Procs Should Match Your First Mod Slot [Img]

[XenosInfinity]

Forma!

It shouldn't be compulsory to use a forma on a weapon to get rid of one of its base polarities in order to not lock you into a single proc type. Especially when one of those weapons is Boltor Prime, which takes considerable effort or expenditure to complete. The idea as a whole is good, but it would need to come with free movement of all polarities on a weapon - not just those added manually by forma use - to stop that being an issue.

[notionphil]

It shouldn't be compulsory to use a forma on a weapon to get rid of one of its base polarities in order to not lock you into a single proc type. Especially when one of those weapons is Boltor Prime, which takes considerable effort or expenditure to complete. The idea as a whole is good, but it would need to come with free movement of all polarities on a weapon - not just those added manually by forma use - to stop that being an issue.

 

Great comment.

 

You wouldn't be locked into a single proc type. You can simply not put any damage type there, and the weapon will proc randomly as it does now.

 

DE intentionally makes some weapons come with poor default polarities, so they require more customization to unlock their potential. It's a 'difficulty of acquisition' balancing/tiering factor.

 

This would be an extension of that.

Edited March 20, 2014 by notionphil

[Thelonious]

Actually the Ignis has the .19 procs per shot - same as the Boltor Prime, Penta, Karak, Burston, Dera and the Hind. More than the Soma(.13), Gorgon and Braton (.1)

Hmm. I read 10% status chance per second, with a fire rate of 10. that's 1% per ammo.

 

 

The facts just don't support your opinion - DE is simply not making single proc weapons weaker or less effective. If anything, they are stronger and more effective - even without the proc.

 

I'm not saying they're weaker or less effective, how don't know where you read that.

I'm saying there is always a cost to pay if you want to profit from procs on those.

 

Phage is sure good, but you need 1 whole second focusing the beams to get the maximum out of it, each time you start firing.

Otherwise it has a base 2% chance to proc per tentacle (and 1/7th of its damage).

That balances the fact that it's so powerful and so great at proccing Viral.

 

Imagine if you had a guaranteed Viral proc on something like the soma (even with its pitiful 7% proc chance...) 

 

And Scott mentionned many times how cautious he got with the proc system...Maybe he didn't do such a bad job after all.

Maybe he learned from the mistakes of Damage 1.0 where procs trivialized most of the content with Chain-CC's through 1 single elemental mod equiped on your weapon (you didn't have to have the full rainbow for that, just 1 mod). He mentionned that too during livestreams before Damage 2.0 was released.

 

And you're gonna scream again: BUT WE ALREADY CAN.CHAIN PROC

And I'm gonna answer: yes, but on specific weapons with a specific setup, not on demand with every cookie-cutter build around like you suggest.

 

How come you can't get that? 

[Solaris11]

Ahem...

 

Castanas, Phage, Lanka, Ignis, Synapse, Dual Ichor, Detron, Tysis, Stug, Prova, Lecta, Acrid,Torid, Scoliac...All have a 100% chance of getting one specific proc.

 

Some even proc the more powerful Dual elements. Pretty sure DE is not afraid of single proc weapons.

 

The answers to all of your questions is: the current proc system is a work in progress which is why we're getting new +60% status mods that also have DPS.

 

Actually, you missed his point.

 

From what I understand a big part of the reason DE changed things was to eliminate chain-stunning and/or perma-freeze and the effects that had on "high level" play.

 

Your suggestion allows Grakata to be turned into a perma-stunlock Blast Weapon or a perma-slow Cold Weapon and DE to the best of my knowledge is clearly against that.

 

You may not like/appreciate his tone but Thelonius is right in saying this isn't going to happen.

[LukeAura]

So are we back to the drawing bored then?
Currently Proccs are little more than a gimmick. They just feel tacked on to Damage 2.0, and are fairly weak.
 

 

Your suggestion allows Grakata to be turned into a perma-stunlock Blast Weapon or a perma-slow Cold Weapon and DE to the best of my knowledge is clearly against that.

 

You may not like/appreciate his tone but Thelonius is right in saying this isn't going to happen.

Saying this isn't going to happen doesn't contribute to the idea. 

A perma stunlock/perma cold weapon would come with a loss of dps and ammo efficiency, the issue in D1.0 was that stun+dps+Efficiency were the entirely same build. Especially on a bullet hose like the grakata, the stunlock idea is now unviable.
CC effect proccs+Damage would need a bit of a rebalance but that would be about it.
 

[notionphil]

Hmm. I read 10% status chance per second, with a fire rate of 10. that's 1% per ammo.

 

 

 

I'm not saying they're weaker or less effective, how don't know where you read that.

I'm saying there is always a cost to pay if you want to profit from procs on those.

 

Phage is sure good, but you need 1 whole second focusing the beams to get the maximum out of it, each time you start firing.

Otherwise it has a base 2% chance to proc per tentacle (and 1/7th of its damage).

That balances the fact that it's so powerful and so great at proccing Viral.

 

Imagine if you had a guaranteed Viral proc on something like the soma (even with its pitiful 7% proc chance...) 

 

And Scott mentionned many times how cautious he got with the proc system...Maybe he didn't do such a bad job after all.

Maybe he learned from the mistakes of Damage 1.0 where procs trivialized most of the content with Chain-CC's through 1 single elemental mod equiped on your weapon (you didn't have to have the full rainbow for that, just 1 mod). He mentionned that too during livestreams before Damage 2.0 was released.

 

And you're gonna scream again: BUT WE ALREADY CAN.CHAIN PROC

And I'm gonna answer: yes, but on specific weapons with a specific setup, not on demand with every cookie-cutter build around like you suggest.

 

How come you can't get that? 

 

The "special setup" you're referring to doesn't impact the weapon's combat effectiveness. So whats the point? The Phage would be the best shotgun in game without single proc. The Detron would be the best all around handcannon without one either. The Lanka, the 2nd best sniper. The Synapse the best held trigger.

 

It's like saying, all proc weapons are the color blue. So no non-blue weapons can have single procs.

 

But blue doesn't matter, It's not a balance factor! Blue doesn't change anything.

 

----------

 

Your point is the current proc system + a standard gun = too much power

 

My point is, the current proc system = useless. Lets figure out a way to make it not useless.

 

Step 1) make procs player controllable (this thread)

 

Step 2) balance procs and status (your future thread)

 

Unless you want procs to be a useless afterthought forever, lets get to work.

Edited March 20, 2014 by notionphil

[notionphil]

 

 

From what I understand a big part of the reason DE changed things was to eliminate chain-stunning and/or perma-freeze and the effects that had on "high level" play.

 

You may not like/appreciate his tone but Thelonius is right in saying this isn't going to happen.

 

Every weapon had a 100% proc chance for every shot. Now, status chance can be a balancing factor, and proc potency can be addressed as well.

 

I have zero problem with Thel's tone, he's debating very respectfully and logically. He's just not seeing that a balance issue can be resolved; no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

And you're incorrect - its clear DE is giving status builds a much more significant role in WF by their recent choices of rewards. This is the time to fix procs; this may be the discussion that plants the seeds of a comprehensive idea.

[Solaris11]

So are we back to the drawing bored then?

Currently Proccs are little more than a gimmick. They just feel tacked on to Damage 2.0, and are fairly weak.

 

 

Saying this isn't going to happen doesn't contribute to the idea. 

A perma stunlock/perma cold weapon would come with a loss of dps and ammo efficiency, the issue in D1.0 was that stun+dps+Efficiency were the entirely same build. Especially on a bullet hose like the grakata, the stunlock idea is now unviable.

CC effect proccs+Damage would need a bit of a rebalance but that would be about it.

 

 

My goal was to contribute to the discussion, not the idea.

 

I believe DE's goal was in fact to make Procs "a nice bonus" and not the focus of builds. Damage 2.0 gives players control of the types of Elemental Damage they do but very limited control over Elemental "bonus effects" as intended.

 

This somewhat limits Build Diversity but allows greater Weapon Diversity and DE is in the business of "selling" new weapons.

 

The current proc system isn't "useless" as Notionphil just called it but simply "icing on the cake" - a nice added occasional bonus for certain weapons and builds. The effects are powerful but hard to control. That keeps them interesting while not dominating.

[notionphil]

The current proc system isn't "useless" as Notionphil just called it but simply "icing on the cake" - a nice added occasional bonus for certain weapons and builds. The effects are powerful but hard to control. That keeps them interesting while not dominating.

 

In a system where there is literally a single ideal, hands down most effective build for each weapon/faction, we don't need icing.

 

We need a cake.

Edited March 20, 2014 by notionphil

[Thelonious]

The cake is weapon diversity?

 

Multiple trigger types (auto, semi-auto, burst, charged, projectiles...) with different physical/elemental attributes, that mixed together create the possibility for a great number of original/specialized weapons.

 

Anyway, 

I don't know, in Damage 1.0 elemental and physical procs were just an attempt from DE to copy classic Action-RPG elements ("as in, I have a fire sword that burn enemies")

Even in most of those games, till nowadays, Status procs are only just an icing on the cake, a gimmick ("I set enemies on fire, so cool"), tied just the same to specific weapons (Legendary Sword Of Burning +5), or weapon customizations (gems, enchantments, or whatever they call mods in other games), and in the gameplay design to a traditionnal elemental weakness chart ("Fire deals more damage to undead enemies").

 

There is nothing really special about it. And the idea that this game, which cannot even be defined as a RPG, but more like an action game borrowing RPG elements, would make a system so old, so used up over the years, into something original and special, is just...either presomptuous or completly off-topic. I don't know which one.

 

I'd rather have the dev team work on something that makes warframe stand out in this era of games, instead of trying to revolutionize what has been done hundreds of times.

 

Like yes, Weapons.

Parkour. 

Skin customization (coughValvecough)

Procedural generation (that's the new hip these days it seems)

etc..

 

Sure, the proc system could use a few tweaks here and there, but nothing really worth dealing with in the first place.

 

Just my opinion.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Thelonious

[notionphil]

 

And the idea that this game, which cannot even be defined as a RPG, but more like an action game borrowing RPG elements, would make a system so old, so used up over the years, into something original and special, is just...either presomptuous or completly off-topic. I don't know which one.

 

Tweaking an old idea to make something original or special = presumptuous/off-topic?

 

 

Ooookay then. G'day to you sir!

[Solaris11]

 

In a system where there is literally a single ideal, hands down most effective build for each weapon/faction, we don't need icing.

 

We need a cake.

 

And you think your proposal would lead to a different result?

 

There will always be "most effective builds" and "most effective weapons" in games like this. Always.

 

People will crunch the numbers and do the math. 

 

Guaranteed Procs are extremely problematic. 

 

Being able to permanently reduce Armor, Health, and Shields and/or continuously CC Mobs just by using a specific Weapon/Build combination is extremely powerful - arguably too powerful.

 

Also I am sure that DE's goal is to encourage players to use different Weapons for different situations far more than a single "Most Effective" weapon with a large number of Builds.

 

"Controllable Procs" would make Grakata the "New Soma" - a weapon that could simply be configured for maximum effect in any situation. Why use Phage when you can use "Viral Grakata" with its longer range and higher Status? Multiply that argument for for every other situation and "Special Weapon" currently in the game.

 

I fully understand your goal. I just don't think it would either work as well as you think (people would still develop "ultimate weapon/build" combos) nor align with DE's goals for the game.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Solaris11

[Thelonious]

Tweaking an old idea to make something original or special = presumptuous/off-topic?

 

 

Ooookay then. G'day to you sir!

 

Not targeted towards you Phil.

 

But there is objectively little point/chance for DE in trying to be original reworking a mechanics that had hundreds (prolly thousands) of iterations, in a modern game that just borrowed from a genre it doesn't even belong to in the first place.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Thelonious

[notionphil]

 

 

 

And you think your proposal would lead to a different result?

 

There will always be "most effective builds" and "most effective weapons" in games like this. Always.

-----

 

I fully understand your goal. I just don't think it would either work as well as you think (people would still develop "ultimate weapon/build" combos) nor align with DE's goals for the game.

 

 

Yes, I think we can make balanced enough procs that fit differing roles, that min-maxing won't create a single clear cut winner.

 

I'm extremely opposed to a best gun/build/frame etc. I think more clear upsides/downsides is how this game (and idea) needs to proceeed. A quick starting point - this really deserves its own thread but, here goes as an example:

 

for our purposes, we'll use a 10 damage attack. Any number modified by damage will be underlined. Re-application of Proc resets timer instead of stacking - unless otherwise stated.

 

A First Draft of Balanced Procs

 

Slash: deals 10 damage over 3 seconds, target cannot be affected by slash for following 7 seconds.

-frontloaded big DPS boost, which evens out to 10% over proc length

 

Impact: deals 2 damage, .5 second stagger, has a 10%+[20% of STATUS] chance to permanently disarm. Cannot be staggered again for 1.5 seconds.

-20% damage boost, small stun, moderate chance to disarm, forcing target into melee

 

Puncture:  target deals 30% + [30% of STATUS] reduced damage for 10 seconds, cannot use special abilities while punctured.

-blocks abilities, consistent chance to reduce damage, but not stop it outright

 

Heat: deals 10 damage over 10 seconds. Enemy has a 25%+ [25% of STATUS] chance of a 1 second heat-panic each tick

-mild DoT boost during proc with intermittent chance of stun

 

Elec: deals 2 damage in a 2 + [4% of STATUS] Meter AoE. Stuns all affected targets for 1 second - immune to elec stun for next 5 seconds. Has a 20% + [20% of STATUS] chance to jump to other targets within 5M, and chain from there.

-Low damage AoE with 'single-use' stun and chance to spread

 

Cold: slows targets by 30% + 10% per addl proc, stacks to a maximum of 90%. Lasts 5 seconds from last application.

-reduces offense and makes enemy an easy target, stacks for addl effect

 

Toxic: deals 2 damage per second until enemy gets to 1HP, will not kill. Has a [25% of STATUS] chance per tick to deal to other enemies within 1M

-will reduce any enemy to near death, over time. slight chance of contagion, will never kill.

 

Corrosive: increases damage done to target by 30% + 10% per addl proc, stacks to a maximum of 90%. Permanent.

-makes target take more damage from all sources, effect builds with each proc.

 

Viral: reduces target's maximum Health by 20% + [30% of STATUS] for 5 seconds. Any health removed by proc will return at end of duration. Does not stack, but will be extended by re-application.

-health reduction that scales with Status, and needs to be taken advantage of quickly.

 

Gas: deals 10 damage over 10 seconds to every target in a 5 + [4% of STATUS] Meter cloud. Targets can only be damaged by one gas cloud at a time.

-Low damage AoE that lingers in an area

 

Radiation:

-Need to work on this one still :)

 

Blast: deals 3 damage in a 2 + [2% of STATUS] Meter AoE. Has a 20%+[10% of STATUS] chance of knocking targets over, but pushes knocked down targets out of area.

 

-Has a moderate chance to repeatedly stun, if a target is tracked

Edited March 20, 2014 by notionphil

[Solaris11]

...and with your proposal Corrosive becomes the "go to" Element for high-level play and Grakata likely the "go to" Gun for applying it (though any "High DPS/RoF" with good Status Chance can be used).

 

(Or more accurately the "True Min-Maxers" out there will talk about having a team composed of one person with a "Max Status Corrosive" gun and 3 with "Max Crit DPS" builds)

 

I still feel you failed to understand my points. 

 

Theorycrafters will always come up with what the "Optimal Meta" for a game is. They will always determine which damage components are the most valuable (Damage per Shot, Damage per Second, Crit, Proc, etc) and which weapon builds are the most effective at delivering it.

 

Also Warframe is a game about using a lot of different weapons and a lot of different warframes - not using a single one with lots of different builds. Your "simple solution to make procs more controllable" is now a complete rewrite of the Proc System to support a goal (more meaningful procs) that I seriously doubt is a design goal of DE.

 

"More controllable/meaningful Procs" does nothing to eliminate "meta thinking" it only shifts it. If Procs can be utilized/exploited to more easily/effectively play the game than "Pure Crit/DPS" or "Raw Elemental" then people will use weapons that can Proc the best. Each Proc itself will be analyzed for whether it is more or less beneficial and how effectively it can be used in both "Pre-Made" and "Pug" environments.

 

And once the "New Meta" is established many will just use the new "cookie cutter" builds and weapons for it.

[notionphil]

There will always be an optimal build for a playstyle/situation. I'm not trying to deny that. However right now there are essential only 4 situations. 1 per faction.

My point is that more nuianced builds with more trade offs create a larger # situations to build towards.

That draft took me all of 15 minutes, as a first suggestion. I'm sure DE could do far better. Do they want to balance procs after melee? Do you have some line to their agenda that we don't? Please share. I see them giving us status mods and talking about balance so....you do the math.

[LukeAura]

...and with your proposal Corrosive becomes the "go to" Element for high-level play and Grakata likely the "go to" Gun for applying it (though any "High DPS/RoF" with 

"More controllable/meaningful Procs" does nothing to eliminate "meta thinking" it only shifts it. If Procs can be utilized/exploited to more easily/effectively play the game than "Pure Crit/DPS" or "Raw Elemental" then people will use weapons that can Proc the best. Each Proc itself will be analyzed for whether it is more or less beneficial and how effectively it can be used in both "Pre-Made" and "Pug" environments.

When/If Proccs become king, choosing between proccs the difference will have a substantial change on gameplay. When you decide to run Electric over Heat, it will change the way you play and deal damage. AoE compared to DoT.

While damage is king, the difference between fire and electric is...a change in dps, while the procc effect is barely reaching gimmick status. It barely changes anything.

Min/Maxers will always min/max. But when you go beyond that in our current system there is no point in not min/maxing. Go beyond min/max in a procc central system, and there is the potential for a lot of variety.

Notion, you typed that up in fifteen minutes? 

It takes me half an hour of constant nitpicking myself revision before I post a thread, oh damn it. XD 

Edited March 21, 2014 by LukeAura

[Solaris11]

 

When/If Proccs become king, choosing between proccs the difference will have a substantial change on gameplay. When you decide to run Electric over Heat, it will change the way you play and deal damage. AoE compared to DoT.

 

Not really. Either the Heat DoT (with panic) will be percieved as "worth it" or not when compared to Electrical. And either Grakata built for procs will be perceived as "better" than Soma's Crit Build or not.

 

Grakata's ability to combine high proc rate with high fire rate will often make it the "best proc gun" and even minimize the value of any "AoE" procs as you can Mod it with Shred or Metal Auger to "proc up" a whole group of mobs individually.

 

I've played too many games with damage systems like this for too long to think that DE is magically going to come up with the perfectly balanced Proc System that makes all Procs interesting and valuable and all weapons able to take advantage of it.

 

It's also true that not everybody wants to be constantly respeccing/remodding their weapon builds for different content and Factions. The current system allows people to configure and save one build per Faction (or however they choose to spec) and to choose which Weapons they want to use.

 

Different weapons already can take advantage of high Status/Proc chances and others are balanced around not being able to. There is still plenty of choice and it aligns with DE's business model.

[Paradoxbomb]

I guess it goes without saying that we were allowed to choose which proc we get, DE would obviously have to tone down the status chance mods and maybe even a few base status chances. Having a weapon with 100%+ status chance obviously works now since they're completely random, but with a less random system 77% chance to deal only Blast damage is most definitely OP for the Grakata, especially with multishot.

 

I still think making status effects reliable is essential to actually make them worthwhile, but obviously it wouldn't work with the current mods. This has probably been mentioned already, but that seems like a point that should be reinforced.

 

-snip-

 

Personally I would change puncture damage to a 10-15% damage increase to your target (because let's face it, the current puncture damage proc is nearly worthless) and change Corrosive to briefly allow your weapons to ignore armor.

[Llyssa]

Er, problem: There's more than 8 damage type mods, so if someone actually wanted multiple things with your system, they'd have to leave the space blank or purposely put a garbage mod in there instead.

 

Also, this lends itself to rather absurd things like forcing a weapon that has 1 slash damage to always bleed proc, despite having tons of other damage types on it.

 

It makes more sense that if you ONLY want 1 status chance, you pick a weapon that ONLY has that one damage type, and ONLY buff that. Which is entirely possible as things are now.

 

This would actually lower diversity, since it wouldn't matter what else you put on something, as long as you made sure that first slot was the only thing you wanted to proc. One mod to boost that, then all the rest for pure damage. So all builds are the same then: All of your highest damage stuff, and the one slot dedicated to the one proc you want.

 

It would make it easier to get an unbalanced uber proc+status chance+damage weapon, but it wouldn't actually improve the system.

 

Not a good idea.

[notionphil]

Er, problem: There's more than 8 damage type mods, so if someone actually wanted multiple things with your system, they'd have to leave the space blank or purposely put a garbage mod in there instead.

Serration/multi-shot were pretty darn good 'slot fillers' last time I checked. Edited March 21, 2014 by notionphil

[notionphil]

I really love the idea of a proc rework as a 2nd step. But thought of a simple first step to accompany the proposal which addresses most of the legit concerns.

If your weapon is in single proc mode, it's status chance is cut in half.*

If you leave in random proc mode, it applies full status as now.


The legit concerns to me are:
-weapon diversity, single element weapons should be better at their single proc than regular weapons.
-not as much, chain proccing, which is already in game. But id like to minimize it either way.

*half might not be number. Might be better to scale off of base status. Still thinking.

Edited March 21, 2014 by notionphil

[Varzy]

I really love the idea of a proc rework as a 2nd step. But thought of a simple first step to accompany the proposal which addresses most of the legit concerns.

If your weapon is in single proc mode, it's status chance is cut in half.*

If you leave in random proc mode, it applies full status as now.

The legit concerns to me are:

-weapon diversity, single proc weapons should be better at their single proc than regular weapons.

-not so much, chain proccing, which is already in game. But id like to minimize it either way.

*half might not be number. Might be better to scale off of base status. Still thinking.

Sounds fair. I can see their concerns, but like you said to me in a previous topic, the number crunching and fine details are something that can be solved down the line and don't necessarily negate the idea in the first place.

[notionphil]

Sounds fair. I can see their concerns, but like you said to me in a previous topic, the number crunching and fine details are something that can be solved down the line and don't necessarily negate the idea in the first place.

Balance is always a concern. Steps forwards will always need adjustment.

But we can't be scared to address major issues like utter lack of build diversity just because it might need a balance tweak. Is the 50% status right? We'd have to see in game. However without feedback on the post, I never would have thought of it. This is another reason DE needs player reps. Working together, we catch stuff like this.

[Paradoxbomb]

Balance is always a concern. Steps forwards will always need adjustment.

But we can't be scared to address major issues like utter lack of build diversity just because it might need a balance tweak. Is the 50% status right? We'd have to see in game. However without feedback on the post, I never would have thought of it. This is another reason DE needs player reps. Working together, we catch stuff like this.

 

An approximate maximum of 50% should be fair for single element builds. Hell, it could still be OP under the right circumstances (darn multi-shot mods screw over any chance of weapon balance in this game). But then again that would be a best case scenario for a handful of weapons so it'd be a good point to start testing and then buff/nerf from there IMO.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Paradoxbomb