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Why Use Vortex?


Sh1n3y
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Why use Vortex when you can use Bastille? It lasts a LOT longer, covers more area, and costs less! I know a lot of people use Vortex for infested missions, but I don't see the point when you can just use Bastille. With Blind Rage (7/10) and Intensify (5/5), Bastille can hold 24 targets. Quite a lot actually. Plus, if you space them out so that they aren't touching each-other, you can cast another one.

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Vortex can suck in potentialy infinite amount of enemies, puts them all in one spot, so it's easier to kill them with weapons, Vortex damages enemies, and if they're low-mid level it just anihilates them, it gathers all of the loot in one place...

 

Bastille is good to secure larger areas, but nothing can beat Vortex in securing the choke points.

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Vortex can suck in potentialy infinite amount of enemies, puts them all in one spot, so it's easier to kill them with weapons, Vortex damages enemies, and if they're low-mid level it just anihilates them, it gathers all of the loot in one place...

 

Bastille is good to secure larger areas, but nothing can beat Vortex in securing the choke points.

 

ill talk about it with my kraken

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Gas procs hit a small AOE, and have a chance to go off per target. 20 guys on top of eachother and you're spraying with Embolist or firing a shotgun with punch-through on it... Dunno what kind of damage they do though or how it scales. Just food for thought.

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Vortex holds more enemies(infinite)
Vortex holds them in one place

Vortex+weapons with punch-through= less ammo spent/more damage out

Vortex keeps loot in one neat location

 

When going you are going against infested (or have a radial disarm Loki on your team) there is no reason to use any of Booben's other abilities.

Edited by SquirmyBurrito
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Why use Bastille then? ;) lol. jk. It seems to me that Bastille is obviously best vs Corpus and Grineer. But vs infested, Bastille still seems better in the lower waves of defense until 1, maybe 2 Bastille aren't cutting it anymore. 

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No Vortex is best. I dont even equip bastille. Aside from no cap on enemies, having them in one spot, doing DMG, accenting melee 2.0, and loot vaccuum, italso Works Well in conjunction with bounce.

Bounce not high enough? Toss a Vortex up there for xtra height. Need to go farther? Copter through Vortex. Need to revive a guy? Say fk it and toss bounce on a bleeding out Team member.

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ill talk about it with my kraken

In terms of Vauban abilities Vortex is the best. In terms of all frames, is second best - Release The Kraken is definitely the best ability for the purpose of securing the choke points :P

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it kinda depends whats going on

 

if you have people with AOE weapons then Vortex has the bonus of pulling them all into one spot for maximum effect

People using Bows, Synapse... aimed weapons, Headshots mean more, so Bastille is a better choice

also if your with players who refuse to leave the ground then runnign vortex and Bastille leaves players with a 100% safe spot to...  linger.

Both skills have a use.

 

 

 

on a side note

 

"With Blind Rage (7/10)"  is a bad idea, because of the energy cost increase, you will hold more targets simply running 2 Bastille.

2x Bastille hold 32 mobs and cost less.

 

for comparison basic build - http://goo.gl/j8sYqy 2x Bastille = 36 energy holds 32 targets

then add in rank 7 blind rage - http://goo.gl/E7yfHT 1x Bastille = 48 energy only holds 24 targets

you can push costs down to 37 - http://goo.gl/yJbpvb but you loose a little duration and still only hold 24 targets

and your vortex / tesla is more expensive.

 

on almost every frame (excluding mag) cast Twice beats Blind rage, its a poor mod past +27% cost

hope this helps your builds.

Edited by Tatersail
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it kinda depends whats going on

 

if you have people with AOE weapons then Vortex has the bonus of pulling them all into one spot for maximum effect

People using Bows, Synapse... aimed weapons, Headshots mean more, so Bastille is a better choice

also if your with players who refuse to leave the ground then runnign vortex and Bastille leaves players with a 100% safe spot to...  linger.

Both skills have a use.

 

 

 

on a side note

 

"With Blind Rage (7/10)"  is a bad idea, because of the energy cost increase, you will hold more targets simply running 2 Bastille.

2x Bastille hold 32 mobs and cost less.

 

for comparison basic build - http://goo.gl/j8sYqy 2x Bastille = 36 energy holds 32 targets

then add in rank 7 blind rage - http://goo.gl/E7yfHT 1x Bastille = 48 energy only holds 24 targets

you can push costs down to 37 - http://goo.gl/yJbpvb but you loose a little duration and still only hold 24 targets

and your vortex / tesla is more expensive.

 

on almost every frame (excluding mag) cast Twice beats Blind rage, its a poor mod past +27% cost

hope this helps your builds.

Thanks for your builds. I actually made this basic build earlier as it only uses 1 forma and keeps 3 of his skills equipped. http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Vauban/t_30_13401120013_1-7-6-4-4-5-6-6-5-8-10-5-13-1-3-14-3-5-49-2-6-55-8-5-120-0-3-122-5-3-123-9-3_120-2-13-7-49-6-14-9-4-11-122-5-6-6-1-10-55-11-123-7-8-14_56/en/1-0-20/3541/

 

As for your last comment about it being almost always pointless to use Blind Rage, yeah I somewhat agree. Often it's better to cast twice if all you can acheive is 50% efficiency. If you can get 60-65% with helmets though, it can be worth it. Also, it depends on the type of skill it is you're casting, what other skills you use on that character, and what level the enemies are. For instance, pure damage skills on warframes where this is the main skill you're using and the enemies will die in one hit or less with rank 7/10 Blind Rage. In that case, I think Blind Rage is good. When the warframe has other useful skills, or it will take more than one Blind Rage cast to kill the enemy, then it's best to not use Blind Rage and keep your 75% efficiency. 

 

So frames where it's probably ok to use Blind Rage IMO:

1. Mag: because of the 100% shield drain

2. Saryn: if Miasma isn't killing them in one shot anymore, use a blind rage. Eventually that won't kill them in one shot, so you'll have to take it off to cast twice. So, pretty specific.

3. Banshee: if you're mainly using Sonar and running long missions where ammo conservation is key. She has a 10% efficiency helmet making cost effectiveness about equal. 1000% damage with Blind Rage is a ton though. Not really necessary on most missions. 650% is still a lot and should suffice.

 

TLDR: Yes, in general Mag is the only frame where Blind Rage is a good idea. It's VERY specific cases that allow some of the other frames to be viable with Blind Rage. So, thanks for pointing that out. Hadn't fully realized that.

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Banshee, Ember, Frost, Mag, Nova (MP midlevel), Rhino, Trinity (EV Battery), Valkyr, Vauban, Volt, and Zephyr (tornado damage) can all utilize high ranked BR's more effectively than R3s, due to having an ability that can't be stacked/spammed.

 

BR on Vaub is only good when using a max range Bastille against ranged enemies. The build I use for Grineer/Corpus CC looks something like this: http://goo.gl/cgklJM or http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Vauban/t_30_13003420043_1-5-10-2-9-10-4-8-5-5-3-5-6-7-5-8-10-5-12-6-4-13-1-3-54-4-10-55-2-2-122-0-3_122-5-13-7-55-8-5-9-54-7-1-7-12-5-6-11-4-9-2-6-8-14_56/en/1-0-20/326/

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Banshee, Ember, Frost, Mag, Nova (MP midlevel), Rhino, Trinity (EV Battery), Valkyr, Vauban, Volt, and Zephyr (tornado damage) can all utilize high ranked BR's more effectively than R3s, due to having an ability that can't be stacked/spammed.

 

BR on Vaub is only good when using a max range Bastille against ranged enemies. The build I use for Grineer/Corpus CC looks something like this: http://goo.gl/cgklJM or http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Vauban/t_30_13003420043_1-5-10-2-9-10-4-8-5-5-3-5-6-7-5-8-10-5-12-6-4-13-1-3-54-4-10-55-2-2-122-0-3_122-5-13-7-55-8-5-9-54-7-1-7-12-5-6-11-4-9-2-6-8-14_56/en/1-0-20/326/

Ugh. Very confused right now. I'll have to put more time into this later. 

 

However, your builds use a bunch of forma. And all you guys are only using Bastille after MANY people have said how great Vortex is. It appears that you are only running with Bastille, telling me you don't think Vortex is that great in comparison. Or maybe these are for Grineer and Corpus, not Infested. 

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Banshee, Ember, Frost, Mag, Nova (MP midlevel), Rhino, Trinity (EV Battery), Valkyr, Vauban, Volt, and Zephyr (tornado damage) can all utilize high ranked BR's more effectively than R3s, due to having an ability that can't be stacked/spammed.

 

Don't know if I agree on this, but may take some time to debate if you're up to it. I'm arguing that 70-75% efficiency without the boosted strength from a rank 4+ BR is better than <60% efficiency with a rank 4+ BR. My reason is this:

1. If your 100 energy ability does 100 damage, that's 1 damage per 1 energy.

2. With 75% efficiency and 100 damage, that's 4 damage per 1 energy.

3. With 50% efficiency and 172 damage (achieved with rank 7 BR), thats 3.44 damage per 1 energy.

So, from a purely efficiency standpoint, a rank 3 or less BR makes more sense.

 

For damage skills (Saryn, Oberon): If one non-BR cast doesn't kill the enemy, then it might be better to use BR, but that's a fine balance as eventually you'll reach the point where 1 BR cast doesn't kill the enemy. Then 2 non-BR casts makes more sense.

 

As far as other skills that work a little differently than pure damage and aren't spammable, we'll probably need to discuss them individually:

1. Banshee: Sonar isn't spammable. A rank 7 BR with Intensify gives 1010% damage multiplier while just Intensify gives 650%. In most cases I'm going to assume 650% is enough. But really high level, long survivals/defense, adding that high rank BR is probably good. 

2. Ember: World on Fire isn't spammable, but it's a pure damage skill, so it fits into the above category for me. 

3. Frost: Not aware of what skill isn't spammable. 

4. Mag: Definitely agree that rank 7 BR is great on her as it reduces 100% enemy shields and restores 100% of allies. 

5. Nova: Don't understand what you mean by mid-level MP. I think it still works in the same way for me as other damaging skills. There might be that pocket where it's better to have BR, but it's very specific. Also, isn't MP spammable? 

6. Rhino: Rhino stomp and Iron Skin are both not spammable in the usual sense. I still consider Iron Skin spammable because as soon as it runs out, you can use it again. Rhino Stomp's general use at higher levels is for CC. So although not spammable, whatever I can't kill with my guns while they are stomped, I'd just stomp again usually, because it fits into that similar category as Saryn and Oberon. 

7. Trinity: Never considered this as EV is pretty secondary normally to Trinity's task of keeping people alive and I'd like to keep Blessing as cheap and long as possible which doesn't work very well with EV. Even if your focus was EV though, it's still not better. Maybe you'll get 55 energy per pulse for 25 energy spent, but you'll get 33 energy per pulse for 12.5 energy without the BR. So I could cast twice for the same energy cost and get 66 energy per pulse back. The only way I would agree is if the team was super desperate for energy immediately.

8. Valkyr: Warcry and Hysteria both aren't spammable I think. It's really hard for me to wrap my head around doing a BR build with Valkyr because I think duration is key her 

9. Vauban: See Tatersail his post above makes sense to me why Vauban isn't good with BR. Even for ranged units. However with ranged units, it begins to make a little more sense to use Overextended and BR, but still. Maybe a matter of opinion.

10. Volt: Have no experience with Volt. 

11. Zephyr: Tornado is more of a CC than damage. Still if I needed it it kill, it falls under the same category as Saryn or Oberon.

 

I'd love to hear why exactly you think some of these non-spammable skills are better with high BR and less efficiency. My opinion is not set in stone. This is just the way I see it currently.

 

Interesting builds for certain situations like wide open areas, but for most situations I think I prefer this. It has a long duration and 75% efficiency. I think it will work well for infested as well as ranged units. http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Vauban/t_30_13401120013_1-3-6-4-4-5-5-7-4-8-10-5-13-1-3-14-6-5-49-2-6-55-8-4-120-0-3-122-5-3-123-9-3_120-2-13-7-49-6-1-10-4-11-122-5-14-5-5-8-55-10-123-7-8-14_56/en/1-0-20/3541/0

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Why use Bastille then? ;) lol. jk. It seems to me that Bastille is obviously best vs Corpus and Grineer. But vs infested, Bastille still seems better in the lower waves of defense until 1, maybe 2 Bastille aren't cutting it anymore. 

IMHO.... Vauban doesn't have a place in high level Grineer and Corpus runs without a max range Loki spamming radial disarm. It is much better to run a tricked out Frost Prime and use the bubble because Bastille and Vortex both fail when EVERYTHING hits for 10k/shot before they are even in range of either ability. 

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I'd love to hear why exactly you think some of these non-spammable skills are better with high BR and less efficiency. My opinion is not set in stone. This is just the way I see it currently.

 

While I agree that direct damage skills are much better built for efficiency (Miasma is a prime example, the 25 energy -65% duration setup has the highest dmg/energy ratio ingame) most duration based or unstackable abilities are often better off built for damage, especially at high levels. Especially important are boosting damage modifiers to max.

 

1. Banshee: Power strength is better than duration, because you can kill faster, and that's all that's really relevant to the skill. Energy management is less of an issue if you maintain a good kill rate because of orb drops.

2. Ember: Recasting WoF is dangerous - there's a good justification to not using FE here. However, I was thinking of accelerant, for which every point of power strength is worth an extra 2.5% damage.

3. Frost: Snowglobe. The Pod/Terminal is vulnerable while recasting, and you can't stack like you could before due to needing the globe to be hit during the invulnerability window.

4. Mag we agree. Although you can drop in an OE for Corpus, +~40% PS is enough to kill them.

5. For Nova, I was talking about midlevel build where you can still use MP to kill stuff. Before that, you dont need as much strength, and after that, you kill with AMD, and MP is just a debuff, you don't need any +str at all.

6. Again, I was thinking more about the damage buff from Roar, not the active abilities. If all you're using is Stomp and IS then for sure efficiency is better.

7. Battery builds can be fun, something different than just team invulnerability. I can keep something stupid like 50 energy/second regenning in a huge area. While increasing efficiency might increase your OWN energy gain, reducing PS drastically reduces your teammates energy gain.

8. a) Warcry is increased by PS, giving increased attack speed (=dmg) and increased survivability from armor. b) Hysteria traps you into using an ability that is affected by PS, so it's critical that you boost that ability as much as you can. a)+b) synergize to a lot of damage lost if you don't use max PS

9. Vauban: Bastille can't be stacked - If I toss two bastilles on the same spot as per below, it would only hold 18 targets, not 32, as each lifted enemy would count against the enemy limit for BOTH bastilles. In addition, 36 energy is the same as 48 energy, because either way it's 2 energy orb pickups, especially relevant when using Carrier and/or no Energy Siphon aura.

for comparison basic build - http://goo.gl/j8sYqy 2x Bastille = 36 energy holds 32 targets

then add in rank 7 blind rage - http://goo.gl/E7yfHT 1x Bastille = 48 energy only holds 24 targets

 

10. Volt: Was referring to Speed/damage builds - a) Speed is increased with some power strength, may or may not want to max PS or max duration/efficiency, either one works... more importantly b) Overload gets bonus damage on the FIRST time you cast in a room with electronics, so subsequent casts deal less damage, making PS more critical to maximize the first use.

11. Agreed that Tornadoes are more commonly used for CC, but you can build them to kill in rooms with lowish ceilings. They can't be activated again until the duration is up, so they function completely differently than Saryn/Oberon, who can use their abilities over and over. Zephyr has to maximize Damage/Cast over Damage/Energy in order to maintain DPS as the ability is not spammable. A max PS build for tornadoes does something just over 500 DPS, the highest sustained dps ability in game atm. Which doesnt say much, as they're all prettymuch garbage, lol.

Edited by Darzk
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OT: This is the important part:

 

Vauban: Bastille can't be stacked - If I toss two bastilles on the same spot as per Tatersail's example, it would only hold 18 targets, not 32, as each lifted enemy would count against the enemy limit for BOTH bastilles. In addition, 36 energy is the same as 48 energy, because either way it's 2 energy orb pickups, especially relevant when using Carrier and/or no Energy Siphon aura.

 

You can always throw the Bastilles so they don't touch each other, but that really only works when using a smallish range. With Stretch+OE, a 47 meter diameter, its nearly impossible to avoid overlap.

 

Edit: Someone's telling me that they do stack now - it's been long enough since I tested it that I could see it having been changed, will test it again later tonight.

Edited by Darzk
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While I agree that direct damage skills are much better built for efficiency (Miasma is a prime example, the 25 energy -65% duration setup has the highest dmg/energy ratio ingame) most duration based or unstackable abilities are often better off built for damage, especially at high levels. Especially important are boosting damage modifiers to max.

 

Yay. Glad to get some opinionated feedback. Thanks.

 

One thing I'm noticing when I begin to tweak builds to see if I like your modding method, is that it's going to take 1-2 more forma in each build to make it possibly worth adding BR. That may not be worth it for me and many others. Also, if there are other skills with that warframe that are fairly frequently used, and those skills don't need PS, then using BR quickly loses it's appeal. Another thing I've noticed is that equipping a Rank 3 BR can be good if the slot is available. Obviously this is all opinion but this has kind of been my conclusions from your's and others feedback as well as my own testing. Bold names being BR viable, although likely specific cases.

 

1. Banshee: I still feel like 650% extra damage is sufficient for a LONG time. Only at high levels is it worth equipping BR for quicker kills and ammo efficiency. She has the Chorus Banshee helm to give her an extra 10% efficiency which can help counteract some of the efficiency loss from BR.

2. Ember: Even though it's a team buff for fire damage, I think I'd rather keep the efficiency and cast skills twice. I also don't understand why you say casting World on Fire twice is dangerous. 

3. Frost: Agreed. Stacking them is not the best and that un-globed pod during that window can be dangerous, but not if you have a good team and a Frost who is paying close attention. With a 75% efficient snow globe (12.5 energy) you can cast it TWICE for the same amount of energy as casting a 50% efficient one (25 energy). However, that said, Frost rarely has energy problems as that's kind of his main task in defense. So, I guess I could fall on either side of the fence.

4. Mag: Agreed.

5. Nova: Maybe just for ammo efficiency sake at that mid-level stuff like you're talking about. People don't like a MP spamming Nova anyhow, so might as well kaboom everything to smitherines if you're going to use it. But high and low stuff, I agree, you don't need it. 

6. Rhino: Since Rhino has multiple skills that are used often, probably not the best to use BR. 

7. Trinity: I'll try an EV build sometime for the fun of it. You're probably right that using BR with and EV build would be best for the team at large. Would probably work best with one CC warframe to keep the damage off and warframes that have great skills but are always energy poor. 

8. Valkyr: Not sure if BR is worth it for Warcry. Definitely not for Paralyze. But I can see the wisdom in it for Hysteria since you're stuck in that state and can't even use weapons. But I can't empty up a slot for it because I enjoy using all 4 abilities. Could maybe give up one slot, but that's not enough. Also since all the skills aren't very viable with BR, I'd say it's a no go.

9. Vauban: Think I'll stick with efficiency on Vuaban since I'm pretty sure Bastille can be stacked if needed.

10. Volt: Oooo... interesting. Didn't know that. So that might be worth it to use BR on Volt. 

11. Zephyr: More damage is always tempting, but Tornado isn't the only skill I use. I like using Tail Wind and Turbulence also which don't need PS. Therefore, don't think it's worth it for me.

 

Had the most trouble wrapping my head around Ember and Valkyr. Bah. I think part of all of this is preference. Also I agree that the the level of enemy that's being faught plays a role to decide whether to use BR or not. 

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So here's 2 OE Bastilles stacked. According to you, they should lift 5 enemies each, so 10 enemies lifted. Instead, only 6 enemies are lifted, and the 7th (the runner in front of the pod) is free to run in and bash on the defense objective.

 

2014-04-23_00004.jpg

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