Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Jamescell]

Most of these changes seem extremely "inside the box". Allot of them are common sense things to change, but the changes you suggest are usually so minimal that broken skill-sets won't be fixed even with the entirety of your changes. 

 

Don't get me wrong, good work, but the fixes in this post definitely don't tune up all the frames to anywhere near where they should be. 

Edited August 13, 2014 by Jamescell

[Archwizard]

There is much to cover here, so I will confine my response to just Nekros. If you want to rework soul punch or make it scale better or even change it fine. If you want to make some tweaks to Terrify or SotD, ok maybe... just do not remove the debuff of terrify, and frankly only some AI tweaks are needed on SotD but I'm open to other ideas. Desecrate is fine you hardly have to give up all the utility of sotd and terrify just to be able to mass spam desecrate, and in extended survival runs the debuff is real nice. I wouldn't be bothered if desecrate was a little more reliable cause sometimes staring at the corpse while spamming is annoying. Note firing a round into a corpse tends to stop the need to spam and cause it to give up the goods more often than not so it's probably a bug.

 

Nekros currently has three nice skills, and one that scales really bad no matter what you do. I just do not understand why giving up 3 good skills for four mediocre ones is going to be better? 

 

Shadows would out-and-out be improved, and as you were saying, Soul Punch is rather replaceable - so that's at least 2 'good' skills out of 4 'mediocres' you speak of.

Terrify, I gave my reasoning for removing the debuff; the math just doesn't agree with it. (I've heard some complaints that I didn't account for Corrosive Projection - which is a silly complaint, given that Corrosive Projection can stack to >100% on its own, as can Corrosive weapon procs, while Terrify's debuff can't be stacked.) I opted instead to compress the full crowd control potential of Nekros' arsenal into one skill, and merge the damage potential of Terrify into other skills.

 

Desecrate is an argument I've had several times. While there's an alternate, fantasy form in the OP that involves making the skill activate 100% of the time, the devs would argue that the RNG element is the only drawback it has. At present, it is the only part of his arsenal worth taking at all - and overrides gameplay due to both the RNG/necessity to spam and cast time lockdown.

 

Most of these changes seem extremely "inside the box". Allot of them are common sense things to change, but the changes you suggest are usually so minimal that broken skill-sets won't be fixed even with the entirety of your changes. 

 

Don't get me wrong, good work, but the fixes in this post definitely don't tune up all the frames to anywhere near where they should be. 

 

A fair assessment. As improvements (and long-standing bugfixes) have come to the Warframes since this OP was originally listed, a lot of the changes to frames like Ash, Banshee and Valkyr have been successively downplayed into the lower lists - which are exactly as "minimal" and "inside the box" as you say. A few days ago I went through the lower lists and streamlined the changes as much as possible, to keep them simple.

 

While I'm very proud of Nekros, Oberon and Saryn's sections in the OP, I've looked at Ember several times feeling I could do more; at present she's only a step away from joining the lower lists, though I feel she's one of the frames who perhaps needs the biggest look since she was turned into a glass cannon.

 

As I've stated before, suggestions are appreciated.

[Elydir]

Most of these changes seem extremely "inside the box". Allot of them are common sense things to change, but the changes you suggest are usually so minimal that broken skill-sets won't be fixed even with the entirety of your changes. 

 

Don't get me wrong, good work, but the fixes in this post definitely don't tune up all the frames to anywhere near where they should be. 

 

Sounds pretty vague to me.

[LordSebastian]

Well, i didnt read all changes, but Saryn and Necros.... my main frame - Saryn, and i love playing her. but i feel she's now quite weak and replased by other frames. But your ideas are GREAT. Exactly THOSE abilities i wanted to see on her.
And Necros. when i saw him first time(devstream with Necro) i hoped he will be exactly Necromancer.

Upd. read all changes - all balanced enough and geeat! Well done!

[Archwizard]

Sounds pretty vague to me.

 

Also true, I suppose. Would be nice if Jamescell was more specific as to which frames he means - several of the frames in the OP are SUPPOSED to have in-the-box fixes; often the best solution is a simple solution, especially for the frames that only need minor tweaks to be up to par given the advancing tech and tuning knobs being put into the game (like toggles and statuses). While frames like Nekros and Oberon need some pretty severe splints and braces based on how they've been since they came out, someone like Mag really only needs older skills to be slightly more useful.

[Archwizard]

So. After a month of careful consideration, I have a preliminary list of alternate abilities I'd consider adding to the OP.

 

The idea here is that each Warframe gets their base 4 abilities (as current, unless changed in the OP) upon making a frame, with these four removed from the drop table and added to the market, but has to obtain their 5th ability through other means (say, special mission rewards); the 5th ability is exclusive with one ability slot, so you can't use it while you have one specific other ability equipped - in short, a temporary replacement ability, designed to shake up the playstyle. For example, Ember's alternate ability is exclusive with Fire Blast, so you can equip Fireball, Accelerant and World on Fire freely, but you must choose between Fire Blast and the new ability for her 3. This is a preventative measure for several frames, so that you don't equip two ultimates, or pair two abilities that would make overpowered supplements.

 

Thoughts? Should I add a preview list here before continuing, or scrap the idea as a fantasy and leave this thread for frame correction?

[Azamagon]

So. After a month of careful consideration, I have a preliminary list of alternate abilities I'd consider adding to the OP.

 

The idea here is that each Warframe gets their base 4 abilities (as current, unless changed in the OP) upon making a frame, with these four removed from the drop table and added to the market, but has to obtain their 5th ability through other means (say, special mission rewards); the 5th ability is exclusive with one ability slot, so you can't use it while you have one specific other ability equipped - in short, a temporary replacement ability, designed to shake up the playstyle. For example, Ember's alternate ability is exclusive with Fire Blast, so you can equip Fireball, Accelerant and World on Fire freely, but you must choose between Fire Blast and the new ability for her 3. This is a preventative measure for several frames, so that you don't equip two ultimates, or pair two abilities that would make overpowered supplements.

 

Thoughts? Should I add a preview list here before continuing, or scrap the idea as a fantasy and leave this thread for frame correction?

I'd like to see your ideas for sure, but maybe make it a seperate thread, but which has a link to this thread? It could get a bit cluttered otherwise

[LukeAura]

Thoughts? Should I add a preview list here before continuing, or scrap the idea as a fantasy and leave this thread for frame correction?

I'm agreeing with Azamagon, new thread, drop a link here for all who care to keep things organized. 

[Archwizard]

I'd like to see your ideas for sure, but maybe make it a seperate thread, but which has a link to this thread? It could get a bit cluttered otherwise

I'm agreeing with Azamagon, new thread, drop a link here for all who care to keep things organized. 

 

And I'd consider that, but unfortunately...

 

1. Several of the ideas in the list are counterparts to ideas in the OP. For example, Nekros' alternate ability depends on whether or not my or DiabolusUrsus' version is accepted, and Saryn's replaces Allure (which would be an unusual name to someone who hasn't read this thread).

2. There's another thread listing alternate abilities, which would likely see my version merged into it.

[Elydir]

And I'd consider that, but unfortunately...

 

1. Several of the ideas in the list are counterparts to ideas in the OP. For example, Nekros' alternate ability depends on whether or not my or DiabolusUrsus' version is accepted, and Saryn's replaces Allure (which would be an unusual name to someone who hasn't read this thread).

2. There's another thread listing alternate abilities, which would likely see my version merged into it.

 

Then I say just spoiler it in this thread, but dont add it to the OP straight away until we all get a look at it. Not like current discussion is going places anyway.

[Archwizard]

Tenno,

Please take a look at the coming changes to Oberon and his powers in the next major Warframe update (hopefully this week on PC!). It’s worth noting that all the listed details below are subject to change. Please feel free to discuss these within this thread.

Armor:

- Oberon’s base Armor increased to 150.

Smite:

- Projectiles that are spawned after impact seek-to-target, not just spawned in direction.

- Speed up projectiles by 50%.

- Forced Radiation proc on the initial target.

- Forced Knock-down on initial target instead of stumble.

- Forced Puncture proc on all enemies hit.

 

Hallowed Ground:

- Allies within Hallowed Ground can not be proc’ed.

- Hallowed Ground will remove all existing procs from Allies.

- Armour boosted by 5/10/15/20% per rank for all Allies with Hallowed Ground, with stacking being explored on multiple casts.

 

Renewal:

- Switch to toggle ability with smaller base cost and energy per second active drain. All Renewal benefits occur when projectile reaches target ally.

- Boost Heal amount 200/250/300/400 per rank.

- When target is fully healed, remove proc effects.

- Allies bleeding out are affected by Renewal in that bleedout will be slowed. 20/25/35/45% per rank as well as affected by duration mods.

 

Reckoning:

- Forced Radiation Proc added to damage on targets.

- Small radial blind added to slam impact, but only for enemies that survive the damage of the cast. This radial blind will be applied to enemies that move into range after it’s been cast and are blinded by the impact of those being slammed by Reckoning!

 

Thank you for reading!

 

Holy crap. It's like they've been copying straight from the OP as I've been writing it (barring Durendal and Guardian Oath).

 

Right down to Smite causing Puncture status!

[Azamagon]

Holy crap. It's like they've been copying straight from the OP as I've been writing it (barring Durendal and Guardian Oath).

 

Right down to Smite causing Puncture status!

Indeed, very interesting! :)

But they got Renewal all wrong, imo. Why make it a toggle, when it still has projectiles and a set amount of healing? -.- And why make it deal with procs too, when Hallowed Ground does it so much more reliably and all?

If only they made one overhaul more, to Renewal, I'd be happy. Something like this:

 

* Renewal Guardian's Oath

* Now is a toggled aura-like ability, healing all allies by X amount every second (affected by power strength) if they are within X metres of Oberon (affected by power range).

* Any ally suffering damage now instantly causes damage towards their attacker, dealing 15/30/45/60% of their own damage back at them (affected by power strength). Debattable if this applies to shield damage as well.

* Allies that are downed have their bleedout timer slowed down by 20/25/35/45% if they are within this aura. (The potency is affected by power duration)

 

Done. Simple and functional rather than overly complicated and gimmicky

[Archwizard]

Indeed, very interesting! :)

But they got Renewal all wrong, imo. Why make it a toggle, when it still has projectiles and a set amount of healing? -.- And why make it deal with procs too, when Hallowed Ground does it so much more reliably and all?

If only they made one overhaul more, to Renewal, I'd be happy. Something like this:

 

* Renewal Guardian's Oath

* Now is a toggled aura-like ability, healing all allies by X amount every second (affected by power strength) if they are within X metres of Oberon (affected by power range).

* Any ally suffering damage now instantly causes damage towards their attacker, dealing 15/30/45/60% of their own damage back at them (affected by power strength). Debattable if this applies to shield damage as well.

* Allies that are downed have their bleedout timer slowed down by 20/25/35/45% if they are within this aura. (The potency is affected by power duration)

 

Done. Simple and functional rather than overly complicated and gimmicky

 

I'm saving my opinions until they actually release it and I can see it in action (although having Renewal and Hallowed Ground cancel procs DOES seem odd...). Thus far, I think it's interesting that they went the "half damage, half survival" route with each of his skills, though, and it will give Oberon new depths to be able to pop Hallowed Ground on a fight like Raptor or Sargas Ruk and just no-sell all of their knockbacks and incendiaries.

 

There are some implications to Hallowed Ground, however, that I'd seriously like to explore - will the armor bonus affect a cryopod (yes, it's affected by Warcry, but how much)? Will the status immunity affect environmental traps, like the Grineer magnet door (probably) or Void ice patches (maybe not)? Will it be summoned under Oberon's feet in a firefight, or will you have to cast a few stacks and quickly roll forward into the fruit of your labors?

 

(Also Guardian Oath is supposed to be a mitigative ability, not a healing skill.)

[Elydir]

I think its a bit ironic that there was already a thread for Oberon feedback, but the complaint about additions relevant to this thread is that it would be too cluttered.

 

Anywho. Whats the plan for Oberon's place in the OP?

[Archwizard]

Whats the plan for Oberon's place in the OP?

 

I've updated it. I was planning to move it into the lower sections, but some more recent testing has compelled me to use a muted version of what was already written, in the hopes of a final push toward where he should be.

 

As for the 'relevant additions', I assume you mean the alternate abilities? If there's enough support, I'll put the list in here.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

Can you make a specific entry for Zephyr? Having Dive Bomb as a seperate ability is kind of redundant. Turbulence and Tornado really could use a rework to be more consistent in their effects. A CC ability other than her ult would be nice as well. Also, would you mind taking a look at this? I think it might be helpful.

[Archwizard]

Can you make a specific entry for Zephyr? Having Dive Bomb as a seperate ability is kind of redundant. Turbulence and Tornado really could use a rework to be more consistent in their effects. A CC ability other than her ult would be nice as well. Also, would you mind taking a look at this? I think it might be helpful.

 

I think that's in part because your expectations of Zephyr are a bit off. Tail Wind is supposed to be more of a mobility skill, while Dive Bomb is both a more controlled damaging attack (albeit the damage it deals is not terribly impressive, but synergizes well with Heavy Impact) and exactly the kind of CC that you're referring to due to its guaranteed knockdown (I've seen the Grustrag Three stunlocked by someone jumping and smacking Dive Bomb - which is exactly the scenario TW/DB being separate abilities is a good thing).

[taiiat]

I think that's in part because your expectations of Zephyr are a bit off. Tail Wind is supposed to be more of a mobility skill, while Dive Bomb is both a more controlled damaging attack (albeit the damage it deals is not terribly impressive, but synergizes well with Heavy Impact) and exactly the kind of CC that you're referring to due to its guaranteed knockdown (I've seen the Grustrag Three stunlocked by someone jumping and smacking Dive Bomb - which is exactly the scenario TW/DB being separate abilities is a good thing).

Dive Bomb just isn't practical though. to actually keep Enemies stunned, you're forced to spend all your time using it. over and over. non stop.

 

and for it to deal any Damage whatsoever, you need Heavy Impact. even then, Heavy Impact doesn't do all that much Damage, it's maximum Damage is achieved by diving like, 7.5m. 

i just don't get why Dive Bomb can't scale into truly useful territory the farther you're diving. so that if you fall a long ways on a more open tile, you can knock Enemies down for a fair amount of time and deal some useful Damage.

 

 

would also like for Heavy Impact and Divebomb to be more reliable... if you hit an inch above or below an Enemy that's on some stairs or a ramp, it'll completely miss them.

 

(would also like Divebomb to have a 10x Multiplier for Damage on any Enemy you hit directly)

while we're at it, Divebomb shouldn't have Damage falloff on the 'explosion'. it's not dealing noticable Damage already, making it even less is REALLY not helping.

[DrBorris]

I had a really complicated (but I think good) idea for Ember's WoF, making it CC, damage, and skill oriented. I would love feedback. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/288093-embers-world-on-fire-rework/#entry3299544

[ZephyrWolf]

I have a couple suggestions for tweaks to zephyr

 

Shouldn't Zephyr's abilities do gas damage? I don't have any problem with magnetic but it only makes sense right? WTF kind of tornadoes are made out of magnets?

 

I also think that wind based abilities should be able to clear toxic clouds and fire status effects. Not necessarily just on friendlies for balance's sake. It would help make the game more organic and realistic in that regard.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

I have a couple suggestions for tweaks to zephyr

 

Shouldn't Zephyr's abilities do gas damage? I don't have any problem with magnetic but it only makes sense right? WTF kind of tornadoes are made out of magnets?

 

I also think that wind based abilities should be able to clear toxic clouds and fire status effects. Not necessarily just on friendlies for balance's sake. It would help make the game more organic and realistic in that regard.

Well, then Ember would have to melt Ice, and Hydroid would have to put out fires as well, right?

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

I think that's in part because your expectations of Zephyr are a bit off. Tail Wind is supposed to be more of a mobility skill, while Dive Bomb is both a more controlled damaging attack (albeit the damage it deals is not terribly impressive, but synergizes well with Heavy Impact) and exactly the kind of CC that you're referring to due to its guaranteed knockdown (I've seen the Grustrag Three stunlocked by someone jumping and smacking Dive Bomb - which is exactly the scenario TW/DB being separate abilities is a good thing).

Well, the thing is, Dive Bomb has about the same CC effectiveness as Valkyr's Paralysis (which costs 1/5 the amount of energy and is more spammable). When it comes down to actually being in combat (not just against a few targets), the only real CC that Zephyr has is her Ult. Also, Dive Bomb is just as much of a mobility skill, since Zephyr takes forever to fall from high places. And is there that much of a difference between jumping+pressing 2, and jumping+looking down+pressing 2? Well, anyway, just wanted to discuss some things with you. I could always make my own rework thread.

[LukeAura]

Durendal, you gave Oberon an ability named after the sword of an actual historical paladin. And the effect with it is nice too.
I can almost imagine it as a giant glowing galatine of holy vengeance sweeping through enemies. 
Everything else in his new touch ups look great. 
 

[Verdha603]

Absolute +1 on this. I pray to god DE takes a look at this and at least tries to use some of it to make the game better. I'm sure we can all agree that incorporating more synergy when it comes to using frames together (in a co-op game especially) would make the game far more enjoyable).

[ZephyrWolf]

Well, then Ember would have to melt Ice, and Hydroid would have to put out fires as well, right?

Well, yeah, but I'm not sure if there's really much ice to melt (beyond Glaxion death anim? But they're already dead or friendly frost's freeze, which'll already deactivate if they take too much damage) and yes, it would make a lot of sense if hydriod could put out fires too.