Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[--Q--uaint]

12 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Besides, we're all forgetting the important thing here: If you divided the effects of the grenades over two separate abilities, how would they be affected by ranking up either ability? What about augments, for the matter - they couldn't be designed for just one ability anymore...

Simple answer: Tesla Link now applies to all grenades, #2's augment could easily be another type of grenade to switch to (turret, anyone?)

Ranking up #1 would buff the effectiveness of grenades, while ranking #2 would give you more kinds of grenades.

7 hours ago, Azamagon said:

* Bounce is kind of S#&$ty, but if combining all its strengths with Shred, it would be a GREAT mine: Bigger triggering area, bigger blast area, shreds armor, ragdolls enemies, deals more significant amounts of damage, can re-activate several times. That would make it actually USEFUL!

There's a problem: Bounce works on allies, while Shred does not.

Bounce should almost certainly stay part of his kit, but having a "bounce" that works only on enemies is also a really good thing.

[(PSN)mr_chainsaw555]

while these well thought out proposals are... admirable, it's just that... unless you get the warframe community to spam links to this thread shouting "omg DE, look at dis!", DE's not going to implement these changes out of the whims of one person who may not know the full ramifications of these changes. sorry to crush your optimism with realism, i just don't want people like you wasting your time on a pipe dream

 

[Azamagon]

22 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

1) Simple answer: Tesla Link now applies to all grenades, #2's augment could easily be another type of grenade to switch to (turret, anyone?)

-snip-

2) There's a problem: Bounce works on allies, while Shred does not.

3) Bounce should almost certainly stay part of his kit, but having a "bounce" that works only on enemies is also a really good thing.

1) But Tesla already -IS- his Turret power if you think about it! That it is a bit weak is a different problem :P

2) Who's to say that my suggested uber-merge (Bounce+Shred+Concuss) can't keep it's ally-bouncing TOO? :D

3) Well, as Archwizard already mentioned, it seems the Devs are intent on making the things you see in trailers possible to do in-game too, so I'd say we keep it (just give it some kind of restrictions to not be so trolly)

11 hours ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

while these well thought out proposals are... admirable, it's just that... unless you get the warframe community to spam links to this thread shouting "omg DE, look at dis!", DE's not going to implement these changes out of the whims of one person who may not know the full ramifications of these changes. sorry to crush your optimism with realism, i just don't want people like you wasting your time on a pipe dream

 

My optimism for WF was more or less crushed LOOOONG time ago, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss anyway, especially when we are in good moods ^_^

[(PSN)mr_chainsaw555]

35 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

My optimism for WF was more or less crushed LOOOONG time ago, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss anyway, especially when we are in good moods ^_^

meh, point taken

[MotherofHermes]

a possible passive for limbo.

rework rift walk. apply it to his roll move. most people use this to get out of the rift. make limbo seamlessly able to get in and out of it by rolling. would feel natural and classy. Just a thought.

[taiiat]

21 minutes ago, milesthefox said:

would feel natural

to who?

tying more things to mobility actions that are not mobility actions, only increases the problem.

[Aquasurge]

25 minutes ago, milesthefox said:

a possible passive for limbo.

rework rift walk. apply it to his roll move. most people use this to get out of the rift. make limbo seamlessly able to get in and out of it by rolling. would feel natural and classy. Just a thought.

or allow him to phase through enemies and certain walls/doors.

[--Q--uaint]

21 hours ago, Azamagon said:

2) Who's to say that my suggested uber-merge (Bounce+Shred+Concuss) can't keep it's ally-bouncing TOO? :D

You missed my point. Vauban should have a "Bounce-alike" that works on enemies that does not also work on allies. Bounce shenanigans are an integral part of Vauban IMO, but he should have a way to lay mines that his allies can't detonate early to prevent accidental trolling on both sides.

[Archwizard]

So, with some of the Limbo discussions on the last two Devstreams, I felt it was a good time to shift some of the focus over to him since he's immediately pressing.

I sent a PM to Rebecca which I mirrored over to Reddit for discussion, the core of which reads:

Quote

Limbo's very much a frame whose powers provide a unique function and utility, but he has a high skill ceiling with very little room for actual effectiveness or personal creativity beyond support buffing. Several of the abilities within his kit redundantly apply the same status effect in different ways; while this theoretically increases his fluidity, in practice it just takes away potential to do anything but apply one buff or debuff. The only ability in his kit that doesn't apply the Rift, relies on it entirely - unlike a skill such as Miasma or Dive Bomb that is amplified up by other abilities, Rift Surge has zero effectiveness without Cataclysm or both Banish and Rift Walk, and frankly, a lot of people are confused how it works due to its ambiguous phrasing (believing that it debuffs all enemies within the Rift, causing the entire party to receive its benefits on things like powers). The effective cost of using Rift Surge in any capacity is incredibly high, and the low regeneration he gets from the Rift can barely do more than break even fueling Surge alone. 
Presently his main offensive strategy is simply to Banish and ground-finish targets, which quickly becomes repetitive, and attempts to utilize his Cataclysm (even with Rift Torrent) are offset by his low survivability. It's difficult to use the Rift as a primary CC when the Rift is also Limbo's main defensive measure - Banishing a Heavy Gunner to save a teammate often means you have a hostile entity waiting on the other side if you later go in to save yourself. Additionally, as I said in our last conversation, another of his biggest failings is that he lacks quality of life within the Rift, which makes player reactions to him hostile as he can be a grave annoyance (or worse) to the party when misused. 
Below are some changes to his usability and utility, to make him both a more effective teammate, and more appealing to a larger audience, while still maintaining the integrity of the Rift mechanic:

Towards Effectiveness:

• Enemies inside Cataclysm are unable to leave the field on their own (crashing into the inner walls like Atlas' Bulwarks), and are pulled toward its center as the sphere shrinks. Banishing an enemy who is inside Cataclysm violently expels them from Cataclysm. (Perhaps enemies who are Banished while Cataclysm is active should also be teleported into Cataclysm as well?)
• Rift Walk merged with Rift Surge, giving him bonus damage whenever Rift Walk is active. Rift Torrent augment is instead attached to Rift Walk.
• Rift Surge replaced with a new ability that changes its effects depending on whether Limbo is in the Rift or not, rather than having zero effects within one state. (Perhaps something related to mobility or stealth? After all, he is a magician - "Now you see me...")
• Enemies who enter or exit the Rift by any means (entering Cataclysm, Banish falling off, etc) receive guaranteed Impact status, unless overwritten by Banish's knockdown.
• Passive: Limbo is more Evasive at all times, displacing incoming attacks with the Rift; enemies have a higher chance to miss him entirely, regardless of what Rift state he is in.

Towards Quality of Life or Ability "Feel":

• Banished enemies are not able to access consoles outside of the Rift, just like Tenno. Cataclysm pulls pickups and consoles into the Rift, and does not cause allies to drop datamasses.
• The Rift no longer leaves Tenno vulnerable to enemies' area-effect attacks.
• Hold-casting Banish (a la Quiver or Minelayer) will cause enemies within 5 meters of your target, affected by Power Range, to receive the effects of Banish simultaneously; only your main target will be knocked down by this.
• Rift Walk cast-time reduced.
• Being inside the Rift also removes collision against entities outside of the Rift, and vice versa. Enemies will not be alerted if someone within the Rift bumps into them. (Perhaps entering/exiting the Rift too close to an enemy or object on the destination side could ragdoll/deal damage to them, as if you were to materialize within them?)
• Banish and Cataclysm can be used to damage objects, such as grates and fans.
• There needs to be some type of in-game indicator to remind players that they can Roll to remove Banish; as it was a late addition to his kit and there is no mention anywhere in-game, there are many players who do not know that without consulting the wiki, and become frustrated by Limbo players trying to help them.
  Alternately, a more visible form of opting out of buffs can be included in the UI.

The idea with the Cataclysm/Banish interaction is that it plays off of Limbo's theme as a math magician, constantly moving parts and calculating positions. He can set down Cataclysm as a trap and a way to group up enemies (for weapons such as, oh, Opticor?), or alternately place it on Defense targets and Interception consoles and manually expel enemies from it with Banish (befitting its name). Presently you can't really use it as a trap because enemies can just walk out of Cataclysm at any time. Altogether, this gives him some variance to his strategies to match that skill ceiling, which could be further amplified by whatever new ability he receives.
Combining Rift Walk and Rift Surge is a natural change, since Rift Surge is dependent on Rift Walk anyway and Rift Walk has an effect that isn't dependent on other abilities. Plus, the damage bonus he receives from Rift Walk would blend well with the Impact stun he places on targets who enter, giving him that split second to blow up a target when they enter Cataclysm without needing to give him some obscene mitigation.
The key quality of life change necessary to make Limbo accepted, is based on how he interacts with objects that cannot be brought into or affected within the Rift. Presently Cataclysm is highly inconsistent in this regard, which makes the Rift unintuitive to use - you can use it to bring Defense, Capture or Assasination targets into the Rift that Banish can't, but not objects like consoles or datamasses. By limiting this effect to Cataclysm itself, it means you could target a console without having to leave the Rift but enemies still have a chance to come after you, or that someone can't absolutely mess you up in Survivals or Excavations by putting a whole room full of O2 packs or Excavators into the Rift just to receive a damage bonus.

Most of the discussions within the post are already covered in the OP, of course, but it's an appropriate time to look into critique.

[taiiat]

you know, part of that just suddenly made me realize - why doesn't Limbo have a way to 'purge' the Rift? just flat out cancel the Rifts' existence entirely.
maybe i can word that better. rather than trying to find the 23597 Enemies you put into Rift, why can't Limbo just cancel it all at once.

so then pending situation you could bring Enemies here and there into Rift to save someone, but then easily purge Enemies back out of it later without having to pixel snipe a bunch of Enemies where ever the hell they went.

[Azamagon]

@Archwizard I like those ideas for Limbo.

Some thoughts:

• Hold-casting Banish shouldn't require targetting imo, it should just cause an AoE Banish around the position you aim at. Fine aim + hold-casting just doesn't seem very userfriendly AND it (very partially) could help with the problem which taiiat mentions (having a way to more easily clear out enemies of the rift). Together with the Cataclysm trapping enemies and Banish being able expel them out of Cataclysm (potentially mass-expelling with the AoE Banish?), this sounds like lots of fun and enabling lots more strategy to him
• Need to emphasize on your idea of the phasing through enemies + materializing in them for ragdolling+damage, that sounds like it could add lots of gory fun. Please add this! >:)
• Brainstorming: As for what to replace Rift Surge with, I'd like something that further emphasizes his magician theme. I have always had the idea of him throwing around magic cards (made of energy) which he could utilize in various ways. Like, cast it, and it will stay in its landing position for a while and constantly hurt enemies who are near it (and maybe add some other side-effect *shrugs*). However, if you "recast" the card  (while it still remains / is in flight), Limbo will teleport to it (similar to Nezha's Chakram). Furthermore, if you cast Banish on the card, all your Banished enemies are moved to the card's location (consuming the card with an explosion afterwards?). Hold-casting the card always throws a new card (so you don't HAVE to teleport to it for recastability). I dunno, just tossing out random ideas here, I'd just like something which opens up a flexible and fun playstyle.
• Everything else you have suggested is just really nice, would like all of it.

That said however, the biggest issue with Limbo is, to me, his detriment to teammates (even when his intentions are well meant) and his insanely annoying loot-interactions

I think Limbo and his allies should be able to pick up ANY object/loot and be able to use ANY consoles etc while banished. Logic behind this? Well, the banishment he puts on allies allows them to banish lesser inanimate objects too, thus allowing the items to go into the rift with them. This could even lend its way to their melee strikes: Limbo or an ally who is in the rift, when they attack with melee, they banish their targets (including allowing to melee crates etc) for the remainder of their stay in the rift.
However, ENEMIES who are banished are not allowed (or maybe even just incapable, due to having no void powers) to use or interact with anything on the opposite rift-end.

I think that would alleviate a lot of the frustration that Limbo currently can bring along.

 

[Aquasurge]

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

@Archwizard I like those ideas for Limbo.

Some thoughts:

 

• Brainstorming: As for what to replace Rift Surge with, I'd like something that further emphasizes his magician theme. I have always had the idea of him throwing around magic cards (made of energy) which he could utilize in various ways. Like, cast it, and it will stay in its landing position for a while and constantly hurt enemies who are near it (and maybe add some other side-effect *shrugs*). However, if you "recast" the card  (while it still remains / is in flight), Limbo will teleport to it (similar to Nezha's Chakram). Furthermore, if you cast Banish on the card, all your Banished enemies are moved to the card's location (consuming the card with an explosion afterwards?). Hold-casting the card always throws a new card (so you don't HAVE to teleport to it for recastability). I dunno, just tossing out random ideas here, I'd just like something which opens up a flexible and fun playstyle.

yes - magic cards that turn into portals, trap mines or darts  - the possibilities are endless!

[CataReverb]

Pardon if another's asked this, Archwizard, but regarding your Nekros overhaul, would the passive be disabled while shadows is up, or would it nullify itself, since when shadows are up and something dies in your rework, you'd gain energy for the passive, then lose some when shadows makes another minion?  When Inaros was released, I thought through a similar rework for Nekros, but more in line with the game as it is than as it should be.  The only notable idea for consideration I had was that Nekros would have no Health or armor, but rather shields, more energy, and passive Quick Thinking effect at 300% and Equilibrium effect at 100% (that both red and blue orbs gave full value to energy.)  As the whole undead theme would fit that way.  I know it's stepping on Inaros's special health deal a bit, but I feel it's something that makes more sense for Nekros at the end of the day.

Also, for Volt, I was considering an additional Passive, "Powerline" where movement on ziplines is increased incredible amounts.  Speed opt-ins last for the mission or until pickup, allowing a volt to seed a map in front of him.

Whatever happens with Limbo, the objective should be to remove his ability to disrupt other players, and make him a proper insane extradimmensional gentleman thief parlour magician.  Probably, the only thing that could live in the void are warframes, so things caught in the rift between can be interacted upon by those on both sides (Warframes in the void and outside)

Edited June 18, 2016 by Arkinvas
And another thing?

[taiiat]

On 6/17/2016 at 10:13 PM, Azamagon said:

Need to emphasize on your idea of the phasing through enemies + materializing in them for ragdolling+damage, that sounds like it could add lots of gory fun. Please add this!

you say gore, i immediately imagine phasing into Enemies, causing them to explode into the maximum gibs that Enemy can create, on death and all at once.

an explosion of body parts.

[Aquasurge]

22 hours ago, Arkinvas said:

Also, for Volt, I was considering an additional Passive, "Powerline" where movement on ziplines is increased incredible amounts.  Speed opt-ins last for the mission or until pickup, allowing a volt to seed a map in front of him.

i like it. Additionally here is my idea of an addition volt's  passive (an alternate way of getting the dmg buff that benefits the caster theme of volt):

 "Volt now has an increased chance for enemies to drop energy orbs which now  on pick up add +750 electric damage (per energy orb) to his next attack. If volt's energy pool is full - the electric damage bonus will double (per orb) on the next pick up of an energy orb".

if this was combined with @Archwizard's volt ideas of the riot electric shield, then two major flaws of volt could be dealt with in one stone.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Aquasurge
wrong currency

[Azamagon]

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

you say gore, i immediately imagine phasing into Enemies, causing them to explode into the maximum gibs that Enemy can create, on death and all at once.

an explosion of body parts.

Exactly >:)

... are we sadists for liking this? xD ... I need to go and play some more Brutal Doom haha :P

 

[--Q--uaint]

On 6/17/2016 at 8:13 PM, Azamagon said:

I think Limbo and his allies should be able to pick up ANY object/loot and be able to use ANY consoles etc while banished. Logic behind this? Well, the banishment he puts on allies allows them to banish lesser inanimate objects too, thus allowing the items to go into the rift with them. This could even lend its way to their melee strikes: Limbo or an ally who is in the rift, when they attack with melee, they banish their targets (including allowing to melee crates etc) for the remainder of their stay in the rift.

I like the feel of this, but I also think it might be a little OP. Another question is whether it works on Nullifiers, since allied buffs aren’t canceled by Nulls.

[Aquasurge]

On 6/18/2016 at 0:13 PM, Azamagon said:

That said however, the biggest issue with Limbo is, to me, his detriment to teammates (even when his intentions are well meant) and his insanely annoying loot-interactions

I think Limbo and his allies should be able to pick up ANY object/loot and be able to use ANY consoles etc while banished. Logic behind this? Well, the banishment he puts on allies allows them to banish lesser inanimate objects too, thus allowing the items to go into the rift with them. This could even lend its way to their melee strikes: Limbo or an ally who is in the rift, when they attack with melee, they banish their targets (including allowing to melee crates etc) for the remainder of their stay in the rift.
However, ENEMIES who are banished are not allowed (or maybe even just incapable, due to having no void powers) to use or interact with anything on the opposite rift-end.

I think that would alleviate a lot of the frustration that Limbo currently can bring along.

 

like the copier theory for blackholes? sorry if this wastes your time by bending you brain inside out.

http://www.futurity.org/copy-machine-model-complete-hawkings-black-hole-theory/

[--Q--uaint]

14 hours ago, Aquasurge said:

like the copier theory for blackholes? sorry if this wastes your time by bending you brain inside out.

http://www.futurity.org/copy-machine-model-complete-hawkings-black-hole-theory/

Could you shed some light on how that’s relevant to Limbo? I looked at it, but didn’t see any correlation.

Edited June 21, 2016 by ChronoEclipse

[Aquasurge]

2 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Could you shed some light on how that’s relevant to Limbo? I looked at it, but didn’t see any correlation.

“If you throw information at a black hole, just before it is swallowed, the black hole first makes a copy that is left outside. "

so what i am getting at here is that the rift should open up random portals between the normal relm and vis versa that suck in and copy loot/datamasses/consoles to the rift which would in theory "double loot" and solve a lot of the problems with the rift.

[RunningTree3]

Re: Limbo

Once again, a great write-up by @Archwizard

I offer a suggestion for a new 3rd ability, a complete rework for Rift Surge:

 

Rift Surge (originally intended to call it Rift Overflow)

Lore: “By inverting planar frequencies simultaneously on either side of the horizon threshold, a minor fissure could be sustained by the sheer force of the ensuing energy surge.” - notes from Limbo’s Theorem

Description: Surge void energy through a fissure in the Rift into the Material plane.

New Mechanics:
Target a location to affect a small area. Enemies and allies (including player) caught in initial cast area are phased into the Rift for the duration of the Rift Surge instance (allies may exit via rolling). Enemies and allies already in the Rift are returned to the Material plane.

After initial cast, a small ‘tear’ remains that pours void energy in an area for a short duration. Allies and player in vicinity receive an energy generation boost (as though having entered the Rift, while energy generation in the Rift within the AoE is doubled)

Enemies that stray close to the ‘tear’ receive moderate damage over time. (As a warframe ability, the damage occurs in both the Rift and Material planes)

Allies are able to self-banish from Material to Rift plane by melee striking the ‘tear’ (and exit via rolling). The duration of self-banish lasts as long as the remaining duration of the Rift Surge instance.

Relationship with Banish: Rift Surge will target an area, and can affect more than one enemy/ally. As the more `focused` targeted ability, Banish procs Knockdown, while RS procs Knockback.

Relationship with Rift Walk: Rift Walk is still the more energy-efficient method for Limbo to enter the Rift. At unmodded efficiency and duration, RS`s energy gain will not completely refund its casting cost, but can be modded to do so. However, RS will be the only way to bring the Rift’s energy generation benefits into the Material plane.

Relationship with Cataclysm: RS will only phase mobs between planes on initial cast. Other enemies/allies entering the area remain in their respective planes. As the 4th ability, Cataclysm will span greater power range than RS.

Additionally, c.f. @Archwizard, Cataclysm will be the only ability that can move objects (ammo, orbs, power cells, datamasses, defense objectives, consoles) into the Rift. Both RS and Cataclysm will cause Impact damage and proc Knockback when enemies transition between planes.
 

TL;DR Rift Surge is now cast at a location, provides a small AoE banish, a moderate AoE DoT, a small energy regen boost -- all of which affects both Rift and Material planes; plus an optional self-banish for allies.

Edited June 22, 2016 by RunningTree3
Added tl;dr

[--Q--uaint]

9 hours ago, Aquasurge said:

“If you throw information at a black hole, just before it is swallowed, the black hole first makes a copy that is left outside. "

so what i am getting at here is that the rift should open up random portals between the normal relm and vis versa that suck in and copy loot/datamasses/consoles to the rift which would in theory "double loot" and solve a lot of the problems with the rift.

The Rift is definitely not a black hole, and the "copy" they're talking about in that link is information. The black hole doesn't actually copy the items it drags in.

Doubling loot would be a bad idea, for reasons Archwizard and others have pontificated on in the past. Randomness for the sake of randomness is basically never good, and you haven't clarified whether it would be a passive or active ability.

Copying datamasses and consoles is an entirely different matter and would cause... issues, I think.

[Aquasurge]

14 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

The Rift is definitely not a black hole, and the "copy" they're talking about in that link is information. The black hole doesn't actually copy the items it drags in.

Doubling loot would be a bad idea, for reasons Archwizard and others have pontificated on in the past. Randomness for the sake of randomness is basically never good, and you haven't clarified whether it would be a passive or active ability.

Copying datamasses and consoles is an entirely different matter and would cause... issues, I think.

i guess you're right. just a thought

[(PSN)sammyp03]

Mag

Ability 1: Pull - Now also pulls shrapnel towards your frame. Any shrapnel that comes within a 2 meter range of mag restores shield (or provides an armor boost) dependent upon power strength for a limited duration (while its still magnetized)

Ability 2: Magnetize - Now her best Ability. Very good damage, very good CC. Again No complaints.

Ability 3: Polarize - Remove all damage completely and instead allow Polarize to do a % against shields and armor allowing her to completely strip them with a few casts. (ill let all you math guru's figure out all that). Still does the shrapnel for her magnetize synergy and still restores shields. after armor is removed, polarize produces extra shrapnel.

Ability 4: Crush - Now grants invulnerability during the first two ticks (or lifts? dont know what you call it) allowing mag to not be instantly vaporized and she can now viably use crush as CC

[RealPandemonium]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)sammyp03 said:

Ability 3: Polarize - Remove all damage completely and instead allow Polarize to do a % against shields and armor allowing her to completely strip them with a few casts. (ill let all you math guru's figure out all that). Still does the shrapnel for her magnetize synergy and still restores shields. after armor is removed, polarize produces extra shrapnel.

Ability 4: Crush - Now grants invulnerability during the first two ticks (or lifts? dont know what you call it) allowing mag to not be instantly vaporized and she can now viably use crush as CC

3: Fracturing crush already does this when combined with Polarize.

4: Crush is already reliable CC as long as there aren't enemies outside its range shooting you; the moment you hit 4 all affected enemies will stop shooting and remain unable to attack you until they get up from the knockdown.  If you perform crush while standing in a Napalm fire or next to a Toxic Ancient, that's your fault.