Status Mods: Why Haven't They Been Increased Yet?

[NalkorRN]

No one fights level 1000 enemies. Not sure what the point to your argument is.

You're arguing about theoretical battles that no one actually does.

You've never seen people go for several hundred waves on the old Xini using very specific frames (Nyx for Absorb/Chaos for example) because like enemy health and damage, the specific abilities scaled infinitely in their own way.

[DoomFruit]

No one fights level 1000 enemies. Not sure what the point to your argument is.

You're arguing about theoretical battles that no one actually does.

Do 100 waves of derelict defence. You'll fight level 1500 enemies. I've done it and others have gone much further than I have.

 

If you really want it difficult, do 4 hours of T3 survival. The furthest I've ever gotten is 1 hour, where my Ogris was really starting to suffer (4 headshots to kill a *primed* heavy gunner).

Edited March 11, 2014 by DoomFruit

[Inez]

it already starts to apply at lv50, starting to, and absolutely applies around lv100.

At level 50-100 you would much rather just kill them than apply puncture or impact procs. If you're going higher than that, the procs matter even less, because it means you're exploiting broken mechanics, and could care less about impact/puncture procs. Mobs are either cc'd or you're invulnerable.

Just ask the guy above me how much he cares about getting procs. He's fought level 1500 enemies.

[DoomFruit]

At level 50-100 you would much rather just kill them than apply puncture or impact procs. If you're going higher than that, the procs matter even less, because it means you're exploiting broken mechanics, and could care less about impact/puncture procs. Mobs are either cc'd or you're invulnerable.

Just ask the guy above me how much he cares about getting procs. He's fought level 1500 enemies.

Infested, I don't care that much. Grineer, I want Viral and Corrosive procs. Taking their armour and health down to 25% of their massively inflated values will make things a lot easier. Corpus, tricky. Toxin or magnetic procs would help with their enormous shields.

[IamSalva]

If you figth high level Enemies, you care about Viral Procs.

[taiiat]

If you're going higher than that, the procs matter even less, because it means you're exploiting broken mechanics, and could care less about impact/puncture procs. Mobs are either cc'd or you're invulnerable.

that proves my exact point. and nobody ever cares about Impact or Puncture Effects. it's the useful ones we care about -_-

specifically choosing the two least effective Status Effects and ignoring the effective ones makes for a very weak argument.

yes, all of your Infested are on a permanent Vortex / Tornado. that's a convenient situation. but it's a very specific one. 

 

if we talk about the other 3 factions, then Status Effects become more and more powerful compared to the straight up Damage your Weapon deals. tell me, which one is more effective? reducing Armor/Shields to 25% of their original, Health to 50% of it's original - or relying on the Damage from your... Sniping Weapon that no longer one shots Enemies. 

this is the same general scope that MPrime is in. Enemies take percentual debuffs, that become only MORE effective as Levels go up, and your Weapons' and Abilities' contextual Damage goes down. 

 

your Weapon might go from killing with one shot to killing with 30, but that Status Effect only grew in power, since it affected a larger stat to begin with. it's always going to remove 75% of that Armor, which at high levels will easily surpass tens of thousands of effective Damage, while your Weapon is still stuck dealing a few thousand or whatever in straight up Damage.

 

if your Weapon deals say, 3000 Corrosive Damage and 300 Physical Damage - against an Enemy with 1000HP worth of survivability, yes, Status isn't that important, you kill it with one shot. make that 10,000 effective HP, and now you might start thinking about a growing problem, of enemy density staying the same or going up, and the number of shots to kill one enemy also going up...

make that 25,000 or 50,000, and now you definitely have a serious problem, to kill enemies with straight up Damage, they need to be permanently ragdolled or in a similar state simply because of how many shots it takes to kill one Enemy at that point. but wait, Status Effects! a 75% removal deals 37,500 'Damage'. that amount of Damage outclasses almost every Weapon in the game. and such an effect can easily be created with a single shot. do you know what sort of Weapon is capable of that much Damage in one shot? Vectis/Lanka and ParisP/Dread might. but those also deal with small numbers of targets at one time, what if we have an Automatic Weapon that can create those Status Effects on many Enemies? thereygo.

 

obviously you need to kill your Enemies eventually, and if your Weapons consistently remove 75% / 50% of an Enemies' survivability, that can only become more powerful, as it is not affected by scaling.

[Liminal]

I would like 150% if all status mods were calculated from the base value to minimize the benefits from stacking.

So a weapon with 5% gets 7.5% with a maxed status mod and +6% from both elemental/status new mods. That's 18.5% for 23 mod points and 3 slots. Most guns have more than that but, bearing in mind the cost, I think it would make status builds viable which (to me) would be a welcome alternative to the current optimum builds.
 

Of course the Thysis would get to 100% with just one mod, but it's not that powerful so it's cool.

[NikolaiLev]

No one fights level 1000 enemies. Not sure what the point to your argument is.

You're arguing about theoretical battles that no one actually does.

 

Well, sometimes they do.  I guess.

 

it already starts to apply at lv50, starting to, and absolutely applies around lv100.

 

Not really.  I've definitely fought these before, and not even with a potatoed Soma.

 

that proves my exact point. and nobody ever cares about Impact or Puncture Effects. it's the useful ones we care about -_-

specifically choosing the two least effective Status Effects and ignoring the effective ones makes for a very weak argument.

yes, all of your Infested are on a permanent Vortex / Tornado. that's a convenient situation. but it's a very specific one. 

 

if we talk about the other 3 factions, then Status Effects become more and more powerful compared to the straight up Damage your Weapon deals. tell me, which one is more effective? reducing Armor/Shields to 25% of their original, Health to 50% of it's original - or relying on the Damage from your... Sniping Weapon that no longer one shots Enemies. 

this is the same general scope that MPrime is in. Enemies take percentual debuffs, that become only MORE effective as Levels go up, and your Weapons' and Abilities' contextual Damage goes down. 

 

your Weapon might go from killing with one shot to killing with 30, but that Status Effect only grew in power, since it affected a larger stat to begin with. it's always going to remove 75% of that Armor, which at high levels will easily surpass tens of thousands of effective Damage, while your Weapon is still stuck dealing a few thousand or whatever in straight up Damage.

 

if your Weapon deals say, 3000 Corrosive Damage and 300 Physical Damage - against an Enemy with 1000HP worth of survivability, yes, Status isn't that important, you kill it with one shot. make that 10,000 effective HP, and now you might start thinking about a growing problem, of enemy density staying the same or going up, and the number of shots to kill one enemy also going up...

make that 25,000 or 50,000, and now you definitely have a serious problem, to kill enemies with straight up Damage, they need to be permanently ragdolled or in a similar state simply because of how many shots it takes to kill one Enemy at that point. but wait, Status Effects! a 75% removal deals 37,500 'Damage'. that amount of Damage outclasses almost every Weapon in the game. and such an effect can easily be created with a single shot. do you know what sort of Weapon is capable of that much Damage in one shot? Vectis/Lanka and ParisP/Dread might. but those also deal with small numbers of targets at one time, what if we have an Automatic Weapon that can create those Status Effects on many Enemies? thereygo.

 

obviously you need to kill your Enemies eventually, and if your Weapons consistently remove 75% / 50% of an Enemies' survivability, that can only become more powerful, as it is not affected by scaling.

 

I still don't really understand your point.  If status effects are so powerful, then weapons should be balanced around that.  If you're worried about the Soma being even more overpowered because the status mod was buffed, well... why don't we just nerf the soma anyways?

 

Overpowered weapons are overpowered.  Leaving things in a bad state just because overpowered weapons would benefit from them is silly.  If there are overpowered weapons, nerf them.  If there are underpowered weapons, buff them.  That's how balance works.

 

You don't stop improving the game just because balance issues exist.  You deal with balance issues and then move onto improving the game.

[taiiat]

Overpowered weapons are overpowered.  Leaving things in a bad state just because overpowered weapons would benefit from them is silly.  If there are overpowered weapons, nerf them.  If there are underpowered weapons, buff them.  That's how balance works.

but it's only becoming a major issue because we can expect to have 4 Status Elementals, plus other Mods that boost Status available.

 

i could load up a Machine Gun with Status boosting Mods, and only those (leaving out Mods that only boost Damage), and with just those Mods, a couple players could W + Mouse 0 through the entire game. level 1? obviously cake. lv1000? one Magazine if you get very unlucky. because you can divide the Survivability of your opponent multiple times per second. it'll only take a handful of shots to get the leftover Survivability to an insignificant state where the Damage can kill it.

 

this wasn't an issue before, but it seems it will be. i assumed the Toxin Status Elementals were a one off, assuming they existed just to promote Toxin. but now we have another type, and presumably two more of them.

 

with so much Status Boosting available, we'll need to halve the Status Chance on almost every Weapon in the game. otherwise as i said, not Status Chance, just Status.

[shut]

If they would just work additively... lalala

I would love the crap out of this. If there were a mod slot-expensive way to get your weapon to 100% proc (say, the base +Proc mod and a new dedicated Corrupted mod or something), I would be so happy.

 

Proc 2.0 removed the one thing that Proc 1.0 had nailed perfectly-- reliability. Bringing additive mods into the game would reintroduce reliability as an option without necessitating a full revamp of the system.

[Raigir]

Hammershot and stunning speed mods also don't have 'appropriate values' for their status chance values either. Hammershot is arguable, but I think it needs to be 15% like the other dual mods thus far.

[NikolaiLev]

but it's only becoming a major issue because we can expect to have 4 Status Elementals, plus other Mods that boost Status available.

 

i could load up a Machine Gun with Status boosting Mods, and only those (leaving out Mods that only boost Damage), and with just those Mods, a couple players could W + Mouse 0 through the entire game. level 1? obviously cake. lv1000? one Magazine if you get very unlucky. because you can divide the Survivability of your opponent multiple times per second. it'll only take a handful of shots to get the leftover Survivability to an insignificant state where the Damage can kill it.

 

this wasn't an issue before, but it seems it will be. i assumed the Toxin Status Elementals were a one off, assuming they existed just to promote Toxin. but now we have another type, and presumably two more of them.

 

with so much Status Boosting available, we'll need to halve the Status Chance on almost every Weapon in the game. otherwise as i said, not Status Chance, just Status.

 

The Tethra and Cicero mods are just overpowered.  That doesn't mean the base Status mod should be unusable.  That means those two should be nerfed to 20% or 30% and the dedicated status mod should be far higher.

 

I would love the crap out of this. If there were a mod slot-expensive way to get your weapon to 100% proc (say, the base +Proc mod and a new dedicated Corrupted mod or something), I would be so happy.

 

Proc 2.0 removed the one thing that Proc 1.0 had nailed perfectly-- reliability. Bringing additive mods into the game would reintroduce reliability as an option without necessitating a full revamp of the system.

 

Alternatively, it would be simple to replace the RNG nature of status to a reliable buildup per shot.  This would keep the system as is, except make it more logical.

 

So if your weapon has 10% status, you'll get a proc after 10 shots.  Status values will need to be tweaked accordingly, but then, they already do (among other things).

[Llyssa]

Um, as for "Why they should wait", currently, as far as they've described it, there are 3 groups of employees at DE:

1. The UI team, Pablo and Dorian

2. The friendly PR staff, Rebecca, Megan and friends.

3. People working on melee 2.0

 

Group 3 includes, from what I've gathered, somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 peeps. There is absolutely no one there to sit and balance these.

 

Further, melee 2.0 is going to radically change the way the game plays. That's the goal, that's the intent, that's the plan.

 

So to go ahead and change these NOW, and *then* radically alter the fundamental system the game works on...

 

would require them to be changed *again*, after melee 2.0 comes out.

 

So, you're asking them to dedicate resources they don't have...

 

...to a problem they'll be forced to fix again anyway....

 

...once they do have the resources to address it.

 

The entire rest of your logic is inconsequential to that fact. You've typed a great deal, but that's the underlying thing you're missing, and that's the simple answer to your question:

 

There's nobody to do it, and it would need to be re-done almost immediately.

 

That's all you need to know. That's the answer. It's an absolute waste of time, that benefits no one.

[shut]

-snip-

TIL that there are no DE members working on maps, optimization, bug fixes, new weapons, events, or Vay Hek.

[Zerrien]

Um, as for "Why they should wait", currently, as far as they've described it, there are 3 groups of employees at DE:

1. The UI team, Pablo and Dorian

2. The friendly PR staff, Rebecca, Megan and friends.

3. People working on melee 2.0

 

A lot of people work at DE. While most of them might be working on Melee 2.0, a lot of them are working on different projects. The Kubrow has been clearly advanced (in terms of new models, and new animations), concept artists are still churning on new concepts, and there are always bug fixes that need to be worked on. This Wednesday they did a major change to Frost's snowball.

[Llyssa]

A lot of people work at DE. While most of them might be working on Melee 2.0, a lot of them are working on different projects. The Kubrow has been clearly advanced (in terms of new models, and new animations), concept artists are still churning on new concepts, and there are always bug fixes that need to be worked on. This Wednesday they did a major change to Frost's snowball.

No, seriously, they've explained a few times, a few places: Everyone's projects are on hold to finish melee 2.0. Everyone. All the weapon makers, all the level makers, all the animators, everyone is doing whatever they can to work on melee 2.0. That's why we didn't even get a full 0.1 upgrade this last update--they haven't done anything else. They put in the stuff they had finished before(they've mentioned the frost thing was there, but they weren't sure on the numbers), they did a mini-nerf on the lights, and that's it.

 

Once they're past that, they'll be back to having teams working on multiple projects again, but until then, they've moved everyone possible to melee 2.0. Everything else moving forward needs melee 2.0 to be done first, so that's why they've dumped every resource they have into it.

[shut]

No, seriously, they've explained a few times, a few places: Everyone's projects are on hold to finish melee 2.0. Everyone. All the weapon makers, all the level makers, all the animators, everyone is doing whatever they can to work on melee 2.0. That's why we didn't even get a full 0.1 upgrade this last update--they haven't done anything else. They put in the stuff they had finished before(they've mentioned the frost thing was there, but they weren't sure on the numbers), they did a mini-nerf on the lights, and that's it.

 

Once they're past that, they'll be back to having teams working on multiple projects again, but until then, they've moved everyone possible to melee 2.0. Everything else moving forward needs melee 2.0 to be done first, so that's why they've dumped every resource they have into it.

Did they mention this in a livestream or something? I still find this somewhat difficult to believe.

Edited March 16, 2014 by SortaRandom

[taiiat]

The Tethra and Cicero mods are just overpowered.  That doesn't mean the base Status mod should be unusable.  That means those two should be nerfed to 20% or 30% and the dedicated status mod should be far higher.

absolutely. i wasn't implying the dedicated Status Mods should be useless. that's absurd. but i'm trying to actually remember that there's a lot of factors in Balance here, and these values need to be kept in mind, not just blindly editing numbers, because that'll end in more of a mess.

 

and perhaps the Nightmare Mods that affect Status should have less of an effect. that's certainly an option.

speaking of, a Corrupted Mod that deals in Status Chance sounds pretty awesome. not sure what the negative for that would or should be though.

[MeduSalem]

DE should have tweaked the Status Chance mods the second they thought about the Cicero Mods. Actually I can't imagine what they thought when they released a 60% Dualstat Mod and left the 15% Single Stat mod to rot in the sun so nobody gives a second thought about them anymore. My only reasoning would be they made it just to make the people shut up about how some of the Toxin mods, Contagious Spread for example, are near to impossible to obtain and how the Proc Chance on most weapons is too low.

 

On the road they probably forgot "Oh we have dedicated status chance mods already - let's tweak them to make them more reliable!", while they were adding the Cicero mods into the mod list. The very same happened for some unknown reasons with the Tethra's Doom mods. Had time to add those damn mods, but none for rebalancing the other Status mods?

 

Hell no... I often come to think whoever is in charge of balancing has his/her very own feeling about how things should be balanced and doesn't give a damn about the fact that there are truckloads of people complaining that there are many unbalanced mods out there. It's no offense... but they could at least give an official statement that it's not in their intention to balance stuff right now.

 

Also I don't know why they can't tweak it right now... It's not like that it requires great programing skill just to change a handful of numbers in a central mod-database - which I'm sure they have because everything else would be stupid and a total mess for code-maintenance and tweaking. Just bring that database up with whatever damn tool they are using and search&replace that sh*t. Takes like 5 friggin minutes to do. Can't imagine there are not 5-10 minutes of time for someone to do it in meanwhile.

 

Melee 2.0 takes a lot of time, yes, but it already boils down to a ridiculous excuse to why some stuff does not get looked at.

Edited March 16, 2014 by MeduSalem

[Zerrien]

Also I don't know why they can't tweak it right now... It's not like that it requires great programing skill just to change a handful of numbers in a central mod-database - which I'm sure they have because everything else would be stupid and a total mess for code-maintenance and tweaking. Just bring that database up with whatever damn tool they are using and search&replace that sh*t. Takes like 5 friggin minutes to do. Can't imagine there are not 5-10 minutes of time for someone to do it in meanwhile.

 

Melee 2.0 takes a lot of time, yes, but it already boils down to a ridiculous excuse to why some stuff does not get looked at.

 

I agree, and this sentiment extends out to a lot of the other suggestions out there. Instead of setting the gate even further (Badlands, Council (or... whatever it's called), and Focus,) how about we get a heavy design pass after Melee 2.0? I understand all the animators, and designers, and modellers, and sound guys, etc, are all focused very hard on Melee 2.0, but there are a variety of quality of life fixes that need to be implemented.

 

In this vein, a lot of work needs to be done on the mod system. DE shouldn't be afraid of tweaking any values, it's a beta, we'll understand if someone was over powered, or in the case, under powered. But to release Cicero and Tethra's mods, on top of a per-existing mod that doesn't do anything in comparison?

 

Less features, more focus on the current mechanics.

[Llyssa]

Did they mention this in a livestream or something? I still find this somewhat difficult to believe.

Yes, and they re-confirmed it with the explanation of why this last update was just a hotfix. It became a sort of goliath project. They finished "melee 2.0" a while ago, but they're going beyond the initial planning, because everyone was so excited, and it didn't deliver what they hoped for. Steve was calling the iteration under construction "melee 6.0" because of the scale of work going into it.

 

New animations, new weapon interactions, new mod interactions, new damage calculations, new parkour interactions, new enemy interactions, new UI interactions, new physics interactions... it's an across-the-board system upgrade that affects the way everything works. So virtually every team has something to do for it, except the PR people. The PR people just need to keep truckin' on PR.

 

The way it was described, I'm under the impression the UI team already has their section done(but they may still have work to do).  Everyone else is touching up everything else in preparation for this working.

 

Effectively, they're building a fighting game into the existing workspace. The only thing they admit they haven't put into it is juggling combo chains, and considering what they demonstrated that they actually are putting in, even that explanation isn't entirely true.

 

So, yeah. EVERYONE is on it, because, literally, they're making a second game using the existing resources and installing it into this one. It's actually kind of scarily ambitious.

 

They're working very fast(for making an entirely new game) because they already have the basics done(characters, weapons, physics, levels, UI, standard animations), but even with all of that, they're still making an entirely new game.

 

So, yeah, "we're making an entirely new game" seems like a valid excuse for why it's irrelevant to tweak something that, ultimately, needs to be re-tweaked for the entirely new game.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

Wow, I didn't know they were doing all of that with M2! Very impressive!

[NikolaiLev]

Um, as for "Why they should wait", currently, as far as they've described it, there are 3 groups of employees at DE:

1. The UI team, Pablo and Dorian

2. The friendly PR staff, Rebecca, Megan and friends.

3. People working on melee 2.0

 

Group 3 includes, from what I've gathered, somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 peeps. There is absolutely no one there to sit and balance these.

 

Further, melee 2.0 is going to radically change the way the game plays. That's the goal, that's the intent, that's the plan.

 

So to go ahead and change these NOW, and *then* radically alter the fundamental system the game works on...

 

would require them to be changed *again*, after melee 2.0 comes out.

 

So, you're asking them to dedicate resources they don't have...

 

...to a problem they'll be forced to fix again anyway....

 

...once they do have the resources to address it.

 

The entire rest of your logic is inconsequential to that fact. You've typed a great deal, but that's the underlying thing you're missing, and that's the simple answer to your question:

 

There's nobody to do it, and it would need to be re-done almost immediately.

 

That's all you need to know. That's the answer. It's an absolute waste of time, that benefits no one.

 

This was the same mindset that stifled discussion prior to damage 2.0.  Guess which side was right.  Because very few problems were solved as a result of damage 2.0, and many could have been.  Weapon balance is still in a horrible state, despite all the demands to "wait for damage 2.0."

 

As for the notion that "there's no one to work on it..."

 

TIL that there are no DE members working on maps, optimization, bug fixes, new weapons, events, or Vay Hek.

 

Yeah.  They can have at least one person working on balance, and they should.  Weapons, warframes, and mods are all in a terrible spot balance-wise, and the game would improve if balance did, because then we'd have more builds than the typical serration+split chamber+elementals+crit we have now.  We'd have more than soma+brakk+galatine.  We'd have more than nova+rhino+trinity.