Discussion About De Handling Communication And Feedback

[Undead_Zeratul]

Because antagonizing DE and calling them liars isn't productive. Telling them "We think you messed up on this, could you take a look and get back to us?" is much, much more productive for all parties involved.

 

As a software developer myself, if a coworker came up to my desk and started yelling at me that my piece of code is broken, I'd never fix it.  If they came up calmly and politely told me that "something is broken, how can we fix it?" I'd be more than delighted to help fix the issue.  I can't stand seeing all these whiny threads of people yelling and pointing fingers at the development team when something doesn't work like it should.  Guess what guys, this is how software development goes.  it's not called "development" for no reason.  Politely pointing out WHAT isn't working right instead of at WHO broke it is how things will get fixed.

[Dalu__Ka]

But i already prepare torches and pitchforks for storming DE castle.

 

Also, i prepared Fragor for tenderizing his flesh.

 

I'm afraid I can not support you in this, DE isn't the monster people think it is.

 

That being said... do you have Hannibal's phone number? I need some more recipes.

[Shifted]

As a software developer myself, if a coworker came up to my desk and started yelling at me that my piece of code is broken, I'd never fix it.  If they came up calmly and politely told me that "something is broken, how can we fix it?" I'd be more than delighted to help fix the issue.  I can't stand seeing all these whiny threads of people yelling and pointing fingers at the development team when something doesn't work like it should.  Guess what guys, this is how software development goes.  it's not called "development" for no reason.  Politely pointing out WHAT isn't working right instead of at WHO broke it is how things will get fixed.

See, thing is, customer =/= coworker.

Customer actually PAYS for this stuff, so no wonder they expect/demand results

 

inb4 "F2P lololooollo". Yeah, whatever, doesn't make it any less true.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Shifted

[RoboDoge]

I'm afraid I can not support you in this, DE isn't the monster people think it is.

 

That being said... do you have Hannibal's phone number? I need some more recipes.

*Throws torch at Tenn*

 

Hannibal will be our guest of honor, and he will show his BBQ tricks also.

[Zaresin]

See, thing is, customer =/= coworker.

Customer actually PAYS for this stuff, so no wonder they expect/demand results

 

inb4 "F2P lololooollo". Yeah, whatever, doesn't make it any less true.

 

Trust me...the customer isn't always right.  Very rarely are they right.

[Dalu__Ka]

As a software developer myself, if a coworker came up to my desk and started yelling at me that my piece of code is broken, I'd never fix it.  If they came up calmly and politely told me that "something is broken, how can we fix it?" I'd be more than delighted to help fix the issue.  I can't stand seeing all these whiny threads of people yelling and pointing fingers at the development team when something doesn't work like it should.  Guess what guys, this is how software development goes.  it's not called "development" for no reason.  Politely pointing out WHAT isn't working right instead of at WHO broke it is how things will get fixed.

So much this.

 

You can catch more flies with honey, than with vinegar.

[KijaJouteh]

What we may view as easy fixes may not fit into their plans.  Like I said, we do not know what they have planned and their may actually be a point to the greneer dominating the star chart.  

 

To put things in perspective let me ask you this....what happens when a losing side of a war gets desperate and resources become harder to get for them?  They spread it out over their remaining forces or they concentrate them into certain areas until they start winning offensives.  It is usually one or the other.  That was my impression when I noticed the battlepay had changed.  

Because DE so CLEARLY cares about lore.

[Shifted]

Trust me...the customer isn't always right.  Very rarely are they right.

Well, it's up to the customer to pay or not, then.

[Zaresin]

Because DE so CLEARLY cares about lore.

 

You missed my point, I'll explain.

 

They might have chosen the more realistic response that a losing side may take.  I'm just trying to look at things from other perspectives.  You may not like the perspective, but it is better than only focusing on a negative aspect.  There is enough negativity already...why add to it?

Edited February 18, 2014 by Zaresin

[KijaJouteh]

This is an issue when you have a community that's grown as large as this one. If the devs spent the time going over every single idea and suggestion on the forums then they wouldn't have any time to actually develop the game.

 

Basically when an idea garners a lot of comments and upvotes, that's when it becomes more likely to be seen by the developers.

But there HAVE been some REALLY good ideas, that wouldn't even been to hard to implement. They said "Suggestionjs have been noted" locked the thread, and never did anything.

 

[Zaresin]

Well, it's up to the customer to pay or not, then.

 

It's always been that way.  We all have the choice.  We never stopped having the choice.  Doesn't change the fact that the customer isn't always right though. 

[KijaJouteh]

You missed my point, I'll explain.

 

They might have chosen the more realistic response that a losing side may take.  I'm just trying to look at things from other perspectives.  You may not like the perspective, but it is better than only focusing on a negative aspect.  There is enough negativity already...why add to it?

The problem is, is that I don't think we should look at this in a lore perspective. Pretty much all the good Corpus nodes are gone, so what does DE do? Make a frame that needs to be grinded 600 oxium + research costs, and you can ONLY get it from Corpus. With weak battle pay, this will only get worse. How long until Sedna invasion, and Kappa is taken over? There will basically be no way to farm this ridiculous amount of Oxium

[Brontolith]

Telling them "We think you messed up on this, could you take a look and get back to us?" is much, much more productive for all parties involved.

This isn't productive at all. DE doesn't actually look into things unless their noses are rubbed into their own failings.

Remember the dark sword and how it wasn't seen for months and how there were many threads asking for them to look into it? Their response was everything's hunky dory. Then the alerts got a twitter feed and bam oh shi we (the players) were right all along dark sword alerts were broken.

How about void drop chance being crazy low for some items. Many people complained on the forums. Again DE said no it's fine it's only because of "dilution of the drop tables". Next day drop tables were datamined and bam 0.67% chance for some items to drop. What's DE next move? Encrypt drop tables cause you know the person data mining pretty much called their lie out in a very public and embarrassing way.

Unless DE I caught red handed in a lie they try to act like nothing is wrong and that everything is fine.

[Zaresin]

The problem is, is that I don't think we should look at this in a lore perspective. Pretty much all the good Corpus nodes are gone, so what does DE do? Make a frame that needs to be grinded 600 oxium + research costs, and you can ONLY get it from Corpus. With weak battle pay, this will only get worse. How long until Sedna invasion, and Kappa is taken over? There will basically be no way to farm this ridiculous amount of Oxium

 

Currently, that is the playerbase's fault to put it bluntly.  The playrebase decided to wipe the corpus off the map due to greed.  Granted DE gave us the rope...we just decided to hang ourselves with it instead of hog tie dinner.

[KijaJouteh]

This isn't productive at all. DE doesn't actually look into things unless their noses are rubbed into their own failings.

Remember the dark sword and how it wasn't seen for months and how there were many threads asking for them to look into it? Their response was everything's hunky dory. Then the alerts got a twitter feed and bam oh shi we (the players) were right all along dark sword alerts were broken.

How about void drop chance being crazy low for some items. Many people complained on the forums. Again DE said no it's fine it's only because of "dilution of the drop tables". Next day drop tables were datamined and bam 0.67% chance for some items to drop. What's DE next move? Encrypt drop tables cause you know the person data mining pretty much called their lie out in a very public and embarrassing way.

Unless DE I caught red handed in a lie they try to act like nothing is wrong and that everything is fine.

As a side note, drop tables should REALLY be uncrypted. It helps a lot so people know what they're up against.

Also, all of this, all the way.

[Angius]

The thing is - as I said before - we were politely asking for changes. We were like "Can you please solve the issue of diluted Void tables? I understand, that you never thoght, that so many parts will be in there, so here, have some ideas:" and the post go like 50 kore additional ideas, lots of them with 50-200 upvotes.

 

What DE did? "We jst gonna throw some crappy keys in there to make those tables even more diluted. We do what we want lol, whattcha gunna do about it?"

 

We were like "So, Frost is one-trick pony with his snowglobe, here is my idea how to fix him without nerfing the Snowglobe to the round" and it got like 400 upvotes.

 

What DE did? "Yeah, so I got pissed about people asking for Frost balancing, so I just nerfed the snowglobe to the level where it is useless in high tier missions. That'll teach you not to ask for balancing, you'll get nerfs instead"

 

Each thread with suggestions ended in the same manner "Yeah, those are great ideas, I noted them and I will pass them to the crew. Locked"

And not a single one of those ideas was implemented. I saw tons and tons of great ideas. Yet not. A. Single. One. made it to the actual game.

[LukeAura]

The problem is, is that I don't think we should look at this in a lore perspective. Pretty much all the good Corpus nodes are gone, so what does DE do? Make a frame that needs to be grinded 600 oxium + research costs, and you can ONLY get it from Corpus. With weak battle pay, this will only get worse. How long until Sedna invasion, and Kappa is taken over? There will basically be no way to farm this ridiculous amount of Oxium

They're working on something I would expect to rebalance the map. An event around this ominous project Tethra. 

And they're already working on a system to stop it from happening again. 

 

[MaskedSin]

The thing is - as I said before - we were politely asking for changes. We were like "Can you please solve the issue of diluted Void tables? I understand, that you never thoght, that so many parts will be in there, so here, have some ideas:" and the post go like 50 kore additional ideas, lots of them with 50-200 upvotes.

 

What DE did? "We jst gonna throw some crappy keys in there to make those tables even more diluted. We do what we want lol, whattcha gunna do about it?"

 

We were like "So, Frost is one-trick pony with his snowglobe, here is my idea how to fix him without nerfing the Snowglobe to the round" and it got like 400 upvotes.

 

What DE did? "Yeah, so I got &!$$ed about people asking for Frost balancing, so I just nerfed the snowglobe to the level where it is useless in high tier missions. That'll teach you not to ask for balancing, you'll get nerfs instead"

 

Each thread with suggestions ended in the same manner "Yeah, those are great ideas, I noted them and I will pass them to the crew. Locked"

 

And not a single one of those ideas was implemented. I saw tons and tons of great ideas. Yet not. A. Single. One. made it to the actual game.

 

So true.

 

The more and more I see, the more and more it's #DEFail.

[KijaJouteh]

Currently, that is the playerbase's fault to put it bluntly.  The playrebase decided to wipe the corpus off the map due to greed.  Granted DE gave us the rope...we just decided to hang ourselves with it instead of hog tie dinner.

"Guys, we shouldn't farm for Detron (A very powerful weapon) because it will make the Corpus nodes go away!" - Said no player, ever

If DE really thought that we wouldn't wipe away Corpus nodes farming for Detron, then wow, they really need to rethink how they see their players.

[Brasten]

I have to agree...while I like the idea of a player driven environment there needs to be boundaries involved.  Affecting the star chart as it has I think was a bad decision....but you know what they say about hindsight.

Not even hind sight. Anyone who's run large scale environments that are player influenced with 0 boundaries could tell (and did) what was going to happen before it happened. The DE still hasn't learned from the Gradivus Dilemma that once a snowball gets going it stays roling and only gets worse when the initial starting position is out of balance. The current system is FUBAR, like Gradivus, and just needs a hard restart.

Its why this needs to get pulled off the Star Chart and into its own "non-canon until the season is done and interpreted" world. It would give DE the time and space to get an handle on fencing starting conditions and back end mechanics. Running it off the "canon" chart and in seasons allows for hard resets AND in terms of clan competitions allows clans to switch sides or positions and try something different each season. You don't run the NFL (or any sport) regular season for 10 years with cumulative stat totals that whole time. And unlike real world spots, digital competitions can have far faster iteration times since they aren't limited to one game per team per week.

Active Living world play environments are great, but only if you have a handle on them, which DE does not. That's not a dis, they just don't have the experience on staff to run an active Living world in real time yet.

Its why Steve's talk of Badlands and territory fights by proxy has me worried. Does he understand, truely, how things like EVE Null-Sec works? Or Cyrodiil in ESO? Or how something like Pathfinder Online is pitched as doing.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Currently, that is the playerbase's fault to put it bluntly.  The playrebase decided to wipe the corpus off the map due to greed.  Granted DE gave us the rope...we just decided to hang ourselves with it instead of hog tie dinner.

Actually, it was DE's. DE put in the detron, and the method to acquire it. Players simple did what gave the best reward to them (in this case the detron).

 

Basic game design, give rewards to get players to do what you want.

[Letter13]

But there HAVE been some REALLY good ideas, that wouldn't even been to hard to implement. They said "Suggestions have been noted" locked the thread, and never did anything.

I'm not saying that they always do things when they see feedback. Ultimately, whether we like it or not, it's their decision when it comes to rolling with the ideas we give them or rolling with their own.

 

Also the threads that get locked are the ones that grow too long (and derail from the initial point) or too incendiary (in which it derails to straight up dev bashing) or that they've been resolved in some way shape or form.

 

I want to prevent this thread from derailing and from being locked for becoming too incendiary; as it is the thread has derailed from "Invasions are borked" and started going off to "DE never listens" land. 

[KijaJouteh]

The thing is - as I said before - we were politely asking for changes. We were like "Can you please solve the issue of diluted Void tables? I understand, that you never thoght, that so many parts will be in there, so here, have some ideas:" and the post go like 50 kore additional ideas, lots of them with 50-200 upvotes.

 

What DE did? "We jst gonna throw some crappy keys in there to make those tables even more diluted. We do what we want lol, whattcha gunna do about it?"

 

We were like "So, Frost is one-trick pony with his snowglobe, here is my idea how to fix him without nerfing the Snowglobe to the round" and it got like 400 upvotes.

 

What DE did? "Yeah, so I got &!$$ed about people asking for Frost balancing, so I just nerfed the snowglobe to the level where it is useless in high tier missions. That'll teach you not to ask for balancing, you'll get nerfs instead"

 

Each thread with suggestions ended in the same manner "Yeah, those are great ideas, I noted them and I will pass them to the crew. Locked"

And not a single one of those ideas was implemented. I saw tons and tons of great ideas. Yet not. A. Single. One. made it to the actual game.

Yes. This. They have clearly shown little interest in ACTUALLY adding player suggestions.

[Zaresin]

The thing is - as I said before - we were politely asking for changes. We were like "Can you please solve the issue of diluted Void tables? I understand, that you never thoght, that so many parts will be in there, so here, have some ideas:" and the post go like 50 kore additional ideas, lots of them with 50-200 upvotes.

 

What DE did? "We jst gonna throw some crappy keys in there to make those tables even more diluted. We do what we want lol, whattcha gunna do about it?"

 

We were like "So, Frost is one-trick pony with his snowglobe, here is my idea how to fix him without nerfing the Snowglobe to the round" and it got like 400 upvotes.

 

What DE did? "Yeah, so I got &!$$ed about people asking for Frost balancing, so I just nerfed the snowglobe to the level where it is useless in high tier missions. That'll teach you not to ask for balancing, you'll get nerfs instead"

 

Each thread with suggestions ended in the same manner "Yeah, those are great ideas, I noted them and I will pass them to the crew. Locked"

And not a single one of those ideas was implemented. I saw tons and tons of great ideas. Yet not. A. Single. One. made it to the actual game.

 

Thing is about suggestions..they are only that...we don't decide what happens to the game (star map balance not withstanding) their development team does and it is not just one persons decision.  Should they have gone with those decisions, well good thing about it being an online game, they can change again.  The frost changes can change again (still think they need to fix ember a bit).  Right now they have a lot on their plates, melee 2.0 being one, the hub system, vay hec still isnt' out yet and he is apparently posing issues that they didn't forsee but that is normal when developing things.  No i'm not saying sit back and take the changes that you don't like, but no one can please everyone.  There will always be disagreements and some things just won't ever work.  They won't know unless they try them.  We are the lab rats....even when this game goes live we will continue to be lab rats.  

[KijaJouteh]

I'm not saying that they always do things when they see feedback. Ultimately, whether we like it or not, it's their decision when it comes to rolling with the ideas we give them or rolling with their own.

 

Also the threads that get locked are the ones that grow too long (and derail from the initial point) or too incendiary (in which it derails to straight up dev bashing) or that they've been resolved in some way shape or form.

 

I want to prevent this thread from derailing and from being locked for becoming too incendiary; as it is the thread has derailed from "Invasions are borked" and started going off to "DE never listens" land. 

The main point has already gotten across. It was always about how DE wasn't listening to us from the very beggining of the thread. If this thread gets locked, tho, i'll probably start a new thread about DE not listening.