Petition To Divorce Channeling/focus From Energy Use.

[Mak_Gohae]

I know this was done to stop the endless charge attack barrage everyone goes on but using energy is not the way to limiting it. You are supposed to use a combination of your weapons and abilities to take down your enemies and with this what you have done is just cut down on the choices because now you have to think when you can use your energy for focus and when are you going to use your energy for abilities.

 

The best thing to do it to tie the focus to stamina cause it just makes perfect sense. If the stamina build is the build that works better for melee then why not actually put all that stamina to use?

 

 

Edited April 6, 2014 by Mak_Gohae

[Seanjuju]

Nah its cool.

[Sni7ch]

No. You have not tried it yet. So you have no idea if it should be changed. 

[BrotherIcarus]

Makes perfect sense to me linking you power and melee for more powerful attacks.

[Agent_of_Change]

Removing charge attack will create new diversity in the new melee system.  your combos will give you increased damage, your focus energy will give you increased damage to your attacks. 

 

It was done for the sake of dynamism and still maintains a single button system along with a requirement you equip your melee weapon to take full advantage of it.

 

I cannot fault them for it, and in fact I applaud the change quite heartily.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Agent_of_Change

[Damageplay]

what you have done is just cut down on the choices because now you have to think when you can use what.

 

They want us to "think"? WHAT EVEN IS THIS?

[7grims]

This is what I understood, a charge attack uses stamina, just like any other attack, combo, and even parry.

 

A focus attacks uses energy, so you have to activate the focus mode, which i think you can do either fast attacks or charged attacks when in that mode.

 

It deals more damage, meaning its like using your frame ability, hence why it uses energy.

[se05239]

Let the update drop before trying to improve it, okay?

[Mak_Gohae]

No. You have not tried it yet. So you have no idea if it should be changed. 

 

How does trying it out change the fact that if you want more damage it cost energy?

 

Removing charge attack will create new diversity in the new melee system.  your combos will give you increased damage, your focus energy will give you increased damage to your attacks. 

 

It was done for the sake of dynamism and still maintains a single button system along with a requirement you equip your melee weapon to take full advantage of it.

 

I cannot fault them for it, and in fact I applaud the change quite heartily.

 

How does it create diversity when you it limits what you can do based on the amount of energy you have?

All this did  is move form the charge attack chains to combo chains that once in a while you may add some bonus damage.

 

They want us to "think"? WHAT EVEN IS THIS?

 

Actually this hurts the people that think more than anyone else.

Most people always equip flow and streamline and just press four again and again and dont even pay attention to energy to start because of the mods.

I

dont equip flow and streamline all the time so i actually have to think about when to use an attack, how many times i can use it, etc, etc.

Hek, i dont even equip my fourth half of the time. The last two frames i leveled,  valk and Zephyr, do not have their fourth on. I use power combinations based on the energy i have and with this if i want to use focus i have to throw this play style out the window and join the masses equipping focus and streamline so i can have a cushion.

 

 

 

This is what I understood, a charge attack uses stamina, just like any other attack, combo, and even parry.

 

A focus attacks uses energy, so you have to activate the focus mode, which i think you can do either fast attacks or charged attacks when in that mode.

 

It deals more damage, meaning its like using your frame ability, hence why it uses energy.

 

What was said, which you can watch on the stream now on twitch, is that there is no charge attack any more. The only weapon that kept it's charge attack was the glaive. The UI showing the combos doesnt even show a charge attack move.

[V0LK]

Pretty much gamechanger for me. If I will not be able lo QUICKLY slash enemy in half and will be forced into hitting him a dozen time with E, I go find another game.

 

Melee 2.0 should complement existing melee, not ruining the flow.

[Agent_of_Change]

How does it create diversity when you it limits what you can do based on the amount of energy you have?

All this did  is move form the charge attack chains to combo chains that once in a while you may add some bonus damage.

 

 You are right it doesn't create diversity, it forces  it.  Which is the way it should be, at least you now need to chain attack, get combos, and use energy to really do your damage, it's a positive change.

 

You can't just spam, that one power attack anymore and somehow i just can't bring myself to feel the least bit bad about it.

[Mak_Gohae]

 You are right it doesn't create diversity, it forces  it.  Which is the way it should be, at least you now need to chain attack, get combos, and use energy to really do your damage, it's a positive change.

 

You can't just spam, that one power attack anymore and somehow i just can't bring myself to feel the least bit bad about it.

 

There is no change, replacing the charge chains with combo chains is just that, replacing one with another.  And since the masses will always take the path of least resistance, once the best combo is figured out the rest will be left aside. And i dont think the masses will go for spending energy on damaging a few enemies in front of view vs spending energy to kill several enemies in different ways. 

 

And, by the way, i would be fine with the system if they moved from energy to stamina. Like i said in my first post, i understand why this was done but i dont like that it uses energy because this is just going to hurt the people that dont conform to the norm. In fact, it seems like this system was done specifically to use up energy for the people that have the flow and streamline mods on all their builds. And this, of course, is now going to affect more harshly the people that dont use those normally.

 

Stamina, even after all it changes, is STILL just something there that has no use. I dont see why they didnt link it to this in the first place. 

[Volt_Cruelerz]

It did strike me as a bit odd as well.  From a lore perspective, I get it, but unless you're using Energy Siphon, you can't do heavy melee anymore which is a problem...

 

Oh well...  Energy needs an overhaul anyways...

[SquirmyBurrito]

The only problem I see is that it will further break the QT+R build.

Edited April 4, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Sni7ch]

How does trying it out change the fact that if you want more damage it cost energy?

 

People may like the trade off. I like the trade off. You hate the trade off. When it goes live next week, people may like it or they may not. It matters on the player base, not one loud person. 

[Blatantfool]

 They mentioned the energy usage was something around the neighborhood of 5 energy. That isn't completely horrible. I'd imagine using mods to add new effects will make it cost more than that, which makes a little sense.

 

 Gonna have to wait see how it plays to find out whether or not I agree with you on this Mak. I can't really make up my mind how I feel about it with the information I have.

[Mak_Gohae]

 They mentioned the energy usage was something around the neighborhood of 5 energy. That isn't completely horrible. I'd imagine using mods to add new effects will make it cost more than that, which makes a little sense.

 

 Gonna have to wait see how it plays to find out whether or not I agree with you on this Mak. I can't really make up my mind how I feel about it with the information I have.

 

5 energy per hit builds up and can end up being costly for people that dont go with Flow or ES all the time.

I think that this is just going to split game play rather than bringing in another option.

[Sni7ch]

5 energy per hit builds up and can end up being costly for people that dont go with Flow or ES all the time.

I think that this is just going to split game play rather than bringing in another option.

 

I believe you are forgetting a major addition to Melee 2.0. Melee weapons across the board are getting buffed. Up until this point makes, melee was basically only good for charge attacks. Normal attacks were useless. Also, the whole system is being rewritten. Five points of energy in the current system would be bad, but in this new system it could be totally fine. Going back to my previous point, we do not know how it would behave as a whole. We just know a small section. So hold judgement until you use it. 

[SquirmyBurrito]

I believe you are forgetting a major addition to Melee 2.0. Melee weapons across the board are getting buffed. Up until this point makes, melee was basically only good for charge attacks. Normal attacks were useless. Also, the whole system is being rewritten. Five points of energy in the current system would be bad, but in this new system it could be totally fine. Going back to my previous point, we do not know how it would behave as a whole. We just know a small section. So hold judgement until you use it. 

 

You're (strangely) assuming that energy is getting changed. I don't remember them ever mentioning this. With the current system the absolute most you could attack (assuming maxed flow so energy pool of 450) is 90 times before running out of energy. With a team full of energy siphons to maintain a consistent barrage of attacks you'd have to limit yourself to one attack every ~2 seconds (I rounded down). The combo system obviously doesn't work this way given what we were shown so you'd have to take extended breaks between combos to make up for the lost energy (assuming you were channeling for every hit).

Edited April 5, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Sni7ch]

You're (strangely) assuming that energy is getting changed. I don't remember them ever mentioning this. With the current system the absolute most you could attack (assuming maxed flow so energy pool of 450) is 90 times before running out of energy. With a team full of energy siphons to maintain a consistent barrage of attacks you'd have to limit yourself to one attack every ~2 seconds (I rounded down). The combo system obviously doesn't work this way given what we were shown so you'd have to take extended breaks between combos to make up for the lost energy (assuming you were channeling for every hit).

 

I believe you are referring to "Five points of energy in the current system would be bad, but in this new system it could be totally fine." I was not talking about energy being changed I was still referring to the melee. Sorry for the mix-up. 

 

Also, the charge attack we know is getting removed and is replaced by the channeling that was talking about in the video today and it is not normal attacks, it is a charge. So you could use charge attacks but you do not have to since the melee system is getting an interesting buff. An Excalibur at level 0 has 100 energy. That is 20 charge attacks. At level 30 with 300 energy is 60 charge attacks. Combos and normal attacks in the melee stance do not use energy. It is just the channeling attacks. 

 

It really just sounds like everyone is assuming every melee attack is super underpowered and the only way to use melee is by channeling attacks. If I am mistaken please correct me.

 

----------

This is what the wiki has about this topic: 

Melee Channel: Fire button becomes "Channeling" to power up and create openings for finishers. Channeling while blocking. Mods to affect this; lifesteal while channel, status chance/fire rate increase, damage increase. Every hit with channeling is 5 Energy by default.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Sni7ch

[SquirmyBurrito]

I believe you are referring to "Five points of energy in the current system would be bad, but in this new system it could be totally fine." I was not talking about energy being changed I was still referring to the melee. Sorry for the mix-up. 

 

Also, the charge attack we know is getting removed and is replaced by the channeling that was talking about in the video today and it is not normal attacks, it is a charge. So you could use charge attacks but you do not have to since the melee system is getting an interesting buff. An Excalibur at level 0 has 100 energy. That is 20 charge attacks. At level 30 with 300 energy is 60 charge attacks. Combos and normal attacks in the melee stance do not use energy. It is just the channeling attacks. 

 

It really just sounds like everyone is assuming every melee attack is super underpowered and the only way to use melee is by channeling attacks. If I am mistaken please correct me.

 

----------

This is what the wiki has about this topic: 

Melee Channel: Fire button becomes "Channeling" to power up and create openings for finishers. Channeling while blocking. Mods to affect this; lifesteal while channel, status chance/fire rate increase, damage increase. Every hit with channeling is 5 Energy by default.

 

Oh okay, sorry about that rant. 

 

The video made channeling look like a toggleable buff. Hopefully charge mods will be converted into mods that control how large that buff is and other stuff that I can't think of right now because my creativity is being channeled into something else.

[Mak_Gohae]

I believe you are forgetting a major addition to Melee 2.0. Melee weapons across the board are getting buffed. Up until this point makes, melee was basically only good for charge attacks. Normal attacks were useless. Also, the whole system is being rewritten. Five points of energy in the current system would be bad, but in this new system it could be totally fine. Going back to my previous point, we do not know how it would behave as a whole. We just know a small section. So hold judgement until you use it. 

 

The stream promoted long combos, steve even said that the long combo chains is what is used as a solution against higher ranked enemies, on top of that there is a combo count thing that, again, steve was hyping about how high it could go. All of that looks to equal quick burning of energy. With the amount of enemies this game throws and the energy use for powers to take those huge numbers, it doesnt look like there is going to be energy for both focus and powers. You are going to have to choose between focus or powers, you are not going to constantly be able to use both unless you end up getting tied to Flow, Streamline, and Energy Syphon.

 

This focus thing looks like the custom combo system from Street Fighter Alpha 2 where you could use you super bar to go into a hyper mode for more damage. But since it used your super bar you could not perform your super moves.

 

 

Hek, DE even stole the glowing blue thing!

Edited April 5, 2014 by Mak_Gohae

[Sni7ch]

Oh okay, sorry about that rant. 

 

The video made channeling look like a toggleable buff. Hopefully charge mods will be converted into mods that control how large that buff is and other stuff that I can't think of right now because my creativity is being channeled into something else.

 

It is okay. There still is alot we do not know. All we got was a demo video today. We will know more in a few days. 

[Sni7ch]

The stream promoted long combos, steve even said that the long combo chains is what is used as a solution against higher ranked enemies, on top of that there is a combo count thing that, again, steve was hyping about how high it could go. All of that looks to equal quick burning of energy. With the amount of enemies this game throws and the energy use for powers to take those huge numbers, it doesnt look like there is going to be energy for both focus and powers. You are going to have to choose between focus or powers, you are not going to constantly be able to use both unless you end up getting tied to Flow, Streamline, and Energy Syphon.

 

I believe you are under the impression that you would want to use the charge/channel for every attack. It looks like DE wanted to break that habit. Mind you, we do not know the damage boost from the channeling. We do not have all of the information. Simple as that. The channeling could be a better investment than using the 25 energy one would normally use. 

 

To you point about the "not having enough energy without x mods," using Excalibur as a example he as 100 energy at level 0 and 300 energy at 30. So you could charge 20 or 60 times respectfully. Plus the extra effects (lifesteal, status chance/fire rate increase, damage increase), channeling is not just a waste of energy. It is just one more tool. A cheap warframe ability to use that you can customize. 

[Monolake]

5 energy per what... 1 hit? entire combo? for how much damage increase? 

 

cant judge till you know the numbers, so lets see and test it first

 

no more free 100k damage on gelatine for you!

Edited April 5, 2014 by Monolake