Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[tnccs215]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Xeon_Vaz said:

"Pilfering Swarm is now limited to the creation of orbs, ammo and life support/batteries "

No. you do this, you kill Hydroid. Period.

Indeed.

Think about that: how a whole frame's value is hanging by a cheap augment

[tnccs215]

On 3/21/2014 at 1:53 AM, Archwizard said:

6. Enemies under the effects of Terrify sprint at full-speed toward the nearest exit, synergizing poorly with the armor debuff and making it harder to clean the slate for a second cast. Bandaged in U14.18 by the Creeping Terrify augment.

Nitpicking, but wasn't it on the update 18.14?

Edited August 11, 2016 by tnccs215

[Archwizard]

5 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Nitpicking, but wasn't it on the update 18.14?

Woops.

[Archwizard]

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

-snip-

I should clarify, when I say "synergy" I don't mean Saryn-level "every ability must have a unique effect with the others; Maim must cause Rest targets to explode, there must be 30 permutations of interaction, etc", just that each should reasonably be within the same kit as the other skills in that form, and that regularly swapping to Night form should, directly or indirectly, benefit Day form and vice versa (as opposed to existing separately and punishing transformation as you said).

With the exception of Provoke, presently I see each half of Equinox as having very bland, standard-issue effects, partly due to their "half-ability" nature - particularly on the Day side where two abilities only seem to exist to build up Maim. In some ways it actually makes Day form feel very passive and supportive without augments, compared to the more active defense provided by Night form.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Xeon_Vaz said:

"Pilfering Swarm is now limited to the creation of orbs, ammo and life support/batteries "
No. you do this, you kill Hydroid. Period.

as aforementioned, if l00t multiplication borderline exploits is the only reason Players use a Warframe, perhaps that points more to problems with the Warframe than l00t multiplication being """""""""good""""""""".

[(PSN)Xeon_Vaz]

Just now, taiiat said:

as aforementioned, if l00t multiplication borderline exploits is the only reason Players use a Warframe, perhaps that points more to problems with the Warframe than l00t multiplication being """""""""good""""""""".

Isn't that mostly why people use Nekros and Ivara too?

[Archwizard]

Just now, (PS4)Xeon_Vaz said:

Isn't that mostly why people use Nekros and Ivara too?

Have you looked under Nekros and Ivara in the OP?

[taiiat]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Xeon_Vaz said:

Isn't that mostly why people use Nekros and Ivara too?

Desecrate aside from being Ability based l00t multiplication, has a purpose as a Support Ability for the Warframe. it would still be useful to Nekros even if it wasn't Ability based l00t multiplication.

pickpocketing has a Support purpose for Ivara. and she has WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more to offer than just that.

 

Ability based l00t multiplication is a mistake. you'll notice that Relics allow you to do things with l00t, but it's not Warframe/Ability specific.
which means any sort of those mechanics are controlled, and are a game mechanic.

[(PSN)Xeon_Vaz]

3 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Have you looked under Nekros and Ivara in the OP?

Look, when I start seeing a difference in 4 - 9 Gallium with just Hydroid on Assur, Uranus to 13 - 18 in a 20 minute run with Hydroid, Nekros and Ivara, you can cry RNG all you want. I see results.

[tnccs215]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Xeon_Vaz said:

Look, when I start seeing a difference in 4 - 9 Gallium with just Hydroid on Assur, Uranus to 13 - 18 in a 20 minute run with Hydroid, Nekros and Ivara, you can cry RNG all you want. I see results.

And we see drop tables skewed in order to accomodate the sense of bigger accomplishment you get when you have a Nekros, an Hydroid or an Ivara in the squad.

[(PSN)Xeon_Vaz]

5 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

And we see drop tables skewed in order to accomodate the sense of bigger accomplishment you get when you have a Nekros, an Hydroid or an Ivara in the squad.

Okay soo... I don't really understand what you're getting at. Each frame has a specific use. Why is it so bad that some of them make loot drop more?

[taiiat]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Xeon_Vaz said:

Okay soo... I don't really understand what you're getting at. Each frame has a specific use. Why is it so bad that some of them make loot drop more?

because it's tied to an Ability, rather than being an active Game Mechanic.
Warframes do not tend to have one specific use - what game are you playing?

why is it so good that the Warframe you're harping about is almost exclusively used just for that Augment, and literally nothing else?

[Archwizard]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)Xeon_Vaz said:

Okay soo... I don't really understand what you're getting at. Each frame has a specific use. Why is it so bad that some of them make loot drop more?

Because regular drop rates are incredibly low and progression is determined entirely by the same kind of loot these abilities generate. Due to the number of frames who cannot put multipliers on loot versus those who can, you come to two simultaneous outcomes:

1) The majority of frames are actively less rewarding (which can stilt progression).

2) You only use a minority of frames to farm (especially when their multipliers stack with each other, particularly Ivara's, encouraging multiple on one team).

Both become more true as the frames who have access to these abilities become more competent and competitive for specific non-farming roles (like Ivara's stealth and Nekros' support). Not that them being competitive is a bad thing, especially compared to the alternative - as shown by the literal years where one role interfered with the other for Nekros, or Hydroid without the augment as you've already pointed out.

Perhaps if you're still interested in discussing Hydroid however, you could discuss what about him is awful without the augment? The closer we get to the root of his problems, the easier it is to start seeking solutions.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Archwizard

[tnccs215]

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

I should clarify, when I say "synergy" I don't mean Saryn-level "every ability must have a unique effect with the others; Maim must cause Rest targets to explode, there must be 30 permutations of interaction, etc", just that each should reasonably be within the same kit as the other skills in that form, and that regularly swapping to Night form should, directly or indirectly, benefit Day form and vice versa (as opposed to existing separately and punishing transformation as you said).

With the exception of Provoke, presently I see each half of Equinox as having very bland, standard-issue effects, partly due to their "half-ability" nature - particularly on the Day side where two abilities only seem to exist to build up Maim. In some ways it actually makes Day form feel very passive and supportive without augments, compared to the more active defense provided by Night form.

I see. In that case, I eagerly await for your input in the several comments that followed that one, and included the various changes proposed.

[Azamagon]

On 2016-08-10 at 11:57 PM, tnccs215 said:

1) What I presented there was something that occurred to me while rereading you other post. You mentioned how Provoke kinda worked well enough, since allies are close to enemies which are good for feeding Maim. I argued that that logic could be used for all powers. However, while I used that argument as an attempt of a reductio ad absurdum, ironically, in Equinox's case, it's true. To a greater or smaller extent, all her powers benefit from proximity to allies much more than, say, frames like Valkyr do. 

(Current) Provoke is an obvious one, since it directly buffs them. Mend, likewise, since it heals them. However, so do Pacify and Maim. Pacify, because while it is always useful to reduce the damage of the biggest amount of enemies possible, and while that certainly will benefit you, there is no team-benefit (besides yours) of doing that to enemies that are too far away from your allies to attack them-- after all, the only benefit of reducing damage dealt by enemies instead of damage received by you is the fact that enemies aren't only targeting you. And Maim, the best offensive ability of her kit, benefits too from proximity to allies because allied kills also contribute for the stored damage. Granted, when discharging, it's best to prioritise enemy density; but regardless, the benefit is there.

As such, and as I said before, perhaps the problem is not the discrepancy between the required positionings, but how utterly unforgiving the abilities can be if you don't abide perfectly to it. 

Ence, in terms of positioning, Mend&Maim (though, Maim much more than Mend) is not as problematic as the current iteration of Pacify&Provoke is:

• Overall, for a support aura, it features a small range: 16 meters. Abilities like Silence (enemy debuff) possess a base range of 20 meters (Sonar possesses 35), and so do abilities like Roar. Sometimes even bigger ranges (Warcry and Speed possess 25 meters) exist. Indeed, the only friendly buffer with a smaller range than P&P that I found was none other than Elemental Ward (which itself got a good augment to buff its team support--- though, honestly, Chroma itself is open for discussion). I am not a fan of using comparisons to other frames as an argument, but when almost every single frame as better values for a similar power, something is not right. Why did DE decided that 16 meters was enough? well, possibly because of the "she has two Aspects" fallacy. 
• Pacify: not only it has a short range, it also has damage reduction fall-off. Honestly, I don't even need to say anything else, we all know how utterly awful Pacify is. Poor damage reduction, high cost, fall-off, etc. It's not a good self defense ability, much less a enemy debuffer, in a game where enemies can be spread all across a map.
• Provoke: If enemies are spread thin, Allies are spread thinner. This is Warframe, and mobility is the main course every meal. Buffing allies with such a short range is irrealistic, specially when you yourself need to change position due to Maim. More often than not, the only effect Provoke has is a split second of an icon next to some ally's name, only for it to disapear just as quickly.

Fortunately, however, you stumbled in a solution. The "enemies affected by Pacify work with a timer" is a technique already used by most ally buffers, and it works for a reason. Making both Pacify and Provoke work that way will make the abilities forgivable (enough) for the problem to go away, without trivialisation. 

That's my take on it, at least. more thought put into this are appreciated.

2) There is another thing that I consider a priority-- you probably noticed how I did not mention the switching of Provoke and Rage as team buffer/enemy (de)buffer abilities. That is because, as much as I like the idea, I think one should fix what is broken, and only substitute what is irredeemable. I mean... even though it does indeed make a bit more sense (or at least it would be more mechanically consonant) for Provoke to be an enemy debuffer, its nature as a friendly buffer is not inherently problematic. It's poor implementation is, of that there is no doubt. But it can be fixed, easily fixed, and still work just as well. In a rework, the least you have to change to make a Frame incredible, the better. And completely remaking Provoke is not a necessity. So, I think, we should stick to Provoke as a team buffer. 

Of course, feel free to try and convince me of otherwise.

(Also, regardless of whether or not Provoke should change to a enemy debuffer ability, I like all your ideas regardless, and I really like the idea of making Rest&Rage having Ally buffin effects, specially the ones you proposed. More on that later)

----

Onto your several responses than. I'll keep your enumeration, btw. Too useful

Btw, if I pass over something, it's either because I think it's a closed subject, was already addressed in this post (points 1, 2 and 3 in particular, were pretty much the center of the introductory paragraphs), or I simply forgot. Feel free to call me out if you think I failed to address anything as well as I should.

5)I want to give some more input regarding Mend: taking the initial thought into consideration, I have to say that I agree more than ever that indeed, an initial healing wave with no range limitations is very, very much important. Also, I think I wasn't clear in my words: My idea was for the dome to expand, but whether or not the initial general healing would be instant or work as a wave. I honestly prefer the wave, but was having some problems devising a mechanic that would incorporate both the dome and the healing wave. At first I had nothing, but a got one in the meanwhile: Once Equinox deactivates Mend, a dome with the healing capability equivalent to the stored HP will be created. From this dome, a healing wave expands, healing all allies that touches. All healing done by the wave is discounted from the dome's pool. 

A possible augment would be for the wave to give overshields, I suppose. Would like more input about this.

6)Well, glad that you liked it! It's a shame I don't think how much of a good idea it would indeed be.

8)That's a very relevant question, one I'm not sure I know how to answer. While it's easy to know what's the best utility to give Pacify-- simply robbing and teawing the current augment is beyond good enough-- We don't have the same privilege with Provoke. And, indeed, the problem is increased if Provoke indeed changes place with Rage. I honestly don't know how to answer. Your brainstorming is not bad at all, indeed the loss of accuracy is a good idea-- though, it would make "Rage" a much better name (more comments on the nomenclature on the correct place), but I think the speed buff would have to be removed. Rage is already quite too punishing, and making an equivalent but with much bigger range would be suicidal. I must give it more thought.

Regarding the augment: Fair enough, I'm not too satisfied with it either.

Now, your deactivation Bonus: I think they do make some sense. While I do not have a particular problem with Fire&Forget abilities, I have to say that adding a reason to not have them on is quite attractive. There is, however, a problem: Mend&Maim already work that way.

True, their functionality is much more focused on the deactivation than Pacify&Provoke would be, but that it would be somewhat of a saturation of the mechanics. I don't know. Personally, I think it is very fitting for an Augment, more than for a base ability. However, as always, feel free to convince me of otherwise.

9)Honestly, and again favouring it's current nomenclature, I think it makes more sense for mend to give a benefit to allies than a debuff to enemies. After all, it is called "Mend", and therefore a negative effect for enemies does not make much sense. More than that: Pacify itself already grants a debuff to enemies. Making Mend do so too seems quite excessive, I think. In this case, the no-delay-for-shield-recharge seems like a fitting enough.

Talking about nomenclature:

To be honest, it's one of those things in which I partially agree with you: though I do think that Rest and Pacify, though they can mean similar things in a certain context, befit their current place well enough, I agree that both Rage and Provoke are very, very much ambiguous. I don't know, in this case, I don't consider it a particularly big issue.

Ok, now to the best: the brainstorming:

Metamorphosis:

I like all the changes, though I think permanent extra damage in weapons when on Day Form might be a bit too much. I think the permanent passives should not be affected by Power Strength, honestly-- though they could get a buff to compensate.

Regarding the need for Range mods, I don't think that will be necessary: while I agree that the most abilities affected by the several stats, the better, when it's just one ability left, I think that is passable. Specially when Range is already so important for her.

Speaking of which...

• Most of her abilities will need a Range buff.

Currently, the fact that Pacify is useless and that Provoke is passable do give her the... "benefit" of being able to almost completely slack off of power strength and Power duration. This means that most good builds (sometimes excluding Peaceful Provocation ones) will have extrenuous amounts of range, allowed due to not needing to compensate overextended, and simply not having to include as many mods. The same won't happen should the changes proposed be applied:

Duration will become important for both Pacify&Provoke and maybe for Mend

Pacify&Provoke and Metamorphosis wont be irrelevant, and there will be a reason to increase power strength in Maim.

This means Equinox will start favouring, not 250% range builds, but overall more balanced ones. Ence, the extreme range needed to make abilities like P&P more relevant, and even M&M or R&R wont be possible. 

Trully, the only ability I think won't need a range buff is Rest&Rage, for obvious reasons-- you gotta reduce on that cheese, it's not good for your health.

Of course, this is open for discussion

Rest

I really like your changes to this one. They are not priorities, no, but adding Team buffing characteristics to R&R is a really, really good utility addition. Plus, your idea is a really, really good one. Sacrifice mobility for health regeneration: it both fits the power, as it is useful without being too useful. Yes, I love this one.

Rage

Regardless of what happens to Provoke-- whether if it's better to leave it as a teambuffer, or make it an enemy debuffer-- I really want Rage to also have a team support component. Should Provoke become an enemy debuffer, the ones you proposed trully are more than good enough. If not, increasing sprint speed and melee damage (cause being mad won't make your bullets harder) would be good substitutes, and enemy speed increase should either be replaced or offset by the reduction to enemy accuracy-- I agree that it's a neat touch

Pacify

This is mostly my baby, so I practically find this perfect. However, while I trully like that detail of enemies getting debuffed should they attack an allie inside the aura, I don't know if it isn't a bit of an overkill with the ability.

Provoke

Already gave my thoughts about it earlier, but regardless, I have to say I like the changes you propose-- only gripe I have is how enemy accuracy reduction fits more a power called "Rage" than Provoke ("less" is different than "not at all").

1. Also, I have a question: enemies inside the aura will keep the debuff for as long as they stay inside the aura, or will the debuff refresh (and therefore cost energy) when their timer ends when inside the aura? This aplies both for Pacify and Provoke
2. Btw, I think that we should keep cost/enemy as a blank value for now, because we literally don't know what are "fair" values for this. It's easy to get said values for things like duration, range, Strength, and efficiency for "normal" abilities, but in this case, it's better to leave them blank.

Mend

the, erhm.... "problem" with abilities such as Mend--- whose lackluster nature is not due to insufficient numerical values, but yes due to the absence of a utility effect-- is that they allow imagination to run wild. The same problem is imposed with Provoke (though not with Pacify, the simplest and most efficient what to buff it well enough was pretty much obvious, just an adaptation of it's characteristics), and with R&R. 

What I mean is that I will probably just say "yeah that's a great idea!" and will have little to no additional input if it trully is a good idea-- sometimes, somethings are just as good as other propositions.

The first proposal is one of those cases. I like how you attempted to make it a mirror affect to Maim's, affecting enemies, which in turn affect allies. I just fear it will a bit too over the top, though it trully might not. Honestly, in this case, feedback that isn't from me would be appreciated (so, other people in this thread, please start commenting).

I also like the "energy fuels stored damage" thing. It's a great QoL that incentives ability use HOWEVER: it is not a necessity. It trully is just another addition that isn't required, and honestly, might be discarded, even though it truly is a good idea. Sometimes, you have to reduce and streamline things.

The rest I agree with everything, though I'd rather have the heal wave not be instantaneous, and have it's speed affected by duration. That's pretty much all I have to say.

Maim

Indeed, it requires minimal changes. Specially on this case, due to Maim's murderous nature, I think the ability use as a fuel doesn't make much sense.

------

Overall, I really like your ideas, and I'm honestly thankful you came here to comment. I only hope more people in here give their feedback, be it negative or positive, as long as it is constructive.

[EDIT]: Ironically, more people just commented. great!

 

 

Before anything else, wanna say this (might be part of my grumpyness from being sick, but anywho):

You know... thinking so hard about all these Equinox design problems is honestly getting really annoying for my mind. I've even sat down with pen and paper and trying to get a better overview of how she could be designed, and I just keep getting more questions: While I think Dayquinox should be all about being around enemies and killing them, how should one differentiate Provoke and Rage in a good way? Should Nightquinox be designed to be closer to allies or enemies? In either case, how can then her skills be designed so they feel like mirrorversions of Day's, while not being nonsensical (like my old heal-shot Mend)? If Mend leaves a Dome, how do you mirror that on Maim? Should it leave a damaging Dome too? If not, is it truly mirrored?
Stuff like that. I feel that the my most progress lies within these questions/ideas:
1) I feel Day should be all about proximity to enemies (this one I can't get away from, it fits too well)
2) Should Night ALSO be about proximity to enemies (this makes it easier to "mirror" the abilities) or should Night be all about proximity to allies (bit harder to mirror, but easier to make Mend make sense as a healing ability).
So later on I'll just give you a brief summary later down on how I'd go about those 2 designs (more vaguely than before, to make it easier to read).

And I think after responding to you here, I think I'll pause a bit with thinking about Equinox, hope you don't mind :/

1) Yeah, I think I'm certainly overthinking the positioning stuff. Still, taking SOME positioning is important imo, as the playstyle shouldn't feel so... schizofrenic (for a lack of better words). As mentioned in the "foreword" I've also come up with a style for Night being (more) about proximity to allies and Day (more) about proximity to enemies. I've already KIND of addressed that with my old ideas, but that design mindset makes it easier to revolve around.

Part of the problem, for me, was P&P: Pacify was about proximity to enemies, which is counterintuitive to her Mend skill (mainly due to the healing, not the fueling). Provoke was about proximity to allies, which is counterintuitive to her Maim skill (both passive and release). With your idea of making Rage do the allybuffing and Provoke debuffing enemies, I felt positioning was more or less resolved for Day, so thank you for that!
However, Night would probably be best off if Pacify was an allybuff (ignore the name being unfitting for now, that is something which can be solved in other ways), as then Mend can more fittingly be more about ally proximity. More to those ideas later.

As for P&P, if they are to be as simple as they are currently, then yes, they need to be buffed in range and Pacify's DR-falloff should certainly be removed.

2) Honestly, I feel that your idea of "swapping" Rage and Provoke solves most of my issues: Day is then not split so hard between being close to allies (Provoke) and enemies (Maim), as Rage can instead buff your allies from afar. Seriously, it makes Day more aggressive, which I find very fitting, and it also makes Day's kit more cohesive and synergistic in a sense.

5) Well, hehe, that is how I imagined it from the start xD

6) One of the best ideas so far, really, as I've already mentioned :)

8) I think accuracy loss is the best I could come up with which would give a feel of "mirrored" effect (as already explained), so I'm gonna stick with that :P
As for the P&P deactivation bonus, I'll just push that as my augment replacement and stop thinking about it further ^^

9) It indeed is more sensical for Mend to benefit allies, which is what lead me to the new design of Nightquinox being all (well, mostly) about ally proximity instead.

About the nomenclature: Things can also be renamed for the sake of making them fit with new effects. And if anything would be in need to be renamed, my vote goes for Pacify/Provoke, partly due to how "similar" they are to Rest/Rage (Rage and Provoke, mainly) and partly due to Mend/Maim seems to be more workable around their current names, due to feeling more different in nature than P&P and R&R.

As for the brainstorming:

Metamorphosis - Yeah, rethinking it, I guess having permanent bonuses is maybe not the best. I guess just changing the bonuses to only start decaying halfway would be better. That, or only part of the bonuses have the decay (weapondamage for Day and shields for Night?), while they others are permanent (speed and armor). That's maybe more reasonable?

Range I'll indeed wait / pass with, and yes, the other abilities certainly need rangebuffs (mainly P&P, as they are) cuz what you say is certainly true about her modding.

Rest - Thanks :)
And now to my personal brain-irritation: What would the mirror-part of the Rest-healing be on Rage? Maybe the increased ally movespeed, as that promotes activity (the opposite of what the Rest-healing promotes)
*sigh* I know, my thoughts can be a real funkiller, no?

Rage - Alright, I guess we agreed about the overal concepts here.
And for this part: "cause being mad won't make your bullets harder", hehe, thanks, that gave me a good laugh :) Probably more than I should've laughed ^_^

Pacify - Actually, enemies getting debuffed should they attack an ally inside the aura, is part of what could make it function in the "Nightquinox = close to allies" design.

Provoke - Eh, wether Rage or Provoke is what causes enemies to miss, namewise, is something I could easily shrug off as a pointless semantic. But, considering that it might be a supposed a mirror-effect to Pacify's slow, then I'd still stick it on Provoke.

Actually, the big problem I have with Provoke is actually very simple: Every effect you could think of to put on Provoke, is just as easy to put on Rage.
Just look at this:
* Rest puts enemies to sleep and heals allies when they are still. Cool.
* Pacify slows and reduces enemy damage. Cool.
* Rage stuns enemies and increases their damage taken and/or causes them to miss more and buffs ally Power Strength.
* Provoke... is now pointless.
It's hard to come up with something that both mirrors Pacify well enough AND isn't something that feels like it would fit better to put on Rage. I just don't know what to do to Provoke :(
Furthermore, if Provoke increases enemy damage taken (in case Rage doesn't), then it'd be the most brainless buffer (or rather, debuff) in the entire game, wouldn't it. That's a further reason why feel Rage should be what increases enemy damage taken, as it requires more input than Provoke does. Thus, the question: What is Provoke supposed to do? And how is that purpose done in such a way that it mirrors Pacify without making it a brainless damageincreaser? Which leads back to Provoke's current design: It increases Power Strength for allies, which both feels more interesting and more unique... but then it no longer debuffs enemies, breaking the "Dayquinox = close to enemies"-design...
I HATE MY BRAIN xD

Maybe making it a brainless debuffer is fine after all? I dunno, I'm tired of the Provoke/Rage dilemma -_-

As for your questions:
1. Enemies inside the aura will keep the debuff for as long as they stay inside the aura, yes. So there will only be one energycost per enemy (as long as they don't EXIT the aura, lose the debuff linger-timer, and then re-enter again. Then they'd drain energy from Equinox again).

2. Good point. Just wanted to make sure that it shouldn't be something absurdly high. Single digit cost is all I'm saying :)

Mend - Well, the enemies-bullets-heals-allies-a-bit was indeed intended as a mirror to Maim, but also to make sure it keeps with my the design I had in mind then, which was that Nigh is ALSO all about being close to enemies. And that positioning design is also why I want the healing to have the dome, or more so, the expanding/unlimited range healing. However, now Mend's RELEASE is not truly mirroring Maim's release. It's nitpicking, I know, but I have my annoying perfectionisms in my brain bothering me a bit about that :P It's something I could let go off, but it IS something that makes them differ regardless.
Thus, that is why I am now trying out the other design of making Nighquinox all about proximity to allies. It's easier to design Mend that way, and Pacify can still work out in that version as well. The energy consumption fueling M&M is part of that design, btw.

Another thought (which I'm not gonna delve into too much) is the fueling process: For Maim, killing near her makes sense, and gives her a more heavy presence in high enemy density. But is that really a good mechanic to make Mend fit for her, in any way? Maybe how Mend/Maim is fueled up could need some rethinking? (Because the fueling is (also) part of why I have troubles redesigning her)

So, here are the design ideas very briefly:

 

Metamorphosis - In either designs, it can remain (more or less) as I already suggested it. Only alteration I'd do is, as

@tnccs215 pointed out, at least one part of the buffs should NOT to be permanent (namely, the Weaponbuff for Day, and then either armor or shields for Night).

Dayquinox, in both versions, is ALL about being close to enemies:

Rage - Targetted blast which stuns enemies and debuffs them in some manner. Allies get boosted movement speed and power strength
Provoke - Aura which debuffs enemeis in some manner, which favours aggression + causes them to miss more (unless tacked onto Rage if Provoke gets something different).
Maim - Aura which stagger+bleed passively on enemies, release does its blast

Nighquinox version 1: Also about being close to enemies

Rest - Targettted blast which sleeps enemies. Allies get a buff that causes them to regen health if they stay still
Pacify - Aura which debuffs enemies in some manner, preferably reducing their damage-output + slowing them down
Mend - Aura which passively debuffs enemies in some manner which aids your allies in a defensive manner, release does an expanding healing wave (and either leaves the dome or causes allies to have a shared buff on them which does the same as the dome-idea, but positioning becoming entirely irrelevant) (Note: For mirroring, maybe Maim release should have some debuff on enemies too, so there is a mirrored "need" for Power Duration?)

Nighquinox version 2: Be close to allies

Rest - Same as v1
Pacify - Aura which causes Equinox and her attacked allies to retaliate with a debuff on the attacking enemy. Preferably a damage-reduction and maybe also a slow-effect?
Mend - Aura which passively heals allies in some manner, release does a healing effect of some kind (could be the same as v1, but feels more reasonable to be a bit more restricted than v1, due to already favouring ally presence) (Note: In this version ally energyconsumption fueling it (and Maim) is more important, otherwise you might have troubles fueling it when taking a supportive/defensive position on the field).

Meh *shrugs*

Edited August 11, 2016 by Azamagon

[Aquasurge]

10 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Provoke - Aura which debuffs enemeis in some manner, which favours aggression + causes them to miss more (unless tacked onto Rage if Provoke gets something different).

if this is the case, perhaps provoke should do something to do with enemy aggro?

[BETAOPTICS]

On 11.8.2016 at 3:06 AM, tnccs215 said:

But this is not the only way. @BETAOPTICS, I've shown some hostility towards what drew and the crew said, and I believe I was somewhat fundamented.

 

But the truth is, while I think that making her powers just more metamorphosis buffs would not be the best way to go, the idea behind it, an idea obviously shared by many, that each aspect should augment eachother.... is not bad.

Yes, her powers need some buffing on their own regardless of the path chosen, but the idea of making her a juggler, and having each power augment eachother, is a very attractive idea for the sense that she would be unique.

However... is Warframe the game for that? 

Such synergy does more than require mental capacity-- it requires time. And time is not allowed in this game. The biggest problem I have with Mag is the split-second too long cast of Polarize. Saryn's Spores take so long to have an effect that I've been killed more often due to that than any other reason when playing her-- and it has a relatively small casting time. 

Such juggling and synergy require proactiveness, and for the exception of Inaros and Mag in some cases, proactiveness is almost impossible in this game. The fact that having to recast P&P again is so disjointing for Equinox, even though it takes almost no time, is a proof of that.

That is the main reason why I've held myself in the ground with Equinox, attempting to propose the most concise, precise and fluid she could be.

 

 

 

Depends entirely on execution. Currently switching forms is slow and clumsy and every other ability automatically cancels out but in the example of Mend & Maim - for example, Maim offers a stun effect which gives more than enough time to do things. While Maim is a very specific example, it does give us a hint about what could be. Another change I was thinking when I talked about shifting between forms was to fasten Metamorphisis so that it would me a lot more responsive to time sensitive combat situation.

Disjointing? Perhaps it can be sometimes, but what I wonder if that is as much due to time intensive combat and more about the effects passiveness? Does the same issue manifest when playing with other Warframes? If not, then why not? What makes Equinox different? If yes, then is it more of an personal cognitive coordination issue?

Make your imagination go wild here because there is a lot of things that functionality and implementation can do to solve the suggested issue. Obviously its current iteration would not be able to function practically, but the great thing about theoretical discussions is that we aren't limited to what is presently active; we have more dimensions we are able to explore.

Edited August 12, 2016 by BETAOPTICS

[--Q--uaint]

I was reading through the discussion of late, and read a thing that inspired me: _{^{(it also may have something to do with me actually potatoing her after deciding not to)}}

On 8/11/2016 at 3:03 PM, Azamagon said:

I've even sat down with pen and paper and trying to get a better overview of how she could be designed

I decided a pen and paper was exactly what I needed. So that's what I got. And now I have things I have thought up.

^{_{It's also early morning here, so maybe I just think I have solutions when I really don't. In fact, that's probably the case.}}

These ideas draw on y'all's a lot, obviously:

#1 Metamorphosis
Augment remains the same.
Entering Night form:
Enemies within range (7m?) are counted and the next [number of enemies affected] that Equinox melees will be blinded (5s?).
Armor boost for the current duration
Shields/shield capacity is now permanent to Night form (still scales with strength, because reasons)
Entering Day form:
On initial cast, all enemies in range (7m?) are ragdolled.
Damage boost for the current duration
Speed boost is now permanent to Day form (still scales with strength, because reasons)

#2 Subdue/Enrage
Cast in the same way Rest/Rage is, but probably with a bit more AoE and/or duration?
Uses the same augment, in that the effects are propagated to new enemies on enemy death. EDIT: I had an idea for an augment if the old augment is unwanted. Or even if it's not, since DE is open to the idea of having multiple augments...
Subdue:
Affected targets have reduced accuracy and deal less damage. (not sure on numbers, and I'm too tired for math)
Possible new augment effect, should a change be desired: Subdue can target allies, and allies in the AoE become immune to status effects for the full duration of Subdue
Enrage:
Affected targets gain a speed boost, but take more damage and will not use ranged attacks for the duration.
Possible new augment effect, should a change be desired: Enrage can target allies, and allies in the AoE gain a 2x damage multiplier on melee attacks for the full duration of Enrage.

#3 Pacify/Provoke
Cast in the same way as now, and drains further energy per "event." Now has a deactivation bonus.
When Metamorphosis is cast, Pacify/Provoke now transitions to its alternate form and starts reacting to the associated event type.
Note that all effects have their own independent durations and don't care whether the "mother" ability is active or not.
Pacify:
Energy drain on damage to allies
Any enemy who attacks an ally in range is staggered, and the affected ally gets a DR buff that lasts a duration (10s?).
The DR buff will stack with itself (up to a cap), and each re-application will refresh the timer on the buff.
On deactivation, the highest DR attained by any ally in range is given to all allies in range, and all DR timers are refreshed.
Augment: Enemies staggered by Pacify will also be slowed for a duration (7s?).
Provoke:
Energy drain on enemy deaths inside the range
For each kill made in the radius, Equinox and the person who made the kill get a power strength buff that lasts a duration (10s?).
The power strength buff will stack with itself (up to a cap), and each re-application will refresh the timer on the buff.
On deactivation, Equinox will gain a power strength buff as if all the enemies in the AoE had been killed. (there is no associated energy cost)
Augment: Enemies killed inside the AoE will explode for 30% of their HP in Heat damage, scaling with strength.

#4 Mend/Maim
Same casting mechanics as now, but the "bomb" is retained and the skill is not deactivated when Metamorphosis is cast.
Mend:
Allies inside the AoE no longer have a shield recharge delay
Any time an ally in range takes damage, 5x (scaling with strength) that amount will be added to Mend's "bomb."
Once per second, the difference between all affected allies' maximum and current health/shields will be added to Mend's "bomb."
On deactivation, the "bomb" is divided equally among all allies, regardless of range. Any excess healing is redirected into a bubble that lasts 10 seconds (scaling with duration) and heals any ally who comes to harm within it.
Maim:
Same bleed/stun mechanic as now
Any time an enemy in range is killed, 5x (scaling with strength) their maximum HP is added to Maim's "bomb."
On deactivation, the "bomb" is divided equally among all enemies in range and enough damage to kill each one is dealt directly to their HP. Any excess damage is returned to Equinox and for the next 10 seconds (scaling with duration), enough of that damage to secure a kill is added to any attack Equinox makes.

 

I believe this set of abilities gives Equinox clearly defined roles and positioning choices for each form, while promoting a fluid playstyle (by keeping Mend/Maim's "bombs" and allowing the other abilities to produce duration-based effects) without punishing a more static one.

Thoughts, criticism, hate? ^{_{Though TBH I probably won't be posting again for a while since I don't like Captchas}}

Edited August 14, 2016 by ChronoEclipse
Added a new augment idea for Subdue/Enrage

[--Q--uaint]

Since there's a lot in that previous post and I didn't wanna digress too much, I'm now making a separate post for reasoning/justifications. _{^{See what I did there?}}

Spoiler

Metamorphosis
Permanency was added to make each form feel more unique, and because I like speed and think the decaying shields thing is wak. The shields also synergizes with Mend's active effect.
The new effects were to make range relevant and to somewhat ease the transitions.

Subdue/Enrage
I am not entirely thrilled with the kind of long-lasting, widespread CC that Rest could put out, so that encouraged me to change it.
They mirror each other in that the enemies are taken to what are effectively extremes of aggro, while both fitting the same general purpose.
Reduced damage synergizes with Pacify to help allies survive the DR buildup, and reduced accuracy synergizes with it to help not waste your energy by refreshing durations too often.
Restricting enemies to melee with Enrage makes sense and allows the power to work while retaining its enemy-buffing aspect (they now run straight into your Provoke/Maim auras, too).

Pacify/Provoke
Now encourages Night to chill near allies, and Day to chill near enemies.
I thought the triggering on damage to allies/death of enemies was a good mirroring.
Giving it only duration-based effects means you can now freely swap forms without messing anything up, but you also have incentive to toggle the ability off aside from the energy cost.

Mend/Maim
Already been discussed a lot on most of the changes.
New Mend accumulation mechanic now encourages hanging out with allies.
New Maim distribution mechanic makes it mirror Mend more closely while giving a very good reason to have power strength and nerfing approach of "shoot the biggest enemy and then watch them all die when you deactivate."
New Maim murder-buff helps you to finish off any heavies that survived, and helps you not feel like you've wasted a bunch of damage on mooks.
Mirroring is established: Mend and Maim use their range to accumulate a "bomb" while providing minor benefits. On deactivation, Mend has a rangeless instant distribution and a ranged timed distribution while Maim has a ranged instant distribution and a rangeless timed distribution.

Edited August 13, 2016 by ChronoEclipse
spoiler'd the contents for ease of whatever

[Aquasurge]

8 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

#1 Metamorphosis
Augment remains the same.
Entering Night form:
Enemies within range (7m?) are counted and the next [number of enemies affected] that Equinox melees will be blinded (5s?).
Armor boost for the current duration
Shields/shield capacity is now permanent to Night form (still scales with strength, because reasons)
Entering Day form:
On initial cast, all enemies in range (7m?) are ragdolled.
Damage boost for the current duration
Speed boost is now permanent to Day form (still scales with strength, because reasons)

this could be could be good. especially if we could recast this in night form.

[tnccs215]

Ugh. Even though I love to discuss Equinox, my energy for any sort of mental task, specially this one, has plummeled to the ground a few days earlier. I'd love to give a better commentary on all the rework ideas, but I simply don't have the energy. Anyway, I'll give some quick things:

@Azamagon: Both for convenience purposes, and pure innovation -- mean, let's be honest: Defense/healer classes being close to allies is a clichê more than anything. Hell, apparently overwatch is being innovative by making the first long range healer in a video-game, so if they can do it, why can't we? (btw I've liked the idea of equinox as a close-to-enemies support before Blizzard came along and stole my idea. I was khewl before them!)-- I prefer Night form to stay close to enemies. It doesn't require the constant back and forth that will be more tedious than engaging, will help maintaining ability similarity, and is simply cooler. For me at least.

@ChronoEclipse, I have some more detailed comments about your ideas:

first, the prefered positioning thing I mentioned above also applies here. Of course, as before, this is arguable-- though I think it is better for Night form to be close to enemies.

Now, onto the powers themselves.

Metamorphosis: Honestly, I prefer your version of it. Though it might be simpler and better for Night form "instant effect" to be "blind all enemies in range". I also think (instead) a permanent armour bonus would be cool, but eh, shields are cool too.

Subdue & Enrage: For both cases, I think the alternative augment should be a base thing(Though I might be thinking with the current difficulty of modding her). I like your Enrage changes, but Subdue sound a bit too... Bland. However, I might have got a better one: It would be more fitting for an ability named "Pacify", but it would be way too powerful for its mechanics (that apparently we all want to sort of keep: That is, it being an aura thing). However, it fits R&R mechanics perfectly: Ability and current augment names are inverted (ability is now Calm&Frenzy): Affected enemies have their aggro reduced to 0 for the time period, and will only fight back if attacked. If the frame is not in sight when the timer ends, they will remain in unalerted state. What do you think?

Pacify&Provoke:

I find some of this ideas quite good, but I have some problems with them. Pacify would be like putting a vest after getting shot-- a problem the current augment already has-- and the amount of times teammates are shot, energy could be quite problematic. Plus, the localization thing. I don't know, I prefer Azamagon's "close to enemies" version.

Provoke, on the other hand, actively discourages killing. That is really not a good thing I think, specially since part of it will be at the end of those you cant control: Your allies.

In both forms my main gripe is how some"investment" is required-- a problem we already see with both the augmented form and Mend&Maim.

With all that in mind, I think it would be better if Pacify mechanics were similar to Provokes-- in both cases, enemies in range are the affected ones-- and that the buffs (power strength and DR) are not stackable, instead being substantial values by themselves (that is, instead of being a base 20% stackable up to 80%, it would simply be a 50/60% affect by power strength); and in case of Pacify, they are applied before the shot (quite like argon scope works). I have no problems with the concept of the timers, though they could be a bit longer than 10 seconds I think. Around 15-20 maybe.

I'm ok with Pacify's triggering event (though, in the version I altered, it should be enemy shooting and hitting, and not ally getting shot); but I'm only ok if Provoke becomes the way I proposed, and any enemy killed while the timer (for that player) is up will not contribute to an additional energy cost.

The deactivation bonus is... Mh. Well, Day form is awfully abusable. Go to a place with tons of enemies, activate, deactivate, profit. Night form is ok, I suppose. However, as with @Azamagon's, I think it might be stepping on M&M's mechanics' shoes a bit too much.

Augment is good, specially Day form.

Mend:

That "once per second the difference between max and current health etc" Part will probably be both overkill and shug tons of processing power from lower end PC's. Might not be that good.

10 seconds seems a bit too low. Again, 20 might be better.

Maim: I like this changes. Synergizes well with Provoke. Also, that Nerf. However, this comes with problems: Should every target get the same amount of damage, or targets with higher health get a bugger fraction? Because it could be the difference between one shotting a lancer but the bombard next to him still having half his health-- and the overkill damage to the lancer went "wasted"-- or having all enemies surrounding you all staying at 2% health because, after all the calculations, that's the most equal thing you could get.

Perhaps in Mend&Maim case we should stick to the "75% killed enemy health" thing, while also buffing its range and making the multiplier affected by P. Strength?

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2016 by tnccs215

[Archwizard]

Aaaaaauugh I'm so far behind on the Equinox discussion, I've only just gotten through reading Azamagon's initial rework, and at the going rate I'll probably never catch up.

Some thoughts to add to the OP, feel free to review and veto:

• Metamorphosis transition speed is increased or possibly instant. Entering Night Form will offer a permanent increase to base armor, with a diminishing increase to speed. Entering Day Form will offer a permanent increase to base speed, with a diminishing increase to armor. (May have to reduce Equinox' base stats slightly to account for the increases becoming permanent.) Between these changes, I really feel like Equinox would get a small sense of the day giving way to the night and vice versa, rather than the hard transitions we have.
• In addition, I think Metamorphosis should provide some diminishing energy regen to the caster, regardless of which form you activate. It needs a benefit that players will really notice dropping off if the devs intend for you to swap frequently, and energy regeneration will help with the need to transition.
• As Azamagon and tnccs215 have said, P&P and M&M should automatically transition when you cast Metamorphosis, rather than forcing a recast. Particularly important in the latter case, so that one doesn't "erase" the other and the pool being generated can work together.
• Rage causes enemies to pause and roar for a moment upon activation. Azamagon's right, Rage should force a stagger; the animation here just seems more apropos to the effects. I'm also tempted to say it might be an idea to have it radiation proc/Chaos as well - give a full "BERSERK" mode - though that could be a better idea for an augment...
• Rest... should have a sense of being more passive, I think; right now the fact that you have to spam it for a perfect defense feels much too active. I want to make it more of a ground-placed effect, like a field you put down that automatically puts enemies who wander into it to sleep, but that would probably be too powerful (unless you put a limiter on the number of active fields, I suppose). I know you'll probably say it's fine for now, and I'll leave it to consideration, but something about its usage seems off.
• Azamagon suggested changing Pacify so that it applies a duration-based debuff to enemies who wander within; much better than the allied effect, very efficient to work with, so that'll be a marked improvement.
• Provoke... works as it is for now, I think. We need more abilities that affect other abilities, not less - right now most of the scaling effects available are those that scale off of weapon damage.
• For Mend & Maim, I think we should combine the functionality of the two as they're written in the OP, to provide more of a sense that they're two sides of the same coin. The effects they have while they're "building" can stay the same, and they share the same pool, but once activated, they create a field that will drain depending on who's standing within and what form you're in. If in Night form, as in the OP, you have a field that will heal automatically deplete to instantly heal allies within; if you're in Day form, you'll have a field that will automatically deplete to instantly harm enemies within. Casting Metamorphosis will automatically change which field is in use.

I still haven't taken too much consideration towards how well all of the effects in one form actually work within one kit; as I said before, Day Form feels too singularly focused compared to Night Form's room for utility. We'll see.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Archwizard

[tnccs215]

3 hours ago, Archwizard said:

 

don't worry, most of us are already quite tired, so the discussion will diminish substantially. Though, I'll give you some spoilers, so that you can be better aware of what was discussed.

 

-There will be some back and forth with pacify: Should it encourage proximity to allies, should it encourage proximity to enemies. Azamagon and ChronoEclipse seemed more into maintaining the "a healer stays closer to their allies" thing, but for convenience (having to constantly run back and forth from your allies to your enemies is more annoying than engaging) and originality's sake, I prefer the latter option (that is, the power continues to affect enemies). Regardless, we all liked that timer system as well, and we think it should also apply to allies and provoke (it's currently the second shortest range team buffing ability,other one being elemental ward; and one of the two who do not allow the effect to linger after allies leave the ability's range-- the other one being, too, elemental ward).

- There will be a discussion of making Rage the ally support skill and Provoke the team debuff skill. You'll see Ill both propose and back out on that, but in retrospective, I do think it might be a good idea. Azamagon will stay true to that idea though.

- A lot of "should we put this on Rage or Provoke?", to the point in which you'll see the same thing proposed for both at different times.

- There was also agreed that more utility is required for both Pacify and Provoke. A slow that falls off over distance seemed to please most as an addition to Pacify, but we couldn't find out a good thing to add to Provoke if it is to stay as a team buffing ability. If it becomes an enemy debuffer, however, an accuracy reduction (that also falls off over distance) seemed good.For originality and convenience, I choose the latter (that is, a version that affects enemies).

- We all thought your zone idea for Mend was very good, though we added the detail of an initial healing wave with no range limit (If trin has the speed and ease, Equinox might have to invest, but will not have the range limitation).

- Many different versions of Metamorphosis, all equally good.

- Ability name nitpicking.

- ChronoEclipse came late to the party, but gave some good propositions for Rest&Rage, and some interesting-- though, I think, flawed-- Propositions for Pacify and Provoke.

- Both Azamagon and ChronoEclipse want to give P&P deactivation Bonus, to encourage people to actually deactivate the ability. I personally think that is stepping a bit too much on Mend&Maim shoes, and don't hate the idea of one "Fire&Forget it" ability.

 

 

 

 

One way or another, regarding your comment:

- As said in the spoiler tab, there are a lot of metamorphosis propositions around, all of them good, and yours included. I don't particularly enjoy the idea of a reduction to her base stats however: I really think she's very average all around and a specific buff wouldn't hurt. Also, I don't dislike the idea of reducing or removing Metamorphosis transition time, but I remembered a functionality someone proposed once and that I grew found off: Deactivating M&M during the transition time would divide the stored HP in two, half would be used to heal allies, and half to damage enemies. There were some variations, but you get the idea. Thought it could be convenient to note.

- Energy regen seems interesting. I've also seen some people proposing making Metamorphosis free-of-charge. I wouldn't disagree, but maybe that shouldn't come with the absence of bonus.

- Won't comment on Rage since I think you need to read more of the discussion regarding it: Both it and Provoke suffered (as said in the spoiler tab) a lot of back and forth; with ability role swapping being always on the table. You'll see.

- After reading ChronoEclipse proposal, I got the idea of changing Rest to an ability that reduces enemy alert state to 0. You'd reach it sooner or later, but thought it would be convenient. And yes, I agree that a zone where all entering enemies fall asleep would be too powerful. Also, for similarity purposes, shouldn't rage (if you prefer for it to remain an enemy debuffer) have similar mechanics, creating a zone? Don't know. To be honest, this is the ability that most allows divergence between mirror versions, and maybe that is ok.

- Everyone loved Azamagon's timer idea too.

- Again, a lot of discussion happened around Provoke, so I won't comment.

- I do like that idea. As you surely know (or will know), alterations to Mend were set relatively early (spoiler tab as more on that). Making Mend create a zone that heals allies, and Maim one that damages enemies would be very cool. However, I can see some possible variations on the ability that, while small, make it rather different. This variations are based around how should the Pool be disposed. It could be overtime, with the Dome having a set duration and each tick would either heal or damage a fraction of the total stored HP. Alternatively, it would be distributed "by demand", with allies being healed only when they need, and enemies having their health damaged when they enter. There are some problems and benefits with each one, though: The first is more akin to Maim, having the same "HP" being able of affecting more than one character (but shouldnt an allie need healing, some of it would be unused), while the second is more well suited for Mend (having a full use of the pool, but without "sharing" possible). Perhaps each version of the power should get the best type for it?

Edited August 16, 2016 by tnccs215
Cellphone text edition is a nightmare

[Archwizard]

3 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

- As said in the spoiler tab

(as said in the spoiler tab)

(spoiler tab as more on that)

... is there a specific one I'm supposed to look at amongst the many used by people over the course of the recent discussions, or did you not intend to put the literal entirety of your post in one...?

3 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Azamagon and ChronoEclipse seemed more into maintaining the "a healer stays closer to their allies" thing

- We all thought your zone idea for Mend was very good, though we added the detail of an initial healing wave with no range limit (If trin has the speed and ease, Equinox might have to invest, but will not have the range limitation).

Seems a bit conflicting, no?

At any rate, a single player in the Mend field effectively adds the entire pool of it to their health. Having it give an infinite range top-off on top of that just seems extraneous.

3 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

- Both Azamagon and ChronoEclipse want to give P&P deactivation Bonus, to encourage people to actually deactivate the ability. I personally think that is stepping a bit too much on Mend&Maim shoes, and don't hate the idea of one "Fire&Forget it" ability.

I actually agree with you there, about it stepping on M&M's toes. Furthermore, P&P is an effect that's only situationally active to start with.

I disagree with an effect like World on Fire always being active because it means your abilities are fighting for you. P&P are just auras that provide buffs; you still have to act on them independently.

3 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

- There was also agreed that more utility is required for both Pacify and Provoke. A slow that falls off over distance seemed to please most as an addition to Pacify, but we couldn't find out a good thing to add to Provoke if it is to stay as a team buffing ability. If it becomes an enemy debuffer, however, an accuracy reduction (that also falls off over distance) seemed good.For originality and convenience, I choose the latter (that is, a version that affects enemies).

Funny thing is, I would have agreed with giving Pacify a slow... before we all agreed that it should have some Duration to affect its efficiency over time. If the effect's cost scaled with the rate at which enemies attacked (as written in the OP), it would make absolute perfect sense for the effect to slow enemies (and for the player to spam Rest where possible) to increase that efficiency. Now though, it would just be a matter of folding the augment into the base effect.

As I said before though, in my opinion, Provoke is already one of the more interesting abilities in Equinox' kit simply because its mindset comes from a completely different paradigm than we've seen in Warframe; its existence opens the possibility of having effects that enhance Power Duration, Range, or Efficiency directly _^(cough). I'm not really sure it even requires having a bonus Duration on the player since the effect is already vastly more efficient than Pacify.

3 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

- A lot of "should we put this on Rage or Provoke?", to the point in which you'll see the same thing proposed for both at different times.

Let's just be definitive about this then: Rage is a debuff on an enemy that causes them to go berserk (in my mind, like the classic RPG status debuff that causes an enemy to lose control in exchange for power - or to a lesser extent, just forcing them into a bit of a "road rage", no longer thinking straight and just being mad), exposing their weaknesses. Provoke is a buff on allies attempting (poorly) to fit a naming scheme.

... unless it actually caused you to have increased threat. That could provide some interesting interactions between Provoke and Rage or Metamorphosis, in spite of Day form being "squishy". Casting Rage with Provoke active taunting enemies toward you, swapping to Metamorphosis to tank their damage with Pacify or slapping them with a Rest so they're right where you want them...

Playing with threat could actually be a thing for both Pacify and Provoke - imagine playing stealth on Equinox just by reducing enemy awareness...

3 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Also, I don't dislike the idea of reducing or removing Metamorphosis transition time, but I remembered a functionality someone proposed once and that I grew found off: Deactivating M&M during the transition time would divide the stored HP in two, half would be used to heal allies, and half to damage enemies.

Making Mend create a zone that heals allies, and Maim one that damages enemies would be very cool. However, I can see some possible variations on the ability that, while small, make it rather different. [...] Alternatively, it would be distributed "by demand", with allies being healed only when they need, and enemies having their health damaged when they enter. [...] Perhaps each version of the power should get the best type for it?

Having the "split effect during transition" would be kinda redundant if you could already do both before and after the transition, no?

The way I was thinking of the field would be having both effects "by demand", as it is in the OP. The way I see it, Maim doesn't need any more over-time effects if it already forces a bleed on everyone involved. Once deactivated, the "by demand" field would function the same as now, just not wasting any of the leftover charge - or better yet, allowing you to swap forms and use that leftover charge for the other form.

Plus you could probably use Rage to, technically, reduce the target's health cap for the purposes of the ability, causing it to drain less of the damage pool.

3 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

And yes, I agree that a zone where all entering enemies fall asleep would be too powerful. Also, for similarity purposes, shouldn't rage (if you prefer for it to remain an enemy debuffer) have similar mechanics, creating a zone? 

... No. Rage increases the target's mobility (and I just proposed having it cause the enemy to turn on its allies too), so having the effect be static in the world makes zero sense; it just turns it into a gravity well, an anti-speed bump, that propels enemies out of the debuff at increased speed. In any case, whether or not it created a field wouldn't matter since stats could still affect both sides of the ability in the same ways; it's just a matter of whether the debuff it attached to the enemy or not.
Furthermore, separating the activation type of each means it makes sense for this to be the one ability that doesn't directly change when Metamorphosis activates. And of course, you could throw down Rest, swap forms and en-Rage enemies into running into it.

As I was hinting towards before, I feel like Rest and Rage need to embody the spirit of the Taijitu, since (due to the limited direct-benefit of Metamorphosis) it's essentially the substitute basic skill of each form. Yin represents passivity and stillness, Yang represents activity and energy. It makes sense for the Night form to be reactive, allowing things to come to you; it makes sense for the Day form to be proactive, going out of your way to apply the debuff, actively targeting almost everyone affected.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Archwizard

[Azamagon]

8 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Seems a bit conflicting, no?

Yes, because those opinions are seperated: If Equinox is supposed to be close to allies, the dome is totally awesome. But if she is about being close to enemies, the dome alone is probably not as good, so an unlimited initial healing wave would be nice (too), as then you could be wherever on the field (i.e. close to enemies) and allies will still benefit.

About some other notes here from you guys:
I'd really not like to change how Rest works. I find it one of the more fun effects in the game: Sleeping enemies into Finishers feels really nice and fun to me. I don't want that removed please! It's also the only way for Nighquinox to feel aggressive in any way. Being purely a support in Night form would both be very boring (imo) and niched (what if no ally needs any healing or defense? Then Nighquinox has no use at all, which would make her even more niched than now. Keep Rest as it is, as it makes her viable in more general gameplay. It also fits with stealthiness. Night, Sleep and Stealth all are words that seem fitting to me)

Reading about the Equinox discussions further, I think I'm close to being done on my version of Equinox (only thing still bothering me is the Mend's passive, really).

The final "intentions", in summary:
* Equinox's positioning is all about being close to enemies (Mend's passive being the only possible exception to this), but being close to allies is also a (lesser) option.
* Rage & Rest will embody the spirit of Taijitsu a bit more, as per @Archwizard's request: Rage is about activity, Rest is about passivity. R&R will both have an effect on enemies and on allies, and now has casting-synergy for ally buffing through P&P.
 

Metamorphosis:
* Instant use, but has a 1 sec recast cooldown instead.
* Some part of her buff is permanent, while the other buff decays over time. Akin to what Archwizard proposed (permaspeed and fading armor for Day vs permaarmor and fading speed for Night) sounds good enough to me.
* When Metamorphosis is used, M&M and P&P auras are kept on, but swapped in effect.

Rage:
* Allies caught in the blast get a buff towards Power Strength, melee damage and movementspeed. Equinox always benefit from the buff, no matter where the blast is cast.
* Enemies caught in the blast are first angered (stun effect or some kind of frenzied animation), then they will be running faster and be disarmed for the duration. No longer causes them to suffer more damage taken (that is fixed by Provoke).

Rest:
* Allies caught in the blast will heal some health (and maybe small amounts of energy?) over time, but it only regens them while they stay still. Equinox will always benefit from this buff, no matter where the blast is cast.
* Enemies caught in the blast will fall asleep, just like now.

Notes:
By making Rage temporarily disarm enemies (that was a good idea @ChronoEclipse, props for that!) and buffing allied melee damage, it gives the ability a feeling of mirroring the melee aspect of Rest (you can take your time with powerful finishers with Rest, contra enemies now have to use melee + you strike harder with Rage + more movespeed for ally and enemy alike, making it a more chaotic melee-feeling), it gives it some CC along with the initial "frenzy", and it makes enemies get close to you and your Maim power. Synergy and thematic!
Personally, I find Rage being a "disarming enemy-enrager" far more interesting abilty than its current effect, so I'm heavily gonna promote this version of Rage :)

Provoke:
* Still an aura. It debuffs enemies when you get near them, draining a very small amount of energy from Equinox. This debuff lingers on them indefinitely for as long as they are inside the aura. If they are debuffed but get outside the aura somehow, the debuff lingers on them for X seconds after.
* The debuff causes enemies to suffer X% more damage taken and to miss Y% more.
* The strength of the miss effect is dependant on how close you are to the enemy: If they are very close, they will miss very much. If they are at the edge or outside the aura, the miss effect has minimal effect.
* If an enemy who is outside the aura hurts Equinox or her allies who are inside the Provoke-aura, the enemy is also instantly debuffed.
* If Rage is cast while Provoke is active, allies within the Provoke aura also gets the allied Rage-benefits!

Pacify:
* Still an aura. It debuffs enemies when you get near them, draining a very small amount of energy from Equinox. This debuff lingers on them indefinitely for as long as they are inside the aura. If they are debuffed but get outside the aura somehow, the debuff lingers on them for X seconds after.
* The debuff causes enemies to deal X% less damage and to be slowed down by Y%.
* The strength of the slow effect is dependant on how close you are to the enemy: If they are very close, they will be slowed down a lot. If they are at the edge or outside the aura, the slow effect has minimal effect.
* If an enemy who is outside the aura hurts Equinox or her allies who are inside the Pacify-aura, the enemy is also instantly debuffed.
* If Rest is cast while Pacify is active, allies within the Pacify aura also gets the allied Rest-benefits!

Note: Augment needs some changing.

Maim:
* Fueling the ability: Enemies who die inside the aura or allies who are hurt inside the aura fuels it. Fueling ratio is buffed (reason: Due to change on the released effect)
* Passive aura: Staggers and bleeds. Flat bleed damage reduced, but now also bleeds a percent of their health based on their current hp (not max hp, as that would be too abuseable). Both flat and percentage damage effects are affected by Power Strength.
* Activated "boom": Creates a dome of slashing energy which lingers for X seconds. Once an enemy enters, it is struck by as much damage which is needed to kill it (if possible), draining away from the dome's health the same amount. (Note: This obviously means it no longer has a range diminish either). This also means that Provoke (or any other more-damage-taken-debuff etc) will indirectly reduce the amount of dome health needed to be drained to kill an enemy. Maim's damage prioritizes striking enemies closer to the centre of the Maim dome (if unleashed over multiple enemies).

Mend:
* Fueling the ability: Enemies who die inside the aura or allies who are hurt inside the aura fuels it. Fueling ratio is buffed (reason: Due to change on the released effect)
* Passive aura: I want the effect to be something which detriments enemies (in a defensive way for allies), but if Mend's passive simply restores health and/or shields over time, I guess that is fine *shrugs*. Every second, it restores a small flat amount and a decently sized chunk of health/shields based on how much you and/or your allies are missing (closer to death = more restored, to mirror a somewhat similar and yet opposite effect from Maim's passive, and which also makes it more useful to swap over to Mend in emergencies). Both flat and percentage restore effects are affected by Power Strength.
* Activated "boom": Creates a dome of healing energy which lingers for X seconds. Once an ally enters, it instantly heals up the full amount of health needed to restore max health, continuously. This healing retracts from the dome's "health".

Notes on both:
There is no limit to amount of domes available (if so, then at least 4 should be available?). Swapping your form with Metamorphosis changes all the existing domes' effect from either healing allies or hurting enemies. (Nice idea, @Archwizard!)

While I don't like Mend being all about, well, Mending (lol) with rangelimits (thus causing it to be all about ally proximity) I guess it is fine anyway? The Mend's dome at least alleviates quite a lot of that problem I guess? *shrugs*

Ending words:

While it may not be the optimal Equinox one could revamp, I'd still say that these changes would make me happy, and I'd enjoy to play Equinox more as it:
1) Makes Rage feel useful (both in general, and for her overall kit) and probably would become as fun to spam as Rest is right now to me, hehe :P
2) Makes Rage and Rest feel like melee-themed abilities which sort of fit in to the Taijitsu mindset of Yin & Yang (activity vs passivity), especially the ally buff components
3) Makes Mend and Maim both more fair and interesting: Mend is easier to heal with, both passively and actively (good) and Maim is less cheesy to kill with, both passively and actively (good, albeit maybe slighly less fun to some? :P). Both are also kept as relevant abilities on higher levels, which is great too.
4) Keeps Pacify and Provoke as "fire and forget" skills (to reduce swapping-stress), but are still a bit more interesting in having more "oomph" on the battlefield, due to their added miss- and slow-effects. Also, despite being a "fire and forget" kind of ability, the suggested mechanics can allow you to position yourself more creatively.
5) Keeps the unique Power Strength buff (albeit now as a buff-component in Rage)
6) Makes Equinox (Mend somewhat aside) best played close to enemies, but can still be close to allies (due to the P&P mechanics). R&R having the possibility to buff allies from both afar and closeby (especially with the P&P synergy) helps with that too.

Gonna go eat now, might edit a tiny bit more here later.