Damage: What If All Mods Gave Damage?

[Drakontis]

it's easier to get all those before you even see serration let alone split or hell's chamber. Except for Riffle Ammo mutation got one and I don't even know where from.

The mods, certainly, but from my playing experience, I was so busy crafting and buying weapons, I burned through most of my credits before I could max much of anything when it came to mods. Plus saving up for a sentinel BP. 

[Drakontis]

For anyone saying, "But a new player can just rank up all these low mods and skip to Pluto!", I just made a new account and here are the mods I currently have after beating Vor, no fusions done yet.

Point Strike
Fusion Core (1-3 and 1-5)
Tail Wind (Zephyr ability mod)
Vitality
Rush
Redirection
Loki's Ability mods
Pressure Point x2
Reflex Coil x2

This is with no fusions done yet, and I went ahead and bought a Braton. So I'm currently sitting at 12,592 credits. So there's that as well. 

Edited March 13, 2014 by Drakontis

[AuroraSonicBoom]

How about we don't make the problem worse trying to fix the symptoms of a bad system and actually change Its the parameters to reduce the game's focus on damage?

 

Having the Lotus send new players who completed the Mercury system a set of essential mods should be enough to keep them going for now.

[zoboso]

I have a question I want the smarter people to explain to me: 

 

under what circumstances can a progression system not be set up to force the player to undertake a particular action in order to proceed?

 

i.e. circumstances that cause multiple options to be viable(damage 1.0), or prevents a dominant option from occurring(serration).

[Drakontis]

I have a question I want the smarter people to explain to me: 

 

under what circumstances can a progression system not be set up to force the player to undertake a particular action in order to proceed?

 

i.e. circumstances that cause multiple options to be viable(damage 1.0), or prevents a dominant option from occurring(serration).

One that enforces differences in kind as opposed to forcing to forcing the player into a straight upgrade path. Such examples are like League of Legends for an example, where all the time it seems there are people doing things that "break the meta". Another arguable example is Borderlands and Borderlands 2's upgrade trees, though with the expansion packs you usually have enough points to fill out all three upgrade trees. As a designer, to increase the amount of choice you have, you either have to take damage out of the players hands (No or few upgrades to damage, such as in many (but not all) shooters, making tactics more important than DPS), or find ways to make damage output be a choice (sometimes in the usage and choices of skills, other times by making weapons do different things, or making the damage customizable.)

I do like Warframe's damage system and how it works, but a lot of people feel there is a false freedom of choice and I see where they're coming from. In Damage 1.0, players were all but forced to put on Armor Piercing mods just to touch any enemies past a certain point. And even still there are 2-3 "required" mods that a player has to get in order to go toe to toe with, well, any enemy past a certain point. Tactics can only do so much, aiming for the head can only do so much. There are flaws and benefits in every system. As a developer, one has to find a way to counteract the possible flaws in their systems.

[luanle21]

I've seen the damage increase per level before. It's very similar to the idea I have, but it's scaling is a little different in how it's implemented. Mine is more interactive whereas the other is simply a passive thing you do. 

The Prime/Wraith/Vandal idea, however, is a new one, but I don't see it happening because it's not as viable Forma-ing EVERY slot and it's also going to step on the toes of people who have those items already from events or farming (Or both). 

hmmm i say yes

[Bibliothekar]

I do like Warframe's damage system and how it works, but a lot of people feel there is a false freedom of choice and I see where they're coming from. In Damage 1.0, players were all but forced to put on Armor Piercing mods just to touch any enemies past a certain point. And even still there are 2-3 "required" mods that a player has to get in order to go toe to toe with, well, any enemy past a certain point.

I'd really like to get rid of those base damage mods, so we'd only have mods that increase a specific type of damage (I/P/S). But so many people would cry about their max level Serration and Hornet Strike, that this most certainly will never happen. And combined elemental damage should be calculated differently. So that e.g. 90% fire and 90% electricity give 90% blast (and not 180%). 90% fire and 60% electricity would add up to 75% blast. And so on. At the moment, if you have all four elemental damage types equipped and maxed, you have more than quadrupled your damage - and that's without Serration or additional physical damage.

And physical damage mods should be balanced. Rifle and Shotgun give +30%, Pistol +60% and Melee +90%, the latter two at a lower energy cost even? Those numbers are just ridiculous ...

[Drakontis]

I'd really like to get rid of those base damage mods, so we'd only have mods that increase a specific type of damage (I/P/S). But so many people would cry about their max level Serration and Hornet Strike, that this most certainly will never happen. And combined elemental damage should be calculated differently. So that e.g. 90% fire and 90% electricity give 90% blast (and not 180%). 90% fire and 60% electricity would add up to 75% blast. And so on. At the moment, if you have all four elemental damage types equipped and maxed, you have more than quadrupled your damage - and that's without Serration or additional physical damage.

And physical damage mods should be balanced. Rifle and Shotgun give +30%, Pistol +60% and Melee +90%, the latter two at a lower energy cost even? Those numbers are just ridiculous ...

Mods are quite known for being all over the place in regards to both mod space and the bonuses they give out. Like, you can only get a bonus of 150 or so of base damage with a shotgun with both Blaze and Point Blank. It's so weird...

[taiiat]

ehhh... idunno. there is something good here, but exactly as it stands written out, probably not. 

 

but there's something good in here, i'm just not sure what. 

 

 

the idea is valiant, but in execution could end up with a longevity issue. at the very least, all of this should be used to inspire other ideas.

 

edit:

 

 

But so many people would cry about their max level Serration and Hornet Strike, that this most certainly will never happen.

seriously, if those people get THAT butthurt, they shouldn't have signed up for a game still in a stage where drastic changes happen.

the ToS / EULA contract clearly states the game is up for changes at any time, big and small, for the better of the game. if people want to stand in the way of that, if you ask me, step on the gas. 

i don't want people to feel bummed out either, but getting in the way of progression for the better of all is a disdainful action.

Edited March 16, 2014 by taiiat

[Drakontis]

ehhh... idunno. there is something good here, but exactly as it stands written out, probably not. 

but there's something good in here, i'm just not sure what. 

the idea is valiant, but in execution could end up with a longevity issue. at the very least, all of this should be used to inspire other ideas.

My interest is to make it so that straight up damage mods aren't necessary. Damage/Drawback mods are fine to me the way they are. But there have been so many threads about Damage mods being the devil, but taking them out entirely is inherently flawed with how this game works. 

Personally, I'd like to get around using mods like Hush and Eagle Eye without having to sacrifice some of the other mods I like to use. I also enjoy Status builds. (100% Corrosive proc on the Tysis ftw.) 

In regards to longevity, would you care to explain what you mean? As in longevity of use or longevity of the game or longevity of interest?

[taiiat]

In regards to longevity, would you care to explain what you mean? As in longevity of use or longevity of the game or longevity of interest?

longevity of Gameplay. as newer players move through the planets, because Common/Uncommon 3 and 5 Rank Mods are very easy to level, they'll have 'maxed' Mods very quickly. they won't have them by Venus, no, but they could have them after they leave Earth. they could have somewhere in the area of a R7 Serration in equivelant, and that paired with a couple other useful Mods on a Weapon, could end up making the earlier parts of the game (that are currently a challenge atm), like how 'Endgame' players currently see those Planets, Enemies which are so &!$$ easy that they die in just a couple shots from even the 'worst' Weapons.

 

a lot of players consider getting the high Rank Mods to 'max' a goal, and they consider themselves very accomplished once they do so.

moving that to smaller Mods that are much easier to Rank up but achieve the same stat total - effectively reduces the time a player spends upgrading throughout their play. 

 

which isn't bad, but i'd just as soon rather see the 'Endgame' end of these Mods and stats be changed, rather than the early end where players have a challenging experience already, and making it multiple times easier faster doesn't really solve anything, just results in more players getting to a point they often consider boring. i've seen many a Warframe player get bored and leave once they have one or two R10 Mods leveled, have played all Mission Types, and have found some Equipment they enjoy using. and at that point, they consider there to be nothing left for them to do, and they leave.

 

what many players don't understand, is they themselves want that 'Grind', because it's why they stay there. they don't actually enjoy the Video Games they're playing, they just want to get to the 'end'. and when they do, it's a 'lack of content' or 'repetitive gameplay' that is at fault.

which amuses me, as all Video Games fall under that category. not a single one is exempt from this. is that a bad thing? not really, no. it's just how things are. true longevity in a Video Game resides in truly enjoying the gameplay of the game for what it is. but that's a rare thing for a player to have happen, so to keep them invested, there needs to be many consectutive 'goals' for them. they need something to constantly be targeting. they need a sign pointing them in a direction.

if you don't believe me, listen to the average person playing a Sandbox game. they'll goof around for a few hours, then complain they're bored and there's nothing to do in the game and it's 'boring'.

 

it highly surprises me that players can be that... for lack of a better term - one dimensional and flat, but that's how the average player seems to be. 

without that Carrot in front of them to chase after, there's apparently nothing to do. which is ironic, because the exact same players complain that there's a Carrot to chase after. 

 

 

so to boil that down, players need something to be constantly chasing after, as that's what keeps the vast majority of players invested. they want to get to the end, even if there either is no end or that end is very bland and uninteresting.

like life, Video Games have no end goal. there is no destination, only a journey. it's up to you how that journey goes, and how interesting it is.

 

 

edit: more line breaks.

Edited March 16, 2014 by taiiat

[Drakontis]

Snippy snippy

I definitely see what you're saying there. I mean, I personally don't enjoy the grind. I enjoy just being able to play and, quite frankly, blow things up and kill things. I just enjoy that whole experience. I want to play WITH things, not play FOR things. It's why I enjoy Minecraft and Terraria. It's why I DON'T like how the loot system in Borderlands works. It's why I DON'T like item specific loot systems. I MUCH prefer building systems where I actually get to MAKE what I want. It's why I really do not like the way the void is right now, but why I don't mind farming pieces for things like the Galatine or the Stug. 

I understand that I don't exactly fit into the standard demographic. I like getting new toys to play with. I don't mind working for them, but I don't like having to grind the same mission a bajillion times for just one part that won't even show up! But that's a whole different matter.

I'd love to toy around with some different builds for weapons. Full reload/fire rate build on the Wraith Vipers? Hek yeah. A no worries stat build on the Grakata? Cool. But with more and more mods, it gets difficult to fit everything in AND also be able to pump out "acceptable" amounts of damage. 

[AhziDahaka]

Putting damage increases on everything seems to me to be like putting out a fire by dumping gasoline all over it.  It's adding another variable to balance to all the mods to get the same net effect as just...  getting rid of damage bonuses.

 

There's also the fact that it still links progress to something that is ultimately driven by the RNG, which is bad.

 

 

 

There's a better way to give players better progression in damage, and that's the weapons themselves.  Having players rely on the acquisition of new weapons to increase damage output is intuitive, provides a clear goal attainable regardless of RNG, and with mastery requirements on many weapons you have an indirect relationship between mastery rank and firepower.

 

What damage mods do exist should offer flat increases and be available early in the game.  This way, new players can use them to be eased into the game more smoothly, but later-game weapons would benefit more from other mods.

 

Elemental mods should actually decrease damage output in favor of elemental damage modifiers and procs, with that penalty decreased with mod level until level 5 eliminates it entirely.

 

Then, you have fire rate mods decrease accuracy and increase recoil.

 

 

 

This leaves multishot mods as the last remaining "must have" mod on everything, and perhaps the most problematic.  Having multishot use up the appropriate amount of ammunition (so as many as 2 or 3 rounds at once) doesn't work because of how ammo-efficient some weapons are (looking at you, Penta/Latron/Ogris/Lex/Grinlok/thelistgoeson).  Giving various weapons negative innate multishot (so you use more ammunition to fire one shot) would just make the way ammo works less intuitive.  As best as I can figure, it might be easiest to just let the concept of multishot go entirely.

[taiiat]

I definitely see what you're saying there. I mean, I personally don't enjoy the grind. I enjoy just being able to play and, quite frankly, blow things up and kill things. I just enjoy that whole experience. I want to play WITH things, not play FOR things. It's why I enjoy Minecraft and Terraria. It's why I DON'T like how the loot system in Borderlands works. It's why I DON'T like item specific loot systems. I MUCH prefer building systems where I actually get to MAKE what I want. It's why I really do not like the way the void is right now, but why I don't mind farming pieces for things like the Galatine or the Stug. 

i don't mind the 'Grind'. if within reason of course. as it's a supplement to the Gameplay already there, to continue to reinforce and give reason for me to stay around and continue enjoying myself.

and i ceratinly want to have a Gameplay i can just enjoy, and not be chasing some shiny diamonds because it's the new hip thing that is required to be 'viable'. i would much rather find that Equipment i really enjoy using, and just... use it. 

and i certainly get frustrated by Borderlands as well :/ (oh look, this special Quest Item that is the only version of this gun that is actually 'good', and you got a S#&$ one. hope you want to replay the entire game to get it all over again!). i tried to work with Borderlands but i always just end up giving up on the randomizer at some point and just making my own guns, forget that randomizer. i want this specific set of parts, because it's what i consider the most fun. 

Borderlands would do well to have a method to disassemble Weapons and build your own from those parts in the future. less people would be spawning gear then, because they wouldn't need to in order to just have fun. 

 

and yes, creating what you want is always the best. it's the most engaging, and guarantees that you're getting what you want. 

speaking of creating exactly what you want... check out Planet Explorers if you want to create your own content, 100% all out. we already have effectively a CAD program in our hands for creating vehicles and Weapons, and it'll only get more detailed as we go on! definitely a must play for people that like creativity.

[Drakontis]

and yes, creating what you want is always the best. it's the most engaging, and guarantees that you're getting what you want. 

speaking of creating exactly what you want... check out Planet Explorers if you want to create your own content, 100% all out. we already have effectively a CAD program in our hands for creating vehicles and Weapons, and it'll only get more detailed as we go on! definitely a must play for people that like creativity.

 

I could go on all day about Borderlands 2's flawed loot system. Such a pain finding fun legendary weapons. Especially since they spawned from ONE enemy which made it a complete hassle to get some of the equipment like the Impaler and the Hyperion Shotgun whose name eludes me. 

Also, I'll definitely look into that game, see if it sparks my interest.

Ahzi, making straight upgrades is still a flawed system, especially since a lot of players enjoy the feel of certain weapons and straight upgrades makes a lot of content, quite frankly, obsolete. I think this game would suffer from such a system.

As far as multishot goes, I'm on the fence about whether or not it should stay. It's a useful mechanic for some weapons (Shotgun type weapons), but blatantly very powerful for others (Ogris, Penta, etc). In addition, there's the discrepancy between Rifle Multi-shot (90%) and Pistol (180%) and Shotgun Multi-Shot (120%). And again, there needs to be balance between the modsets for different weapons and between different elements. But that's probably for another topic entirely. 

[taiiat]

Also, I'll definitely look into that game, see if it sparks my interest.

Ahzi, making straight upgrades is still a flawed system, especially since a lot of players enjoy the feel of certain weapons and straight upgrades makes a lot of content, quite frankly, obsolete. I think this game would suffer from such a system.

As far as multishot goes, I'm on the fence about whether or not it should stay. It's a useful mechanic for some weapons (Shotgun type weapons), but blatantly very powerful for others (Ogris, Penta, etc). In addition, there's the discrepancy between Rifle Multi-shot (90%) and Pistol (180%) and Shotgun Multi-Shot (120%). And again, there needs to be balance between the modsets for different weapons and between different elements. But that's probably for another topic entirely. 

i can't imagine how Planet Explorers wouldn't, honestly. endlessly creative player content(especially in the future as i imagine some of the prebuilt modules to make things compatible on the fly will grow in variety), and the art of the game is pretty out there to start with! :D

 

 

mmm, i wouldn't want Warframe to be 'yet another vertical progression game'. throw out content every few days and then result in... not enough content.

running exclusively on vertical progression isn't that great for creative choices - but mainly vertical progression needs a Development Team in the size that can rival the playerbase. that's not really something that's feasible, so it's just not a good idea.

 

 

Multishot is somewhat related here, i think. it is, frankly at this stage, Damage rebranded as something else.

i've always been on the fence about it, but i'll reiterate something i mentioned in a dedicated thread.

 

from an objective balancing perspective, Multishot is a bad idea and not worth the hassle, we're better off without it.

 

from a player perspective... :( Multishot is freaking cool, and making spray cannons spray more lead makes them feel all that more enjoyable. and that means i want to have it if i can.

 

(perhaps if Multishot halved Crit and Status Chance, as well as Damage, but doubled Projectiles. it'd be a bit of a niche thing then, but it's an option).

[Drakontis]

Snippy snippy

I don't want that either. Vertical progression sucks when you find a great weapon... and then have to replace it 5 minutes later due to damage falloff. Imagine if warframes, which are a considerable investment in time and currency, were the same way. You may very well have a revolt on your hands. 

[Barbetti]

I don't know about ALL mods giving a damage boost. For some reason, I feel like that's something that's good on paper but would turn out bad in implementation. I do, however, think the damage type boost mods and maybe the elemental damage boost mods should give an additional base damage boost, diving the effects of mods like Serration across multiple mods.

[Drakontis]

I don't know about ALL mods giving a damage boost. For some reason, I feel like that's something that's good on paper but would turn out bad in implementation. I do, however, think the damage type boost mods and maybe the elemental damage boost mods should give an additional base damage boost, diving the effects of mods like Serration across multiple mods.

Strictly speaking, every mod would give the same maximum straight damage boost when fully upgraded. This might require increasing the mod points of some mods or maybe even lowering points on others, but there is the potentiality that there would be unforeseen consequences, yes. 

[ratsroloc]

I like this idea, mainly because the current system we have is essentially a glorified game of rock paper scissors. And personally I don't tend to follow the rock paper scissors game anyway since for me at least corrosive and blast damage works well enough for my purposes. I'd honestly prefer to have Recoil Reduction and Reload Speed mods on a majority of my weapons but more than half my slots get taken up by ammo mutation, flat damage, and the Corrosive and Blast damage I tend to slot on just about everything.

[(PSN)atpbx]

thats not a good idea. you should have napped earlier.

 

putting 8 forma's on a weapon then suddenly have it jump even further in damage is ludicrous.

It would result in the same amount of damage as now, there are no damage multipliers being added.

The end result is the same, just the journey is different.

[Volume]

I dig it.

 

Easy fix for the serration problem without changing anything else.

[AhziDahaka]

The thing about the way the weapons are now is that there's already a vertical progression, though--there's a reason you see half the players running around using Soma or various clantech.  In fact, it's practically what we have now--with the same damage mods "mandatory" on every weapon, you get a situation where those modded values might as well be the base values.  Making it so all mods increase damage the same amount makes for the same situation--the only difference is that you have to put a bunch of mods on your weapon in order to actually get the "real" damage out of it.  So why not just remove that whole layer of escalating damage and simply say, "Here's the damage this weapon does, use your mods to help it fit your playstyle."

 

Don't forget that enemies can be made to fit such a system too.  Yeah, with the way enemies currently scale such a system would be pretty terrible, with massive differences between early weapons and late-game weapons, but the way enemy stats scale with level can be modified--and honestly, I think any change to the damage and modding systems would necessitate at least as much.  Additionally, those early small-flat-value damage-boosting mods could help bridge the gap between "tiers" of weapon as well.

 

 

 

I'm not gonna claim it's perfect--but I think as long as the modding system is basically free of restrictions like it is, anything that would be done is going to amount to so much as a band-aid.  Every weapon is going to end up being nearly the same cookie-cutter loadout when you can put any mod anywhere.  Changing that is something that would require a total overhaul of the mod system.

[BETAOPTICS]

This would probable the only solution to our current mod problem.

[Sebastianx]

However, there are frequent complaints of how damage mods take up space, how they remove your ability to put on a variety of mods. How things like Hush, Fast hands, Eagle Eye, etc, go untouched because they're just not viable in comparison to Serration and Heavy Caliber. There are some obvious solutions. Take out damage mods entirely, make the game entirely flat for damage, maybe make elemental damages change a part of your total damage and make mods like Piercing hit simply change the damage numbers, but keep them flat (10-10-10 versus 12-9-9 or 9-9-9 +3 Viral). 

Something that I also agree on. They need to go. We need a more understandable scaling...I mean right now I could give a rank 0 player a Synapse, and he'll have to play for MONTHS to get it to where I got mine, while if you give me any other new weapon, it takes me about 2 hours to make it top tier...that can't be right...scaling is just stupid, and in most part because of damage mods...wish they'd have done it like Mass effect 3 did.