Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[taiiat]

Now for Decoy.

 

Like I said, I only really use it on Mobile Defense tiles, when I can put it under some stairs, or glitch it inside a prop. It shouldn't really have to be hidden to be effective - it's name is Decoy, and its purpose is to be a loud, obnoxious diversion while I dump a Radial Disarm in the Grineer's trousers. The reason why it isn't obnoxious (it's certainly bloody loud) is that it's weak. I could kill it with a paper cut, if only I was Radiation procced.

i fail to see a problem with either Decoy Ability.

 

they're extremely potent CC for their cost, distracting 99% of Enemies' attention time. effectively turning off all the Enemies.

and all you need to do is place it where it can avoid getting hit but still attract attention.

 

if Decoy Abilities became the godmode Brick Wall that some want them to be...... their effectiveness would need to be nerfed to make the Ability stay balanced.

 

with either Decoy Ability, mine normally last the majority or all of their Duration, easily lasting 20 seconds in any Mission.

strategic placement is the cornerstone of the Decoy Abilities. it's the entire learning curve of them. you find good spots, and use them to wrench the Enemies. 

 

 

 

as for Switch Teleport, i certainly find good use for it. but i would definitely go for a Switch Teleported Enemy being able to be shot at by his friends for a bit.

[RicePixie]

i fail to see a problem with either Decoy Ability.

 

they're extremely potent CC for their cost, distracting 99% of Enemies' attention time. effectively turning off all the Enemies.

and all you need to do is place it where it can avoid getting hit but still attract attention.

 

if Decoy Abilities became the godmode Brick Wall that some want them to be...... their effectiveness would need to be nerfed to make the Ability stay balanced.

 

with either Decoy Ability, mine normally last the majority or all of their Duration, easily lasting 20 seconds in any Mission.

strategic placement is the cornerstone of the Decoy Abilities. it's the entire learning curve of them. you find good spots, and use them to wrench the Enemies. 

 

 

 

as for Switch Teleport, i certainly find good use for it. but i would definitely go for a Switch Teleported Enemy being able to be shot at by his friends for a bit.

 

I'm certainly not all for making Decoy a brick wall.

 

The problem I find with it is that most of the "good spots" involve clipping Decoy into the terrain - it just feels a little... exploity? That said, some spots look like they were designed to have Decoys jammed into their tiny little hidey-holes, like the stairs up to the terminals of Grineer Asteroid MD, or jammed between some crates on the frozen dam defense map.

 

When I say "a brief period where it converts damage taken to health", I really do mean brief - like, one second max. If Decoy were to take constant DPS, he'd lose that extra health over the course of the next second, so you'd have just over two seconds (still assuming constant DPS) of aggro diversion.

 

That's enough time to cast Radial Disarm, or to recast Invisibility, or (maybe) pop a nullifier bubble. For maximum efficiency, and for defense/MD missions, obviously the hidey-holes are going to be a little more important - spamming two-second Decoys over the course of a three-minute MD is going to be pretty expensive.

 

What I was trying to do by suggesting the brief invuln period is to give Loki a band-aid. Does it still feel like it's made of bricks (and walls!)? Maybe.

 

Brick Band-aid confirmed to be next gear item... Brick-aid? Brigade?

 

What am I doing with my life?

 

I digress. Now that I'm (hopefully) a bit more clear on durations etc., what do you think?

[taiiat]

I digress. Now that I'm (hopefully) a bit more clear on durations etc., what do you think?

i place a Decoy out in the open fully expecting it to not last long. because it's a Glass Cannon standing out in the open.

 

so i place it there fully knowing to replace it in a tactically superior position a few seconds later.

 

 

with that being the case, i don't really see a problem with how they work currently. if i place it well, it's placed well. if i place it badly, well, i've placed it badly.

(though my mild q.q that Decoy has a bit more Aggro than Molt, but since it has a gun, i'm not surprised).

[RicePixie]

I guess that makes sense - I'm be no means an exceptionally experienced Loki player, so if you think that Decoy's out-in-the-open distraction lasts long enough as it is, I'll trust you on that.

[Archwizard]

So now that limbo's cataclysm is manually detonatable ,which improves his offensive skills as well as allows him to troll teams less intentionally now, should that be added to the victories part of the OP?

 

Nah, the victories section is more for things that this thread directly influenced; the Cataclysm change was a highly popular suggestion before it got to this thread.

 

Personally, I'd also like to see something done about Rift Surge. It really does need something else to warrant being its own ability, rather than just a passive for Limbo or an effect of Rift Walk. (Honestly really tempted to merge it with Rift Walk and replace it with a hat-flinging attack, or a teleport.)

 

I like this.

 

I like a lot of this.

 

My two most played (well, can't confirm on most played, but these are certainly the ones I really care about) frames are Nekros and Loki, so I'll start with them.

 

NEKROS

I actually like Desecrate (I may or may not be alone on this), now that it can be used with Equilibrium + Despoil. In terms of gameplay, I am very rarely out of energy or health, and thematically it ties into the idea of death, "blood magic" and necromancy - health goes out, health cycles back in. It's still kind of rude how much I have to spam 3, but it feels right with his kit now at least.

 

That said, for some very odd reason the idea of Nekros and Viral damage (with Siphon Life) never really clicked with me, and then I read that part of your post and I was like, "oh [rude word], that makes sense". The polar opposites of Nekros and Oberon is something that I've always really wanted to see, so I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this.

 

Still, I'm not quite sure that everything about Siphon Life would quite fit, but I'll come back to that in a second. I want to talk about SotD (I love your ideas about Terrify and Soul Rip, not much more to say on that really).

 

Personally, I think the "Soul Cache" is flawed and encourages exploitation (by causing Nekros only targeting stronger enemies and discouraging him from killing weaker ones), but I think that, with the dismemberment of corpses, it may be too difficult (from a programming perspective - but I'm not an expert) or too open to exploitation (the same way Desecrate effects separated body parts) if SotD worked off corpses. The two solutions to these problems that I can think of is that:

 

a) the "Soul Cache" is built up from targets killed through Soul Rip. This would encourage Nekros to cast it on higher value targets first, and not "punish" him for not being the one to land the killing blow. It would also remove that "penalty" for killing other enemies. By the same token, of course, it would still discourage him from casting it on weaker enemies.

 

b) the "Soul Cache" is built up from targets killed by the whole team. This would remove any and all bias on who Nekros does/doesn't kill or cast abilities on.

 

Of course, I might be wrong, and casting SotD on corpses may work fine.

 

Right then, back to Desecrate/Siphon Life (and this is the real motive behind me not wanting SotD to be cast on corpses), Nekros' abilities go from harming the living (Soul Rip) to weakening the living (Terrify) to exploiting the living (Siphon Life) to raising the dead (SotD). This jump from Terrify to SotD escalates quite quickly, so I'm proposing a slight change to Siphon Life, so that it's about exploiting the weak and the dead. While this idea might be entirely crap, it might also be, at the very least, interesting.

 

Siphon Life would return to being a radial AOE and would drain life for the radial heal only from corpses and terrified foes. Thematically, this ties both into his exploitation of the weak (rather than just making them weak) and the original theme of death, desecrating corpses, necromancy and all that jazz. As far as his kit is concerned, it would encourage building power strength (more enemies cowering = more enemies that are guaranteed to be in range), which in turn would increase the number of SotD minions and the armour/shields reduction on Soul Rip.

 

That might be absolute bonkers, but I do feel that a high chance viral proc on any enemies in range is a little bit too stronk - limiting it to terrified enemies is a bit of balancing. Also, my suggested change back to radial AOE might just be homage to the original Desecrate. I don't know anymore. What even is life?

 

TLDR: Soul Rip is good. Terrify (your suggestion, not the current version) is good. Suggested change to Soul Siphon is well and truly open to criticism. Possibility of SotD not working too well with corpses.

 

LOKI

Hopefully this one should be shorter.

 

When I play Loki (and I'm not saying this from the perspective of a professional MLG Loki player, but from someone who enjoys Loki and has a decent-ish understanding of the Loki meta), I use Radial Disarm and Invisibility a lot, and Decoy gets some use on Mobile Defense tiles.

 

I have only ever used Switch Teleport for trolling. While I've heard that "oh, you can use it to get to get a downed ally out of danger" or "you can use it with Decoy to traverse the map at super-duper-speed", I've always found it more convenient to go Invisible to revive, or to copter. Making the Switch Teleport target vulnerable to friendly fire might fix that. As for suggested changes for Radial Disarm, they just make sense. Come on now, they shouldn't need to be mentioned - they should already be in the game.

 

Now for Decoy.

 

Like I said, I only really use it on Mobile Defense tiles, when I can put it under some stairs, or glitch it inside a prop. It shouldn't really have to be hidden to be effective - it's name is Decoy, and its purpose is to be a loud, obnoxious diversion while I dump a Radial Disarm in the Grineer's trousers. The reason why it isn't obnoxious (it's certainly bloody loud) is that it's weak. I could kill it with a paper cut, if only I was Radiation procced.

 

The only solution I can think of is something similar to Snowglobe's current functionality - a brief period where it converts damage taken to health.

 

TLDR: Switch Teleport and Radial Disarm tweaks make sense - Decoy needs to be able to stare death (or the Grineer) in the face while firing its Lex Prime/Lato dumbly into thin air.

 

I haven't really played any other frames enough to have any suggestions/pass any serious judgement on your suggestions, so I'll be pretty brief in the next section.

 

*All* the Frames! (the other ones)

 

Ash - Yep. Cool. Makes sense.

 

Banshee - Sonic Boom's buff would be nice, Sonar makes sense, Silence buff is so damned logical that not even a blind tortoise shell would know it should already be in the game.

 

Ember - Lots of things that should definitely happen - I really don't see how any of this (or anything else) could possibly make Ember worse anyway.

 

Excalibur - Yep yep yep yep, that passive suggestion + Radial Javelin combo multiplier would be the most amazing thing to push him towards swordplay.

 

Frost - Heavier focus on CC is exactly what he needs, if only DE could see it. Ice Wave knockback would be awesome/make the skill really damn satisfying (what with those visual effects? Now I just want a surfer Warframe to ride it...)

 

Hydroid - I'm kind of concerned that a recastable Tempest Barrage would encourage hectic spam - maybe change so pressing the button a second time would cancel it so it can be recast elsewhere? Aside from that, Tidal Surge (like Ice Wave) calls for a surfer frame - or maybe that's where Archfin comes in? Also, I totally called it. Surfer frame. Tell your friends.

 

Limbo - I haven't even played this guy once. I may or may not get back to you on this one.

 

 

Mag - I'm personally fine with Pull as it currently is, even with the LOS check - although, if we're talking magnetics, it shouldn't NEED the LOS check. Crush changes would be great if you're getting clusterf---ed. Bullet Attractor is pretty weak right now, but it's kind of designed to making shotguns better (I think), but I'll reserve judgement for after a shotgun buff.

 

Mesa - See Limbo.

 

Nova - See Limbo/Mesa. It's a crime, right?

 

Nyx - I'm not sure if this is enough to make Psychic Bolts actually useful, but I can't think of a better suggestion, so... meh?

 

Oberon - Yep. This is good.

 

Rhino - Yep. So glad there's a suggested Vanguard nerf - I'm bloody tired of these Rhinos acting like they're... dolphins? What's a better-suited large yet agile animal. Also dolphin sentinel confirmed, same update as surfer frame. Or maybe Dolphin-Bat-Dogs? Sea Kubrows could be fun.

 

Saryn - See Limbo/Mesa/Nova. I swear this is the last one.

 

Trinity - I love the suggestions for Well of Life + augment, but I'm a bit iffy on Blessing. Like Hydroid's Tempest Barrage, this one could be prone to spam-casting (albeit super-spam), particularly on a frame with the ability to regain energy practically for free. Maybe take another look at this?

 

Valkyr - Love all this, particularly Hysteria change.

 

Vauban - This'll mess up the Bounce trolls. Also some CC from Tesla would be very welcome.

 

Volt - Shock Trooper buff makes all the sense in the world, Speed/Electric Shield distortion isn't something I've ever had a huge problem with (not speaking for everybody here though, so I'll take your word on the necessity of this change), Riot Shield augment would be bloody awesome.

 

Zephyr - All for the Dive Bomb -> Tempest rework, Turbulence mechanics change with reflection chance is nice, using Cyclone to spread physical damage around is a cool idea.

 

This is all just my two cents. Maybe it's a load of BS, maybe not. And if I wasn't quite clear on something (it's 3:00 am where I am - I'm surprised that this is even slightly coherent), just ask and I'll try and clarify on what, exactly, I mean.

 

Don't forget to keep an eye out for the surfer frame and Kuphin. Or maybe it's a Dolphbrow? Whatever it's called, you heard it here first.

 

To take your Nekros points one at a time...

 

- The fact that Desecrate needs an augment to make it feel right is part of the problem.

- There's been a long-standing suggestion to have Soul Punch be a way to build up the soul cache, but the problem is that you're increasing the effective energy cost of Shadows just to use it. Having it build from team kills could be doable.

- It's not so much of a jump if you think of Shadows as another way of exploiting the dead (and Siphon Life as a way of finishing off the living) - certainly little more of a jump than Desecrate. Again, effective energy costs prevent me from saying Terrify should be a limiter, and it doesn't feel very 'life drain-y' to drain corpses. That said, I suppose the Viral proc can be an augment, since the base effect already drains health (although I think people would have more appreciation if it popped orbs instead, considering the very build you're referring to); the cone was more of a limiter for that reason.

 

And since taiiat already addressed your Loki concerns...

 

- Admittedly, my idea for an Ice Wave augment would've been to leave an ice slick on the floor that would increase slide speed over it while tripping up enemies. I guess sometimes the community's first thought is too stronk (sic).

- Recastable Tempest Barrage really isn't any worse than Elytron getting a recastable Thumper. It was a suggestion that Scott himself already made on a livestream, although he never really commented on how that worked out (could be it tested badly, could be he forgot with Archwing and other frames in the works). Regardless, Tempest Barrage definitely needs something to set it apart, since right now his ult just feels like a more damage-oriented version of the same effect.

- Pull was a great gathering tool before for AoE effects; the ragdoll fling just feels like an unnecessary gimmick.

- Think of casting Psychic Bolts on a Mind Controlled target for temporary healing.

- For Blessing, I made it clear that the immunity would only occur during the cast animation itself; that way low-health your allies won't die before you get a chance to cast it.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Archwizard

[DrBorris]

Personally, I'd also like to see something done about Rift Surge. It really does need something else to warrant being its own ability, rather than just a passive for Limbo or an effect of Rift Walk. (Honestly really tempted to merge it with Rift Walk and replace it with a hat-flinging attack, or a teleport.)

 

What about making Limbo's 3 be more team based. What if Rift Surge created a bubble that, while standing inside, you could damage both planes and gain the 200% weapon damage to all enemies when the player (enemies can be anywhere) is standing inside the bubble (allow it to have multiple instances). The description could be something like "Limbo collides both planes, increasing the power of physical attacks and allowing the damage of both planes from inside the singularity, but also opening you up to damage from both planes." So... Limbo could cast this, and cell mates could walk in and out at free will, opening up the ability for everyone to attack on both planes as they wish. In addition, it creates a more usable team damage boost ability. All that you have to do is stand inside and all damage, no matter where the enemy is, gains the 200% damage. 

[Archwizard]

What if Rift Surge created a bubble that, while standing inside, you could damage both planes and gain the 200% weapon damage to all enemies when the player (enemies can be anywhere) is standing inside the bubble (allow it to have multiple instances).

 

Honestly, I feel that defeats the point of Limbo and his 'layered reality' schtick.

 

Either:

1) While standing in the bubble, you can still only be damaged by enemies on one side the rift, but can damage both. In which case, now Limbo is horrendously OP and takes no skill whatsoever - reduce Power Range, drop a Cataclysm either on your group or at the door (whichever fits the power better and/or is more convenient), and hail down fire on your foes with a free 200% damage boost. Now the one drawback Limbo has becomes a strength, leaving you no reason not to be 95% invulnerable at all times, and no reason to bring foes into the rift.

2) While standing in the bubble, you can be damaged by enemies on both sides of the rift. In which case, scrap the other three abilities in Limbo's kit, since phasing enemies in or out is now pointless.

 

I will grant you can pull of the same thing by bringing a Volt with Electric Shield, but that at least promotes synergy and still isn't foolproof or an extreme boost.

[RicePixie]

 

To take your Nekros points one at a time...

 

- The fact that Desecrate needs an augment to make it feel right is part of the problem.

- There's been a long-standing suggestion to have Soul Punch be a way to build up the soul cache, but the problem is that you're increasing the effective energy cost of Shadows just to use it. Having it build from team kills could be doable.

- It's not so much of a jump if you think of Shadows as another way of exploiting the dead (and Siphon Life as a way of finishing off the living) - certainly little more of a jump than Desecrate. Again, effective energy costs prevent me from saying Terrify should be a limiter, and it doesn't feel very 'life drain-y' to drain corpses. That said, I suppose the Viral proc can be an augment, since the base effect already drains health (although I think people would have more appreciation if it popped orbs instead, considering the very build you're referring to); the cone was more of a limiter for that reason.

 

- Fair call. Even if they don't rework Desecrate into something like Siphon Life, there's a precedent (Paralysis) for skills (sans augments) that aren't entirely energy-dependent, so they could merge Despoil with Desecrate passively without too much backlash.

- Building the soul cache from team kills is the only way I can see to remove any bias in regards to Nekros' targets.

- Effective energy costs is something that I really should start considering when talking about balancing. It hadn't even occurred to me.

 

And since taiiat already addressed your Loki concerns...

 

- Admittedly, my idea for an Ice Wave augment would've been to leave an ice slick on the floor that would increase slide speed over it while tripping up enemies. I guess sometimes the community's first thought is too stronk (sic).

- Recastable Tempest Barrage really isn't any worse than Elytron getting a recastable Thumper. It was a suggestion that Scott himself already made on a livestream, although he never really commented on how that worked out (could be it tested badly, could be he forgot with Archwing and other frames in the works). Regardless, Tempest Barrage definitely needs something to set it apart, since right now his ult just feels like a more damage-oriented version of the same effect.

- Pull was a great gathering tool before for AoE effects; the ragdoll fling just feels like an unnecessary gimmick.

- Think of casting Psychic Bolts on a Mind Controlled target for temporary healing.

- For Blessing, I made it clear that the immunity would only occur during the cast animation itself; that way low-health your allies won't die before you get a chance to cast it.

 

- Surfing on ice. Surfer frame still needs to happen. On a more serious note, the current augment (void-style ice fields) lacks creativity. It's boring, we have access to ice fields in the void anyway (albeit we can't place them ourselves) and we can slow with standard cold status procs anyway. A low-friction area would be much more interesting.

- I guess I missed that livestream, and, as someone who hasn't used Elytron yet, I wasn't aware of Thumper's mechanics. Still, I don't know if just making it recastable would really set it apart from Tentacle Swarm. With Hydroid's new augments increasing his support focus, maybe Tidal Barrage could give a buff to allies in the radius?

- Removing the LOS check would be enough for me. Reverting from ragdoll back to a proper pull would be an added bonus.

- Have all the "yes" in the world.

- I'm still a little skeptical on Blessing. Even with the purpose of the invulnerability fully explained, I still think there would be people who would exploit that brief casting time. Maybe if it healed right at the start of the animation and applied damage reduction at the end?

 

Or maybe Trinity gets reworked into a surfer. Because #trinitynerfs

[Azamagon]

Ice Wave - Giving it push/knockback, just like that, might be good. But how about giving that pushback some freezing synergy? Like: Ice Wave can push back enemies, but only if they are frozen -OR- pushes them back FURTHER if they are frozen.

 

Ice Wave Impedance - This "skating" ablity, just make that an additional part of this current augment, perhaps?

 

Soul Punch - On top of having the "soul projection" which takes increased damage, what if the target was ANCHORED to the soul, making it unable to go beyond X meters away from the soul (inversely affected by Power Range)? That'd give it a nice Terrify-synergy.

 

Bullet Attractor - I'd like a further revamp:

* Shooting in/on the sphere immediately redirects the shot

* The shot has perfect punchthrough towards the target

* The explosion comes back, although, looks like a Magnetic shockwave instead (so it makes sense). This explosion's damage has a flat value, and is (lightly) increased by damage taken of the target

* Furthermore, this explosion occurs if the timer runs out, if the target dies OR if you cast the ability again. Yes, that makes it a target-remote-bomb. Which GREATLY increases its versatility (useful against any faction!)

 

Greedy Pull - How about adding this effect to it: Ranged units also have their magazines stolen, granting additional ammodrops (which is then pulled to Mag, due to the loot-pull-effect) and forcing them to reload when they get up.

 

I have more stuff (lots!), please check out this thread if you want :)

Edited January 20, 2015 by Azamagon

[Archwizard]

Ice Wave - Giving it push/knockback, just like that, might be good. But how about giving that pushback some freezing synergy? Like: Ice Wave can push back enemies, but only if they are frozen -OR- pushes them back FURTHER if they are frozen.

 

Ice Wave Impedance - This "skating" ablity, just make that an additional part of this current augment, perhaps?

 

Soul Punch - On top of having the "soul projection" which takes increased damage, what if the target was ANCHORED to the soul, making it unable to go beyond X meters away from the soul (inversely affected by Power Range)? That'd give it a nice Terrify-synergy.

 

Bullet Attractor - I'd like a further revamp:

* Shooting in/on the sphere immediately redirects the shot

* The shot has perfect punchthrough towards the target

* The explosion comes back, although, looks like a Magnetic shockwave instead (so it makes sense). This explosion's damage has a flat value, and is (lightly) increased by damage taken of the target

* Furthermore, this explosion occurs if the timer runs out, if the target dies OR if you cast the ability again. Yes, that makes it a target-remote-bomb. Which GREATLY increases its versatility (useful against any faction!)

 

Greedy Pull - How about adding this effect to it: Ranged units also have their magazines stolen, granting additional ammodrops (which is then pulled to Mag, due to the loot-pull-effect) and forcing them to reload when they get up.

 

Doesn't Freeze already last a bit longer if you use only Cold attacks or something? If not, I might add something like that.

 

Ice skating doesn't really work on a cloud of icy fog.

 

I don't think having that "anchoring" effect is necessary, since the soul itself is already stationary.

 

Added some of those changes to the OP... but as I've already said, the explosion is just a poor excuse for it to cost 75 energy.

 

Honestly, I'm tempted to just say Greedy Pull could use a total revamp, especially once all Sentinels and Kubrows get Vacuum.

[Azamagon]

1) Doesn't Freeze already last a bit longer if you use only Cold attacks or something? If not, I might add something like that.

 

2) Ice skating doesn't really work on a cloud of icy fog.

 

3) I don't think having that "anchoring" effect is necessary, since the soul itself is already stationary.

 

4) Added some of those changes to the OP... but as I've already said, the explosion is just a poor excuse for it to cost 75 energy.

 

5) Honestly, I'm tempted to just say Greedy Pull could use a total revamp, especially once all Sentinels and Kubrows get Vacuum.

1) Freeze? What are you talking about? I'm talking about Ice Wave here >_>

2) The graphics need an overhaul imo, so it looks more like a slick of ice

3) Soul stationary + the target being anchored to it is exactly the point. You severely weaken the target, and it can barely escape. Tie that with Terrify and the target will be feared in place while all other non-anchored enemies will run away, leaving that target VERY vulnerable.

4) With all that, it would at least have more general useage. Still, energy cost going down to 50 or even 35 would still probably be necessary, yes

5) Pull has a pretty long range, so it has a use. But since it had no direct COMBAT use, I thought my addition was kinda neat. If anything, at least very unique :P

[Archwizard]

So, since the big ask for "Give Fire Blast something to do!" was officially tackled today, I moved Ember down to the lower sections of the OP. (Yeah, I could've pulled it down earlier too, but that would just set us up for disappointment.)

 

I do find it somewhat amusing and ironic that the changes I proposed - for Fire Blast to have a 100% status chance and for the augment to give it an Eximus-style knockback - were reversed (I would almost say 'just to spite me', but I'm sure there was a coding limitation). The "wall of flames" isn't quite as impressive as the Eximus aura, but the practicality of the knockback heavily outweighs that (plus I didn't expect it to be full Eximus-level anyway, given that Frost can't pick up his globes either).

The downside, however, is directly related to the swap of base effect and augment. For people who are used to spamming the ring for damage and using the Heat procs to keep enemies rooted in it a few ticks, you now have to deal with the knockback constantly pushing foes out of the previous ring.

 

Not sure how to feel about the World on Fire nerf though - make no mistakes, the reduced cost-efficiency (for exactly the same effect) and a lockout of energy regeneration effects certainly qualifies as a nerf, and I know that far too many people take issue with still needing to build the ability for all four stats.

At the same time though... We've all been in that mission where all the action was just an Ember running through with World on Fire up. I'll grant that was really the only time she may have shined for some players, but given the rest of the update, I doubt she needs that particular crutch anymore.

 

Of course, this opinion is based entirely on a handful of missions I've run with her today. I'll have a clearer image of how well she's doing once I've taken her through the Derelict meatgrinder.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Archwizard

[Azamagon]

The downside, however, is directly related to the swap of base effect and augment. For people who are used to spamming the ring for damage and using the Heat procs to keep enemies rooted in it a few ticks, you now have to deal with the knockback constantly pushing foes out of the previous ring.

 

This is exactly what I thought too. The ability dissynergizes with itself (pushback = ring of fire will be useless) AND its augment (because it relies on the ring of fire).

 

Unless the enemies are melee though, then it can still synergize, in particular as a panic button to get really closeby enemies away from her, who then will have to run back to her, through the ring. But that's only really useful against ONE faction...

 

Honestly, if Fire Blast got turned into an ability that grants mobility + the eximus wave, scrapping the ring of fire ENTIRELY (move that feature over to Fireball, but even better, as a complete patch of fire, not just a mere ring), which would then also require some form of revamp of the augment, it would have been better, as it would've given her something DIFFERENT to her kit.

[taiiat]

the Ring of Fire in Fire Blast could be of Defensive use, rather than the current Offensive / Utility.

 

something that allows Ember to stand her ground or something. her Abilities are generally used for Close Range anyways.

so that Ability could clear an area and let her stand her ground.

[Aimop95]

I like her current fire blast as it is. It' procs quite often too in my experience. Push back and fire proc. That's space and 7 seconds to reposition yourself.

[Archwizard]

Scott's comments on Nekros on-stream:

 

Soul Punch will be a one-handed quick-cast like Fireball rather than a full-body cast.

Terrify will have a higher target cap, lower range and faster cast-speed.

(Question about Desecrate is getting dodged. ScrapItScrapItScrapItScrapIt....)

Shadows will get a health/damage buff based on mods.

 

Promising, but not enough. Terrify needs to be recastable, Shadows needs an AI buff (and perhaps intangibility) and Soul Punch needs some AoE.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Archwizard

[Azamagon]

Scott's comments on Nekros on-stream:

 

Soul Punch will be a one-handed quick-cast like Fireball rather than a full-body cast.

Terrify will have a higher target cap, lower range and faster cast-speed.

(Question about Desecrate is getting dodged. ScrapItScrapItScrapItScrapIt....)

Shadows will get a health/damage buff based on mods.

I.e.

"I'm lazy and don't really care to think before doing my job properly." >_> Those are almost purely about changing numbers (except Soul Punch being one-handed), but the problem is more so in their mechanics... So much for the so-called "year of quality", huh? T_T

[Noble_Cactus]

Scott's comments on Nekros on-stream:

 

Soul Punch will be a one-handed quick-cast like Fireball rather than a full-body cast.

Terrify will have a higher target cap, lower range and faster cast-speed.

(Question about Desecrate is getting dodged. ScrapItScrapItScrapItScrapIt....)

Shadows will get a health/damage buff based on mods.

 

Promising, but not enough. Terrify needs to be recastable, Shadows needs an AI buff (and perhaps intangibility) and Soul Punch needs some AoE.

 

I just wanted to return and say that wow, DE really likes to lowball it now since they're too afraid to change anything without backlash from its playerbase. These changes are super disappointing. But sadly enough they're entirely expected.

 

Alright, back to whatever I was doing.

[Archwizard]

I just wanted to return and say that wow, DE really likes to lowball it now since they're too afraid to change anything without backlash from its playerbase. These changes are super disappointing. But sadly enough they're entirely expected.

 

There's an interesting thing though -

 

You have a ton of Warframes who build for Power Range or Power Duration (or reduce them), but once you get to higher level content it's only a handful that bother with Power Strength in any meaningful capacity beyond flat damage. 

Nekros' skills have the potential to make him THE Power Strength frame, between Power Strength-based CC and armor debuffing and minions who will soon double-dip in it, all of which scale meaningfully, but it won't matter because they won't take a stance on Desecrate.

 

In the near future, at best I see Desecrate becoming an aura skill that follows Nekros - which could greatly improve his gameplay but still won't cleanly mesh with the rest of his toolkit, and still leaves you building for one skill out of four (except maybe Terrify, but again, Power Strength).

Edited January 23, 2015 by Archwizard

[CapedBaldy]

Nekros has restrictions on killing targets if he wants to make his Shadows any good.

 

That alone signifies that an overhaul of mechanics is definitely needed for Shadows of the Dead.

[Archwizard]

From an ongoing discussion in another thread -

 

Ten problems that today's Devstream didn't address about Nekros:

 

1.      The “soul cache” mechanic on Shadows of the Dead forces Nekros players to restrict their killing blows to certain targets in order to make their Shadows worthwhile.

--> Solution: Draw from either fresh corpses or party kills.

2.      Shadows need an AI overhaul. They aren’t “dumb” so much as too smart for competence, seeking cover when they should be aggressive and patrolling areas their summoner has already left.

--> Solution: Really just the AI overhaul.

3.      Shadows of the Dead, as a body-blocking tool, is a two way street; Nekros and his allies cannot see or shoot through Shadows, which just means they create clutter on the battlefield.

--> Solution: Make Shadows intangible to Tenno, a la Mirage's Hall of Mirrors.

4.      Despite being his “Oh S#&$” button, Nekros is locked out of casting Terrify an additional time while active, leaving him defenseless if another wave of enemies approaches.

--> Solution: Add the ability to toggle Terrify off.

5.      Of the many ways to decrease enemy armor, only one cannot approach 100% on its own within current Power Strength constrictions or be stacked to that point: Terrify.

6.      Enemies under the effects of Terrify sprint at full-speed toward the nearest exit, making it harder to take advantage of the armor debuff or clean the slate for a second cast.

--> Solution: Remove the armor debuff from Terrify and move a stackable version to Soul Punch per the original plan.

7.      Soul Punch has virtually nonexistent area-effect compared to an ability like Smite or Pull, and does not provide sufficient benefits to justify being single-target like Banish. It's just a knockdown at high level, which each of those have and more.

--> Solution: In addition to the armor debuff, add some splash damage on impact.

8.      Desecrate’s reliance on RNG forces it to be spammed for maximum effectiveness; this spam locks Nekros players out of using his other abilities or attacks, and makes it difficult to build the “soul cache”.

9.      Desecrate does not synergize with the rest of Nekros’ kit; despite Shadows making him the one frame who can justify having teamplay support even in solo mode, they can’t benefit from the loot his “support” provides (nor approach it if they could).

 

Finally, and most importantly,

 

10.    Desecrate’s metagame benefits make the loot it provides more important than any other skill in Nekros’ arsenal. Any changes to his other skills won't matter so long as he has to spam this skill, or build exclusively Power Range for the benefit of this skill alone.

--> Solution: Remove Desecrate.

[Darkmoone1]

On a unrelated note: I'm completely happy with how Oberon is. Unless this new upcoming frame blows my mind, I'll probably continue to play as Oberon and some of the other frames like Ash or Loki.

[Archwizard]

I added the above list as a TL;DR to Nekros' section of the OP (I doubt it will be read as such).

 

I also added a revised Ember section to the OP, in light of her changes since 15.11; if you have anything more to add, feel free to mention it.

 

On a unrelated note: I'm completely happy with how Oberon is. Unless this new upcoming frame blows my mind, I'll probably continue to play as Oberon and some of the other frames like Ash or Loki.

 

Which is why his section is scarce for the most part. (Didn't used to be though.)

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Soul Punch is a candidate for the most useless ability in the entire game. Low damage and single target, it serves only as an extremely limited and situational knockdown, if that.

 

Soul Punch:

The "soul projectile" effect is now an AoE cone behind the target instead of a single projectile, ragdolling any enemy in the cone.

Enemies that have been Soul Punched will be added to your Shadows of the Dead kill pool, even if they have not been killed.

 

These changes would actually give Soul Punch a reason to exist, and make it an effective tool that synergizes well with Nekros's other abilities. They would give Soul Punch potential as both an AoE crowd control and a way to be able to selectively choose powerful enemies to resurrect with Shadows of the Dead. It would actually make Soul Punch an effective means of CC, as well as give more control over which enemies to resurrect.

[nekrojiji]

I hate every single thing you suggested for Mesa.

 

I like it's 1st very much .. the record damage I dealt with it was 250k (on lvl 30) on the first target.... so please don't touch her 1st.

 

 Please learn how to play Mesa and than come up with suggestions.