All Competitive Content Needs To Be Entirely Optional, With No Detriment To Those Who Would Like To Opt-Out

[Saenol]

Warframe is a heavily instanced, ostensibly co-op, PvE oriented game.

 

So, why are we forced to directly or indirectly participate in competitive PvP in order to experience all PvE content without interference?

 

Individuals, Clans, and Alliances should be able to opt out entirely of Dark Sector Conflicts. Those doing so should not pay any taxes for the use of a Rail and should not be able to challenge for/deploy rails of their own. When a Dark Sector is contested, those opting out should be able to play the Conflict missions normally, but their contributions should not be counted toward either side, and they should not receive any battle pay nor consume any battle pay tickets.

 

A system like this would allow those interested in the competition to play the game the way they like, without having to force those not so inclined to tolerate their existence.

 

Something similar should apply to other events where players are pitted against other players. Outside of things like leader boards, other statistics, and other superficial things, nothing else anyone ever does should have to impact an individual in a game like this.

 

Conclave battles were fine as no one gets any rewards or penalties that influence the rest of the game. However, some recent events and Dark Sector Conflicts cross a line into territory I do not find pleasant. If I wanted to fight other players, I could fire up any number of competitive PVP games I play, and get a better experience. Warframes strength is not PvP or competition. It has a niche of it's own; do not blur it any further.

[War_Admiral_Adama]

Warframe Pvp is great though. Other than that, I think it's about time more Pvp politics are introduced.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Lynches

[Senketsu_]

if you have seen the newest devstream they touch on this topic.(maybe the one before).

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

Warframe Pvp is great though. Other than that, I think it's about time more Pvp politics are introduced.

That's all fine and dandy if you and some other people think PVP in warframe is great and that more of it needs to be introduced, but I do most certainly agree with the OP that PVP in this game should stay completely away from the original PVE aspect of the game. The Dark Sectors have a blurred line in this regard because while the nodes themselves are PVE as usual, the conflicts, taxes, etc are all PVP, and the OP is stating that the PVP with regards to the dark sectors should be purely optional. 

 

Don't want to support any clans or alliances in the Dark Sectors but want to play the Dark Sector nodes? Sure, go right on ahead. No worries about taxes or any of that crap. And the OP did address some possible ways to balance people that do not want to have the PVP shoved into their faces.

[VoidPunch]

I don't see the problem. You can just play else where I mean what does it matter if one clan wins over another if you don't care about the whole politics issue. It's hardly pvp I think and the tributes/taxes are usually extremely low and negligible considering some nodes dish out quite a reward per mission.

[ArchPhaeton]

+1 to OP.

 

Warframe PvP, as it has been said, exists only because of a few vocal PvP fans, and its main fault is pitting glass cannons vs each other.

 

I've watched the devstreams but since I' m not native English I miss some stuff, let's see what comes next.

 

And has someone said, rather than "endgame" and/or "pvp" what we need is replay value.

[Dueler]

The recent Dark Sector Conflicts aren't really PvP. You don't fight other players directly, the closest you come is fighting specters. And with the introduction of the BPs, it makes it even more PvE focused since you actually have to cooperate to get those BPs. 

 

What you're complaining about isn't PvP, but solo vs team play. Obviously if you'd rather not play in a clan (or are part of a small clan) you'll have a harder time with things. IMO DE has addressed solo play pretty well, with smaller clans needing less resources, and most nodes being solo-able.

 

Also remember, this is an online game. There is always going to be some competitive aspect in online games, and if you look at most PvE games, there is always something players can compete over. DE has done a good job with keeping events PvE.

[LordBeeBrain]

And has someone said, rather than "endgame" and/or "pvp" what we need is replay value.

 

DE's "solution" to endgame: "They want harder levels? Let's have them fight each other.." 

Edited May 7, 2014 by xZetsumeix

[(PSN)MatangoMushrooms]

I have to admit, I don't like the PVP either, I have zero interest in conclave or dueling rooms. One of the biggest reasons I hooked on to this game was because it was co-op. I don't really know how I'm going to feel about Dark Sectors until I experience them, but the co-op is the reason I'm here.

Edited May 7, 2014 by (PS4)MatangoMushrooms

[Mcl_Blue]

So, why are we forced to directly or indirectly participate in competitive PvP in order to experience all PvE content without interference?

But.... we aren't?

[-Mr.Meeseeks-]

Uh... Since when do we have pvp in dark sectors? The spectres you fight are AI controlled, not human.

 

I guess you can maybe consider the clan vs. clan aspect of the solar rails to be pvp in a way, but the solution is simple: don't like Dark Sectors? don't play on them. there's nothing to gain there that you can't get somewhere else.

[Saenol]

 

You can just play else where

 

And lose out on all of the requisite benefits of the Dark Sectors, including, but not limited to:

 

- The only reliable way to fight Infested without building Derelict Keys.

 

- Substantial bonuses to credit, resource, and experience awards.

 

- A chance at obtaining rare Dark Sector mods, without having to gamble away dozens of mods and hundreds of thousands of credits on Transmutation.

 

- Experiencing other content unique to the conflicts.

 

As it is, there no way to do any of this without influencing, and being influenced by, a PVP Conflict. If you play on a Dark Sector, you are probably providing support via taxes to the defenders, and if you play on a Rail that is contested,  you are helping one side or the other directly.

 

The recent Dark Sector Conflicts aren't really PvP.

 

Abstract PvP is still PvP. My actions can harm other players, and the actions of other players can harm me. That is unambiguously PvP.

 

There is always going to be some competitive aspect in online games, and if you look at most PvE games, there is always something players can compete over. 

 

There are many games that I can play, where, should I chose not to associate with specific other individuals or groups, they may as well not exist.

 

What you're complaining about isn't PvP, but solo vs team play.

 

Flatly wrong.

 

I am complaining about not being given a choice over who I play with. I am not part of a clan or alliance and I prefer to spend most of my time in Warframe playing with the same small circle of acquaintances.

 

The Dark Sector system forces me to do without significant PvE content unless I want to associate with or suffer the influence of, people I do not know, and do not care to play with.

 

 

But.... we aren't?

 

Yes, we are.

 

Taxation is interference. Having to pick sides in conflicts is interference. Having Conflicts preempt access to content is interference.

 

I do not know how you could possibly argue otherwise.

 

there's nothing to gain there that you can't get somewhere else.

 

Incorrect.

 

 

Warframe Pvp is great though. Other than that, I think it's about time more Pvp politics are introduced.

 

If you enjoy it, that's all well and good.

 

However, no one who does not wish to participate should be forced to, and they should not be penalized in any way for not doing so.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Saenol

[Rydian]

Dark Sectors awards something you can't get at all elsewhere?  Do tell me more.

 

Vicarious PvP is still PvP. My actions can harm other players, and the actions of other players can harm me. That is unambiguously PvP.

Did you know that if people post on forums, they can convince DE to nerf frames/weapons?

 

If they nerf a frame/weapon you're using because of the actions of the players...

 

(What I'm saying is that's a hell of stretch.  Clan/alliance vaults are not linked to individual players.)

[Mcl_Blue]

 

there's nothing to gain there that you can't get somewhere else.

 

Incorrect.

Correct.

 

You claim there's stuff in the Dark Sectors that you can't get elsewhere (particularly, these so-called "Dark Sector mods")

- A chance at obtaining rare Dark Sector mods, without having to gamble away dozens of mods and hundreds of thousands of credits on Transmutation.

There is no such thing, and I don't know what led you to believe otherwise.

 

Also....

Yes, we are.

 

Taxation is interference. Having to pick sides in conflicts is interference. Having Conflicts preempt access to content is interference.

 

I do not know how you could possibly argue otherwise.

Do tell... WHY do you HAVE to care? I have never bothered myself with who I was or wasn't helping when playing on Dark Sectors or rail conflicts, and I don't see why that should stop anyone's enjoyment of the game.

 

EDIT: Not to mention this system, on the surface, is pretty much the same as the Invasion system, and I don't see you complaining about that.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Mcl_BlueMadness

[Saenol]

 

Dark Sectors awards something you can't get at all elsewhere?  Do tell me more.

 

Don't be obtuse.

 

You know full well that Dark Sectors provide substantial bonuses to earned experience and resources, as well as pay more credits per minute than any mission outside of T3 captures. You cannot get these bonuses outside of Dark Sectors. Those who have access to Dark Sectors are at an advantage.

 

Several of the new Channeling mods are supposedly only awarded in Dark Sectors, or via Transmutation. I've never seen mods like True Punishment or Life Strike be awarded/drop outside of a Dark Sector.

 

What I'm saying is that's a hell of stretch. 

 

No, it's not a stretch.

 

Dark Sector Conflicts are clearly PvP. This is self evident, and by design.

 

Clan/alliance vaults are not linked to individual players.

 

Utterly irrelevant, with no bearing on the argument, and not remotely contradicting any statement I made.

 

Do tell... WHY do you HAVE to care? I have never bothered myself with who I was or wasn't helping when playing on Dark Sectors or rail conflicts, and I don't see why that should stop anyone's enjoyment of the game.

 

EDIT: Not to mention this system, on the surface, is pretty much the same as the Invasion system, and I don't see you complaining about that.

 

You don't think the taxes collected or the damage dealt to a rail can influence a conflict? Do you not realize that the winner of a conflict can start, or continue to, take a portion of your mission rewards? You don't realize Rails can be held up for varying lengths of time depending on the course of such conflicts?

 

I do not have to care about anything, but access to Dark Sectors, and the Conflicts that dictate who controls that access, quite obviously affects me, so it's quite reasonable to care.

 

I don't like the invasion system either. My complaint about it was included in my original post, where I stated, and I quote: "Something similar should apply to other events where players are pitted against other players."

Edited May 7, 2014 by Saenol

[Guest]

I have to agree with most of what OP has said, but most of all this:

 

some recent events and Dark Sector Conflicts cross a line into territory I do not find pleasant.

 

Those are my exact thoughts. Warframe was a co-op-centered game and it should have stayed that way. The introduction of direct clan conflicts and taxation has created an awful ambient in-game and it's getting harder to just ignore. That the developers are putting more content exclusively into this new "feature" to force players to run those missions is really not helping.

 

 

 there's nothing to gain there that you can't get somewhere else.

 

Please tell me where else do I get these, then:

 

[Mcl_Blue]

You don't think the taxes collected or the damage dealt to a rail can influence a conflict? Do you not realize that the winner of a conflict can start, or continue to, take a portion of your mission rewards? You don't realize Rails can be held up for varying lengths of time depending on the course of such conflicts?

 

I do not have to care about anything, but access to Dark Sectors, and the Conflicts that dictate who controls that access, quite obviously affects me, so it's quite reasonable to care.

I do realize all of that. I also realize that 10% of the credits I collect is something I don't care about, and that if I don't agree with the taxation of a node, I can and will just go look for another. It's not that I don't understand the repercussions and permutations of playing on a DS or for/against a specific clan... I just don't care because for me, as a singular player, it won't mean that much in the long run.

[Rydian]

You know full well that Dark Sectors provide substantial bonuses to earned experience and resources, as well as pay more credits per minute than any mission outside of T3 captures. You cannot get these bonuses outside of Dark Sectors. Those who have access to Dark Sectors are at an advantage.

 

Several of the new Channeling mods are supposedly only awarded in Dark Sectors, or via Transmutation. I've never seen mods like True Punishment or Life Strike be awarded/drop outside of a Dark Sector.

 

1 - Credits, exp, and resources are all available outside of the dark sectors.

 

2 - Transmutation is not dark sectors.

 

You're confusing "Best way to get" with "available at all"?  You do not NEED to do a specific action to get a reward just because it's the best time spent to get it.

 

Like, do you NEED to spend IRL money on prime access in order to get Rhino Prime?  No, because he can be obtained and built in-game.  That can take days though, whereas getting prime access takes a few minutes which makes it the fastest.

 

You're stretching things a hell of a lot here, Sae...

[Vargras]

Solar Rail Sabotage isn't even PvP. Please stop calling it that.

 

You're fighting through a single mission filled with a bunch of AI controlled enemies. There are no enemy units being controlled by other players. The only real PvP in the game right now is in the Conclaves.

[Saenol]

 

I just don't care because for me, as a singular player, it won't mean that much in the long run.

 

And in my opinion any amount of interference, even not "much in the the long run", is still too much.

 

I want to opt out.

 

Solar Rail Sabotage isn't even PvP. Please stop calling it that.

 

It's PvP. Please stop pretending that because something is an abstraction means that it doesn't exist.

 

 

1 - Credits, exp, and resources are all available outside of the dark sectors.

 

2 - Transmutation is not dark sectors.

 

1. The bonuses are not.

 

2. Transmutation is not remotely reliable. Do you know how much it cost me to get a Life Strike from Transmutation? Over a million credits and 120 rare mods.

 

You're confusing "Best way to get" with "available at all"?

 

No I am not. You are reading between lines that do not exist.

 

I never once stated that the same ends were not possible without the Dark Sectors. I never even implied this. However, Dark Sectors are some of the best means to these ends. The relative convince and speed of the Dark Sectors is what is lost by ignoring them, that is where the value is.

 

You're stretching things a hell of a lot here, Sae...

 

No, you are failing to comprehend my posts.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Saenol

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

Solar Rail Sabotage isn't even PvP. Please stop calling it that.

 

You're fighting through a single mission filled with a bunch of AI controlled enemies. There are no enemy units being controlled by other players. The only real PvP in the game right now is in the Conclaves.

Even indirect PVP is still PVP. The Dark Sectors being a case of Clan PVP - Clans fighting eachother over rails. Is it direct PVP like Halo or Call of Duty? No. However, the present system is still a form of PVP, that being Clans (owned and run by players) fighting other clans for territories. With the fact that, in the end, these are players fighting other players for the nodes (albeit indirectly), that makes Dark Sectors PVP.

[Cwierz]

 

 

 

And in my opinion any amount of interference, even not "much in the the long run", is still too much.

 

I want to opt out.

 

 

It's PvP. Please stop pretending that because something is an abstraction means that it doesn't exist.

 

Then opt out.

Don't do those missions. 

Even so, what is PvP? Player vs Player. 

 

The fact of the matter is anyways, that that mission is PvE because you are not PLAYING against another player. Your rewards do not impact PLAYING. PvP is not PvP in a game unless it involves PLAYING. This is a simple concept. Notice the word PLAYING. The PLAYING part of this game is the game. Not the end rewards and taxation. So unless something obstructs your PLAYING of the game, it doesn't hold up.

 

Just to make sure you get this. Player Vs Player is PLAYING against another player in competition. Are you PLAYING against a player in a dark sector mission?

No.

[Satsaru]

This entire thread is incredibly obtuse.

[DoomFruit]

You know full well that Dark Sectors provide substantial bonuses to earned experience and resources, as well as pay more credits per minute than any mission outside of T3 captures. You cannot get these bonuses outside of Dark Sectors. Those who have access to Dark Sectors are at an advantage.

 

Several of the new Channeling mods are supposedly only awarded in Dark Sectors, or via Transmutation. I've never seen mods like True Punishment or Life Strike be awarded/drop outside of a Dark Sector.

I also seem to recall reading that DE intended the new faction (when it comes) to be accessible via the dark sectors. I don't remember where, however, so I can't give you a source.

[fatpig84]

Or you know.... Just play the Dark sectors that are on armistice. 

You still get your precious mods.