How To Get De To Listen To You.

[adoomgod]

I've been reading a lot of threads lately and while I don't agree with everything DE does I thought I'd take the time to compile a list of things that can help get your message heard. Before we start let me note a couple things though:

 

1. DE has said that they read pretty much everything already, the angry, the sad, the mannered, they understand we have emotions and they try to see past them and to the core of whatever's written.

2. I don't assume to know anything special about DE that you guys don't, I'm just going to talk from the point of view of a fellow human being. 

 

Let's get started.

 

Be polite

While it may seem obvious, it is perhaps the most disregarded piece of advice I can give. Yes they said they'd read even your rage to see if you have a valid point but they are human beings and I can promise you that all extremely rude and negative posts will add is the temptation to ignore you or worse, listen to you too much and over correct the problem making a worse problem. They are human beings just like us and they deserve to be treated with the same respect you'd use with people in real life. (if you treat people horribly in real life that's another problem all together)

 

Avoid Redundancy when possible

Trust me when I say that 1 well crafted thread with 20 pages is more noticeable then 100 not thought out threads on the same topic. Beyond that, it also just makes the forums a more organized place to scroll through. How to accomplish this? Havvvve you met the Search bar? Search out key phrases/words from the topic of your thread and one already exists on your subject specifically then join their discussion. Swallow the ol' pride and don't try to own your own thread just for the sake of it. There is nobody that won't appreciate this.

 

Stop being the stereo-typically entitled gamer

This is the big one that I think a lot of people might disagree with, but try to follow my logic here. DE owes you next to nothing. It is their game and if you don't like it, you can just stop playing. If they nerf your 5 forma'd weapon you are not ENTITLED to platinum or some sort of compensation. If they break part of their game that you really like, they are not under obligation to make it better for you. Worse (for us in this sense,) the game is still technically in "Beta" so they are truly free under any definition to completely revamp and take apart the game as much as they want without us being able to argue that it's not fair. If the game wasn't in beta the point could be made "The game is complete and you let me spend real world money in this weapon that's been out for a long time, then nerf it, I'd like a refund." Still not entitled to it but the argument would be STRONGER. As it is now, any platinum invested is paid for with you KNOWING (at least you should know) that you're paying for an unfinished product subject to nigh-infinite change. Furthermore, have you read their TOS? 

 

To be clear, I am not dismissing complaints etc. etc. but they are just that, complaints. Not mandates. I agree with a LOT of the current frustration over the state of Warframe. I think much of it is Warranted, but instead of just pulling on your balls a lot and raging, vote with your gameplay. Invasions are broken? Stop doing them and join 1 single united thread against the current state of invasions. The whole game is broken? Stop playing leave bad reviews wherever you think is appropriate and keep your friends away. If you're nice, find or create a thread on how to fix what you perceive as broken. Instead of letting emotion overwhelm, try to think "how can I most constructively get what I dislike changed for the better" and keep in mind that not everyone will agree with you.

 

If you have friends/clans/allies, have them support you

Random people who agree on the forum is nice, but if you already know a huge group of people who agree with you, have them comment in your thread. No man is an island, reach out for help. 

 

Argue from logic, not emotion

Take out any name-calling, and probably most negative adjectives from your post. (i.e. farming is stupidly slow change to farming is too slow, very slow, extremely slow in my opinion, so slow it feels painful to me, all these are better than the first) Make sure that you cite facts. Data and statistics are great. Don't just say you don't like something. Try to show why you think NOBODY, or almost nobody would like something. To be clear, I'm not saying hide your negative feelings, I'm asking you to explain what specifically caused them to arise. "F@!# this game" isn't as helpful as, "F$#@ this game, 100 runs and still no prime part! That's absolute B$@%!*%#!" Still, the same could be said without the cursing and it would probably be more appealing to read and better received.

 

If you absolutely love the state of something, make a thread about it

Developers always have to be wary of something called "the loud minority." And it's been proven that people tend to write online to complain more than to praise. Try to balance this out by stating when something feels just right to you. If you take the time to toy with a new gun, frame, w/e they add to the game and it feels just right to you, say so. Be specific. Don't just say "the new Frost skills are awesome." Say something like, "I think you guys have really hit the new Frost Skills out of the park. They feel just right and i LOVE them the way they are now. This is the Frost I was waiting for." Something like that. There is nothing wrong with the first example, but if you feel strongly for something let it show.

 

If I think of anything more or I see anything great posted here I'll add it to the list. I'm not saying to stop complaining, I'm saying complain well, and be a nice human being.

 

Edit 2- What's at Stake

I won't say it's going to happen but what's at stake is DE's love for us, the community. Don't get me wrong, DE is RESPONSIBLE for their position as developers and being able to filter out the asinine and to make sure they don't become incredulous. However, against a sea of negativity even the strong may buckle. What if some, or even one of DE's members feels resentment to the community? What if, in a less extreme case, some developers that read the forums find themselves groaning and discouraged to sign on to see what we have to say? While they must take responsibility for staying strong, we should take responsibility to encourage them and healthily reach out to them. We should never think that there are enemies here, we should try to embrace the idea that both DE and the community want Warframe to be as good as it can possibly be. Cynicism, paranoia, and resignation have no place in that ideal. It's hard to let go of those 3 feelings sometimes but try your best. Let's try to make their job as easy as is appropriate, it can only benefit all of us.

 

To DE: -snip- *edit 4* removed my "To DE message. Felt that while well intended it's inappropriate for this post, which should only concern the community. Also clarified "argue from logic not emotion" section.

 

Edit 1 TLDR!

Be polite. Don't start new threads without searching for the subject of your desired thread, just contribute to one that exists so you avoid redundancy. Remember that you're not entitled to any changes whatsoever, also read their TOS if you're seriously out to complain. Get your friends and clan members to support your threads. Don't argue emotionally, take out negative adjectives and name calling and just stick to facts and common sense (you don't need to be a jerk to express frustration). If you love/really like the current state of something, make a thread or a post in the appropriate place about it, this will help quiet the loud minority that always complains and KEEP your liked thing THE WAY IT IS. and again, BE POLITE.

 

Edit 3- Here's the forum rules for those who haven't read them: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/7-community-rules/

 

I admit I hadn't either, and I see a lot of this thread overlaps with their rules.

Edited February 24, 2014 by adoomgod

[Regar]

Agreed, especially about the last paragraph (write positive feedbacks when you like something)

 

 

 

Best Regards, Regar (now that's redudant, apologies xD)

Edited February 22, 2014 by Regar

[Feam]

I was expecting a parody thread with things like: "whine the hardest, prove everyone else is wrong instead of proving you're right, make baseless threats toward everyone in sight."

Impressed to see some solid advice here, there are a lot of posters that should check threads like these out.

[Regar]

Impressed to see some solid advice here, there are a lot of posters that should check threads like these out.

unfortunately, the majority of the people that should check this kind of threads will be too busy writing comments about their incapacity to read more then 3 lines of text without thinking about "walls of text" or something like that

[Armouredhunter]

TL:DR Don't be an *** and be vocal and kind in your support for, or against something.

 

I don't know why it's so hard for some people but OP you have my respect.

[adoomgod]

TL:DR Don't be an *** and be vocal and kind in your support for, or against something.

 

I don't know why it's so hard for some people but OP you have my respect.

Thank you and everyone else, will add a TLDR

[Ritchel]

Ubelievably well said, you are such a great example to us all, there are so few people that has the guts to give an actual advice, wow, its just so amazing, i hope the new children of the forums are just like you, i am such out of words man, just wow. i bet people like you always makes DE listen to you. my salutes

Edited February 22, 2014 by Ritchel

[The_Lunatic_]

Yes, I'm sure DE will ignore a massive community disagreement with something just because they're being rude.

 

 

DE listens to the majority. So, if you want to get DE to listen to you, share a popular opinion.

[Lunamaniac]

I thought this thread would be about data-mining.

[kubbi]

Great points! Though most people know this. Its because of the "fresh" rage people feel when something changes for example. People let their emotions on the loop and just rage in their topics or post. I'm guilty of this myself. Best thing to do is to take breath and think before you post. And remind yourself of the advice this topic wrote.

[Skyrazer]

OP deserves a big pat on the back.

Strongly agree with all his points, and even though I don't post on the forums a lot, I do read a lot of whiny and complain threads with no actual feedback. DE isn't entitled to tolerate any of this but they do, and try to listen to everyone's opinon while they're at it. So DE, keep being awesome.

[Brontolith]

-Snip-

Or you could just bother Scott till he does what ya want. It seems to work look at the

and his reasons for it or how the

got made

Edit: Should just make this clear since its hard to distinguish jokes in text form. This is a joke. Don't bother Scott to much or he'll probably just shut off his PMs like Steve has.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Brontolith

[IIJetfireII]

Well, for me, i am too stupid to even get their slightest attention, well whatever i have done, i ll admit it here.

 

+100 OP, you earned the true respect and i deserved to lose my name...

[thegooseking]

I must disagree with one thing, which is that I don't think people should argue from logic rather than emotion. This is a game. It is an experiential entertainment product. Its impact is supposed to be emotional. It's more a matter of how those emotions are expressed. Be calm when stating how something makes you feel, and try to articulate why you feel that way. Don't let the emotion take over.

[Arthernator]

+1 OP

 

I feel that the Warframe community can be volatile, and show signs of entitlement, and seems to be getting worse.

For what I have seen, there is a lack of decorum in the forums. However, adoomgod, has demonstrated a post of what I feel is highly welcome and wish more of the community would follow suit.

[adoomgod]

I must disagree with one thing, which is that I don't think people should argue from logic rather than emotion. This is a game. It is an experiential entertainment product. Its impact is supposed to be emotional. It's more a matter of how those emotions are expressed. Be calm when stating how something makes you feel, and try to articulate why you feel that way. Don't let the emotion take over.

I never meant to imply not to show emotion, I meant to suggest not to argue from it. "I hate the new latron prime, it makes me angry." Is not helpful, if something makes you feel emotions, try to explain WHY. "I hate the new latron prime and I'm pissed because you should be fixing old weapons instead of making new ones."

[Sebastianx]

And don't forget the last step : Cry hard enough and in big enough numbers without logical arguments and they'll eventually nerf it.

[adoomgod]

unfortunately, the majority of the people that should check this kind of threads will be too busy writing comments about their incapacity to read more then 3 lines of text without thinking about "walls of text" or something like that

Oh ye of little faith. Even if this thread only helps one person change their behavior constructively it will be a success in my book.

 

Also, I added a link to the forum rules in chat. I think a lot of people never read them so I put them in the opening post because it goes hand and hand with my message

[lautalocos]

so, when is this getting stickied?

[Grievous40]

Great job! Nice to see this thread is getting attention and feedback, and I really hope this message sticks with all who read it.

[Ishki88]

What am I missing from the OP?

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/182100-grineers-supra-de-dont-throw-away-this-design/?view=findpost&p=2121775

 

Because I would love to see a yes, maybe or no answer.  :)

[BETAOPTICS]

The thing is I don't write about the stuff I like about because it needs no further attention from me. The things I write about are the things I feel needing improved upon and the rest I don't write about are good enough. Why would I make redundant posts about the things I like just to clutter the forums with them and potentially shadowing real valid good criticism posts with good points that really tackles into important aspects of the game. This is not exclusively Warframe forums problem. I feel that the standardized forum format is the issue.

Do a praise sub forum feedback for people to post about good things and let us here focus onto the real important discussion topics. And even with your mentioned guidline, you may not get heard and a lot of backlash can also get attention enough for changes. Both of these ways have been many times proven to be effective ways of getting changes but I'd guess that is the core problem really. There is no one definitive way to get things heard, it is random to some degree as there are so many factors that affect of you getting heard. Not only this but humans tend to adapt. If their 1st method proves ineffective, they use another instead until they discover how they are getting attention they seek for.

[Corvid]

Can we get this pinned? I think it's something everyone should read.

 

Well said, sir. +1 to you.

[Psroij]

Let me step in and stop the <could be considered an expletive so deleted>ing. The original post is condescending and ignores that the majority of posts in this sub-forum are well reasoned, well spoken, and any emotional display by the posters is used for the effect of showing how frustrated they are.

 

What is it with forums and attracting people who read one or two posts that are overly belligerent and emotional, and it causes that reader to forget the dozen other threads they read that are well reasoned, well written, and have little to no emotion? Any posts that truly step across the line are well within the capability (and responsibility) of the moderators to deal with.

 

This sub-forum, and in fact, every forum I read, consists primarily of well written criticism that is not afraid to call DE out. That does not make it bad, or emotional, it makes it proper criticism. People are also free to disagree with each other and have conflicting ideas. Yeah, occasionally you get a, "This sucks! Change it!" with absolutely no other content in the post, but you know what I have witnessed time and again? Those posts get shredded, or even supported, by many voices that are articulate.

 

If anything the OP is a joke, because all we have seen from DE in regards to paying attention to posters is entirely random. There are dozens of well written posts by people like notionphil, Volt_Cruelerz, Xylia, Nugget_, NikolaiLev, etc, so on and so forth, that for all anyone can tell go completely ignored by DE. The majority of responses we have seen from DE seem to only be garnered when tons of posters rise up from a bone headed idea being implemented to flood the forum with, "WTFO?! This is terrible!"

 

[snip]

Argue from logic, not emotion

Take out any name-calling, and probably most negative adjectives from your post. (i.e. farming is stupidly slow change to farming is too slow, very slow, extremely slow in my opinion, so slow it feels painful to me, all these are better than the first)[snip]

And this bothers me the most. No. Someone should not have to sanitize their post, creating a milquetoast opinion because it might "harsh on someone's feelings, man."

 

Using negative adjectives is perfectly acceptable. Not everything is an Ad Hominem —and therefore dismissable— just because it has negative connotations, or is even an insult tacked onto, or within an argument. A forum should not be a hug box where people cannot truly express themselves or the depth of their frustration, and where positive emotions only can be displayed within an argument.

 

If someone thinks an idea is stupid, or idiotic, or so badly implimented it makes their gonads ache in pain they should be free to state it, so long as it is within the guidelines of respect that govern the forum.

 

Special snowflake consideration to make sure no one ever feels slightly offended or upset is what kills forums and honest feedback.

[adoomgod]

What am I missing from the OP?

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/182100-grineers-supra-de-dont-throw-away-this-design/?view=findpost&p=2121775

 

Because I would love to see a yes, maybe or no answer.  :)

Unfortunately it is just not reasonable to expect DE to have to time to give official statements on every idea and request thread. Even if you do everything right, the best is to just hope it went noticed, they may see it and talk about it in the office even if they don't reply.

 

Let me step in and stop the <could be considered an expletive so deleted>ing. The original post is condescending and ignores that the majority of posts in this sub-forum are well reasoned, well spoken, and any emotional display by the posters is used for the effect of showing how frustrated they are.

 

What is it with forums and attracting people who read one or two posts that are overly belligerent and emotional, and it causes that reader to forget the dozen other threads they read that are well reasoned, well written, and have little to no emotion? Any posts that truly step across the line are well within the capability (and responsibility) of the moderators to deal with.

 

This sub-forum, and in fact, every forum I read, consists primarily of well written criticism that is not afraid to call DE out. That does not make it bad, or emotional, it makes it proper criticism. People are also free to disagree with each other and have conflicting ideas. Yeah, occasionally you get a, "This sucks! Change it!" with absolutely no other content in the post, but you know what I have witnessed time and again? Those posts get shredded, or even supported, by many voices that are articulate.

 

If anything the OP is a joke, because all we have seen from DE in regards to paying attention to posters is entirely random. There are dozens of well written posts by people like notionphil, Volt_Cruelerz, Xylia, Nugget_, NikolaiLev, etc, so on and so forth, that for all anyone can tell go completely ignored by DE. The majority of responses we have seen from DE seem to only be garnered when tons of posters rise up from a bone headed idea being implemented to flood the forum with, "WTFO?! This is terrible!"

 

And this bothers me the most. No. Someone should not have to sanitize their post, creating a milquetoast opinion because it might "harsh on someone's feelings, man."

 

Using negative adjectives is perfectly acceptable. Not everything is an Ad Hominem —and therefore dismissable— just because it has negative connotations, or is even an insult tacked onto, or within an argument. A forum should not be a hug box where people cannot truly express themselves or the depth of their frustration, and where positive emotions only can be displayed within an argument.

 

If someone thinks an idea is stupid, or idiotic, or so badly implimented it makes their gonads ache in pain they should be free to state it, so long as it is within the guidelines of respect that govern the forum.

 

Special snowflake consideration to make sure no one ever feels slightly offended or upset is what kills forums and honest feedback.

I can't tell if you're a troll or not. Condescending? I picked nobody out in particular and nowhere did I state that we have no intelligent and respectful posters. Please don't take the lack of me saying something as me saying something negative. There are plenty of people in this community who do a great job in constructively posting things. This thread has nothing to do with them or anyone in particular, it's just a set of suggestions I made based on personal experience and well-wishing. 

 

One can explain why they disagree with something and make strong points without resorting to childishness. I never said to withhold emotion, i said not to argue from it. Make logical arguments that explain the source of your emotions, don't just vent. 

 

I never asked to turn the forum into a hug box, I even gave example of how people can explain why they "hate" something. I never asked people to repress their dislike or abhorrence to any going ons in this forum or in the game. You call my thread a joke when the fact is my intentions have only been good. I'm sorry you're having a bad day or life or whatever that made you feel the need to be so abrasive and desperate in your search to find fault with what is OBVIOUSLY a well-meant thread. Maybe you felt it was directed at you or your friends when it was not. 

 

If someone thinks an idea is stupid, or idiotic, or so badly implemented* it makes their gonads ache in pain they SHOULD be free to state it, all I suggest is they also state why and dissect the problem. And btw, you don't need to be an &amp;#&#33; to give honest feedback. I can completely hate a feature, and make a very well written thought-out posts on the matter without resorting to childishness. 

 

I'm still scratching my head on how you took offense at any of this.

[Parinirvana]

Unfortunately it is just not reasonable to expect DE to have to time to give official statements on every idea and request thread. Even if you do everything right, the best is to just hope it went noticed, they may see it and talk about it in the office even if they don't reply.

 

I can't tell if you're a troll or not. Condescending? I picked nobody out in particular and nowhere did I state that we have no intelligent and respectful posters. Please don't take the lack of me saying something as me saying something negative. There are plenty of people in this community who do a great job in constructively posting things. This thread has nothing to do with them or anyone in particular, it's just a set of suggestions I made based on personal experience and well-wishing. 

 

One can explain why they disagree with something and make strong points without resorting to childishness. I never said to withhold emotion, i said not to argue from it. Make logical arguments that explain the source of your emotions, don't just vent. 

 

I never asked to turn the forum into a hug box, I even gave example of how people can explain why they "hate" something. I never asked people to repress their dislike or abhorrence to any going ons in this forum or in the game. You call my thread a joke when the fact is my intentions have only been good. I'm sorry you're having a bad day or life or whatever that made you feel the need to be so abrasive and desperate in your search to find fault with what is OBVIOUSLY a well-meant thread. Maybe you felt it was directed at you or your friends when it was not. 

 

If someone thinks an idea is stupid, or idiotic, or so badly implemented* it makes their gonads ache in pain they SHOULD be free to state it, all I suggest is they also state why and dissect the problem. And btw, you don't need to be an &amp;#&#33; to give honest feedback. I can completely hate a feature, and make a very well written thought-out posts on the matter without resorting to childishness. 

 

I'm still scratching my head on how you took offense at any of this.

How did you took offense out of his post? All your post did is giving a guideline to how players should structure their criticism and hope for the best. Do you even have proof that being abrasive and desperate would affect the chance of being heard by DE? You already being on the defensive stand when he argued against your points so strongly that you are question if he is a troll or not, even though his reply are well-written in the manner that YOU are trying to advice others to follow. 

 

I'm still scratching my head on how you step on your own set of guidelines and counter his statement by questioning his seriousness.