Thelonious Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 You are imagining a fantasy example where a Soma has a 100% elec proc. Yes, that would be OP. No, that's not what will really happen in game. No, as I explained I'm imagining a realistic example of a 10% status chance rifle equipped with the mods we already have. There's a post in General asking about the max status we can get atm. Around 45% with multishot. That's near half my bullets proccing electric, on top of my Radiation+Cold damage. I don't know about that "half status chance than displayed", but my high status weapons (marelok, bows, lanka) proc as they're supposed to. They all average 70-80%, and do proc a lot. Like a lot lot. Maybe there's a bug to be fixed then. Seems strange this bug affects all weapons except the Tysis though... Have you filed a bug report? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeAura Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) No, as I explained I'm imagining a realistic example of a 10% status chance rifle equipped with the mods we already have. There's a post in General asking about the max status we can get atm. Around 45% with multishot. That's near half my bullets proccing electric, on top of my Radiation+Cold damage. It's 50% damage increase half the time to nearby enemies. That's still an extra 25%*#Enemies crammed in to a small AoE. While focusing for dps will net less proccs, but each procc will deal more damage. 10%(Boosted by multishot too, so let's say about 20) and 50% will be 10%, boosted by the extra 30% dps. effective damage boosts assuming Procc build is base 100% damage. 100%+25% 125 130%+13% 143 This means that for 30% less dps, Proccs will gain less than 30% more damage comparatively, in exchange for more CC. And Procc based weapons tend to be a fair bit weaker in terms of dps than non procc counterparts which tend to have lower than average procc chances. Numbers are fairly rough. Edited March 19, 2014 by LukeAura Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notionphil Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) No, as I explained I'm imagining a realistic example of a 10% status chance rifle equipped with the mods we already have. There's a post in General asking about the max status we can get atm. Around 45% with multishot. That's near half my bullets proccing electric, on top of my Radiation+Cold damage. Remember, nearly all procs cause damage whether we choose them or not! Allowing us to choose an Elec proc, versus getting [gas, elec, bleed, bleed, elec] is still not going to have a significant effect on DPS. We're dealing that damage either way! I don't know about that "half status chance than displayed", but my high status weapons (marelok, bows, lanka) proc as they're supposed to. They all average 70-80%, and do proc a lot. Like a lot lot. Maybe there's a bug to be fixed then. Seems strange this bug affects all weapons except the Tysis though... Have you filed a bug report? I have seen threads saying the Tysis procs at 100% when 100% is shown. I'm not sure if 100% works like that on all weapons, as I haven't any others which can attain it. However, I have not tested Tysis to confirm or deny that. I have tested AkMagnus and Grak, and they proc ~half as often as shown on the Arsenal. I will test again this evening. I am not of the opinion that an average weapon should be able to attain an actual 45% proc chance with a 30% DPS reduction. Again though, this has nothing to do with choosing your proc - the proc will still go off, and damage will still be done no matter which proc it is. Edited March 19, 2014 by notionphil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonious Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) Remember, nearly all procs cause damage whether we choose them or not! Allowing us to choose an Elec proc, versus getting [gas, elec, bleed, bleed, elec] is still not going to have a significant effect on DPS. We're dealing that damage either way! In that same example, that's the thing, Radiation and cold don't deal additional damage. So your setup (Example B in that case) would be a net dps increase. Whatever the status chance. And you can't say there's a trade off, since the electric CC is just as efficient, objectively, than the CC offered by cold or radiation (even if the mind control is nice sometimes ^^). Not to mention the AOE damage, that our mathematician comrade seem to have left out. That's why I implied it was a tad too much. That's just one example, but I'm pretty sure I can find many others, without even taking status chance into consideration It works with Fire too for starters. CC+damage, not AOEand a dot, electric seems like a better choice :p A Corrosive setup that deals Electricity works too. Weapons are so strong that a single corrosive proc won't make much difference, but an electric proc...Boom, double damage. Same goes, Magnetic Damage with electric Proc. Great against Corpus. Electric Proc OP... You see what I mean? you can get the benefits of elemental weaknesses AND get a good proc at the same time. There is no win/lose in this, it's all win/win. No trade-off. When aaaaaall of Damage 2.0 is about trade-off. Again, more elements means less chance to proc the one you want. The next step is to ask to be able to add any element and elemental combination to a weapon. Corrosive+magnetic for the void, Radiation+Corrosive for Grineer, Corrosive+Gas for Infested...Easy win. Not even have to think about it. /Hyperbole And then there's physical procs, I agree that something has to be done. In that case your system would work, since you need to sacrifice a mod slot to be sure to proc the good physical status. There is a trade off. Even if again, I don't like the idea of being able to chain-impact a single enemy. Because 20% status chance on a 10 rof rifle is enough for that. And that's easy to get. Talk about challenge here... Edited March 19, 2014 by Thelonious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notionphil Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) --- Even if the 40% proc rate you are basing this on were correct, the electric gun would still do far less damage when modded for status. Lets compare 10 shots of a 10% status, 10 damage weapon: Modded for DPS, 10% status: 10 damage per shot. (+50% per electric shot) 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 ,15 = 105 damage. VS Modded for 40% Status, lose 30% DPS: 7 damage per shot, (+50% per electric shot) 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 10.5, 10.5, 10.5, 10.5 = 84 damage So, with 40% status, and 100% electric, you are still doing over 20% LESS damage. However, in reality, you aren't getting 40% proc rate, you are getting around half that. So really you'll end up with 77 damage. Just ran 3 exterms with my 30% marelok...procs are definitely not happening as much as the status % indicates. I'm getting about 1-2 procs per 10 shots.That's rather close to what avg weapons are going to end up with as far as real world procs. Please do your own testing. Edited March 19, 2014 by notionphil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittyDarkling Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 What if I want corrosive AND impact procs, but not slash or puncture? I think your system looks soild and as is I give you my +1, but I feel there's no need to stop at the first and second slots. Why not go for the whole top row? That way you can have 2 combined elements, or a combined and a physical, or multiple physicals, ect.. I feel like it would work quite well like that, what are your thoughts? Also physical damage mods would have to be buffed for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeAura Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) You see what I mean? you can get the benefits of elemental weaknesses AND get a good proc at the same time. There is no win/lose in this, it's all win/win. No trade-off. You're saying that as if that's a point in your favour, not the entire point on which this argument is around. The elimination of the tradeoff is part of the purpose of the idea. If you do disagree with that their really is no argument to be had. Simply a disagreement of opinion. Currently, no one picks Procc choice over damage because damage is superior. seeing as you can't control procc. And no one is willing to sacrifice going from Corrosive/Radiation damage to electric on the grineer, as that would take them from dealing extra damage to losing a large chunk on most heavies, even if CCing them ammo efficiency would take a huge hit. There is no trade off right now either, because procc is just worse most of the time. Also, the AoE range on most procc is less than 4 meters. It's not like you're CCing and boosting damage to an entire zone. You're hitting maybe 2-3 extra guys, tops, on occasion. And, heat deal 50% damage per tick, and deals around 7 ticks. This amplifies damage to a single target. so Electric isn't Op compared to heat, it's just better at tiny crowds while heat is better at single targets. Personally, I'd rather take heat and slap a fire procc on to every target instead of Shocking them all. And if everything becomes a procc build, simply because it's better than damage, we would then at least see people making choices on proccs, that would have fairly significant effects, as procc effects are a lot harder to compare than damage. It might not be perfect, but it is significantly better than what currently exists. Edited March 19, 2014 by LukeAura Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonious Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 -snip- Ok we're just throwing numbers? 10% status chance, normally: 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 = 100 damage + 1 proc (bleed/impact/puncture/cold/radiation) 10% status chance, with your suggestion: 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 15 = 105 damage+stun+aoe damage, guaranteed. 5% more dps guaranted, guaranted stun and aoe damage. Just by changing your mod setup Basically anything with an electric proc would add ----> (status chance*0.5)% =5% more dps+aoe damage+stun Fire proc is better, deals 350% damage total ----> (status chance*3.5)% = 35% more dps+stun Toxin is even higher, 450% ----> (status chance*4.5)% = 45% more dps Gas is just an aoe toxin. On a 10% status chance weapon. Free of charge. Again, just by changing your mod setup. In reality, especially for us veterans, those elements are often combined, therefore we can't proc them for damage, and physical statuses keep them from proccing all the time. Even if you had only 1 elemental mod equiped on an average physical weapon, it's singular proc chance is divided by 4 (chance to proc bleed/impact/puncture), which in the end is not that much more dps (still around 10% for toxic and gas though). Or you could go pure single element, on an elemental weapon (pure electric on synapse), but lose both damage and elemental weaknesses. Which is kinda inefficient. Well, pure toxin works on Corpus crewman. Of course you've got your viral that basically slashes your ttk in half. And same with shields and Magnetic. The rest are CC's, and don't deal additional damage. Jeez, procs are kinda strong. I don't get why they rely on rng so much. /sarcasm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonious Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 The elimination of the tradeoff is part of the purpose of the idea. If you do disagree with that their really is no argument to be had. Simply a disagreement of opinion. Hmm, I guess. If balance is not part of the discussion, then I preached to the wrong choir. But I'm sure there are ways of improving the status mechanics without removing the sense of trade-off, essential to depth and balance (as in meaningful choices, not just slapping the most damaging status in your setup, since this game is all about dps it seems). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varzy Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) Ok we're just throwing numbers? The 10 represented a build optimized for DPS, the 7 was the status version. What you've described in the post isn't actually a problem in-of itself, I believe, as you've basically described a miniaturized version of this proposal itself. See, up until now we've discussed status build vs raw DPS. However, you're pointing out a perceived problem with the effects that status will have on raw DPS when compared to our current system. But, the way I see it is you've exposed an intricacy in this proposed status system, as within raw DPS there's yet another customization debate about which status to use. Do we fully maximize our DPS with a 10% Fire or Toxin proc? Or do we add CC with 10% Electricity, Gas, or Cold proc? Or utility with Radiation, etc? You've actually brought to light the revelation that this proposed change is a lot deeper than we've realized. edit - plus, if this system goes into place there's no reason why the DoT fire or toxin deals can't be toned down, either through less ticks or a lower damage %. Edited March 19, 2014 by Varzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notionphil Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) Jeez, procs are kinda strong. I don't get why they rely on rng so much. /sarcasm Your overall concern is if a weapon has only one type of proc, it will be OP, right? You realize that single proc weapons are already here right? Phage [+dam][+ele][+tox][+spd trig] Ignis [+dam][+heavy cal][+fire][+ice] [+ele/stat][+tox/stat][vicious spread][+multi] [+fire rate][+multi][+wildfire][+spd trig] That is already in game. Detron is already in game. Castans can be turned into pure Tox as well, or run as pure Elec. Ignis can be run as pure blast. More and more elemental weapons will be added to the game and nearly all of them can be easily run as single proc. Do you have a problem with the Phage, Ignis, Castans and Detron? Did their single procs break the game? No, they didn't. Or are you somehow saying that only elemental weapons should get access to a single proc type, because if any other weapons get it, they will be somehow be OP? Look, the last thing I want is a DPS increase. I just want some frigging build variety in the weapons. If you believe specific single-procs are OP, rally to get those procs fixed. You will have supporters, including myself. However, don't rally to keep the entire proc system in handcuffs; yet another factor leading to zero build diversity which is far worse than X% 'free' DPS (that elemental weapons already get). Basically anything with an electric proc would add ----> (status chance*0.5)% =5% more dps+aoe damage+stun Fire proc is better, deals 350% damage total ----> (status chance*3.5)% = 35% more dps+stun Toxin is even higher, 450% ----> (status chance*4.5)% = 45% more dps Gas is just an aoe toxin. I have conducted limited tests with proc DoT stacking, and my results with Toxin and Heat indicate that they do not stack and instead overwrite. However, viral appears to stack. Magnetic also appears to not stack. However, please do your own tests. If I am correct, those procs will not add the DPS numbers you believe. Additionally, if procs do stack, they'd need to be fixed before this change. Edited March 20, 2014 by notionphil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davoodoo Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Ive seen claims about uber awesome 2k/sec bleed or toxin, but lets consider how high is it compared to completely stripping armor of grineer and making them take over 3k per shot from boltor prime which shoots at steady rate of 13 per second or viral cutting enemy hp by a pretty big margin. Even 30k dot would still be inferior compared to beneftis viral and corrosive can bring into fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScorpDK Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) Personally I would prefer weapon mods to each roll the dice to see if they can proc or not. So 20% proc chance gives EACH of them a chance to deal damage, NOT just ONE OF THEM. Yes, that makes 100% proc builds powerful, but that is the entire point of building up a weapon in such a way - just the same as a 100% crit weapon deals the crit on every single projectile fired, be it Multishot or Shotgun pellet. Edited March 20, 2014 by ScorpDK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeAura Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Personally I would prefer weapon mods to each roll the dice to see if they can proc or not. So 20% proc chance gives EACH of them a chance to deal damage, NOT just ONE OF THEM. Yes, that makes 100% proc builds powerful, but that is the entire point of building up a weapon in such a way. That rather brings us back to one of the problem we had in damage 1.0. A freezing guy on fire. Although, I'm not sure how many other contradictions actually exist other than that one, which isn't even possible to have on a weapon anymore because of the way mods combine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonious Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) Your overall concern is if a weapon has only one type of proc, it will be OP, right? Not exactly. The issue is not inherent to the weapon, but to the proc mechanics themselves: if you can proc only one thing, then you would proc too much of that thing. Therefore huge dps spikes, chain CC's, without any loss of dps. Of course DE could nerf the proc rates... I thought it was obvious that Elemental weapons were designed around the idea of being able to proc more regularly than physical weapons. If not you'd have no reason (except for the gimmicks of firing a death ray) to chose them over physical weapons. They are specialized, they have a niche. Detron is the anti-Grineer Brakk, Phage is a Viral-proccer, Tysis a corrosive-proccer... That seemed pretty obvious to me... Your suggestion would make any weapon in the game just as good at procs as any elemental-specialized weapon. You could proc any element with any weapon for that matter. Good for customization, bad for weapon diversity. I mean, there's a reason we have 3 different bows, and their physical attributes influence their procs just as much as their damage. I like the dread more than the paris prime, not because of the damage, but because of the proc. If you can make the Paris Prime just as good at bleeds as the Dread, I might as well just throw it away right now. But I'm a jerk anyway. I'm good at pointing out eventual flaws in ideas, but don't ask me if I have any solution ;p I don't know, the status mechanics work just like loot dilution in the game: lots of useless stuff, and once in a while what you really want. It is, after all, a double-rng system: rng to proc, and then rng to chose what it procs. God, they're really putting that everywhere. So, same suggestions than loots then: - a skill factor? like more procs on headshots or in the back of an enemy? - And yes, a way to chose what you proc. Or at least influence it greatly. Like when you need to go to a specific void to get a specific loot... hmm...I kinda like the solution of basing it on damage proportion. Damage after mods. I think someone suggested something like [element damage]/[total weapon damage]*100=[element proc chance]% If you really really specialize for one element and one element only (like having 2 dual mods+2 normal mods), even on a physical weapon, you are rewarded by a far greater proc chance for that element. Elemental combinations are more likely to proc than single elements. Sounds fair enough. But you can't make say, a bleeding Hek. You need to have a Tigris for that. Let's keep weapon diversity as a relevant factor. But ofc for that, physical damage mods need to be balanced anyway. Edited March 20, 2014 by Thelonious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScorpDK Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) That rather brings us back to one of the problem we had in damage 1.0. A freezing guy on fire. Although, I'm not sure how many other contradictions actually exist other than that one, which isn't even possible to have on a weapon anymore because of the way mods combine. actually, no. You cannot have fire and ice on the same weapon. it would be Explosive. They rolled the damage types together for that specific reason. Edited March 20, 2014 by ScorpDK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenosInfinity Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 The immediately obvious issue with this is the existence of weapons with a D polarity in the first slot. Only weapon mods that go with that are ice elemental. Other than that, I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeAura Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 It is, after all, a double-rng system: rng to proc, and then rng to chose what it procs. God, they're really putting that everywhere. Well, at least we can all agree on this. >_> But you can't make say, a bleeding Hek. You need to have a Tigris for that. Let's keep weapon diversity as a relevant factor. But ofc for that, physical damage mods need to be balanced anyway. I'd say that'd require a small tweak to change proccs from based off total damage, to based off procc types damage. So you could have a bleed Hek, but it would be far inferior to a Bleed Tigris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notionphil Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) - While I appreciate the feedback, and some of it is helpful (like the fact that procs will have to not stack if this happens), I feel that you're mostly just debating to debate. Given that single procs are already here and it didn't cause armageddon, I'm pretty confident it will be OK if other weapons get single procs. I don't find it apparent that element weapons are designed to proc more. They have about the same Status as non-eles. They don't offer any tradeoffs to mitigate the single proc benefit. You call them niche for some reason, but actually some are among the best DPS weapons in game...and they are being added with increased frequency. Honestly, the fact that only they can single proc (but have no tradeoffs) makes me think it's simply a hastily thought out system designed with no rhyme or reason. The fact/benefit that they can single proc probably never even occurred to DE. I do agree with one point you made, that allowing all weapons to choose a proc will slightly reduce the 'uniqueness' of ele weapons, but in reality, most people just throw a rainbow build on everything anyway. Tysis aside, most people are using ele weapons for the damage types, not the procs...again BC the status chances aren't particularly high on any but tysis. RE: build based on dmg. Better than current system, but don't forget the game funnels you into a set build versus each faction. Thus, again, no real build diversity. Want to use a Elec proc against Grineer? Bam, 75% DPS gone, at a minimum. I'm all for tradeoffs, but that's absurd. Either way; I think the original post is a solid idea which will give players some meaningful build diversity. I'll add some suggestions for evening out proc strength to the OP, thanks for helping flesh some of the concerns with that out. Thanks for your input. Edited March 20, 2014 by notionphil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notionphil Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 The immediately obvious issue with this is the existence of weapons with a D polarity in the first slot. Only weapon mods that go with that are ice elemental. Other than that, I like it. Forma! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varzy Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 The appeal of pure elemental Damage weapons isn't to get specific procs, it's to exploit elemental weaknesses. After all, even pure elemental weapons can be modded to get additional elemental Damage. In cases like Tysis, Penta and Phage you can even get 3 elements, so the current system hardly guarantees a specific proc with said weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonious Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 While I appreciate the feedback, and some of it is helpful (like the fact that procs will have to not stack if this happens), I feel that you're mostly just debating to debate. Given that single procs are already here and it didn't cause armageddon, I'm pretty confident it will be OK if other weapons get single procs. Actually, it did cause a small "armageddon". I mentionned it in my first answer. It took only 2 weeks for DE to add the other 2 physical attributes to the Flux Rifle. Damage in itself was barely changed, it still is a slash based weapon, but it resulted in a dilution of procs, both bleed and elemental. Apparently they didn't want us to have a Dot proccer (like having bleed and Gas/Fire proc constantly). When I look at how much dps it added, I understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liminal Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Actually, it did cause a small "armageddon". I mentionned it in my first answer. It took only 2 weeks for DE to add the other 2 physical attributes to the Flux Rifle. Damage in itself was barely changed, it still is a slash based weapon, but it resulted in a dilution of procs, both bleed and elemental. Apparently they didn't want us to have a Dot proccer (like having bleed and Gas/Fire proc constantly). When I look at how much dps it added, I understand. But an Ignis can trigger specifically those alone. So can the Acrid. I don't think the Flux change was because of that reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonious Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) Actually Ignis has one of the worst proc rate of all weapons (1% per ammo), and Acrid's base damage nerf and mechanics change makes it barely viable against Corpus. Unless you like gimping yourself... Somehow balanced, again. You can't find a weapon available that lets you "abuse" procs without losing a lot in exchange. Yet. They only have to release a gas element weapon with a decent dps and proc rate. Maybe they will. But I'm pretty sure procs would be accounted for in the balancing, and that it would depend a lot on procs to deal decent damage. But in general, weapons that deal damaging procs either: - get their proc rate diluted, as you can see on all physical damage weapons, especially slash (see Flux) - Have a terrible proc rate (Ignis) - Have a terrible dps (Acrid) - Have a crippling mechanic of some sort (Phage, bows, lanka, synapse's range...) And probably other stuff and weapons I can't think of. I'm not saying it's a good thing: You can't exploit procs at will because they'd be so strong if you could, but you can't make them interesting either without losing a lot of what's essential. Trade Off. Edited March 20, 2014 by Thelonious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notionphil Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) Actually Ignis has one of the worst proc rate of all weapons (1% per ammo) Actually the Ignis has the .19 procs per shot - same as the Boltor Prime, Penta, Karak, Burston, Dera and the Hind. More than the Soma(.13), Gorgon and Braton (.1) You can't find a weapon available that lets you "abuse" procs without losing a lot in exchange. Dude, are we playing the same game? "Exchange"? "Abuse"? DE does stuff because they think its "Awesome". Period. A viral tentacle gun is "awesome". That's why they make it the best shotgun in game, WITH a proc to halve enemy HP. A sleek radiation firing hand cannon is "awesome", thats why it has the best range and is the 2nd best DPS handcannon. Despite the single-ele procs on those and other "awesome" weapons. You're dealing with the game that contains Nova, and Rhino Prime, Trinity, Marelok, Soma, Boltor Prime, Detron and Phage. You think single-proc is a concern to them? A frame that is invulnerable just got a buff. Because its "awesome". DE is awesome at "awesome". They are not awesome at nuanced theoretical balance. Give credit where it's due, and look at the track record. The facts just don't support your opinion - DE is simply not making single proc weapons weaker or less effective. If anything, they are stronger and more effective - even without the proc. It's time to stop arguing that this can't/won't happen and instead give nums/suggestions to balance it. Edited March 20, 2014 by notionphil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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