Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[taiiat]

*shrugs* depends on how you get that >100% Damage Reduction.

has to be pretty metered, i'd think, so that it doesn't become more ridiculous than some of the Abilities we already have.

[Elydir]

So what do you think of the Saryn and Rhino buffs?

 

Venom can be put on Molt, Molt will buff Miasma damage, Contagion will pop Venom, Miasma will deal more damage to targets with Viral or Toxin procs. Passive increase to status duration.

 

Charge will get a combo system and scale with melee mods, Iron Skin will be like Snow Globe, Stomp will increase Charge damage. Passive Heavy Impact.

[tnccs215]

 

 

Charge will get a combo system and scale with melee mods

So beautifull. So dark souls.

Edited October 16, 2015 by tnccs215

[taiiat]

Venom can be cast on Molt

Passive increase to status duration.

i don't know about anyone else, but these are the two parts about Saryn i'm actually interested in.

 

(and not addressing the complete lack of purpose that Contagion has / single math exploit purpose Miasma has is a disappointment. Warframes with Abilities that do basically nothing is dumb, sorry - there is no excuse for all 4 Ability Slots to not be useful and flexible on a Warframe)

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

(and not addressing the complete lack of purpose that Contagion has / single math exploit purpose Miasma has is a disappointment. Warframes with Abilities that do basically nothing is dumb, sorry - there is no excuse for all 4 Ability Slots to not be useful and flexible on a Warframe)

Pretty sure they are fixing Miasma low duration exploit, because they said it's going to do damage each second, with Duration just affecting the duration of ability. So from now on long Duration would actually mean more hits per cast.

 

Contagion now has at least some purpose for popping venom pods, but that's not enough IMO, unless they also tweak the ability itself as well. If it gets more damage buff and 100% chance to proc Toxin (along with decent duration) it might have a great synergy with new Miasma as well.

Edited October 17, 2015 by (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame

[taiiat]

Pretty sure they are fixing Miasma low duration exploit, because they said it's going to do damage each second

 

Contagion now has at least some purpose for popping venom pods, but that's not enough IMO, unless they also tweak the ability itself as well. If it gets more damage buff and 100% chance to proc Toxin (along with decent duration) it might have a great synergy with new Miasma as well.

very well (took you long enough Scott :D no hard feelings though.) - i hadn't skimmed over what was talked about myself just yet, so i was just reading off of what was posted.

 

Synergy perhaps, but doesn't that just basically make it a temporary Damage Bonus for Miasma? that would mean one Ability effectively using two Ability Slots.

i mean, either go full on 'Toxic Warrior' with it, or make it do more than just a Melee Bonus to be useful in just about all situations. i'd prefer the latter really, Abilities with only one purpose aren't that interesting unless it's incredibly complex, like an entire game in an Ability.

[Azamagon]

(- snip - Warframes with Abilities that do basically nothing is dumb, sorry - there is no excuse for all 4 Ability Slots to not be useful and flexible on a Warframe)

Totally agreed!

Imo, I feel that one should be able to "build around" any one ability of a Warframe (within logical bounds of course), likewise that one should be able to build a "balanced" build with all 4 abilities in question. The latter we CAN do though, since Power Efficiency affects ALL abilities. That's why I've always promoted that all powers should be affected by all modifiers (Strength, Range, Duration, Efficiency) to various degrees, so that our builds and powers become very, very flexbile and fun! :)

 

Quick example - Take Loki. You build him mainly for Invisibility (with duration), or for Radial Disarm (with range), or for some mix of both. But you don't really DIRECTLY build around Decoy and DEFINITELY not for Switch Teleport. And Power Strength is just pretty much completely ignored on him. Imo, that's lost potential.

 

Because if all his abilities were affected by all power modifiers, with some powers benefitting more from certain modifiers (like Invis really thrives on Duration, Radial Disarm benefits the most from Range, Decoy and Switch could then enjoy Strength, for example), you could really decide more what you like to build around.

 

And I feel a whole bunch of powers are "just there" in the kit, Contagion being one of those powers. It REALLY needs something more DIRECTLY added to it so it is FUN to build around, not just indirectly useful by allowing easy popping of Venom spores That kind of synergy is cool and all, but I feel that shouldn't be the MAIN reason why you use a power.

[Archwizard]

Venom can be put on Molt, Molt will buff Miasma damage, Contagion will pop Venom, Miasma will deal more damage to targets with Viral or Toxin procs. Passive increase to status duration.

 

The hilarious irony of this is that the changes basically cover everything I intended for her to be capable of as written up in the OP - just without adding an extra ability to cleanly tie it all together:

 

- Venom spores are more responsive to area-effect attacks, each melee attack will also pop at least one spore, and any unpopped spores on a slain enemy will automatically detonate (without spreading the effect) against nearby foes.

- Molt transfers all buffs, debuffs and statuses from the casting Saryn to the decoy upon summoning and briefly makes her immune to reapplication. When the Molt fades or is destroyed, explosion damage is increased by total damage it received.

- Contagion replaced with “Allure”: Grants damage mitigation to the caster, with a small Gas damage aura surrounding Saryn capable of popping Venom spores.

- Miasma has a 100% status chance per tick. Power Duration adds additional ticks with stagger; reducing Power Duration no longer increases damage dealt.

 

- Venom spores will pop with each melee attack dealt to the target (when using Contagion) and is more responsive to area-effect damage (from Molt - it'll pop from any Toxin application).

- Molt will increase explosion damage (of Miasma) based on total damage it received.

- An effect can be placed on Molt that will detonate Venom spores of nearby enemies (namely, detonating onto them).

- Power Duration will add additional ticks to Miasma rather than reducing its damage dealt. (Presumably this may include an increased status chance as well.)

 

Especially noteworthy in the case of Molt - while Allure isn't involved, it remains very much a "break yourselves upon my body" skill in tandem with one of her other attacks. That's pretty damned specific.

 

Of course, I still hope that they'll give Contagion some more active effect than "increased Toxin damage that also happens to pop Venom spores". Half the problem with the effect is that it's so... forgettable.

 

And if Contagion is staying, and they're increasing the number of ways that Venom can spread, then I guess we're going back on the "swap their names" train.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Archwizard

[Elydir]

-snip-

 

Thoughts on the Rhino changes? Iron skin looks like its getting the buff it needs.

[Archwizard]

Thoughts on the Rhino changes? Iron skin looks like its getting the buff it needs.

 

Honestly? I feel the Iron Skin change is kind of... derivative. Uninspired. [size=2](How many other words are classy ways of saying "kinda lazy" or "almost afterthought-ish"?)[/size]

 

All we're seeing is a repetition of the same formula over, and over, and over again, essentially making the same skill in different sizes for multiple frames... especially since Rhino's changes are all about making him more like Atlas (Charge comboing anyone?). We complained enough that Slash Dash was getting cloned for every frame before it got reworked, but this is... some pinnacle of creativity?

 

I suppose that's just my irrational need to see everything be unique. The change will certainly be functional, if blandly so... but then again, Rhino is the analogical hammer (in some ways very literally), so uninteresting-but-practical should be expected.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Archwizard

[TEN-ERO-SIST]

Well this is a fantastic piece which really helped me out with the whole Nekros issue but there is one problem with Loki.Like Ash,PLEASE GIVE HIM FREE TELAPOTATION I AM BEGGING YOU WARFRAME!!!!!!!

[Archwizard]

one problem with Loki.

PLEASE GIVE HIM FREE TELAPOTATION I AM BEGGING YOU WARFRAME!!!!!!!

 

He already has free-aimed teleportation. Place a Decoy where you want to go, Switch Teleport with the Decoy.

[taiiat]

He already has free-aimed teleportation. Place a Decoy where you want to go, Switch Teleport with the Decoy.

while i agree in principle - to be fair however, i wouldn't disagree with making Switch Teleport(and maybe Decoy) cost less so it's about equal with Teleport in total Energy cost assuming you always use Decoy.

 

25E for Decoy and 5E for Switch Teleport would fill that close enough.

[Archwizard]

25E for Decoy and 5E for Switch Teleport would fill that close enough.

 

Keep in mind that it would be the same amount of energy for a trolling ally to switch with you.

 

At any rate, you're not considering the byproduct of Loki's version: the Decoy in itself, which remains in play regardless of how far or how many times you swap with it. Teleport would not provide such a benefit if you just aimed for a wall.

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

Greats ideas , i like it

[taiiat]

Keep in mind that it would be the same amount of energy for a trolling ally to switch with you.

 

At any rate, you're not considering the byproduct of Loki's version: the Decoy in itself, which remains in play regardless of how far or how many times you swap with it. Teleport would not provide such a benefit if you just aimed for a wall.

so? spending less Energy to troll you doesn't mean he can't do it in the first place.

just bite the bullet and for 99 more Missions nobody will troll you.

 

yes, Teleport needs a target just like Switch Teleport. i guess my point is that Switch Teleport is only mobility, yet costs the same as Teleport which is mobility + a Stun & a ton of Damage.

*shrugs*

[Azamagon]

If Switch Teleport did these two things:

 

1) Swapping with an enemy = It gets a Radiation-proc for a few seconds

2) Swapping with an ally (including Decoy) = It gets a decent less-damage-taken buff for a few seconds

 

Then it could remain at 25 energy AND it would get more combat-useage AND trolling with Switch Teleport would be less trolly (and could even make Switch Teleport into a more useful ally-saviour-tool) AND then Irradiating Disarm could possibly be changed to something less powerful AND Safeguard Switch could be changed as well (since we could then already buff allies' defenses baseline)

 

Idea for Irradiating Disarm replacement: Make it into Deadly Disarm - Enemies disarmed by Radial Disarm also gets a Deadly Disarm debuff on them for 8/10/12/14 seconds. Deadly Disarm causes enemies to suffer X% of their own damage dealt onto themselves (synergy with Decoy and my revamp of Safeguard Teleport)

 

Idea for Safeguard Teleport replacement: Make it into Irradiating Teleport - Whenever you swap with an enemy, its Radiation-effect is now contagious, meaning that if an enemy attacks the switched target, they ALSO get the contagious Radiation-effect. This can spread to 1/2/3/4 targets beyond the switched one.

 

With those changes, more of Loki's kit will be used, especially Switch Teleport, which is currently a bit too niche in useage (imo).

[Archwizard]

yes, Teleport needs a target just like Switch Teleport. i guess my point is that Switch Teleport is only mobility, yet costs the same as Teleport which is mobility + a Stun & a ton of Damage.

*shrugs*

 

In fairness, Switch Teleport does confuse enemies for a moment, but I do have notes in the OP to improve its combat effectiveness further.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Archwizard

[Basilisk1991]

For Atlas, I personally wish the Boulder from his 2 wasn't so temperamental about bumping into waist high walls. Really I'm not saying it needs to literally flatten the terrain or anything crazy like that, just that it should be able to roll over such things without exploding into a billion tiny little pieces. A solid brick wall or a sealed bulkhead should stop it, but not some crates.

[taiiat]

A solid brick wall or a sealed bulkhead should stop it, but not some crates.

makes sense in general, however the Engine doesn't currently have the tech to determine different types of Objects. a terrain obstacle is a terrain obstacle, period.

[BlackCoMerc]

Basically, implement everything OP lists. Would love these changes.

[Archwizard]

Updated the OP in response to today's Saryn rework, in accordance to my thoughts posted in the rework thread.

 

From what I've seen so far, the complaints about Saryn post-update fall into two major categories:

 

- Miasma is no longer as "Press 4 (and only 4) to Win" nuke viable, and she is thereby harder to min-max because it's no longer as simple as throwing on Transient Fortitude and Fleeting Expertise. 

Players who take issue here completely missed the point that you're not supposed to just be pressing one button (it's called "gameplay" for a reason, so you better get used to it, particularly if you play others that way), and that the increased value of Duration (which affects all of her abilities) significantly alters her energy cost over time, particularly where Toxic Lash is concerned.

"But the effective cost of a cast!" I can already hear them say. Yes, the effective cost of just Miasma is increased, but out of it you get other benefits such as Viral status spread and increased melee damage.

Personally, I'm just relieved that I won't be crowded out in as many leisurely public matches by someone going one-man-army with Miasma spam. (Instead I just need to worry about people with infinite World on Fire and cheaper Radial Javelins...)

 

- Saryn's EHP was dropped.

Personally, I didn't catch straightaway that she lost 25 base HP, but the math shows that she loses 15% EHP before mods.

Previous EHP at rank 30: (150*3) * (1+(155/455)) = 603Current EHP at rank 30: (125*3) * (1+(175/475)) = 513 513/603 = ~85%

Admittedly, this one I can understand the complaint about simply due to the failure in communication; Rebecca hyped that her EHP would get buffed and the correction to this was not pointed out until 20 minutes after the update dropped. (Not trying to shoot the messenger here - as Rebecca pointed out, it was last minute tuning.)

 

Less-frequently mentioned, but occasionally touched upon nonetheless, is an issue that has plagued Saryn since around Update 13 (an oversight caused by what would be seen as an unrelated change to general gameplay): 

- Contagion (and its successor Toxic Lash) is absolutely worthless if you're not carrying a melee weapon.

In fact, today's update merely compounded this fact due to the number of benefits heaped purely onto this effect: Increased damage, ability to pop Spores with melee, and increased blocking effectiveness. But if you decide you just want to level your Soma Prime, 3 is a waste of energy - not in the overstated "the value of this ability is low" sense, but in that it literally confers zero benefit to someone without melee. While other Warframes have abilities that strongly urge you to bring a melee weapon to maximize their potential, Toxic Slash is unparalleled in its reliance on your loadout. Other abilities that put focus on melee confer additional benefits upon the caster in the eventuality that they choose not to carry one - Radial Blind and Paralysis are still CC, Warcry has an enemy debuff and allied armor buff, Speed has a movement bonus, etc. - and in several of these cases, the frame can also provide their own applicable weapon as part of their natural abilities.

 

So, I propose a simple solution that will kill the latter two birds with one stone:

Toxic Lash no longer affects Saryn's ability to block with a melee weapon. Instead, Saryn receives mitigation at all times while Toxic Lash is active, regardless of equipped weapon.

Increased mitigation would make up for the drop in EHP (as I'm sure was the intention with the blocking bonus), while a general benefit would make the ability useful in the event that you don't have a melee weapon (as you can already detonate Spores with rifles). The mitigation cap can remain, of course.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Archwizard

[DSMatticus]

Can we stop acting like everyone who thinks the Saryn rework was... disappointing is secretly complaining about how they wish they could press 4 and win the game forever?

 

My personal opinion is that between Trinity and energy restores, this game's energy economy is in complete shambles. If you want to address ability spam, it's not hard to figure out where you need to look - and it's the little blue bar in the bottom right of the screen that no matter how many times we hammer 1/2/3/4 never, ever seems to run empty. Nerfing the frame du jour is a band-aid - there will always be another next best nuker, and the community will just switch to that frame. Also, nerfing the frame du jour based on whatever people happen to be running Draco with is completely counter-productive; what about the countless CC gods who can press a single button and lock down an entire map? Planning on nerfing those? It's the same principle; an enemy who spends the entire round blind and stunned is exactly as defeated as an enemy who has become a corpse. Actually, in some circumstances (raids) a CC'd enemy is MORE defeated than a corpse because new enemies respawn to replace corpses. If we fixed the energy economy, then we could have a real talk about which abilities are too powerful and which aren't. But as is, when played "optimally" (shudder), the whole damn game is spam, spam, spam to begin with, so nerfing Draco killframes is completely pointless.

 

But just talking about the Saryn rework in the context of the game's ridiculous energy economy... Saryn was a one trick pony (killing trash mobs), and now she is a one trick pony whose trick is less effective for more energy and more set-up time. Ember P now kills things faster for less energy - and Ember P's overall kit has substantially better CC than Saryn could ever dream of! I said it before the rework and I'll say it again now: yes, miasma needed a nerf, but Saryn's overall kit needs versatility to compensate for that nerf. We need a reason to bring her on missions above and beyond nuking things, and then the nerf to her nuke will hurt her less. Like Frost - he has a nukey 4 and his 3 is one of the best utility powers in the game. His nukey 4 does less damage than old miasma (still one of the better nukes in the game), but it also has great CC applications. Frost even has some synergy going on between his 1 and his 3. It's a great kit that lets Frost justify his spot in the team in multiple ways. Saryn needed that kind of versatility - not just a nerf to an ability that, yes, was overpowered - and she didn't get it.

 

And no, viral procs do not save the day. Have you looked at any of the other damage multiplying frames in the game? Banshee, Nova? Their damage multiplication is substantially better than what spores has to offer.

[Volinus7]

I hope to see a scalable nuker after saryn revisited ..... but it is the same as before plus steamroller removal.

Saryn = Steamroller with no scalability

Revisited Saryn = a piece of kubrow poop

Poison Viral Toxin Corrosive Specialist my @#%!

-Viral was nerfed for a while it cannot cut HP again and again like 100>50>25 anymore.

-Toxin damage is stuck by armor

-Miasma is stuck by shield and armor

-Miasma cannot proc corrosive only deal corrosive damage

-Useless melee buff

-No enemies control at all.

-Pathetic damage output

-No ease of use

Verdict : PUT IT IN THE STASIS POD!!

[taiiat]

Toxic Lash no longer affects Saryn's ability to block with a melee weapon. Instead, Saryn receives mitigation at all times while Toxic Lash is active, regardless of equipped weapon.

 

Increased mitigation would make up for the drop in EHP (as I'm sure was the intention with the blocking bonus), while a general benefit would make the ability useful in the event that you don't have a melee weapon (as you can already detonate Spores with rifles). The mitigation cap can remain, of course.

aye. Damage Reduction at all times makes more sense. a Blocking Bonus is good too, but Damage Reduction at all times is appropriate. no reason why you can't have both on the Ability, all it takes is number balance.

still wanting this Ability to create some sort of 'Scale Skin' to bring more of the Venomous Snake side in, as that side is really very much in the background compared to the Poisonus Flower side.

 

and honestly the Toxin Damage Bonus might as well apply to Guns too. keep the 100% Toxin Status to Melee if you'd like, but there's not much of a good reason to not share the Bonus with atleast yourself - preferably with Allies.

 

 

that being said - i'd much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much prefer Miasma to deal half the Damage but have twice the Duration.

i mean, u f...ing wot m8 - even LESS Duration than it had before? it's the only CC Saryn has. it should last longer, not shorter.

 

 

and ofcourse, there was no reason to drop Saryn's Health in the first place. Saryn is supposed to be a Health heavy Warframe, and now she isn't. the extra 20 points of Armor doesn't even come close to compensating.

Saryn even has a below average Sprint Speed because of that Health Pool she no longer has.

again, no reason to have dropped the Health Pool. it's a pretty big part of how the Warframe works, with Regenerative Molt and being so high Energy usage making Rage a tempting choice. not to mention the moderately high Armor.

 

 

while Saryn might get more out of the 'Combo' than she did previously - the Energy Costs are still pretty heavy considering how much Ability usage is being encouraged.

Miasma might as well cost 75E, Molt 35E, Spores 15-20E.

 

Viral was nerfed

always a good example to see users which show that their opinion doesn't matter.

because anyone that wants to whine about how they liked being able to AFKFarm and trivialize the game even further with Viral Status is showing they don't have anything useful to contribute.

 

and Toxin Damage has a Bonus to Ferrite Armor - that's a lot more than you can say about most of the other Damage Types. many of them don't have a Bonus to Armor of any sort, soooo.