Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[--Q--uaint]

On 6/28/2016 at 7:25 PM, taiiat said:

sure, in extreme situations you could theoretically exceed 100% - just cap it. not practical to do anyways, feels like it would require more than one Mod Stat being maxed - good luck with that!

With my proposed change of Crush removing percentages of the enemy's overall armor as shrapnel, I think that's less far out than you might think... however, if the player manages to gather 100 pieces of shrapnel, I say they deserve their short-lived invulnerability (and/or healing?!).

You say that your solution is simpler, but I think that telling players "you get bonus armor that also works for shields" is simpler for the end-user than spelling out an equation.

I think your solution here is a pretty workable and/or good one, but I think I prefer the armor calculation since it gives you decent protection at low levels of power without giving easy godmode.
Remember, we want Mag to be a new-player-accessable 'frame.

Some case studies to illustrate my point:
Your example of 5 shrapnel pieces and base strength gives a DR of ~47% with the armor calculation, but ~22% with yours.
With 5 shrapnel pieces and 200% strength, you'd get a DR of ~64% with the armor calculation, but ~34% with yours.
With 10 shrapnel pieces and base strength, we'd be looking at ~56% from the armor system and ~31% from your system.
With 10 shrapnel pieces and 200% strength, you'd get a DR of ~71% with the armor calculation, but ~45% with yours.

You clearly do pull ahead by scaling that power strength up pretty quickly, but that's roughly equivalent to other 'frames getting armor buffs scaling linearly with strength. Not having a lot of strength also doesn't disadvantage you too much - this just gives her a little more endgame competitiveness.

Another approach I would accept would be that the shrapnel pieces always count for a certain amount of armor, and getting more strength just means more pieces and doesn't scale your power level. My main worry here is processor performance (and maybe players feeling they don't get enough bang for their power strength "buck").

[taiiat]

11 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

With my proposed change of Crush removing percentages of the enemy's overall armor as shrapnel, I think that's less far out than you might think... however, if the player manages to gather 100 pieces of shrapnel, I say they deserve their short-lived invulnerability (and/or healing?!).

You say that your solution is simpler, but I think that telling players "you get bonus armor that also works for shields" is simpler for the end-user than spelling out an equation.

I think your solution here is a pretty workable and/or good one, but I think I prefer the armor calculation since it gives you decent protection at low levels of power without giving easy godmode.

- soooo, now it's based off of the Armor removed from the Enemy, rather than from the side of the Ability?
in that case, it's too unreliable. Shrapnel should be worth equal regardless of how it's created.

- your solution is the more complicated one, because you're creating an Armor value, and then creating a Damage Reduction Percentage from it. i'm creating just a Damage Reduction Percentage. i'm skipping the middle man.

- i prefer mine because this is a 'passive' feature. you cannot expect a huge amount from this without putting in a lot of effort. my lower values are much closer to what would actually get implemented.

[--Q--uaint]

8 minutes ago, taiiat said:

- soooo, now it's based off of the Armor removed from the Enemy, rather than from the side of the Ability?
in that case, it's too unreliable. Shrapnel should be worth equal regardless of how it's created.

Each shrapnel piece would be equivalent to Polarize's armor-stripping. Crush would just produce an appropriate number of shrapnel pieces when it removed armor.

The amount of shrapnel created is dependent on the enemy, but it always has been; the strength of the shrapnel is constant for a given Mag build.

9 minutes ago, taiiat said:

- your solution is the more complicated one, because you're creating an Armor value, and then creating a Damage Reduction Percentage from it. i'm creating just a Damage Reduction Percentage. i'm skipping the middle man.

You are correct that the armor calculation is more complicated; however, it ends up being more easily communicated to the player. Players know how armor works; your formula would require being written out for the players and/or extensive testing to determine its properties.

12 minutes ago, taiiat said:

- i prefer mine because this is a 'passive' feature. you cannot expect a huge amount from this without putting in a lot of effort. my lower values are much closer to what would actually get implemented.

That's fair, to an extent. Mag's squishiness is less acceptable than it is on other 'frames since she is power-oriented but doesn't have the higher energy capacity and lasting CC that caster-frames have. (e.g. Frost: has better CC, better damage powers, better stats. Magnetize is a good power, but it's really her only good power. This passive would really help with that.)

Atlas's passive gives you a lot without putting in hardly any effort at all, Excalibur's passive is a (decently strong) straight boost to his DPS, and Inaros's passive is both extremely low-effort and extremely helpful.
For perspective, the shrapnel giving DR is hardly a passive since it requires powers to activate. However, it gives actual utility to both her #3 and #4 (which both need it) and provides a way for her passive to synergize with her kit since Pull wouldn't be the only way to attract available shrapnel.

However, the amount of armor granted could easily be nerfed without causing much of a problem.

PS:

Spoiler

I will probably not be participating in this discussion quite as avidly in the future as I can no longer skip doing a Captcha to log in... and I hate captchas.

 

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Players know how armor works

only if they go to the Wiki and read the formula. so....

1 hour ago, ChronoEclipse said:

doesn't have the higher energy capacity and lasting CC that caster-frames have.

Atlas's passive gives you a lot without putting in hardly any effort at all, Excalibur's passive is a (decently strong) straight boost to his DPS, and Inaros's passive is both extremely low-effort and extremely helpful.

problems to be solved directly, rather than compensated for in some strange way. Mag plays like a Caster, so should have a Caster Pool. Mag's 'CC' is out of the ordinary - Magnetize does a pretty good job of acting as CC, keeping Enemies inside the bubbles and being like a reverse Disarm. (save for some Eximus Types that can ignore the effects for some reason). Crush is certainly missing a stun so that Enemies are atleast CC'ed for a few seconds after the end of the Animation.

the only one that could be considered significant/game changing there honestly, is Inaros.

btw you shouldn't have to login constantly, you should be able to have login be remembered.

Edited July 4, 2016 by taiiat

[Archwizard]

Sorry to have let the thread fall by the wayside, been terribly busy lately. 

Not sure I have much to contribute to the Mag discussion at this time.

According to Reddit, it would appear that Steve recently confirmed that Chroma was going to get another look (although like Scott and Limbo, no details were given beyond "looking at him"). I'm curious as to what others think of for how he might end up, beyond the changes listed in the OP.

Personally I feel like his Spectral Scream needs a little something extra. I have it listed as giving an attack power buff to Effigy when it's active, but I feel that's insufficient incentive to use it when it's an impractical time to activate Effigy.

It's also been frequently suggested that Chroma himself should have some way to cycle through his current element for his abilities, similarly to how Ivara and Vauban can cycle through Quiver and Minelayer. Personally not sure what to think about this suggestion; it's practical, but there's an unfortunate irony to decoupling the energy color gimmick from his name (much as how the suggestion to decouple Nekros from his necromantic roots frequently irks me, although on a lesser magnitude). While I know many players have suggested having a tap-cast on Spectral Scream would be sufficient for this, I'm not sure it would make the toggled effect of Spectral Scream itself any more useful. Thoughts?

[BETAOPTICS]

21 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Sorry to have let the thread fall by the wayside, been terribly busy lately. 

Not sure I have much to contribute to the Mag discussion at this time.

According to Reddit, it would appear that Steve recently confirmed that Chroma was going to get another look (although like Scott and Limbo, no details were given beyond "looking at him"). I'm curious as to what others think of for how he might end up, beyond the changes listed in the OP.

Personally I feel like his Spectral Scream needs a little something extra. I have it listed as giving an attack power buff to Effigy when it's active, but I feel that's insufficient incentive to use it when it's an impractical time to activate Effigy.

It's also been frequently suggested that Chroma himself should have some way to cycle through his current element for his abilities, similarly to how Ivara and Vauban can cycle through Quiver and Minelayer. Personally not sure what to think about this suggestion; it's practical, but there's an unfortunate irony to decoupling the energy color gimmick from his name (much as how the suggestion to decouple Nekros from his necromantic roots frequently irks me, although on a lesser magnitude). While I know many players have suggested having a tap-cast on Spectral Scream would be sufficient for this, I'm not sure it would make the toggled effect of Spectral Scream itself any more useful. Thoughts?

I do have to say that Spectral Scream just feels very bland. Essentially you are detaching a turret of your first ability. It looks cool, but feels like nothing. I do believe there should be more oomph to the power, like perhaps once detached, the pelt could also gain an additional power that it casts exclusively from time to time. For a fire version it could be meteorite/fireball storm ala Hydroid Tempest Barrage style, Cold could fire a freezing pulse around it, Acid could create pools of acid similar to what Oberon can do with Hollowed Ground except without armor buffs and different shape, and perhaps Electric version could cast bolts of lighting from the sky are a frequent phase. All of the elements would have different cooldowns on those effects so meteorfall would be less frequent but more destructive, while lighting bolt would be frequent but single target.

All of those suggestion are just some quickly made up aspects that would add in to the Spectral Scream and make it seem like a really powerful ability and not just some additional turret that adds very little of actual power aside from the initial scream and then your 1st ability. Right now using that pelt just does not feel very exiting overall, which is a pretty common problem with Chroma in general.

[taiiat]

if Chroma could change Elemental at any time during a Mission, he'd go from being 'useful' to 'excellent'. Fire to Heal himself, Ice for a little bit more durability when things get hairy [and to apply Ice Status to things], electricity to Kill things [and give instant Shield bonus to help Vex Armor], Toxin....... if he's using a really slow Weapon? maybe also for Nullifiers.

and it makes complete sense to be able to do this since the theme is Elementals... and one of these on it's own while useful, on it's own doesn't make Chroma an incredible choice for a Player Slot in a group. because he still needs Augment bonuses or other Players to support all of the things he has basically none of (everything that his current Elemental doesn't provide).

 

as i've mentioned before, Spectral Scream absolutely must not reduce your mobility. because it's not effective enough to justify doing so. and the solution isn't just to like, octuplet it's Damage, Scott.
and i hate that it functions as a Continuous Weapon, because that makes it's Status capability poop - but Status is the first thing i'd look to for increasing it's usefulness. either way its Status should be higher, to put on a better show and to actually do more.

Edited July 16, 2016 by taiiat

[BETAOPTICS]

Just now, taiiat said:

if Chroma could change Elemental at any time during a Mission, he'd go from being 'useful' to 'excellent'. Fire to Heal himself, Ice for a little bit more durability when things get hairy, electricity to Kill things, Toxin....... if he's using a really slow Weapon? maybe also for Nullifiers.

and it makes complete sense to be able to do this since the theme is Elementals... and one of these on it's own while useful, on it's own doesn't make Chroma an incredible choice for a Player Slot in a group. because he still needs Augment bonuses or other Players to support all of the things he has basically none of (everything that his current Elemental doesn't provide).

 

as i've mentioned before, Spectral Scream absolutely must not reduce your mobility. because it's not effective enough to justify doing so. and the solution isn't just to like, octuplet it's Damage, Scott.
and i hate that it functions as a Continuous Weapon, because that makes it's Status capability poop - but Status is the first thing i'd look to for increasing it's usefulness. either way its Status should be higher, to put on a better show and to actually do more.

To be fair taiiat, that would be awesome and you sold this idea for me. I remember when I first heard him that this would be some kind of elementalist Warframe that had crazy adaptability unmatched by any other Warframe. Complex perhaps, but once mastered it would have been extremely powerful.

[Aquasurge]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

either way its Status should be higher, to put on a better show and to actually do more.

well, recently i have been putting together a thread to increase the effectiveness of status......

[taiiat]

33 minutes ago, Aquasurge said:

well, recently i have been putting together a thread to increase the effectiveness of status......

Status is useful, the primary problem is how often Continuous Weapons can apply them - which is very inoften compared to any other Weapon Type.

that's the problem with Spectral Scream in terms of Status, not the Status Effects themselves.

[Aquasurge]

5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Status is useful, the primary problem is how often Continuous Weapons can apply them - which is very inoften compared to any other Weapon Type.

that's the problem with Spectral Scream in terms of Status, not the Status Effects themselves.

thanks for the pointer.

[Archwizard]

For Chroma, there's two different ways to deal with the element swapping:
1) Swapping elements while abilities are active will automatically alter their effects to match their new elements, or automatically cancel any active effects except Vex Armor. (So my active Heat Effigy will automatically become a Toxin Effigy and my active Heat Ward will automatically become a Toxin Ward as I swap from Heat to Toxin.)
2) Abilities will retain whatever element they had upon being cast even if their element swaps, until canceled or their duration ends. (This allows combinations based on cast-times, such as wearing an Electric Ward and spraying a Toxic Scream with a Heat Effigy in the background.)

For Spectral Scream in particular, aside from giving it a 100% status chance per tick, I have 3 separate ideas:
1) Igniting your Effigy with Spectral Scream will cause its attacks to combine elements; requires option 2 above.
2) When Effigy is active, Spectral Scream becomes Leap: Chroma jumps to the targeted location, dealing elemental damage on impact in a radius. (If his passive is to use his wings to increase his mobility, he should have supplemented mobility and output when Effigy's active to supplement the loss of his wings and push him fully into "assault mode". Plus it would be an homage to Endrian's design.)
3) When Effigy is active, Spectral Scream becomes Ride: Chroma jumps to the active Effigy (regardless of distance) and mounts it, controlling its attacks and flight for an increased cost. (Dragon riding, man. Although I admit I'd have to grasp at straws to say this is anything more than aesthetically awesome.)
--> Alternately, permanently change Spectral Scream to Leap, and cause it to become Ride when Effigy is active.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Archwizard

[Sajochi]

Read the quotes, it was silly of me to suggest anything here. please delete this post.

Edited July 18, 2016 by CrazyCortex

[Archwizard]

Main gripes:

17 hours ago, CrazyCortex said:

I suggested have Effigy act as a source for Spectral Scream when Chroma is within his ult's attack range (there would be a visual indicator.) This would allow for more control over Effigy in terms of attacking, especially during missions where you would need it to hit priority targets. Also, ticks/sec should be affected by Power Duration.

Effigy already acts as a source for Spectral Scream, just inconsistently. Not sure how increasing the effective cost by 50% for maybe 10% more control is much of an improvement (especially since I presume the Effigy's more powerful radial attacks would be shut off while Screaming).

17 hours ago, CrazyCortex said:

Someone suggested on my thread that Effigy should be movable. This would work when Effigy is out, holding the cast key allows the player to move him to a new position, whether it be considered a recast (acts like you first cast Effigy) or having Effigy physically move to your targeted point. This can open a wide range of possibilities with using Effigy, even on the more mobile missions where you typically wouldn't cast it due to the current limitations.

That's a suggestion I don't really get; if the Effigy is still stationary except when you hold the button, why waste the energy cost on travel time, when you can just recast the effect to reposition it instantly?

Edited July 18, 2016 by Archwizard

[RunningTree3]

On 17/07/2016 at 4:19 PM, Archwizard said:

3) When Effigy is active, Spectral Scream becomes Ride: Chroma jumps to the active Effigy (regardless of distance) and mounts it, controlling its attacks and flight for an increased cost. (Dragon riding, man. Although I admit I'd have to grasp at straws to say this is anything more than aesthetically awesome.)

:0

Well, ala Volt, why not just have it be 'X' to mount/dismount Effigy. Secondaries only. Other abilities usable (second turret with Spectral Scream!) Moving around drains extra energy.

[taiiat]

6 minutes ago, RunningTree3 said:

Secondaries only.

oh no, i've been FORCED to use my superior Gun!

the horror!

[Aquasurge]

51 minutes ago, RunningTree3 said:

:0

Well, ala Volt, why not just have it be 'X' to mount/dismount Effigy. Secondaries only. Other abilities usable (second turret with Spectral Scream!) Moving around drains extra energy.

oh no, we don't need anything that restrictive in warframe ever again - it's horrifiying

[RunningTree3]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

oh no, i've been FORCED to use my superior Gun!

the horror!

 

3 hours ago, Aquasurge said:

oh no, we don't need anything that restrictive in warframe ever again - it's horrifiying

 

I really do not get how any of this is feedback. Is the suggestion a restrictive horror or is it not a horror?

I am done offering any thoughts here any more.

[Gurpgork]

2 hours ago, RunningTree3 said:

I really do not get how any of this is feedback. Is the suggestion a restrictive horror or is it not a horror?

If I'm not mistaken, @taiiat was being sarcastic while @Aquasurge was not. 

To a certain extent, I agree with both of them. While it is annoying to be restricted to only one weapon, most secondaries end up having more DPS than most primaries anyway, so it's not much of a restriction in the end. _{Unless you just spam Tonkor.}

Edited July 18, 2016 by Gurpgork

[taiiat]

absolutely. Weapon restrictions are a joke, because they restrict you to your superior Gun, making it pointless.

we should remove all of them. all. they stopped being effective a long time ago, about midway through the current Mods system. which is years ago.
someone in Design hasn't heard the memo yet though, and we still have Objectives that restrict usage to the superior Weapon.

[Archwizard]

16 hours ago, RunningTree3 said:

Well, ala Volt, why not just have it be 'X' to mount/dismount Effigy. Secondaries only. Other abilities usable (second turret with Spectral Scream!) Moving around drains extra energy.

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

absolutely. Weapon restrictions are a joke, because they restrict you to your superior Gun, making it pointless.

we should remove all of them. all. 

I mean... I was just thinking that mounting the Effigy would replace your weapon as Spectral Scream already does. Sorta like Atlas' Conclave augment.

[taiiat]

21 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

I mean... I was just thinking that mounting the Effigy would replace your weapon as Spectral Scream already does. Sorta like Atlas' Conclave augment.

replacing your Weapon(s) for a reason is different from restricting which of your Weapons you can use, especially when it's the better one in the first place.

having a good reason to replace your Weapons can have good use.

[Aquasurge]

15 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

If I'm not mistaken, @taiiat was being sarcastic while @Aquasurge was not. 

you are indeed correct.

[--Q--uaint]

On 7/4/2016 at 4:41 PM, taiiat said:

only if they go to the Wiki and read the formula. so....

Eh. If they're maximizing, they will have most likely read it already.

On 7/4/2016 at 4:41 PM, taiiat said:

problems to be solved directly, rather than compensated for in some strange way.

I agree with you to an extent, but I think it's would also be workable/reasonable to give Mag some conditional survivability that doesn't require power spam - after all, she's a starter 'frame, and the squishiest of them.

However, fixing her kit/stats directly also works.

On 7/16/2016 at 6:49 PM, taiiat said:

which is very inoften compared to any other Weapon Type

Opticor is feeling very ignored... Daikyu, too.

On 7/17/2016 at 0:19 AM, Archwizard said:

For Chroma, there's two different ways to deal with the element swapping:
1) Swapping elements while abilities are active will automatically alter their effects to match their new elements, or automatically cancel any active effects except Vex Armor. (So my active Heat Effigy will automatically become a Toxin Effigy and my active Heat Ward will automatically become a Toxin Ward as I swap from Heat to Toxin.)
2) Abilities will retain whatever element they had upon being cast even if their element swaps, until canceled or their duration ends. (This allows combinations based on cast-times, such as wearing an Electric Ward and spraying a Toxic Scream with a Heat Effigy in the background.)

I definitely like option 2 for element swapping. It allows for much deeper gameplay IMO. I also think the element swap should be on Elemental Ward as a hold-cast.

On 7/17/2016 at 0:19 AM, Archwizard said:

For Spectral Scream in particular, aside from giving it a 100% status chance per tick, I have 3 separate ideas:
1) Igniting your Effigy with Spectral Scream will cause its attacks to combine elements; requires option 2 above

I really like this suggested mechanic.

IMO, Spectral Scream should have 100% status chance, reduced energy drain, perhaps a buff to its AoE, and a bit more character/CC with each element:
Fire would leave burning patches on the ground. It's a well-established effect, and would compound its CC potential nicely.
Toxin would leave oil slicks on the ground - enemies entering those areas would fall down or stagger. This complements its stacking DoTs with a little CC if you want.
Cold would leave the cold patches on the ground, compounding its cold proc CC.
Electric would gradually "charge" enemies, causing them to proc electric every so often depending on how much "charge" they had.

All of these effects would scale with duration.
 

Spoiler

 

Fire now is hard CC/area denial.
Cold is strong soft CC.
Electric is the best DPS vs crowds, while having some hard CC with a intermittent/lasting component.
Toxic is strongest DPS vs single targets, with a small little helping of hard CC.

I like the idea of one or more having a Radiation-proc style effect, but I dunno which - Toxic could be mind-affecting drugs and Electric could cause violent/dangerous spasms.

 

On 7/18/2016 at 6:07 PM, Archwizard said:

I mean... I was just thinking that mounting the Effigy would replace your weapon as Spectral Scream already does. Sorta like Atlas' Conclave augment

Yes. I like this. Sacrifice your own mobility (Or not? ^{_{Not at all sure if/how much mounted Effigy should be able to move. With Titania coming out, I think it'd be really cool to just treat it like Archwing, but then that's her shtick so w/e.}}) for a bit of firepower and the ability to control your Effigy's semi-random attacks.

Pressing 4 should do the Effigy's radial CC roar, melee/quickmelee would do the AoE damage attack, and the fire button should be breath.

The AoE damage attack should work like a melee weapon, and benefit from melee mods, while the breath should benefit from primary weapon mods.

Edited July 20, 2016 by ChronoEclipse
I am a crazy person

[taiiat]

13 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Opticor is feeling very left out...

Opticor isn't a Status Weapon in the first place, so that's okay.

 

i am quite okay with Sprectral Scream leaving ground effects based on Elemental.
normally i am for tap to switch and hold to use, however, with how not constantly or emergency you expect to be swapping Elementals, Hold for that one is probably fine.