Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[--Q--uaint]

14 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

Granted, Shadows of the Dead is a good enough ability to merit its own ability slot, and I have no idea what would replace it, but I thought it would be interesting and thematic for Shadows to appear as he cast his other abilities. It would make it feel like raising the dead comes as naturally to Nekros as breathing

Would it be unreasonable to have both? Following on what I've said previously, his shadows would be durationless but lose HP over time. SotD could have two significant advantages: the boosts it gives to the shadows it spawns, and a set duration where they have health regen instead of health drain (the augment would only apply over this duration as well).

I feel like it'd be pretty cool if Nekros gameplay became something like the following:

Kill priority targets, preferably with Soul Punch because of its low cost, low AoE, last-hitting property, and ability to prioritize those kills over others in your soul cache.
Slowly build a decent size army, which you maintain by casting Siphon Life. (This would be capped at some number, and the lowest-health shadow would explode for 45% of its remaining HP in Viral damage whenever you violated cap)
Emergency shows up, and you pop SotD: these new shadows have buffed statistics and (with augment) can help you stay alive as well. For the duration of SotD, these new shadows do not count against your base cap; at the end of the ability, they are integrated into your base pool of shadows (still with the SotD buffs applied) and the cap is enforced. This will likely create a good number of Viral AoEs to wreck enemy faces and give you time to get back in the normal flow of gameplay.

[taiiat]

i could see both working i suppose, so that you tend to always have a couple dudes following you around, but are able to bulk summon on demand as well, with extra benefits.
bonus points if casting Shadows of the Dead Healed any already existing Shadows for a portion of their total Health. and if Shadows made by Shadows of the Dead and other Abilities tally separately so you can continue adding extra whether you have recently cast Shadows or not.

[--Q--uaint]

2 minutes ago, taiiat said:

bonus points if Shadows made by Shadows of the Dead and other Abilities tally separately so you can continue adding extra whether you have recently cast Shadows or not.

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

For the duration of SotD, these new shadows do not count against your base cap; at the end of the ability, they are integrated into your base pool of shadows (still with the SotD buffs applied) and the cap is enforced.

He would already have Siphon Life to maintain his shadows, so SotD wouldn't really need to?

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

He would already have Siphon Life to maintain his shadows, so SotD wouldn't really need to?

wasn't for necessity, just because more neat things. summoning a big group giving any already existing ones a bit of Health just helps ensure any existing ones are more likely to be 'on par 'with the new ones.

not to be a replacement for what Siphon Life could do (if present).

[Sajochi]

Stopping by here because I've been thinking about some of the warframe ability mechanics, mainly with Ivara, Vauban and Volt. 

For Ivara and Vauban, the ability swap mechanic needs a new casting method. The current one is really clunky to use and really works in Ivara's favor as her playstlye is slower-paced and patient. A better solution would be a key-combo mechanic as follows:

• Pressing the ability key once will activate "switch" mode for 3s. Pressing nothing within that 3s window will not swap the ability.
• Pressing keys 1-4 will swap the abililty. The following are the key presses for Ivara and Vauban
  • 1-1 Cloak Arrow | 2-1 Bounce
  • 1-2 Dashwire Arrow | 2-2 Trip Laser
  • 1-3 Noise Arrow | 2-3 Shred
  • 1-4 Sleep Arrow | 2-4 Concuss
• Hold Quiver/Minelayer to activate currently toggled power
• To prevent accidental switching and general ease of use, holding an ability key during the 3s window will override the switch, allowing a power to be cast normally.

As for Volt, I was thinking about Speed for a bit. As we know, the Speed pickup is kind of an issue in the community due to it's size and how easily it can be lost while playing. There also seems to be a split on whether or not return it to the old Speed buff or add an opt-out mechanic. The thing I want to address is the visibility of the pick up. Volt should leave a pretty large "field" of electricity to represent the Speed boost, slightly bigger than Volt's hitbox. Allies who pass through this field will receive the buff. Now the pick-up is easier to see and gives Volt players more incentive to lead the pack. As for the other issues, I'm not sure where I stand on them and rather see what someone else has to say on it before I can make a decision.

[taiiat]

13 minutes ago, CrazyCortex said:

The current one is really clunky to use

The thing I want to address is the visibility of the pick up. Volt should leave a pretty large "field" of electricity to represent the Speed boost, slightly bigger than Volt's hitbox. Allies who pass through this field will receive the buff. Now the pick-up is easier to see and gives Volt players more incentive to lead the pack.

and you... suggest a system that's even more clunky?
no... thanks.

making the pickup easier to see, sure. but opt-out is the wrong way to handle things. it's always the wrong way to handle such things.

[Sajochi]

2 minutes ago, taiiat said:

and you... suggest a system that's even more clunky?
no... thanks.

making the pickup easier to see, sure. but opt-out is the wrong way to handle things. it's always the wrong way to handle such things.

Ok, how is that clunky? I legitimately want to know your thoughts on it. Normally when I see "no thanks" I tend to dismiss it because it provides nothing that can help fine-tune suggestions, and is a generally a dismissive comment in itself.

And I never said anything about the opt-out except I noticed a split among the community. I only wanted to address visibility for Volt's pickup.

[taiiat]

26 minutes ago, CrazyCortex said:

Ok, how is that clunky?

adding extra Ability holds and Et Cetera, when it's not necessary.
i do not want to be unable to be able to instantly cast somethinig if i suddenly need to while doing something else (or fiddling with Toolbelt Abilities).

if people don't like Hold to Cast and Press to Cycle - have the option to reverse it so it's Press to Cast and Hold to Cycle (sounds awful though).
losing flexibility isn't really helping anyone, because the game is fast paced.
unless it's optional, then go crazy. you'll end up not using it in the long run anyways though.

Edited June 8, 2016 by taiiat

[Archwizard]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

opt-out is the wrong way to handle things. it's always the wrong way to handle such things.

Worked fine for Banish. The only issue is that there's not a lot of visibility on how to opt-out, which is a fix that depends on the UI team.

Besides, let's be perfectly honest: There are more cases where people would take the available option of opting into Speed if they knew it was available, compared to people who would opt out of it. For every dozen or so people who would not object to the speed buff, there's about one guy who would prefer to... what, modulate how quickly he's moving? But the people who wouldn't object are the ones being penalized by being asked to backtrack to locate and acquire the speed buff in the first place.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Archwizard

[RealPandemonium]

15 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Worked fine for Banish. The only issue is that there's not a lot of visibility on how to opt-out, which is a fix that depends on the UI team.

Besides, let's be perfectly honest: There are more cases where people would take the available option of opting into Speed if they knew it was available, compared to people who would opt out of it. For every dozen or so people who would not object to the speed buff, there's about one guy who would prefer to... what, modulate how quickly he's moving? But the people who wouldn't object are the ones being penalized by being asked to backtrack to locate and acquire the speed buff in the first place.

Rolling is still a crappy way of opting out, even from Banish.  We need something better (although I'm convinced that the number of people who are legitimately inconvenienced by Speed's movement increase are vastly overstated.)

Edited June 8, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[taiiat]

22 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Worked fine for Banish.

no it didn't.
it's "fine" because the Limbo isn't annoyed by it, so very few people care. compounded by that seeing a Limbo is rare in the first place.
the receiving Player is still inconvenienced by another Player for no good reason. Opt-out means getting annoyed, rather than not getting annoyed.

Opt-in doesn't inconvenience anyone. because game mechanics aren't forced to be disabled in order to retain a different part of the game.
if a Player must have a certain bonus every living second, maybe they should be that Warframe, because that's how you ensure that happens.

[RealPandemonium]

7 minutes ago, taiiat said:

no it didn't.
it's "fine" because the Limbo isn't annoyed by it, so very few people care. compounded by that seeing a Limbo is rare in the first place.
the receiving Player is still inconvenienced by another Player for no good reason. Opt-out means getting annoyed, rather than not getting annoyed.

Opt-in doesn't inconvenience anyone. because game mechanics aren't forced to be disabled in order to retain a different part of the game.
if a Player must have a certain bonus every living second, maybe they should be that Warframe, because that's how you ensure that happens.

As long as you can opt-in without having to navigate to a powerup, that's fine.  The current implementation for Speed killed it as a party buff.  

[Gurpgork]

Well, looks like Nekros just got another augment for a feature that should be an inherent part of the ability. 

[taiiat]

29 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

As long as you can opt-in without having to navigate to a powerup, that's fine.  The current implementation for Speed killed it as a party buff.  

perhaps. i don't really care how you opt-in, as long as it's something that doesn't create the same problem for Players that want it, that being having to turn off a mechanic or some other silly thing.

28 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Well, looks like Nekros just got another augment for a feature that should be an inherent part of the ability. 

idunno, personally i don't really want it, when i cast Terrify i do actually want Enemies to run super far away.
*shrugs*

[Archwizard]

Finally getting some answers about Volt's Discharge today at least.

Some changes to make to it:

• Arc damage no longer counts towards the damage cap, only damage a target takes from an individual instance of the ability.
• The damage cap is not reduced by the target's damage resistance.

43 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Well, looks like Nekros just got another augment for a feature that should be an inherent part of the ability. 

Not happy about it either.

[Nightange1]

Would it make sense for ember to gain the ability supernova from phoenix in dota 2? Instead of world on fire, it would make her much more survivable yet still would create a risk vs reward scenario. Should I be reborn in the midst of enemies to be able to deal damage but run the risk of dying or should I do it away from enemies but miss out on damage and cc? It would fill the same theme as world on fire being amongst the enemies to set them ablaze.  

[--Q--uaint]

5 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

The current implementation for Speed killed it as a party buff.

I was initially definitely not a fan of the change, but there is one positive aspect: using Speed as a buffing power for melee in a more static game mode is much easier now. If you're doing Draco/Survival/Defense you can just pop Speed when you're in a relatively central location and your squadmates can grab it easily if they want it. This is accentuated by the ability to recast Speed that they just added.

The powerup could totally use a minimap indicator, though.

[RunningTree3]

Re: Vauban's Minelayer

I think there is agreeance that Ivara having Hold to Cast suits her playstyle, while it does not for Vauban. I would personally say that any Hold (to swap or to cast) seems unsuitable for him.

Suggestion:

* Merge Minelayer into Tesla as Ability 1, becoming "Mine Layer" with standard Tap to cast.

* Ability 2 becomes "Mine Loader", becoming standard Tap to cast, costing zero energy, and rotates through the mines in #1.

Now there is no Hold to Cast for Vauban while retaining his arsenal.

Edited June 9, 2016 by RunningTree3

[--Q--uaint]

7 minutes ago, RunningTree3 said:

Suggestion:

* Merge Minelayer into Tesla as Ability 1, becoming "Mine Layer" with standard Tap to cast.

* Ability 2 becomes "Mine Loader", becoming standard Tap to cast, costing zero energy, and rotates through the mines in #1.

Sounds good to me

[Archwizard]

On 6/8/2016 at 10:35 PM, RunningTree3 said:

Suggestion:

* Merge Minelayer into Tesla as Ability 1, becoming "Mine Layer" with standard Tap to cast.

* Ability 2 becomes "Mine Loader", becoming standard Tap to cast, costing zero energy, and rotates through the mines in #1.

Now there is no Hold to Cast for Vauban while retaining his arsenal.

Hmm. Curious, but intriguing take on it.

I mean I know there's nothing to say they can't handle 5 options, but I feel like that would require them to remove one mine-type from Minelayer to pull off...

[Aquasurge]

2 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Hmm. Curious, but intriguing take on it.

I mean I know there's nothing to say they can't handle 5 options, but I feel like that would require them to remove one mine-type from Minelayer to pull off...

though i did hear a suggestion the other day for telsa to switch between base elemental dmg.

[RunningTree3]

6 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Hmm. Curious, but intriguing take on it.

I mean I know there's nothing to say they can't handle 5 options, but I feel like that would require them to remove one mine-type from Minelayer to pull off...

Indeed, difficult to know what is possible.

Regardless, I would suggest Bounce go the way of SuperJump and be made redundant (read: removed), with its effects re-distributed amongst the other mines: add Magnetic proc effect to Trip Laser, add Impact damage to Concuss; while Shred already has launching.

[Archwizard]

14 minutes ago, RunningTree3 said:

Indeed, difficult to know what is possible.

Regardless, I would suggest Bounce go the way of SuperJump and be made redundant (read: removed), with its effects re-distributed amongst the other mines: add Magnetic proc effect to Trip Laser, add Impact damage to Concuss; while Shred already has launching.

Personally I think it's more likely they'd remove Concuss, unless they combined the player-friendly function of Bounce with Shred.

The entire reason why Minelayer was implemented was so they could redeem Bounce within his kit, as they have proven a lack of any intention of removing it, fueled primarily (now) by its use in the Vauban Prime cinematic.

Keep in mind, Super Jump wasn't simply removed; its functionality was folded both into basic gameplay and - most relevantly to maintaining the game's image and "you can do anything you see in the trailers" promise - into Slash Dash.

Plus, let's be honest: in many peoples' eyes and memories (including many of the CMs bridging our communications with the dev team), Vauban is synonymous with the Bouncy hallway. Removing it completely for the sake of a half-second's convenience would be an uphill battle with the dev team.

Besides, we're all forgetting the important thing here: If you divided the effects of the grenades over two separate abilities, how would they be affected by ranking up either ability? What about augments, for the matter - they couldn't be designed for just one ability anymore...

Edited June 12, 2016 by Archwizard

[RunningTree3]

8 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Personally I think it's more likely they'd remove Concuss, unless they combined the player-friendly function of Bounce with Shred.

The entire reason why Minelayer was implemented was so they could redeem Bounce within his kit, as they have proven a lack of any intention of removing it, fueled primarily (now) by its use in the Vauban Prime cinematic.

Keep in mind, Super Jump wasn't simply removed; its functionality was folded both into basic gameplay and - most relevantly to maintaining the game's image and "you can do anything you see in the trailers" promise - into Slash Dash.

Plus, let's be honest: in many peoples' eyes and memories (including many of the CMs bridging our communications with the dev team), Vauban is synonymous with the Bouncy hallway. Removing it completely for the sake of a half-second's convenience would be an uphill battle with the dev team.

Besides, we're all forgetting the important thing here: If you divided the effects of the grenades over two separate abilities, how would they be affected by ranking up either ability? What about augments, for the matter - they couldn't be designed for just one ability anymore...

I see the bind with PR/product representation. That is why I would fold the bounce of Bounce into Shred or vice versa (given that the Blast damage formerly in Bounce is now in Shred)

The same augment issue already exists with current Minelayer and Quiver; not that it cannot be solved.

Augment consideration: Tesla Link becomes Mine Link. Any mine ball can form a slash link with any other.  However Tesla and Trip Laser would obviously still be clear winners with this, given that Concuss and Shred are single-use -- to which I say, they should have at least a few uses, like how Bounce currently has 4, giving all mines some persistence in a fight.

Perhaps the Augment for Mine Loader might be: Over Loader (thanks Volt!) "Launch one of each mine variation in one toss" for a bundle discount on energy cost, 5 balls for the energy cost of 4! Someone might have a better idea. But the issue is not insurmountable.

As for ranking up, I guess when I proposed Mine Loader, I did not think it would need to rank up unless, perhaps, there was a token energy cost involved that went 4/3/2/1 or something of the sort. But I did make a point of putting all grenades into one ability, not spread out over two. So potentially, with or without Bounce:

Warframe Level 0: Mine Layer: Tesla and Bounce unlocked (however Bounce cannot be rotated into until...)

Level 3: Mine Loader unlocked (essentially 'unlocking' Bounce)

Level 7: Mine Layer: Trip Laser unlocked. Level 12: Mine Loader ranks up. Level 14: Mine Layer: Shred unlocked. Level 18: Concuss unlocked.

[Azamagon]

As for my opinions on Vauban's mines:

* Tesla is a good one, but needs more utility. Having a higher (or even guaranteed) chance to proc Electric would be swell.

* Bounce is kind of S#&$ty, but if combining all its strengths with Shred, it would be a GREAT mine: Bigger triggering area, bigger blast area, shreds armor, ragdolls enemies, deals more significant amounts of damage, can re-activate several times. That would make it actually USEFUL!

* Shred is nice, but it would be MUCH better if, as mentioned above, it was combined with Bounce.

* Concuss is one of the better ones, so I'd keep it in one way or another.

* Trip Laser feels... tacked on. I'd rather this was another bonus of the Tesla Link augment instead (so, the added lasers deals slash damage (and 100% slash proc would be nice too) as well as tripping enemies)

In short, it could be more qualiity over quantity.

 

That leaves us with:

1) Tesla (with Trip Laser being an added utility of the Tesla Link augment)

2) Bounce (Now being Bounce+Shred)

3) Concuss

This could either be made into RunningTree3's idea of having #1 be cast one of the mines and #2 to swap between them, or one could reduce the amounts further:

1) Tesal (with Trip Laser being an added utility of the Tesla Link augment)

2) Bounce (Now being Bounce+Shred+Concuss (as in: Adding the radiation part to it as well, making it have tons of utility))

That would be quality over quantity for sure + we could get rid of the Ivara-mechanic entirely, as it just doesn't fit him.