what went into maxxing serration, then think about the mechanics.  The argument to get rid of the base damage mods just makes too much sense.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Wahooo

[Tulzscha]

Moved to the proper section.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

1 they could stack with seration

2 you could give them lower power requirements or higher pecentages than seration

This. Other mods are dead because nobody will take +30 slash damage over maxed/closed to max serration.

Make it +200% slash damage and suddenly it's a viable mod! Not for every weapon though.

[LazyKnight]

 No matter how cool you think such mods can be, they will rightfully be considered "useless" in the face of Serration and cousins.

A lot of the mods are useless just when measured on their own merits. Situational useful mods like heavy-impact (just an example of something that only effects one thing) are only useful when falling, and only one or two skills give you altitude.  These mods that are only good for one type of event and are pointless in everyother part of the game outside of their effect.

 

Most of these utility mods should not be mods in the first. They should be part of a skill tree for warframes and weapons because their effects can be purely cosmetic.

 

They have made too many mods for too few slots, and with many mods never being useful. The 15% more status effect mods is the pinnacle of worthlessness, and it only gives some weapons as much as 2% more status chance, I can see why it's unused.

 

The weapon mods that are for melee finishers, and stamina shouldn't be mods; the same can be said about the mods for melee that fit in warframe slots, and why were they ever made into mods in the first place. This is something that should have been added to core gameplay mechanics and not as some tagalong mod that most people will vender.

Edited February 8, 2014 by LazyKnight

[sewens]

I can't tell if you don't know what you're talking about or just put a typo.

Serration has no logical place in the mod system, it is a requirement to make guns viable, it does not change the way you use weapons or make them interesting or unique or diverse like mods should.

It would be better if serration was removed, if multishot used 3x your ammo (or something to balance it), if the reload speed/clip size/etc mods were buffed to the point where I'd consider using them, if the elemental combo mods didn't stack their damage bonuses (I thought we were getting rid of rainbow builds?), so on and so forth. Heavy caliber is decently balanced but aside from that there really is no reason not to just max out your DPS, and the current mod selection gives no real motivation to do anything else.

But to answer OP's point, if there was a mod that did 200% bonus base damage on headshots, I'd use it instead of elemental mods or whatever else. As long as it provides a better benefit than the generic damage mods it will be worth using and require a change of playstyle. That would be healthy for the game and raise the skill ceiling a bit. How can you say no situation mod could beat serration or barrel diffusion? I mean what if the mod made you do 300% base damage on prone enemies? That would be better as long as you played in a way where you knocked lots of enemies over (ground pound melee attacks, banshee's 1, etc), just a random arbitrary example, but still, I'm not sure how you're getting that literally nothing could beat 165% base damage...

 

Serration is usually the first mod you get on a gun yes? It's a mod that gives a straight damage upgrade; it's a necessity.

 

Now for your frame: Do you like not dying? You need shields! You need health! Armor too! Now the D polarity is your best friend unless you're rhino or have invisibility. Rush, Retribution, Vitality, and Vigor will be on every one of your frames at least once, just as Serration is on every gun.

 

 

I think serration is there so that players don't have to constantly buy Lato LVL1 and sell it for Lato LVL2, Lato LVL3, and so on as it's been in other games. I'd be fine with removing serration only if weapon damage scaled as you level weapons. (+90% damage at level 15 of a weapon and +175% damage at level 30)

 

People who payed money for a maxed serration might have a problem with the removal of it though. Plus blaze is pretty much serration #2 for shotguns.

Edited February 8, 2014 by sewens

[Bibliothekar]

I was hoping that the physical damage system they implemented would replace rainbow damage builds, it didn't because the mods are literally inferior to the elemental damage ones.

And to top this whole charade off: Rifle physical damage mods give +30% for 9 energy. Pistol physical damage mods give +60% for 7 energy. (Same thing: Barrel Diffusion maxes out at 120% for 11 energy, Split Chamber maxes at 90% for 15 energy. I can't even get 100% multishot chance on my rifle, whereas there are two multishot mods for pistol that add up to 180%. The heck were you thinking there, DE?)

With my current best loadout (****Supra and (scrap that star, I checked again and it hasn't seen a single Forma yet) Akbolto, both with 'tater), I can pump out more damage with my secondary than my primary weapon. And other than Serration, I don't even have Hornet Strike maxed out yet. 

 

... "Weapon Aura Mod" ...

I like this idea, that sounds really great.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Bibliothekar