Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Noble_Cactus]

I don't disagree, but having Despoil tie into health gives wiggle room to be more offensive with the ult and terrify. The ult and terrify are still pretty bad in my book, though. I'm still looking forward to when they actually do do something to make him less of a farmer, I just think that this bandaid makes him more palatable to me, personally.

Oh, I undestand. I'm going to pick the mod up when I get the chance (I haven't really been motivated to play WF lately tbh) just because it ties into Equilibrium like you said. If anything, it could hopefully bring to light how bad his other abilities are as more people use them.

Unfortunately, the chances of Desecrate being anything but a farming tool are slim now, or at least will be for a long time. Do... people actually LIKE using Desecrate that much? Does anyone know the other Nekros augments that the design council voted on?

[Elydir]

Does anyone know the other Nekros augments that the design council voted on?

 

I'm unsure we're allowed to discuss anything in the DC outside of the DC, but its probably safe to say Despoil had nothing to do with us.

[Archwizard]

To discuss the augments situation -

 

As you all know, several of the changes in the OP were designed to give each ability unique scaling functions (or failing that, scaling damage) within each Warframe's kit - synergistic crowd control, self-buffs or enemy debuffs for damage or mitigation, etc. The goal was that, as level increased, each ability would still maintain a function other than "something to tap while reloading".

 

Well, the functions of an augment appear to be much the same, but with a catch: there's a reputation gate to get them. This appears to be irrelevant to Scott, much as there is a grind wall for other rare mods like Continuity, but it's quite relevant to the player (especially as it's notably longer for augments, and there's a difference between improving an existing effect and adding a necessary one).
Let's say you grind out Sargas Ruk for an Ember, you rank her to 30 quickly in Dark Sectors due to her high output but find she's less useful beyond that point due to her low utility; now there's a month of grinding Red Veil to get her augments for that very utility.
On the other hand, you have augments such as Curative Undertow: you don't feel the need to grind them. It's exactly the sort of minor boost that the devs were hoping for.

 

So what's the difference? The ability being augmented already has a utility (or at least a way to scale), and a very different one at that.

 

Fire Blast was, before Damage 2.0, designed to give Ember the very kind of area-control that her augment now does. This, in particular, makes it upsetting as a function she already had was stolen from her, only to force players to buy it back. I could maybe understand this method being used in the case of an overpowered ability - balancing it by segmenting the effect (though it's still a rude way to do it either way) - but as we can all agree, Fire Blast wasn't one in the first place.

 

Several changes suggested in the OP or in other threads have been turned into augments. I'm not upset with that.

What's upsetting is that the abilities still don't have functionality without them. I would be totally fine with Ice Wave creating a frozen patch with its augment - I would have put it in the OP myself had I not heard the DC was going to be discussing further augments - if Ice Wave itself had some knockback (it would be much easier to rank one effect up than the other, after all). I would be fine with the Eximus effect becoming Fire Blast's augment, if Fire Blast could reliably lock down enemies trying to get in without.

 

I'll probably modify the OP soon to cover existing augments, including a section dedicated to them. Suggestions will be entirely welcome.

 

TL;DR: One of the first stated goals of this thread was that each frame should be fun and viable without the need to put gimmick mods on them. Augments are exactly the kind of gimmick mod I was referring to.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Archwizard

[BETAOPTICS]

I'm unsure we're allowed to discuss anything in the DC outside of the DC, but its probably safe to say Despoil had nothing to do with us.

I do not think there was actually vote was there? I think they just asked for suggestions and then chose them. If there was a vote then the result was predictable. And not because it is fun on its own right, but because it makes rest of the game a bit less painful ability. This is the overall sentiment I have heard when it comes to this ability and why it is so popular in its use and build. Not fun, but makes the rest of the game less painful. Which really illustrates the core issue of the game itself if you need to make a gimmick ability as a band-aid to already existing problem of the gimped player vs. loot system.

Sure, as an ability it is unique and brings something to the table that others do not in both good and bad. But because of how the game works overall and because it is a Warframe ability and not one of those general ability mods they once talked about ( not sure if they were scrapped now that ability cards got removed ), the ability as it is now is unhealthy for the overall gameplay experience of the game, players and the Warframe itself as well. It has no place to be in this game, or I do not see how you could include such an ability and yet, make it so that it would not be the only ability being used, even if the loot tables and drops were finally fixed.

[Elydir]

I do not think there was actually vote was there? I think they just asked for suggestions and then chose them.

 

There was a vote, but not for Desecrate.

[Renkai141]

To any casters idea(Frost/Ember/Volt). just like in the trailer, what if we had moves that would d charge?

Holding down the ability to become more powerfull. In the future it could work for other moves, but I think it could be tested out for Ash's Shurikens(charge for 5 shurikens), or ember will throw a bigger blast that catches on fire. Frost will have his ice go through enemies and explode and hit enemies around him. Stuff like that, the concept for the mechanic sounds good @ first but I don't know if people would actually find it viable.

[Archwizard]

I started working in some edits relevant to the addition of augments, especially with Ember (and the Infusion augments of other elementals).

 

I'm open to suggestions for Excalibur's augments, as well as perhaps Pool of Life being that its position is... bizarre.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Archwizard

[Winged-Wolf]

these are great ideas. I wish Saryn's kit was as you said I would be truly happy. 

[NyxCrab]

I think some good changes to some of the frames would be these (WARNING WALL OF TEXT INCOMING):

 

Excalibur:

   Slash Dash: Enemies hit by it but aren't killed are pushed down in a similar manner to Banshee's first ability. Also increases the melee counter per enemy hit.

   Radial Blind: Remove LoS, have duration be based on how far they where from Excalibur when he casts it. The closer they are, the longer they're blinded. 

   Super Jump: Pushes enemies away at both take off and landing, and upon landing you stay invisible for another 3/4/5/6 seconds

   Radial Javelin: Let duration mods increase the stun duration (I don't believe they do that atm).

 

MAG:

   Crush: Return the ragdoll effect, have damage and ragdoll duration be affected by how close they are to MAG. The closer they are, the more damage they take and a longer ragoll duration.

               Example: When an enemy is near MAG when she uses Crush, they take 2-2.5k Magnetic Damage and are ragdolled for 3-5 seconds. When an enemy is far from MAG, they take 1-1.5k Magnetic and ragdolled for 1-3 seconds.

 

Mirage:

   Hall of Mirrors: Images gain 50% of Eclipses bonuse damage

   Eclipse: Have each benefit be applied in a lowered form when not in the correct lightning

                 Example: When in the light, gain 200% damage and 15% damage resistance

                                 When in the dark, gain 75% damage resistance and 75% damage increase

                

Saryn: 

   Venom: Let Miasma pop the spores

   I got nothing else I don't play a lot of Saryn so I can't say much

 

 

Again, these are just some ideas, and probably not the best, but I think some of these changes would be nice.

Edited December 15, 2014 by NyxCrab

[Mr.Lube]

This is my favourtie post on this forum.

[Archwizard]

I edited the OP to include a rant on the topic of augments. Might include one on the topic of passives, in light of the last devstream.

 

-snip-

 

I feel that pushing enemies around should be an effect of Rhino Charge instead of Slash Dash (if it isn't already...).

 

Don't the mirror images already scale their damage relative to Mirage?

Edited December 16, 2014 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

Don't the mirror images already scale their damage relative to Mirage?

they do, yes. and it's normally a pretty low Percentage (except for Hall of Malevolence i guess...) to keep Hall of Mirrors from being really stupid.

20% of Mirages' Damage for the Clones normally.

 

it gets pretty high with Power Strength as it is, Eclipse certainly doesn't need to do more Damage.

[XToxinator]

Like your ideas for all frames but I hope u don't mind me telling my rework idea for some frames

Ash:

shuriken:

-Can cast 3-6 shurikens

- Shurikens are can bounce like the galive depends on where u shoot it

Smokescreen:

-Its fine nothing to say about it

Teleport:

- Now able to teleport anyway u want ( Can be teleported to floors, walls, Objects)

- If hold 3 casted there will be a energy drop, U will use ur mouse and the scroll and keyboards too move ur drop around to ur location.

Bladestorm:

-Fine as it is but I think we need a toggle ability if u want to stop and revive a fallen player for example.

Excalibur:

Slash dash:

- After used it slashes enmies in its way excalibur will slash a slash energy infront of him and its limit range is at least 10m

- If the player doesn't have a melee weapon along with him and uses slash dash, it will grow out a energy sword something like valkyr hysteria and slashes enimies in its way

Radial blind:

- fine as it is but same as growing energy sword

(New Idea)

Super Charge:

- Excaliburs acrobatics, Speed,abilities Damage, melee damage, and stats will be increse by 50% and duration is 30seconds will be increase

Radial javelin:

-Now it will throw out its type of melee weapon, like example the player got an axe so he will throw out 100 axes

- its like the glaive it can bounce 3-5 times to kill enimies.

Frost:

Freeze:

- Has aoe damage just like the ogris and leaves a trail of ice that will reduce sheilds, armor and potential speed something like the oriken void ice path

- able to make a ice path anywhere frost likes.

- Now won't kill enimies it will 75%-100% reduce its stats like I said and will deal a half health damage affecting its health slowly.

Ice wave:

- Now can cast 2-4 waves depends on their ranks.

- Will stay there for some seconds making it like a barricade or a fence to block enemies fire or attacks like chargers charging to u

- has knockbacks and whoever is at the ice wave will be knockback and dealt impact damage also slash damage

Snowglobe:

- Timer removed and can only have 4 globes

-shows its small bar of shields and health bar something like the pod

- Now has shields

- health increse max to 10 000

- Range limit should cover the space of the whole pod for tier defense key

- Now the globe can follow u around and to place it hold 3

- If hits 0 then enemies inside and outside will dealt ice damage and will be freezed too

Avalanche:

- Has 6s freezing enimies and max range is 20m to 25m

- After cast and enimies surivive the globe they will be dealt bonus damage and will be stunned

Loki:

Decoy:

- Now spamable until 3 decoys

- Now decoy is like tenno specters they will follow the host where ever he goes to. The decoy will help to revive the player or stay to revive others and claim a tower ( interception)

- Timer is removed

- U can interact with ur created decoy and asking them what to do press X then there will be options for u to command the decoy to do

Invisibility: fine as it is

Switch teleport: now u can switch teleport with objects and making enimies accidentally hit each other and they will be given 10s confusion and stun.

Radial disarm:

-All Infested and bosses will be given damage

So thats it for some of my warframe ideas I hope it isn't too op

[Kidkilla]

Been using Ash for a week now, and I feel he's fine just as he is

[low1991]

suggestion of 2 conflicting idea can never be implemented.

enuff said.

[aw3ren3ss]

Ok, I just want some feedback on this concept:

 

aw3ren3ss, on 26 Nov 2014 - 7:56 PM, said:

So, some people are complaining about the tornadoes going to far away from cast point, throwing enemies away, doesn't synergize well with other abilities/frames and even being useless

 

Here's a suggestion:

 

Make a cyclone around zephyr:

 

Zephyr rises above the ground about 5-8m and summons a cyclone around her (making her centered in the eye of the storm). The eye of the storm is about 5m wide and inside there's no wind, but outside of the eye there's a 10-20m wide storm that sucks in nearby enemies and forces them into a circular path around zephyr. The storm will damage enemies caught within it and also deal extra damage to them if they hit a wall during their flight, the storm may also absorb redirected projectiles from Turbulence to protect Zephyr and her allies within the eye and potentially add more damage to the storm itself. Zephyr will be able to end her flying state by using Dive Bomb or Tail Wind, but the cyclone will still be present untill the duration is over (or the ability is channeled and makes her trapped in the sky untill she runs out of energy/toggle the ability or dies (in this case she could use Turbulence to avoid any damage dealt by enemies that were within the eye when she casted the ability))

[Archwizard]

 

-snip-

 

Unfortunately, I feel they're almost all too much. You took each ability and multiplied its effects to an overpoweringly high degree, but focused on abilities without issues (like Decoy) or ignored the real issues some of these skills have (like most of your Frost rework).

 

suggestion of 2 conflicting idea can never be implemented.

enuff said.

 

Could you be more specific? I'm not sure what conflicting ideas you mean.

 

Ok, I just want some feedback on this concept:

 

Ah, I see you went back to Volkovyi's original Tornado design with it.

 

I'd be all for it, if the current implementation of Zephyr didn't make everything about Tornado (from the flight to the bullet redirection) totally redundant. 

On top of that, I'm fairly certain it would make the ability incredibly OP. The only skills that orbit a moving Warframe for a duration deal damage to one target at a time; the only toggled skills that protect the Warframe (ie ragdolling enemies in an orbit around the user) also make the user immobile. There's no tradeoff.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Archwizard

[ImNotJellyAtAll]

proposal: devs never allowed to use the word "balance" ever again

[low1991]

Could you be more specific? I'm not sure what conflicting ideas you mean.

For example, I would suggest an idea to reduce & balance certain frames to a more suitable level, rather than some other suggestion which is made by OP or other forum users to buff the said ability to liking.

 

Another example, i prefer there be No Tax on DS but a credit/resource boost. some other users will insist on having credit & resource tax.

 

This is conflicting ideas, you cant have DE going Left & Right at the same time.

[Archwizard]

For example, I would suggest an idea to reduce & balance certain frames to a more suitable level, rather than some other suggestion which is made by OP or other forum users to buff the said ability to liking.

 

They're conflicting solutions supporting the same idea - that frames should be on a certain level of one another. (Of course, the fact that enemy design has already taken a course of serial escalation further increases the call for universal buffs over universal nerfs.)

 

You see it as them getting mixed messages - buff Saryn versus nerf Rhino - but I see it as them receiving notices toward one issue.

[STORRM]

Saryn

Suggested changes:

- Venom spores are more responsive to area-effect attacks, each melee attack will also pop at least one spore, and any unpopped spores on a slain enemy will automatically detonate (without spreading the effect) against nearby foes.

- Venom Dose applies its effects to all allies in a radius around a friendly target, or to anyone within range of a spore spread.

- Molt transfers all buffs, debuffs and statuses from the casting Saryn to the decoy upon summoning and briefly makes her immune to reapplication. When the Molt fades or is destroyed, explosion damage is increased by total damage it received.

- Contagion replaced with “Allure”: Grants damage mitigation to the caster, with a small Gas damage aura surrounding Saryn capable of popping Venom spores.

- Miasma has a 100% status chance per tick. Power Duration adds additional ticks with stagger; reducing Power Duration no longer increases damage dealt.

 

interesting i was thinking contagion could just have 100% virile proc instead of dmg so its half's the HP of almost any thing you melee

and then have her ult "FIXED" to do more dmg with duration, power STR should add dmg to each tick and duration should add more ticks, coz atm doing 12k dmg in 0.7 seconds seems broken and make her other powers really short/unusable. also first powers like venom should have a cone of fire to make them easier to hit/aoe

[taiiat]

-snip-

Contagion dealing 100% Viral would still be a literally useless Ability.

 

it needs to go. new Ability from the ground up. or tons of new features. as it stands Contagion does nothing useful. it just wastes Energy.

 

 

not having Miasma gain extra Damage with -Duration might have been fixed. there's really goofy math on the Ability so it still can sometimes deal stupid amounts of Damage, but usually deals far, far less.

Miasma can also get Headshots for some reason. unnecessary.

also an Ability that lacks any purpose. has a scripted length stun, one that is much inferior to CC Effects most Abilities have, and other than that just does Damage. just Damage isn't useful.

not to mention it's bland as is, a generic AoE Blast.

Edited December 18, 2014 by taiiat

[MechaKnight]

Contagion dealing 100% Viral would still be a literally useless Ability.

 

it needs to go. new Ability from the ground up. or tons of new features. as it stands Contagion does nothing useful. it just wastes Energy.

Contagion as it stands now is useless, but let's talk about why.

 

I will compare with Speed, War Cry, Silence, and stealth bonuses from Invisibility/Smoke Screen.

 

For Speed and War Cry, their melee damage boost is multiplicative instead of additive, due to the fact that swinging your weapon that much faster will multiply the damage and status chance per second that is already on your melee weapon. This can be tested by going to a builder with any weapon and adding more attack speed to it.

 

For stealth bonuses, their damage is also multiplicative. Hitting an enemy which is not alerted to you or temporarily stunned will multiply all of the damage on your weapon for that hit. This applies to being invisible or stunning the enemy. Silence momentarily stuns enemies upon entry so it also gains said bonus.

 

Why is Contagion so bad? It's an additive bonus, and a lackluster one at that. At base, it deals less damage than the usual toxin melee mod Fever Strike. If the player uses the maximum amount of power strength they can afford, it's around as much as 2 of said Fever Strike mods. This is inferior to the other melee augmenting options, since instead of giving a worth of only 1 or 2 slots of damage, they essentially multiply all of the damage and status the weapon is capable of dealing.

 

Now that I've talked about the damage aspects, what of the support? Contagion is outclassed by Saryn's own Venom augment, Speed, War Cry, Invisibility/Smoke Screen. Venom Dose gives a similar duration based toxin effect, but on all weapons for any teammate you cast it on. Such a pity that an augment for your teammates does a better job with its implementation than an ability you use for yourself, and a similar augment is present on Ember, Frost, Oberon, and Volt. For Speed, Volt increases everyone's movement speed and melee attack speed. For War Cry, Valkyr also increases the melee attack speed of teammates, increases their armor, and slows down surrounding enemies. Invisibility/Smoke Screen makes the caster non-visible to enemies, which is arguably the best kind of defense. Additionally, the Smoke Shadow augment for Ash allows him to protect teammates. For Banshee, one can say said support is limited in most cases due to the broken stealth system in this game, but once enemies are affected by the ability, they are no longer alerted by sounds.

 

Note on Banshee/Silence comparisons

While Silence is currently a bit better than Contagion in purpose and use, I do not say this ability is ideal given the purpose it is supposed to perform. It should be silencing all weapons fired within its sphere of influence by all players within it, but even this is simply not enough to justify the fact that as of currently, stealth is generally not viable unless you're invisible, and it is also not rewarding enough. That said, I do believe Banshee's Silence can be improved, and/or the stealth system be overhauled to make her more appealing.

 

With the above mentioned, it is clear and obvious Contagion needs a massive overhaul akin to a full replacement. The way it works for the purpose it should be suited for, it simply isn't good enough or fun enough.

Edited December 18, 2014 by MechaKnight

[MechaKnight]

not having Miasma gain extra Damage with -Duration might have been fixed. there's really goofy math on the Ability so it still can sometimes deal stupid amounts of Damage, but usually deals far, far less.

Miasma can also get Headshots for some reason. unnecessary.

also an Ability that lacks any purpose. has a scripted length stun, one that is much inferior to CC Effects most Abilities have, and other than that just does Damage. just Damage isn't useful.

not to mention it's bland as is, a generic AoE Blast.

That, and negative duration will no longer be the meta given the new legendary mods. If my predicted pattern is correct, they'll generally be about 82% better than the standard option for being a rank 10 legendary mod that I assume will be the "end game" of mods. Corrupted mods will still have their place in the game for allowing one to stack a large bonus not possible in any other mod for the cost of attribute loss, and they will also be able of being stacked as usual. However, if Saryn's Miasma is not fixed to work as intended, she will be left behind as all warframes are systematically buffed by the new resources available. I for one am glad that this balanced option is becoming available to us as they are currently being implemented.

 

Edit: Accidental double post.

Edited December 18, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Erevion]

Dude , you are god :D

 

Now i agree with this post perfectly because all frames need balance.....they need to be buffed a lil bit and few frames need to be debuffed like rhono -.-

 

Now not everyone wants Rhino but we are all pushed to the wall to MUST HAVE rhino as first frame - or we must have rhino frame -.-

I dont like in this game to have must have frames and yet people ask for specific frames ... like there are usefull and useless frames....

 

So again this post is best rework suggestion ive seen......

All frames need to be reworked or buffed at least if not reworked that so when i click in recruiting chat i dont see lf rhino,lf nova,lf frost,lf trinity -.- thats the most frustrating thing in the game ... why i cant play with the frame i want?( with team not solo .... cause the teamwork is the most fun )