Feedback On The Endgame Concepts, And Why Livestream 22 Got Me Interested In Warframe Again. (Nugget Is Being Positive?!? :o )

[Luminati07]

Right, so, the "Endgame" concepts are now officially released, and not just leaked on Reddit, so I can give my feedback on them

 

Posting this in GD for 2 reasons.

1. Didn't really think the feedback sections were appropriate, seeing as this isn't feedback for anything in the game.

2. This thread is mostly for discussion.

 

Update 12 is out, and honestly, I couldn't care less.

I've read about the content and problems it brought, and it didn't pique my interest at all.

However, a watch of Livestream 22 was enough for me.

 

If there's any formatting/spelling/stupid issues in the thread, please let me know. I did kinda rush this one.

 

Focus

First and foremost, Focus. Seems appropriate seeing as it's the furthest along in development.

 

Out of the three Endgame concepts, this is my second "favourite".

While I don't like the idea of a "beastmode" that can only be activated once per mission, I do like the idea of trees that allow you to customize your Warframe.

No longer will my Excalibur Prime be exactly the same as every other.

 

However, my big issue comes from the idea of 'once per mission'.

Will the passive areas of the Focus trees only become active when in this mode? Will the actives be justified by the limited times you can use them?

 

To me, I'd much rather have these trees as a way of permanently customizing my Warframe. Not customizing it for the couple of minutes I'll use it per mission.

I'm all for this special mode that you can enter, however, I am skeptical about how the passives work.

To me, it just wouldn't be worth it if the customization only happens once per mission.

 

It'll be interesting to see how this one unfolds.

 

Proxy War

Bleh. My least anticipated "Endgame" idea.

 

I already loathe the idea of battlepay, invasions and siding with factions, so it's only natural that this concept sounds terrible to me.

 

However, the idea of bringing the clan together to increase favour with a certain group (The Oracles sound like my kind of faction. Couldn't care less about assassins/Grineer/Corpus), especially when you can receive cosmetics exclusive to that faction.

 

My big problem with things like this (and I have this issue with every MMO with faction allegiance) is faction hopping.

I know that gaining favour with one faction reduces favour with another, meaning you'll need to build it up in order to change.

But, to me, if it's that easy to swap factions, I just don't see the point.

 

In my opinion, any game that introduces any kind of allegiance system needs to make the choices meaningful, and to me, that means bringing some semblance of...Permanence to it.

Choosing a faction is nothing but "Oh, that sounds cool" unless there's any sign of a permanent choice involved.

 

I don't think that you should immediately be locked into a certain faction once you ally with them, however, I believe that after hitting a certain amount of favour, you have to pledge allegiance to increase it further. Once you do this, it becomes very difficult to faction swap.

 

I want to look at the anime 'Attack on Titan' for a minute. (one that I recently watched. As should everyone else)

The Military Police Brigade

The Garrison

The Survey Corps

 

These are the three divisions that trainees must choose between after their training.

Each has their own uniform, emblem and role.

Just by watching the series, you can understand that it's important choice for the characters.

This is how it should be in Warframe. Please, no faction hopping.

 

The other idea behind factions opens up set reward ideas. Cosmetics.

Let's say there's...10 ranks per faction (Just some random favour numbers I thought up

These rewards would be set in stone, and the same for each faction (except cosmetics), to prevent players flocking to the one with the better stuff.

DE would probably release randomized rewards in between, though.

 

Rank 1 - 10 Favour

Reward - Access to Faction attacks.

Allows the player to complete special missions to attack the opposing faction.

Oracles = Assassins

Grineer = Corpus

 

For the Assassins/Oracles, this would require new enemy types, which is what I hope DE is working on anyway.

 

Rank 2 - 20 Favour

Reward - Access to Faction Alerts

Gives the player access to complete special alert missions only available to members of their chosen faction.

 

Rank 3 - 30 Favour

Reward - Faction Shoulder Badge

Gives the player an exclusive badge to show their support.

 

Rank 4 - 40 Favour

Reward - Faction exlusive mod.

A specialty mod only awarded to members of this faction.

 

At this point, you will receive a prompt to pledge allegiance to the faction

If you do not accept, you will not be able to progress further in this faction.

If you betray them, and join another, you will lose your badge, the mod will become unusable, and you will lose access to faction alerts/attacks.

 

Rank 5 - 50 Favour

Reward -  I dunno, use your imagination.

 

Rank 6 - 60 Favour

Reward - Access to the Faction's home base.

Remember the relays from the livestream?

Similar to that, but it's a relay for your chosen faction's members only, special missions can be accessed here

 

Rank 7 - 70 Favour

Reward - Faction Syandana

An exclusive Syandana to show your allegiance to your chosen faction.

 

Rank 8 - 80 Favour

Reward - Faction Exlusive Mod 2

Same idea behind mod 1, just a different one.

 

Rank 9 - 90 Favour

Reward - Faction Shoulder Badge 2

A badge only given to high ranking members of a particular faction. 

Fancier than the first one.

 

Rank 10 - 100 Favour

Reward - Faction outfit.

A special cosmetic only given to players who have achieved greatness within their chosen faction.

 

Hell, this is turning into a fan concept now.

You get the idea.

 

No, or minimal, faction hopping.

This is my least anticipated endgame idea, but it also has a tonne of potential to be great.

 

Badlands

First off. Hate the name.

 

Anyway, this is the "endgame" concept that I am most looking forward to.

 

Allying with other clans to build our own Solar Rail, defending it from threats, contesting over other clans' Rails sounds like fun to me.

It sounds like it will bring a nice element of competition to the game without introducing pure PvP.

Sure, Warframe is a PvE game, but competition is still welcome.

 

Honestly, not much else to say here.

Out of the 3 concepts, this one sounds the most interesting and fulfilling.

 

My Worries for Endgame

Now that I've gotten all that out of the way, it's time to express the worries I have for these concepts.

 

The big thing is that they don't sound like endgame. At least, not by my understanding.

 

To me, these don't sound like the truly challenging gameplay that I've come to expect from MMORPG endgame.

To me, these 3 concepts just sound like content. They sound like great content. But not endgame.

 

In my opinion, I think these would be better off being described as content aimed for older players, but not truly endgame.

Why? It seems like Focus is the only one that actually matters in regards to your level.

 

The others sound clan based, which is awesome. But, again, it doesn't give off the impression that it's true endgame.

 

All in all, these 3 ideas sound like great pieces of content that will keep many players interested, but not something that players used to traditional endgame can relate to.

 

New Lobbies/Relays

These things.

That 30 second video in the livestream was enough to pique my interest in the game. Truly.

 

It's nothing more than a quality of life improvement, but that sort of thing can go further than any sort of content can.

 

Having a hub like this which allows players to socialize with each other and start missions is a @(*()$ excellent idea.

 

I know Warframe isn't an MMO by traditional standards, but a community hub like this would go miles in keeping players interested.

What do I do after playing dungeons or questing in Final Fantasy XIV? I sit in town talking to friends.

What do I do in Warframe after playing missions? I exit the game. Why? Because the dojo doesn't feel like a true community hub, and talking in text chat gets old.

 

I really hope that DE has some serious expansion ideas in regards to these Relays, and not just a room with a window and a place to start missions.

 

These could add some serious gameplay opportunities and more things to keep players interested.

 

NPCs - Bear with me. I don't mean some random guy standing in the same place forever just muttering words to players.

I mean NPCs that make the Relay seem like a living place. That is one major thing games can do that keep you interested.

 

Why did I love Guild Wars 2 so much? It sure as hell wasn't the gameplay. It was the fact that the world felt so alive.

Why did the stations in Metro 2033 feel so alive? Because of the sense of community among the NPCs. There were always things going on, those stations felt so alive it was almost scary.

 

These NPCs in each relay could also add to gameplay. There could be exclusive missions associated with each one (Story missions, anyone? NPC mission chains?). Hell, imagine having Darvo appear in a Relay and offers players his exclusive alerts.

I'll let your brains run wild in regards to this.

 

Minigames - We've all seen 'em in other games.

Mini-games.

Some fun things to do in your downtime.

 

I know lots of people would be against this sort of thing. But, I want to ask you this, why so serious?

I don't mean stuff like Musical Mushrooms (anyone?)

But, things you could just organise with players at the Relay.

Obstacle races, each Relay has its own unique track

Target practice, competitions with other players to hit moving targets

 

Hell, make it crazier than that. Tenno Olympics.

 

Nothing wrong with bringing some light hearted fun into the game.

 

Overall, the 30 seconds video of the Relay was enough to get me interested again.

As long as they are more interesting than a single room, you're golden.

 

But seriously, try to make these places seem alive, not just a dead zone with a bunch of players standing around.

 

_______________________

 

That's all I have for now.

Hope you enjoyed this unnecessarily long thread.

 

*Edit*

Even though badlands sounded the most interesting, I think it also has the most potential for failure.

Why? Clan sizes.

When Steve was asked about the issue of small clans, all he really had to offer was "They can ask big clans for assistance".

 

Riiiighht.....

If that is the extent of the Badlands endgame offered to smaller clans, you may as well just wipe them off the map.

Personally, I think that Ghost clans should only be able to see Ghost Clan Rails, Mountain Clans can only see Mountain Clan rails etc. etc.

 

That's not without issues though. Then it's really just limiting the concept.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Nugget_

[Kamal965]

The relays do need to be a place that's alive, rather than the tea-bagging galore I suspect it'll become -- even if it was only called that jokingly in the stream.

[OriKlein]

Who are you and what have you done with Nugget?

[Althix]

you see Nugget this Bad Lands idea is gonna be a content generated by players. When rest of two is just ordinary grindfest from the look of it.

 

Let say i don't care about this Solar Rail wars, can i expect that developer will provide enough challenge and entertaiment for another two end game options?

 

Also as Steve said "intrigue" about one Clan building Solar Rail in secret. It looks like he do not understand that WF is not EVE online. And you can't just go in 0.0, -. To look for titans being build, to scan each angle of 360 in order to find shipyard, to bring fleet to bear and destroy this shipyard with a titan before he came alive.

There is no intrigue because you can't prevent other clan or alliance to build this thing. Gradivus Dilemma is an example of how fast a node can fall.

 

So for a content generated by players, this bad lands idea is very bad one. It's some sort of pvp through pve. I mean... come on.

Because of:

- numbers

- i don't care

- time zones

- hey guys we go and bbbbbslap this rail.

also: taxes - really? taxes. taxes should be my motivation to destroy this thing. taxes. alright. (no wonder they made frost useless.)

and also: can i design this Rail by myself? <- this is important.

 

that focus thing - i was hoping it's gonna be good old passive skills, but nope - here is your "omgpwng" button. /facepalm.

 

factions: you know i doubt you can join one faction or another, because you know - you are tenno and stuff. kinda...

so - basically all these "end game" stuff is not very endgame for me.

 

However after interception game mode... maybe it's not that bad after all. you can't make it worse right? Right? oh... yeah.

 

And about space station, although idea is good. But... i don't know will other factions invade this thing? because you know. Grineer and Corpus have fleets and why not?

Edited February 10, 2014 by Althix

[Fezairin]

I'm fine with most of their ideas... But...

 

The Badlands sounds like a bad idea - at least the way Steve describes it. This works in EVE Online, but I don't really need another game where Megacorps/Alliances dominate the rest. (Or as Steve put it himself: "If you want to be a jerk...")

 

Also PVP in Warframe is always good for a laugh. Friendly challenge. If they introduce true competitive PVP they would have to balance the frames for PVP - which very likely makes them boring. If they make the towers just new PVE content, it is again just a matter of numbers.

Also "small Ghost Clan Hardcore players" - like our Clan: A bunch of friends playing this game quite heavily - will never ever be the ones to help 1000+ member Clans/Alliances. 10 players playing the same mission for 3 hours again and again cannot compete with 1000 players playing the same mission for 1 hour once. It is not skill - it is simple math. And we would not want to join the faceless masses in a greater clan or alliance and I think there are many other would not want to do this either. It would be OK if it was just something happening in the background.

But to pay another clan to get access to missions is a slap in the face.

 

Since many kiddos and certainly Something Awful etc will like the concept, the least they should do then is introduce a mission allows to hack and bypass that "solar rail". Didn't see the Tennos bow to Grineer or Corpus so far. I cannot imagine our Space Ninjas pay tolls to others. They stealth or smash their way through.

There will not even be much strife. There will be some initial strife, then more and more join the largest faction. In the end there is a status quo, with all small clans suffering under the whims of the two or three big Alliances.
Perhaps they should just introduce something like wars between Clans - but the wars must be agreed on by both sides.
The social hubs sound nice though. ;)

 

All just my opinion, but most of the games dominated by large clans and alliances just grow stale and boring.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Fezairin

[OriKlein]

In the simplistic form, given the scarce few details we're provided with, it all just seem to me like an implementation of what Cryptic Faildios have done with Star Trek Online.

Which is to say just more lame grind and not really as cool as it may sound. I could be wrong, of course. I hope I am.

[Calayne]

I like the idea of the "End Game" proposed, in the sense that player-generated content, especially those related to clans, tend to have a certain longevity to it. Even if it is quite limited.

 

As for the Hubs, that really sounds like a wonderful idea you have there! I have a feeling it'll definitely be more than a single room. If it isn't, I think it rather defeats the purpose of it all. Perhaps we can even pay (Plat, perhaps, for server costs) to have stations that we can customize, sort of like a personal castle. In this case, you can use the resources you have to build these personalized obstacle courses, galleries and parkour parks.

 

In this sense, player generated content can be a reality, and you can even charge per entry, if you think it's good enough. Non-plat, of course. 

 

I personally hope that at the end of the day, this does not detract from the true end-game most people hope for: The Cells concept was an amazing one I hope they visit, and perhaps scenarios which require more than one Tenno team to complete, making a larger scale co-op. Large, awesome boss fights, truly challenging enemies (Not knock-down reliant gore-fests, but something that requires skill as well as teamwork), and true mission variety. So far, only Survival, Defence and Interception are unique game mechanics which truly make Warframe stand out. Extermination, Spy and Deception get bland after a while, and these are supposed to be staple missions.

 

Anyways, good write up! I'm loving it.

[Althix]

^ yeah this is what we all are talking about. we want missions that will inspire coop and teamwork.

 

because from the look of it: what we can expect is a fancy lobby to play the very same dull and boring missions.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Althix

[tahrox]

All of this sounds good, but I wouldn't punish players that hard if they want to leave at "Favor 4" let them keep the rewards.

[Boomstick720]

It is indeed a cold day in hell to find a thread where nugget is not the most negative person here.

 

On topic, I liked the proxy war idea, and sorta liked the focus idea.  Proxy war I think has the most promise, and focus is kinda neat (although I think what it actually is made up of is a real game-breaker here).

 

Badlands is... well the places themselves sound good, but the method to get there sounds like a nightmare.  Putting access to an area in the hands of the players?  I hate to sound like a jerk, but what in god's name are you thinking, DE?  I have yet to see a situation in which players who wield enormous power do not immediately abuse it like crazy.  Its a nice thought, but the kinds of people who play these games are typically not the kinds of people you would ever want to give any sort of power to.  Ever.

[Calayne]

Granted, they're power given to the most powerful clan over things which are non-essential. It's a feature, not a necessity.

 

As for the Proxy War and being loyal to a faction... I support Nugget on this. In fact, if you want to leave a clan after you've pledged allegiance to it, I suggest making a quest where you go to the faction's official Hub, put in your resignation, and they try to kill you. Then, you have to fight your way out of that particular system in the star chart, probably a few missions you can complete at your own leisure, before you're free from the faction. Of course, now your standing with them is probably at an all-time low, and they'll consider you hostile for a long, long time (Until you make it up to them one way or another, of course).

[W4RH3AD]

Really have high hopes for the new lobby system! Totally agree with the whole 'make it alive' idea. That will really make Warframe seem to have more depth and immersion..!

[Deidaku]

Well said OP, ( AoT FTW check out the subaru X shingei commercial)

 

Back on topic ; when they said endgame I was expecting some kind of Ultra final Orokin corrupted boss ( why doesn't have bosses? I know there'sLephantis but he's infested....) , kinda like olga flow.....

 

 

 

And I agree strongly when you said that it looks more like new content  than endgame,   but we need a basis for endgame , should we discuss about the famous and popular endgame systems in other games? to see how it's done?

[Redlove108]

I love the idea of Proxy war and it also should reveal a ton more lore with it. I already know who I'm siding with when it comes out. Apparently there's an assassin group called "Red Veil." Given my name... yup we are perfect match. :D

[Kaian-a-coel]

I personally heavily dislike the "badlands" idea. It has all the potential of the world to go very, very wrong and once again shaft solo players/small clans out of the way. It doesn't even look like player-created content. It's the invasion system all over again but with clans instead of grineer and corpus.

 

The "focus" is the one I'm most excited about. IF they drop the "once per mission supersayan" bullS#&amp;&#036; and make it proper passives and customisation.

 

As for Proxy wars, I don't want to be stuck with a single faction, mostly because my loyalty goes to my fellow tennos and nobody else, but I have nothing against things preventing you from faction-hopping past a given point.

 

The relays thingies made me very excited, mostly because it fits really well into my own starmap revamp ideas, and if DE is heading this way (more or less), I'm all for it.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Not really a fan of any of those concepts, especially the badlands one, as it's basically a form of indirect PvP. But as long as nothing those towers will allow access to is exclusive to those areas I don't care much. It's still encouraging toxicity to form, but since it's going to be on a far less personal level it also won't affect bystanders as much as - say - a public dueling place in one of the relays(please, PLEASE don't add anything like that).

 

The other two concepts are not endgame, as they both are a progression system that can be finished given enough time, unless I misunderstood Focus and you will need XP to keep your abilities fueled, in which case, yes, that's sort of an endgame. It's still going to be lackluster and doesn't promote character building as Steve envisioned it because main part of the game - fighting AI enemies - doesn't allow for interesting choices that will all be equally viable in some form.

If the main gameplay required more than a damage to kill most enemies we would see people go for specialized paths, but as it stands now whatever is going to give the highest damage boost will become the superior choice amongst focus paths and abilities.

 

I refrained from saying the next line in the past because I know how game developer houses work and how they can't all do the same thing at the same time, but if DE wants Focus to become a viable endgame activity, they need to give the abilities a resources that can be drained by usage(XP) and more importantly diversify enemy units drastically to increase the utility of non damage related skills over damage related skills. A short example would be allowing for sniper units to become invisible while standing skill or allowing enemies to dodge your fire(dodge making them invulnerable for a split second).

 

The rep grind I like the least, despite it promising to add more lore to the game. Worse, if the rank system is getting expanded after its initial introduction, the grind also becomes a treadmill, as the goalpost(highest rank) keeps being pushed back further and further. Eventually though, it will have a final rank at which the progression stops. Players will have reaped all benefits from that faction, and will either continue grinding the other path for get all the other rewards, or if the game locks players in a choice, will just become bored like they are now after having acquired every weapon in the game to 30.

 

My suggestion to move this system from "rep grind until max rank" to true endgame, you would have to give players the ability to create content themselves. The current invasions system is a nice way to allow players to influence the condition of the world. Yes, the imbalanced motivational factors make it a rather uninteresting choice, but basic idea behind it can be developed into a progression that doesn't end when you reached "Hero of the Corpus" or whatever the max rank will be called.

Hire a columnist that chronicles the story(as in game character) of the solar system, which is driven by player choice. Base future events around player choice and it into the lore. Make those special organizations hold summits and allow their members(the payers) to vote further courses of action. Make higher ranking player votes weigh more than lower ranking player votes. Of course, you would really have to balance the rewards for each faction very well to not end up with the same situation we are currently in and not be afraid to adjust the rewards post release if necessary. Rewards is going to be the player's main motivation generally speaking, so every imbalance should be quickly addressed and fixed.

 

Successful endgame requires endless progression or none at all. This is why so many players cite PvP as being the best type of endgame. Even without any kind of progression system, players generate content themselves with every new match. That's what you want to emulate with the badlands, and while I don't like what it will bring in terms of community toxicity, I understand the motivation behind it.

[SolidSp33d]

About the clan sizes. Steve didn't say they can ask big clans for assistance. He said that bigger clans who are getting their asses handed to them by another might be interested in hiring these small "mercenary" clans to help them out. Also he said that smaller clans can form alliances to build and manage their own towers. That will be some pretty tough management depends on the number of parts of the alliance, but it's possible to do that. I feel like the clan window/features will get a big overall. (clan 2.0 anyone?) They need to do Guild Wars 2 on it. That's one of the few things it had down pact. :P

 

Also I'm pretty sure these are just the main endgame systems for the year or part of the year. There will likely be more or these systems will likely come with more traditional end-game with "dungeons" and what not. We are still expecting that Infested Hive ship which probably won't be just another set of nodes and tiles. Hoping on a hive ship is rolling in the deep man. Proxy Wars is supposed to come with all these special quests. Steve even coughed about Vor's Prize being related to it. Also I feel like the territory of the badlands will have much more to them. There should be some crazy things to find and fight there. It would be REALLY interesting if there were hidden dungeons in the badlands and a skyrail could just happen to land on one. That would open up something completely new and challenging. And explosion of story comes up out of no were. Players rush to that point. And suddenly every clan in the system starts plotting against the clan who found it. The struggle of control.

 

I reeeally wouldn't mind if there are things you can only find in the badlands. It's not like you HAVE to be a part of a clan to run the missions. So I think it would be perfectly fine to have the badlands give special loot.

 

I have a lot of thoughts about this stuff, there's so much potential. Although the badlands are still easy to mess up. It's going to need some heavy testing as well, but players might get a little too comfy in their positions for something like, "test, reset and fix, test, reset and add all this feedback." They DEFINITELY need to scan threads for badlands feedback with all their might. Like, they would open up a thread themselves even. Hell, make a bloody mini stream and talk back and forth to us about it. XD Maybe I'm going a little overboard, but they need to make sure it has the proper meat and potatoes to build upon before players start swarming in and claiming land. It'll get hard to add certain things once the players start staking claims so having the right tools in place is important.

Edited February 9, 2014 by SolidSp33d

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Endgame in the truest sense can't come until after Serration and enemy levels die.

That said, I'm still looking forward the new stuff. I'm worried about the bad lands because it just seems like minimal reward. Unless there are going be some ultra expensive things added to the game, the taxes are meaningless.

Also, imagine for a second what would happen if the Moon clans allied? Would anyone stop us? No. Also it's likely that you'll be able buy defenses for your towers, so after a while, it'll stagnate any newcomers will crushed beneath the Moon Alliance. Players will support whoever gives them lower taxes which will likely be the Moon Alliance which already has more resources than it could ever need.

[MageMeat]

Endgame in the truest sense can't come until after Serration and enemy levels die.

That said, I'm still looking forward the new stuff. I'm worried about the bad lands because it just seems like minimal reward. Unless there are going be some ultra expensive things added to the game, the taxes are meaningless.

Also, imagine for a second what would happen if the Moon clans allied? Would anyone stop us? No. Also it's likely that you'll be able buy defenses for your towers, so after a while, it'll stagnate any newcomers will crushed beneath the Moon Alliance. Players will support whoever gives them lower taxes which will likely be the Moon Alliance which already has more resources than it could ever need.

Perhaps they will impose limits on alliance size, or create penalties for very large groups. Reduced resource/affinity gain, longer build times (I know these aren't exactly good ideas, just throwing it out there)...

Hopefully, a balance of some sort will be placed and maintained without major abuse of power from any parties.

Edited February 9, 2014 by MageMeat

[PrincessWhite]

http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlsyEla_uEOUdERwRURQYnA2cDRUZnVDTlUtOW4tV2c&usp=drive_web&richtext=true#gid=0

Edited February 9, 2014 by PrincessWhite

[Zaresin]

I think they should add all three 

 

EDIT:  Also....chin up bud..I like you when you're positive...makes me want to hug you.  Either way I do enjoy reading your posts, they are always well thought out and put together.  

Edited February 9, 2014 by Zaresin

[XDeathCoreX]

This is how it should be in Warframe. Please, no faction hopping.

 

So you want to sacrifice faction hopping just so you can satisfy your own choice and make yourself feel good and to hell with other people. This isn't roleplaying, who gives a damn.

Edited February 9, 2014 by XDeathCoreX

[-Judgement]

Love all these ideas

[Sasquatchias]

So you want to sacrifice faction hopping just so you can satisfy your own choice and make yourself feel good and to hell with other people. This isn't roleplaying, who gives a damn.

I'd say the people who were supporting a faction that you'd just abandoned in favor of another faction's rewards give a damn.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Fezairin explained very well why Badlands is a horrible idea. Essentially it's a way to grief massive number of players for the sake of griefing. Just no. Who ever though that's a good idea?