Why Founders Pack Exclusivity Is Hard To Defend

[PoorCensored]

Care to elaborate?

 

You upset the people who wanted them to remain exclusive, you upset the people who have the limited edition item when people flood them with trade requests (and the holder has no interest in trading), you open the limited item holders up to exploitation (as they will likely sell for less than market eventual fair market value - as initially there is no benchmark), you open the door for a few people to create huge windfall profits in the player economy and grossly distort it, and you still don't please the majority of people who couldn't get the exclusive item before, because for all practical purposes, its still so far beyond their reach they will not be able to ever possess it.

And I'm sure there are more I haven't thought of.

 

Edit: I speak from experience. I have a Max's Severed Head in Team Fortress 2, which I got from my wife and I pre-ordering Sam & Max. While it was awesome that it was an thank you gift, I really just wished they'd make it craftable before I stopped playing (I don't know if its craftable now or not). It was a nightmare trying to wear it anywhere after they made it tradable. And lets not even talk about what Halos did to that community...

Edited March 16, 2014 by PoorCensored

[eksby]

You upset the people who wanted them to remain exclusive, you upset the people who have the limited edition item when people flood them with trade requests (and the holder has no interest in trading), you open the limited item holders up to exploitation (as they will likely sell for less than market eventual fair market value - as initially there is no benchmark), you open the door for a few people to create huge windfall profits in the player economy and grossly distort it, and you still don't please the majority of people who couldn't get the exclusive item before, because for all practical purposes, its still so far beyond their reach they will not be able to ever possess it.

And I'm sure there are more I haven't thought of.

Valid points, but it's better than not getting them at all. At least with trading, you can still have a chance to get them, even if it's ridiculously expensive. There are people I know who would do anything to get a hold of Excal Prime because Excal is their favorite warframe, and to not ever be able to get the prime version of him is greatly disheartening to them.

[PoorCensored]

Valid points, but it's better than not getting them at all. At least with trading, you can still have a chance to get them, even if it's ridiculously expensive. There are people I know who would do anything to get a hold of Excal Prime because Excal is their favorite warframe, and to not ever be able to get the prime version of him is greatly disheartening to them.

 

I disagree, for a number of reasons. Chances are most of the people you know still wouldn't be able to get it through trading. You have to find an active founder (or, heaven forbid, a professional trader) who has one that they want to trade, which seems unlikely. Then you have to have something that the other party wants, which probably isn't going to be anything you can get in game. Given the amount of platinum I've seen most Founders and pro-traders have on hand, you're not buying them off with platinum, and they tend to have most other in game items... which leads to the murky world of out-of-game trades, full of scams, heart ache, and worse...

 

If they are disheartened now, just wait until they get dupped in an out-of-game trading scam... They might go from disheartened to quitting the game all together, or worse...

Edited March 16, 2014 by PoorCensored

[eksby]

I disagree, for a number of reasons. Chances are most of the people you know still wouldn't be able to get it through trading. You have to find an active founder (or, heaven forbid, a professional trader) who has one that they want to trade, which seems unlikely. Then you have to have something that the other party wants, which probably isn't going to be anything you can get in game. Given the amount of platinum I've seen most Founders and pro-traders have on hand, you're not buying them off with platinum, and they tend to have most other in game items... which leads to the murky world of out-of-game trades, full of scams, heart ache, and worse...

 

If they are disheartened now, just wait until they get dupped in an out-of-game trading scam... They might go from disheartened to quitting the game all together, or worse...

Sure, it probably would be difficult to get one, but at least it means for the truly dedicated they can at least have a chance instead of no chance at all. And from the way you talk it sounds like you've never been seriously involved in an in-game market before...let me tell you that no matter how rare it is, someone will sell it. Yes, there are scammers, yes, it will probably be expensive. But it's much better than being barred from getting that exclusive item at all. 

[Valiant]

 

Exclusive items are bad. In all games. Across all platforms. They always divide communities. I don't like them when they are unobtainable pre-order bonuses in single player RPGs, I don't like them as limited time awards in MMOs.

Trading is almost always bad. They tend to create player run economies that work like a second game/job.

 

Not really, no, they aren't. Sorry to say it but exclusive items only really divide communities when they want everything and believe they should have everything. Been on countless games with exclusives and I've never seen so many complaints before; bridging on whining. Trading isn't bad. It keeps the essence of the 'exclusive' and gives the people who had that benefit the control over it. If they wish to exploit the benefits of setting a price, they can. They paid for it and they need to find a willing customer. The customer is just as bad as the seller.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Naith

[SleekGranpa]

This thread has  no sign of stopping, or even reaching an impasse, does it? Avarice is truly man's greatest flaw. Jesus.

[Brahmastra]

IMO they should release the founder package for a few months on PS4. Maybe even an Excalibur Prime Access pack for PS4 only and then reopen the program on PC for a month before the game goes out of beta (if that ever happens.)

[DJ_Redwire]

IMO they should release the founder package for a few months on PS4. Maybe even an Excalibur Prime Access pack for PS4 only and then reopen the program on PC for a month before the game goes out of beta (if that ever happens.)

 

This does not solve the problem, and actually makes it worse.

 

Months after a re-release, players will not only be asking "How/where can I obtain Founders items?" as they are right now, but they will also be asking "Well if DE re-released them before, why can't they re-release them again?" And suddenly we're in an impeding cycle of having to re-release exclusives over and over and over.

[Brahmastra]

This does not solve the problem, and actually makes it worse.

 

Months after a re-release, players will not only be asking "How/where can I obtain Founders items?" as they are right now, but they will also be asking "Well if DE re-released them before, why can't they re-release them again?" And suddenly we're in an impeding cycle of having to re-release exclusives over and over and over.

 

 

Like the OP said:

For other games:

1. Game is in beta, Founders Pack is offered

2. Founders Pack ends

3. Beta ends, game goes 'retail' (or 'production' stage)

 

This is the way I believe it should be. People don't know what they have/can get until it's gone, proven by the forum posts made by people.

Also PS4 never even had the chance to get a founder pack, why not give them a chance at least. It's not like us PC players will lose anything.

And there is no reason to go all negative about them being re-released 5ever lel.

[208firebird]

I wish it would come back i forgot to uprgrade and get lato prime ( sad face here ) but I would love to ahve other people have access to founder stuff

[Drivelikebrazil]

Since they're "only cosmetics" as several seem to say, just make them all skins and prime the gear again. Then the e-peen wagglers can have their 'thing that no one else has' and the anti-exclusive activists can have complete their pokedex. 

 

For the last time. DE considers Warframe to be platform independent. THERE IS ONLY ONE WARFRAME. Stop looking in the Codex if you cant handle the fact that YOU didnt earn something. The reason does not matter

 

Yeah, hate to tell you this, but you didn't EARN anything. You bought something. Funny thing is, tons of people like you that think they 'earned' founder items by buying them also got upset when people didn't 'earn' their prime parts because they could buy them when prime part trading came out. You're not special, you didn't achieve anything. You just exchanged cash for goods like every other consumer out there.

[CandyDragon]

Yeah, hate to tell you this, but you didn't EARN anything. You bought something. Funny thing is, tons of people like you that think they 'earned' founder items by buying them also got upset when people didn't 'earn' their prime parts because they could buy them when prime part trading came out. You're not special, you didn't achieve anything. You just exchanged cash for goods like every other consumer out there.

They exchanged cash for goods promised to be exclusive.

 

I don't see how this makes them jerks for expecting their purchases to be honored.

 

But clearly, entitled bastards for buying something with an incentive.

[DJ_Redwire]

Like the OP said:

For other games:

1. Game is in beta, Founders Pack is offered

2. Founders Pack ends

3. Beta ends, game goes 'retail' (or 'production' stage)

 

There's just one problem. As far as we can tell, and as far as we've been told, Warframe will never be 'retail.' Ever. That's almost even more certain than Founders not coming back. So sorry, I guess Warframe just isn't like the majority of 'other games.' 

[Drivelikebrazil]

They exchanged cash for goods promised to be exclusive.

 

I don't see how this makes them jerks for expecting their purchases to be honored.

 

But clearly, entitled bastards for buying something with an incentive.

 

Never said that expecting their purchase to be honored makes them jerks.

 

What makes people jerks is waving things around and acting like they are more important than other people. I take particular issue with people claiming that they 'earned' things that they just bought and treat people as if they are lazy or complacent, as indicated by the statement that you quoted. The post that I quoted included some of that smug attitude, so I saw fit to bash on it.

 

Founders having exclusive items they paid for is no big deal. The big deal comes with how DE tied those items into game completion. For the 'collector/achiever' player types this completely destroys their satisfaction in the game. They'll never reach maximum mastery points, they'll never finish their codices, and the game won't be as satisfying overall. Had they simply made the founder exclusives share mastery xp with their non-prime counterparts and left them out of the codex; or just made them exclusive skins for the excal/lato/skana prime and then let the founders have the primes long before anyone else, they would have a less passionate group clamoring for re-releases. I don't have enough patience to be a collector, so I don't really care, but I feel for the people who derive their satisfaction from that game objective.

[Brynslustafir]

If DE were to re-release the Founder pack, it would be a giant, blazing middle finger to everyone who bought a Founder pack. It would show that they don't respect the people who made it possible for Warframe to become as big as it is now. On top of all that, it would cause a lot of players to just outright quit. It would also earn Warframe quite a bit of bad press, which would prevent new people from even trying it. 

 

They aren't stupid. They know what would happen if they broke their promise. Any move that costs you more money than it earns you is a bad move in the business world. I guess some people just don't understand this. 

Edited March 16, 2014 by Plasmaface

[Ov3rd0se]

You just had to reply to this thread again. It was about to die off. -.-

[ThePoopHunter]

i feel like everyone just ignored the point of this thread, lol. I think op realizes that founders isn't coming back but is just explaining it from a new players point of view for all you people that are overly harsh when someone asks about founders.

[Brynslustafir]

i feel like everyone just ignored the point of this thread, lol. I think op realizes that founders isn't coming back but is just explaining it from a new players point of view for all you people that are overly harsh when someone asks about founders.

Nah. Not harsh enough. 

[PoorCensored]

Sure, it probably would be difficult to get one, but at least it means for the truly dedicated they can at least have a chance instead of no chance at all. And from the way you talk it sounds like you've never been seriously involved in an in-game market before...let me tell you that no matter how rare it is, someone will sell it. Yes, there are scammers, yes, it will probably be expensive. But it's much better than being barred from getting that exclusive item at all. 

 

I've had plenty of experience with in-game markets, dating all the way back to when you had to use AOL to get online... Out of games you'd be familiar with, I'd say Diablo II, Team Fortress 2, and World of Warcraft would be the most notable. I can say for myself, making it available for trade in ridiculously small and fixed quantities is not better than it being exclusive, for any of the reasons I mentioned. There are other ways to limit their distribution, such as a patronage or sponsor system. I gave one such example way up thread.

 

Not really, no, they aren't. Sorry to say it but exclusive items only really divide communities when they want everything and believe they should have everything. Been on countless games with exclusives and I've never seen so many complaints before; bridging on whining. Trading isn't bad. It keeps the essence of the 'exclusive' and gives the people who had that benefit the control over it. If they wish to exploit the benefits of setting a price, they can. They paid for it and they need to find a willing customer. The customer is just as bad as the seller.

 

I've been playing games online since the 1990's. The amount of discontent seems like par for the course for any game with exclusives.

 

As for trading... buyers and sellers are only on equal footing if they are equally informed. Pro-traders make there money/fun/whatever from buying low and selling high, which means someone somewhere has to get the short end of the stick. And I don't think its fun for people to get the short end of the stick, particularly in a co-op *game*.

 

Further, it doesn't help the problem. People who want exclusivity are not going to be happy if the untradeable items become tradeable; and you can actually end up with even fewer people having the items, as pro-traders horde them as status symbols or currency. Not to mention how bad a seller might feel when he realizes what he did and can't easily undo the sale.

 

Making the objects tradeable isn't a good option. But, again, I don't think DE has any good options.

 

This does not solve the problem, and actually makes it worse.

 

Months after a re-release, players will not only be asking "How/where can I obtain Founders items?" as they are right now, but they will also be asking "Well if DE re-released them before, why can't they re-release them again?" And suddenly we're in an impeding cycle of having to re-release exclusives over and over and over.

 

While I'm not against an unending cycle of re-releases, I do recognize that presents all sort of problems for certain segments of the community.

 

Like the OP said:

For other games:

1. Game is in beta, Founders Pack is offered

2. Founders Pack ends

3. Beta ends, game goes 'retail' (or 'production' stage)

 

This is the way I believe it should be. People don't know what they have/can get until it's gone, proven by the forum posts made by people.

Also PS4 never even had the chance to get a founder pack, why not give them a chance at least. It's not like us PC players will lose anything.

And there is no reason to go all negative about them being re-released 5ever lel.

 

Granted, I've a veteran gamer going way back to the Atari days... but this flow doesn't make sense to me, particularly Founders Packs. This isn't how I see a normal game, or even an indie start up game, come into creation. However, I will admit that normally avoid free to play games.

 

They exchanged cash for goods promised to be exclusive.

 

I don't see how this makes them jerks for expecting their purchases to be honored.

 

But clearly, entitled bastards for buying something with an incentive.

 

1) If you give someone money and feel you are owed something in return for it, or you feel someone is obligated to do something because they promised they would; you are feeling entitled. Entitled isn't a dirty word. Stop using it like one.

 

2) Staying true to your word is a virtue, but it can also have unpopular, negative, or hurtful consequences. It isn't always the best option, and can lead to crippling your ability to perform certain actions (such as the inability to raise taxes when the government needs money if you ran on a 'No Tax' platform, or want to buff the Primes, like DE may feel like doing). DE shouldn't have made the promise they did, but they did. It was a mistake, in my opinion. They can't go back and undo it, and any action (or even inaction) is going to be received poorly. The issue could be resolved if either the haves were willing to share or the have nots were willing to go without; but that's not going to happen. That's not human nature.

Edited March 17, 2014 by PoorCensored

[(PSN)octus]

OK NEW IDEA!!!

 

they dont bring back founders stuff.

 

they make a whole new thing and call it FOUNDERZ! that way its totally more awesome and all the OG's can be like "Whoa, now that its totally awesome!" and they wont even get mad cause its such a great idea. instead they just all turn their hats to the side and stand back to back with all of the other founders and cross their arms and say things like "word" over and over.

 

so in this new package its just basically all of the old stuff, but thats not what matters. cause the important thing is FOUNDERZ! aw yea!! just that name alone makes me want to play like a ninja(sort of, cause really only ash and MAYBE loki are real ninjas) in an unfinished game and give it all of my cash monies.

 

any other total homeboys down wit dat?

[Tiqalicious]

Whole lot of wishful thinking in here.

[Valiant]

I've been playing games online since the 1990's. The amount of discontent seems like par for the course for any game with exclusives.

 

As for trading... buyers and sellers are only on equal footing if they are equally informed. Pro-traders make there money/fun/whatever from buying low and selling high, which means someone somewhere has to get the short end of the stick. And I don't think its fun for people to get the short end of the stick, particularly in a co-op *game*.

 

Further, it doesn't help the problem. People who want exclusivity are not going to be happy if the untradeable items become tradeable; and you can actually end up with even fewer people having the items, as pro-traders horde them as status symbols or currency. Not to mention how bad a seller might feel when he realizes what he did and can't easily undo the sale.

 

Making the objects tradeable isn't a good option. But, again, I don't think DE has any good options.

 

Seen more outrage here than other communities. Too much 'I want, I want, I want'. I think the community here take for granted how much of this game is on offer, may be restricted by slots, but the stuff that counts is free. 

 

Short end of the stick? No one is forcing people to buy the items, no one was forcing us to buy the gear in the first place. It's about choice. There's no victim. You consented. If you want it that badly you should be prepared to pay the extra price; it's clearly worth more now than it was a while ago. The items still remain exclusive regardless, so that's a null point. Aside from that, people may collect and may never use, so what? I'm not sure how that is a factor against trading. That can happen now, let alone in the future with trading - how often do you see people using Excali Prime/Lato/Skana exactly? Making items tradeable is the best one. The numbers of the gear do not increase, they remain exclusive and the people who paid a considerable amount of money have that control. It's down to them. 

 

I'll say it again, DE have already said the gear isn't returning anyways so these debates are encouraging false hopes.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Naith

[Kaotyke]

Guys, just read this post: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/193212-founders-pack-end-all-according-to-de/page-14#entry2258789

 

and lock this thread, Rebecca herself has spoken, Founders items WILL remain exclusive.

[Zerrien]

Guys, just read this post: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/193212-founders-pack-end-all-according-to-de/page-14#entry2258789

 

and lock this thread, Rebecca herself has spoken, Founders items WILL remain exclusive.

 

It's a discussion for a reason. You really shouldn't just tell people to give up, everyone should be allowed to voice their opinions on the matter.

[OniDax]

It's a discussion for a reason. You really shouldn't just tell people to give up, everyone should be allowed to voice their opinions on the matter.

 

Give up on what? It's a done deal. Accept it. Opinions don't matter when DE has already put their foot down and made a decision.