The Beta Talk

[Valafor]

I am going to talk about Warframe as a Beta. And this is going to spark major controversy, but I am going to try and be as objective as possible. As the updates go on, Warframe is beginning to look less and less like an actual Beta and more like a full release, and like many other games is simply using the Beta Tag as a defense for a flawed game. I feel DE is not properly utilizing it's Beta Tag as even though they are claiming to be a Beta, they are so reluctant to adding changes to the game. 

 

So what can we change? Well one thing would be DE gets over their fear of breaking a warframe or a weapon because they need to realize that it can be temporary and it can be changed. Likewise, WE need to get over the fear of our favorite weapons and warframes getting broken because it is for balanced. The idea behind nerfing or buffing something is not to break the OP weapons and make them trash or to make everything as powerful as a handful of overpowered weapons because people don't want their favorite things "ruined", even if it is overshadowing everything else in its category, but rather to make everything at least somewhat viable. DE should not be afraid to S#&$ out some balances that might not work because that is the whole point. The whole point is that we slowly learn what needs to be changed, and how much we need to change it. No matter how many great threads people make with all their fancy numbers and math, they never actually tried it. It simply isn't possible. it isn't always easy to pinpoint what is wrong in the system, and even if we do find out, it might not be possible to get it perfectly balanced in one go. We need to release patches that may break the game, because as time goes on, changes will be less and less severe and slowly we will find out what works and what doesn't. 

 

Here's an example. Let's PRETEND that Excalibur is too OP, because Slash Dash is making every other ability mundane. DE suspects that the damage may be the cause for it, but they are not certain how they should nerf it. What DE would do now is that they would spend months and then force out an update that looks good on paper, but when we get into the game we realize that it clearly did not fix much. However, what DE should do is just nerf the damage with whatever number that comes to head and see how people react to it. So for instance, DE nerfs Slash Dash and it does 50% less damage and give the players, who are also beta testers may I mind you, to see what they think about it. After a week or so of people testing out the recently nerfed Slash Dash, the general consensus is that Slash Dash is now useless. So the next update they buff Slash Dash so it does 75% damage of what it did originally. After some more testing, people feel that Slash Dash is still just a bit better than most things, but not as overshadowing as it was before and now other abilities are more viable in certain situations that Slash Dash. At this point, DE can go focus on something else, or continue to tweak it. But notice that through trial and error, we can slowly reach the point where the ability becomes perfect. Let's pretend that the OP Slash Dash from our example started from 100% damage. We then nerf it to 50%, which we find is too drastic. Now DE knows that the next update has to be between 51% to 99%. If even as 75% it is still too good of an ability, DE now knows that the next change has to be between 51% and 74%, and slowly we reach the point where it will be perfectly balanced.

 

However, not everyone will agree with the ways of balancing something. Some people fear there items getting nerfed, and instead say that everything else should get buffed and therefore everyone will be happy. However, besides creating a cycle in which weapons become stronger --> enemies get buffed --> More powerful weapons are introduced --> repeat, that logic does not make sense. It takes much more times and resources to go and change 90% of weapons  rather than just change a small bunch of OP weapons. There is a metaphor I like to use regarding the "Buff everything logic". Imagine if you were trying to make a ladder. All your steps are around the same size, except for one. What do you do now? Go back and meticulously attach a piece of material to each of the steps so they will match the same length as the elongated piece? Well a sane person would just cut the elongated piece to the same size as the rest of them. If we would not use the buff everything logic in real life, why do people think it is a good idea in a video game? Because it isn't your time and resources being spent on rebalancing everything else for you? People think code is just putting and changing numbers into a computer willy nilly. However, coding is very meticulous and incredibly time consuming, as even the smallest typo can screw up everything. 

 

Will put more later. Please give me some feedback. :)

[Bobsplosion]

I am going to talk about Warframe as a Beta. And this is going to spark major controversy

 

As the updates go on, Warframe is beginning to look less and less like an actual Beta and more like a full release

Oh please.

 

Look, it's called Beta because there are tons of changes that the game has to go through constantly. Huge changes. That's it.

[CelsiusPrime]

just to use your example, balance (the buffing and nerfing of things) isn't just strictly about damage. your can buff, nerf other parts of it, like range, speed, utility, mobility etc

 

 

Edit: it's also called beta because it's not complete yet.

you think those dark sectors are considered final products?

Edited April 30, 2014 by CelsiusPrime

[Sixty5]

Sweeping balance changes can occur even during full releases.

The beta tag exists to say that the game is not yet a full release, and therefore subject to different terms and conditions. These protect both the player and developer in the event that something goes wrong.

Persistant development is a better term for the state warframe is in, but has no actual basis, unlike the beta tag.

The game will exist as beta for as long as De feel the need to keep it as such

[Senparos]

Think of it this way: if DE didn't have the beta title, we would likely not get as much stuff. Most games go that way once they exit the beta stage.

 

PS: Wow, Bobsplosion? i've seen a lot of your comments on kotaku, didn't know you played warframe

[PsychedelicSnake]

Sweeping balance changes can occur even during full releases.

The beta tag exists to say that the game is not yet a full release, and therefore subject to different terms and conditions. These protect both the player and developer in the event that something goes wrong.

Persistant development is a better term for the state warframe is in, but has no actual basis, unlike the beta tag.

The game will exist as beta for as long as De feel the need to keep it as such

This. The Beta tag isn't used as an "excuse" or anything like that. It's used as a back-up just in case people (and there will be people) try to cause a ruckus because the product is not finished.

 

If DE could get away with simply saying "Product is in a constant state of development" they would, but legally they have to say the product is a beta because of its constant development.

[Wahooo]

There are many things that continue to be beta about the game not just flawed, and depending on who you talk to the list might even be longer.

 

A story, placeholders for tilesets that need to be unique for planets and general further development.

It has been a slow process but I have a clan mate that just came back.  He played from the day of open beta for a few weeks.  He's been gone almost a year and when you compare where the game is to where it was then, you can see all of the changes, and how there are areas that are likely being worked on.

 

As far as buffs and nerfs I blame the community more than DE.  Slight changes are met with chicken little reactions and people losing their S#&$ who happened to spend plat on that weapon or frame.  They did a lot more weapon and frame tweaks in the months before Nova came out, and then with Nova they just said "you know what... we will make balance passes when they seem appropriate but we like where these are."

 

Maybe more will change, and I see the game as getting closer to release date, but I really do not agree that they are hiding behind the beta tag for a flawed game.

It is simply still in development and they have a milestone that we don't know and at that point in development beta ends.  A week, a month a year... who knows.

[AvengerGrim]

This game need balance, this game need bug fixing (a lot), this game get regular updates, as in gameplay mechanics related updates... this game need a story, this game need an endgame.

 

This game is in Beta because it is clearly not in a finished state...

[Un1337ninj4]

Isn't the exact situation you described with Excal the same as what happened to Frost? (Which I like, the more time they take looking back at those abilities the more intriguing they become, just like our li'l hints of lore seem to be evolving behind closed doors.)

 

Aside from that I totally agree.

Edited April 30, 2014 by un1337ninj4

[Bloodywing]

We don't have lore in the game yet, or very limited to say the least. Maybe when more solid lore comes, which we all know is coming, then think about full release. We all want a complete game, but right now Warframe is not complete just yet IMO.

[TheChaffeemancer]

People think code is just putting and changing numbers into a computer willy nilly. However, coding is very meticulous and incredibly time consuming, as even the smallest typo can screw up everything. 

 

This is both true and false. For something like tweaking the damage a weapon deals, assuming DE is not doing something silly, it would be a simple matter to change the base damage, magazine size should also be a single value. For something like changing the behavior of Zephyr's tornado or how mods interact with each other would require more work.

[Deaths.Reap3r]

Honestly I hate when people say they use beta as an excuse.

like everyone already said, beta is used because its not finished. Not even close.

If a game gets weekly updates, then its DEFINITELY NOT beta

[RejectionOfFate]

I love beta threads.

 

It fits so well into those kinds of topics..

[VoidPunch]

As the updates go on, Warframe is beginning to look less and less like an actual Beta and more like a full release.

 

Seriously though, that is how Beta works. It will continue to look more and more like a full release until the full release.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

reading your post made me hungry.

[(PSN)RocketPunch1221]

cliffs?

[Dualstar]

So what can we change? Well one thing would be DE gets over their fear of breaking a warframe or a weapon because they need to realize that it can be temporary and it can be changed. Likewise, WE need to get over the fear of our favorite weapons and warframes getting broken because it is for balanced. The idea behind nerfing or buffing something is not to break the OP weapons and make them trash or to make everything as powerful as a handful of overpowered weapons because people don't want their favorite things "ruined", even if it is overshadowing everything else in its category, but rather to make everything at least somewhat viable. DE should not be afraid to S#&$ out some balances that might not work because that is the whole point. The whole point is that we slowly learn what needs to be changed, and how much we need to change it. No matter how many great threads people make with all their fancy numbers and math, they never actually tried it. It simply isn't possible. it isn't always easy to pinpoint what is wrong in the system, and even if we do find out, it might not be possible to get it perfectly balanced in one go. We need to release patches that may break the game, because as time goes on, changes will be less and less severe and slowly we will find out what works and what doesn't.

Nope. Wrong.

Its a @(*()$ stupid approach to balance to break something as a quick fix to rework it later. Going from what ive seen from SOE games, the affected players are going to be left jaded and resentful. Not what you want when the devs actually interact with the community.

Not to mention that it leaves a possibility of the rework being delayed for whatever reason.

Also content in Warframe is not difficult to access by any stretch of the imagination, so its very unlikely that someone has not tried something, be it for normal gameplay or controlled testing.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Dualstar

[Cinderain]

This game need balance, this game need bug fixing (a lot), this game get regular updates, as in gameplay mechanics related updates... this game need a story, this game need an endgame.

 

The game will still need all of that even when it's out of Beta. Limitless and bug-free content doesn't magically appear once a game goes out of Beta.

 

During or after Beta, the same things still occur. It will update, it will patch. These kinds of games, they don't stop, they can't.

Edited April 30, 2014 by FatalX7

[Ritchel]

disregard betas

 

if u dun like the game dun freakin playyit >:(

[WetAedeagus]

Let's assume Warframe is in Gamma stage.

[Rakosta_Kai]

I play the game in Whiskey stage on some Fridays.

[dashashou]

I am going to talk about Warframe as a Beta. And this is going to spark major controversy,

 

 

 

I don't think there a person that actually believes that this game will ever be released . Even the Dev/live streams they talk about update number , they know this game will be in perpetual beta ; the beta shield has been too useful to just throw away  . 

 

as to the weapon  it's a cycle one where they seem to ignore / tone down to the point of almost useless  the weapon / frames that they don't like , and make overpowered  those that they do . With the new stuff being markibly more powerful than the old .

 

Whether this is a design choice to encourage players to buy more slots / spend catalysts / forma on the new weapon / frame of the week or just a ooo new shiny , lets make the shiny new toy come with better stats on emotional reaction  and not logic . 

 

Their is no balance only favoritism . 

[AvengerGrim]

Limitless and bug-free content doesn't magically appear once a game goes out of Beta.

You just described the natural transition form a Beta state to a released state, lol, it's no magic, it's just how development works, once DE will judge that the game is stable enough (which currently isn't), that it got enough contents (which currently doesn't), that it got a solid Lore/story (which currently doesn't) and that it is feature-complete (which currently isn't), then they will release the game and stop calling it a Beta.

 

Again, the game clearly isn't finished, it is in Beta to say "Look, the game still need some features, there is a lack of endgame content, we didn't introduced the core of the Lore yet, the game is still unstable and need to be regularly fixed and all content in the game is subject to change, just bear that it mind and please leave us feedback."

[Cinderain]

Again, the game clearly isn't finished

 

Look, no offense, but I'm not sure you know how this development works, or any development, really. There's no such thing as finished. This game will always need features, and with that more fixes, even more so if DE's current development cycle/style keeps up. This isn't some console game that gets two or three DLC/map packs and then withers away as it's support is cut off.

 

If DE wants to keep this game, nothing will change, the same cycle will continue.

Edited April 30, 2014 by FatalX7

[PookieNumnums]

4ever beta

 

never stop evolving this game

 

ill play as long as it continues to grow and change.

 

 

nuff sedna