Why Fleeting Expertise Needs To Be Changed

[Seanjuju]

The answer is no.

 

Fella just keep walkin'.

[SquirmyBurrito]

And to remind you, I main Loki as well.

And I only use FE for Radial disarm, my other 2 Loki builds (thief build and perma invisibility) do NOT use FE in any form.

 

But fine, I will analysis by the numbers.

 

Cutting down his disarm range to 38 meters (assuming a 60% range nerf and a maxed setup) is fine. Because you get to keep a 12 second invisibility for only 12.5 energy and you can RD far more safely than before. So you are making the RD Loki even stronger.

 

Right now a full blown 50m RD Redirection Loki only has a 5+ seconds (50 FE + 25 SL) of invisibility or 10 if you drop redirection for continuity (and keep rush). The current system keeps him balanced.

 

But if you are not a full on RD loki but using a balanced setup, then what happens?

So your changes will actually buff the RD Loki to possibly extremely Op levels but end up killing a ton of other frames and Loki builds in the process.

 

And don't talk about Trinity, she will be getting re-worked.

 

You claim to main Loki, but you don't seem to know a whole lot about how he can be built:

 

25 E-cost RD, 12 seconds of invisibility, 50 meter RD range http://goo.gl/hbLZjE

Hell, if you're willing to pay 5 extra energy on RD you can get Invisibility's time up to 14.2 seconds. And that's not even the extent of the tweaks you could use to further enhance your invisibility time.

 

Do not attempt to talk to me about Loki as if I don't know about him. He has been my main for the majority of the time I played this game. I have two of them and have leveled three Loki's from 0-30 NOT counting forma. I am VERY familiar with him.

 

My proposed change doesn't change things all that much especially not RD Loki as either way he'd still be stuck with 25 E-cost and his range would only be 38 meters. That would increase the amount of casts he'd have to do per mission. It changes nothing. If Overextended was given the -duration debuff that'd be a wrap. Loki is basically the same.

 

Y'know you can't just use terms like 'full on RD' or 'balanced' and expect me to understand what builds you're talking about as you lost me as soon as you brought up redirection. Why would you use redirection on Loki? That's a waste of a mod slot.

 

This change would nerf RD, not buff it.

 

Maybe you should read through my entire post and the purpose of this thread before you start trying to Loki fan-check me.

 

You seriously need to pull your head out of the sand and look at how my change affects the entire cast, not just Loki.

Edited May 11, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Rhiasu]

As if Fleeting expertise is the only broken corrupted mod.

[fatpig84]

You claim to main Loki, but you don't seem to know a whole lot about how he can be built:

 

25 E-cost RD, 12 seconds of invisibility, 50 meter RD range http://goo.gl/hbLZjE

Hell, if you're willing to pay 5 extra energy on RD you can get Invisibility's time up to 14.2 seconds. And that's not even the extent of the tweaks you could use to further enhance your invisibility time.

 

Do not attempt to talk to me about Loki as if I don't know about him. He has been my main for the majority of the time I played this game. I have two of them and have leveled three Loki's from 0-30 NOT counting forma. I am VERY familiar with him.

 

My proposed change doesn't change things all that much especially not RD Loki as either way he'd still be stuck with 25 E-cost and his range would only be 38 meters. That would increase the amount of casts he'd have to do per mission. It changes nothing. If Overextended was given the -duration debuff that'd be a wrap. Loki is basically the same.

 

Y'know you can't just use terms like 'full on RD' or 'balanced' and expect me to understand what builds you're talking about as you lost me as soon as you brought up redirection. Why would you use redirection on Loki? That's a waste of a mod slot.

 

This change would nerf RD, not buff it.

 

Maybe you should read through my entire post and the purpose of this thread before you start trying to Loki fan-check me.

 

You seriously need to pull your head out of the sand and look at how my change affects the entire cast, not just Loki.

 

Your build uses up a skill slot. Which i retained.

That is the major difference.

 

http://goo.gl/lpcAO7

 

As I still use ST and decoy to go to unreachable locations after using disarm, because I like able to use ogris and penta while enemies are helpless flailing their arms. And yes I do use Redirection interchangeably if I don't feel like abusing invisibility.

 

http://goo.gl/1puuPR

 

 

But yes I still stand by that your changes will make invisibility go for longer and Loki would have gain out of something instead.

 

But for the other frames,.the one that will be the mostly badly affected is Nyx as she can no longer rely on short duration chaos and Absorb anymore. Then Excal will lose a buttload of range from his RB.

 

And of course the other offensive casters.

 

 

 

P.S. Pardon my English, it isn't my first language.

Edited May 11, 2014 by fatpig84

[sanj66]

 

I don't exactly understand what it is you're trying to say here. Maybe your formatting it killing my reading comprehension?

 

I don't see how this change could make a frame useless as Fleeting expertise's efficiency shouldn't be a requirement in the first place. If a frame needs FE to be viable it is in SERIOUS trouble and should be buffed immediately.

 

Loki doesn't really benefit from this change all that much so I'm not sure why people are even bringing him up. Here, I'll explain my reasoning:

 

With FE's current effect Loki is already capable of achieving an infinite invisibility loop via energy siphon. Removing the duration debuff from FE doesn't change this, all it does is further increase the duration and net energy gain. There is no step beyond perma invisibility. Having a longer lasting invisibility means little more than less times you have to press its cast button. However, this change WOULD prevent the extremely powerful Radial Disarm spam.

 

Rhino would be forced to choose between wide-range CC/Nuke for a normal/high price or low-range cheap CC/Nuke. This would apply to all nuke abilities. Trading spammability for their once amazing range. Charge wouldn't be hurt as a movement skill. Roar would have to choose between spammability and team viability.

 

Trinity's blessing is one of the few powers that escapes the change. But again, there is no step beyond perma blessing. Increasing it's duration means little.

 

No, Volt will be just as he would be without slapping a FE on. You seem to be under the assumption that frames HAVE to have FE to be usable. Volt (like every other room nuker/CC'er) will be forced to choose between spammability and range.

 

My change is by far the least complex and most affective of the ones I've seen. It offers a very real and reasonable trade-off, and is only 'exploitable' in situations where that exploitability already existed. The frame that is hit hardest by this change would be Saryn as she would no longer be able to use FE as a double buff corrupted mod (both the debuff and buff help her miasma). 

 

So, in short- Loki and Trinity can ALREADY abuse FE to achieve perma invisibility/blessing builds. The debuff being changed to something that doesn't affect those two abilities doesn't change anything in the grand scheme of things as permanent is permanent (even though that term isn't being used quite right).

 

No frame should require FE to be viable. If you feel any frame does I urge you to go create a thread about it and bring this to DE's attention.

the point you keep missing that was stated in the very first sentence is this, your change affects more frames than others, it also encourages players to use these "broken" skills on frames, and a lesson in english for you its effective not affective. its funny how you go around the forums always telling people what is good for them when in fact all you post is stuff that is good for and benefits yourself.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Your build uses up a skill slot. Which i retained.

That is the major difference.

 

http://goo.gl/lpcAO7

 

As I still use ST and decoy to go to unreachable locations after using disarm, because I like able to use ogris and penta while enemies are helpless flailing their arms. And yes I do use Redirection interchangeably if I don't feel like abusing invisibility.

 

http://goo.gl/1puuPR

 

 

But yes I still stand by that your changes will make invisibility go for longer and Loki would have gain out of something instead.

 

But for the other frames,.the one that will be the mostly badly affected is Nyx as she can no longer rely on short duration chaos and Absorb anymore. Then Excal will lose a buttload of range from his RB.

 

And of course the other offensive casters.

 

 

 

P.S. Pardon my English, it isn't my first language.

 

Of course. If you are going to forma your frame it is unwise to forma a blank slot before an ability slot. Your cheapest abilities cost so little, there is no need to match their polarities.

 

If you want decoy, you could sacrifice a duration mod.

 

How long invisibility lasts does not matter once your build is capable of regenerating more energy than you use.

 

Nyx can use a different mod to achieve the -duration debuff.

 

Excal loses range... so?

 

Yes, they're no longer given the illusion of choice. It's either huge range nuke/cc with normal (or slightly lower) cost, or low range but extremely low cost.

 

I don't remember saying anything about your English... If it means anything, your English is great.

 

Again, why are you focusing on Loki so much? Y'know there are other frames that are capable of abusing current FE (Loki included), changing it the way I suggested gets rid of the majority of the cases where it was exploitable.

 

the point you keep missing that was stated in the very first sentence is this, your change affects more frames than others, it also encourages players to use these "broken" skills on frames, and a lesson in english for you its effective not affective. its funny how you go around the forums always telling people what is good for them when in fact all you post is stuff that is good for and benefits yourself.

 

I don't need an English lesson, thank you very much. If we're helping each other learn English I recommend you learn how to capitalize the first word in each sentence. 'English' should also be capitalized.

 

My change affects ALL FRAMES. Some being affected more was obvious. It is what happens when you have a stat specific debuff.

 

Now you've resorted to spouting BS. I don't propose changes so that I can reap benefits. Do not slander my name with these unsubstantiated accusations. FE in its current state is perfect for exploitation, my proposed change would negatively affect the majority of my ability centered builds. But please, go on and tell me how I'm making this suggestion so that I can benefit. My Radial Disarm-Switch Teleport Loki is going to love to hear this. As are my Blindcalibur, Mag, Chaos Nyx, Nekros, Rhino, Nova, Volt, etc (you should get the point by now).

 

Affected: 56

Unaffected: 19

Uncertain: 1

 

Edit: If you have examples from other threads where I seriously (meaning I wasn't joking) made suggestions with the intent to benefit myself rather than this game as a whole please provide them. I'm all ears.

Edited May 11, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[sanj66]

 

Of course. If you are going to forma your frame it is unwise to forma a blank slot before an ability slot. Your cheapest abilities cost so little, there is no need to match their polarities.

 

If you want decoy, you could sacrifice a duration mod.

 

How long invisibility lasts does not matter once your build is capable of regenerating more energy than you use.

 

Nyx can use a different mod to achieve the -duration debuff.

 

Excal loses range... so?

 

Yes, they're no longer given the illusion of choice. It's either huge range nuke/cc with normal (or slightly lower) cost, or low range but extremely low cost.

 

I don't remember saying anything about your English... If it means anything, your English is great.

 

Again, why are you focusing on Loki so much? Y'know there are other frames that are capable of abusing current FE (Loki included), changing it the way I suggested gets rid of the majority of the cases where it was exploitable.

 

 

I don't need an English lesson, thank you very much. If we're helping each other learn English I recommend you learn how to capitalize the first word in each sentence. 'English' should also be capitalized.

 

My change affects ALL FRAMES. Some being affected more was obvious. It is what happens when you have a stat specific debuff.

 

Now you've resorted to spouting BS. I don't propose changes so that I can reap benefits. Do not slander my name with these unsubstantiated accusations. FE in its current state is perfect for exploitation, my proposed change would negatively affect the majority of my ability centered builds. But please, go on and tell me how I'm making this suggestion so that I can benefit. My Radial Disarm-Switch Teleport Loki is going to love to hear this. As are my Blindcalibur, Mag, Chaos Nyx, Nekros, Rhino, Nova, Volt, etc (you should get the point by now).

 

Affected: 56

Unaffected: 19

Uncertain: 1

 

Edit: If you have examples from other threads where I seriously (meaning I wasn't joking) made suggestions with the intent to benefit myself rather than this game as a whole please provide them. I'm all ears.

 

 

 

Of course. If you are going to forma your frame it is unwise to forma a blank slot before an ability slot. Your cheapest abilities cost so little, there is no need to match their polarities.

 

If you want decoy, you could sacrifice a duration mod.

 

How long invisibility lasts does not matter once your build is capable of regenerating more energy than you use.

 

Nyx can use a different mod to achieve the -duration debuff.

 

Excal loses range... so?

 

Yes, they're no longer given the illusion of choice. It's either huge range nuke/cc with normal (or slightly lower) cost, or low range but extremely low cost.

 

I don't remember saying anything about your English... If it means anything, your English is great.

 

Again, why are you focusing on Loki so much? Y'know there are other frames that are capable of abusing current FE (Loki included), changing it the way I suggested gets rid of the majority of the cases where it was exploitable.

 

 

I don't need an English lesson, thank you very much. If we're helping each other learn English I recommend you learn how to capitalize the first word in each sentence. 'English' should also be capitalized.

 

My change affects ALL FRAMES. Some being affected more was obvious. It is what happens when you have a stat specific debuff.

 

Now you've resorted to spouting BS. I don't propose changes so that I can reap benefits. Do not slander my name with these unsubstantiated accusations. FE in its current state is perfect for exploitation, my proposed change would negatively affect the majority of my ability centered builds. But please, go on and tell me how I'm making this suggestion so that I can benefit. My Radial Disarm-Switch Teleport Loki is going to love to hear this. As are my Blindcalibur, Mag, Chaos Nyx, Nekros, Rhino, Nova, Volt, etc (you should get the point by now).

 

Affected: 56

Unaffected: 19

Uncertain: 1

 

Edit: If you have examples from other threads where I seriously (meaning I wasn't joking) made suggestions with the intent to benefit myself rather than this game as a whole please provide them. I'm all ears.

 

you post "suggestions" to alter/nerf/affect basically every other frames, yet leave loki quite viable, to say an exploit already exists is no excuse to use, first you dont want rhino as fast as loki even though loki still outclasses rhino in every mission type and you wish to force a change on players that you benefit from to achieve your point by nuking all helms, now you want to use range debuff when it will affect more frames negatively but still leave loki as viable and still be the best frame around. if anything it makes loki more viable, and the point you missed before is this i never said fe makes a frame viable,  i said the negative effect of the debuff can do that, making fe a mod beneficial to basically some frames and destabilizing the viability of frames, raw statistics to say x amount of frames are affected or y amount of skills is useless as you have to go frame by frame and see how it affects each frame and each skill and their overall viability IF the mod is used. btw werent you the one who started all the english nonsense, try typing on a phone.  as for the bold, you always say you main loki and that he is your favorite frame yet all your proposals barely touch or dont really affect loki while it affects other frames, where are your threads asking for loki reworks/nerfs since you openly admit he is exploitable and you dont want things to only benefit yourself?

Edited May 11, 2014 by sanj66

[taiiat]

ye.

Powers being immune to Mod Effects is one of the biggest things that causes severe issues with some Powers.

 

there's also some stats on one or two powers that are totally out of line(try telling me that the Debuffs on MPrime lasting 60 seconds(unmodifiable) makes sense in the game, without breaking out laughing or sounding like a lunatic), but it's really mostly the fact that so many Powers are immune to Mods.

which totally defeats the purpose of Mods. and defeats the purpose of Corrupted Mods.

 

 

A range debuff is a hard nerf. It requires actual thought for MOST frames (Trinity, Valkyr, and a vortex-Vauban being the only exceptions I can think of right now). 

we'd still need to tweak a bunch of powers. i can think of a few off the top of my head that would gladly sacrifice Range to get more Efficiency, as they either legitimately benefit from smaller Range or just are immune to it.

 

there's literally no way around tweaking all of the Powers in the game so they aren't immune to Mod Effects. the longer we put it off the bigger the problem gets :/

[SquirmyBurrito]

you post "suggestions" to alter/nerf/affect basically every other frames, yet leave loki quite viable, to say an exploit already exists is no excuse to use, first you dont want rhino as fast as loki even though loki still outclasses rhino in every mission type and you wish to force a change on players that you benefit from to achieve your point by nuking all helms, now you want to use range debuff when it will affect more frames negatively but still leave loki as viable and still be the best frame around. if anything it makes loki more viable, and the point you missed before is this i never said fe makes a frame viable, i said the negative effect of the debuff can do that, making fe a mod beneficial to basically some frames and destabilizing the viability of frames, raw statistics to say x amount of frames are affected or y amount of skills is useless as you have to go frame by frame and see how it affects each frame and each skill and their overall viability IF the mod is used. btw werent you the one who started all the english nonsense, try typing on a phone.

You are so dense it is infuriating.

My suggestion affects Loki just as much as it affects many others. That is to say, it affects two of his abilities, one of which is his ult. His invisibility's over all stance remains the same as once you are making back more energy than you are spending the ability has reached its final form. It isn't an excuse, its the damn truth.

My argument against the Vanguard helmet applied to all arcane helmets. It wasn't Rhino exclusive. And my specific argument against Vanguard had NOTHING to do with his standing in reference to Loki and everything to do with his lack of a weakness.

Please explain how I benefit from losing the stats on my helmets? Oh right, I don't. You're talking out of your ***.

It negatively affects EVERY FRAME IN THIS GAME. Loki isn't the only frame who gets away with only two abilities being affected. Loki, Nekros, Saryn, Trinity, Vauban, and possibly Hydroid all get by with only two abilities being affected. The only frame that I do not have some version of is Hydroid.

Ash- 4/4

Banshee- 4/4

Ember- 3/4

Excalibur- 3/4

Frost- 4/4

Hydroid- 2/3 (not sure about tidal surge, common sense says yes but wiki has no information)

Loki- 2/4

Mag- 4/4

Nekros- 2/4

Nova- 3/4

Nyx- 3/4

Oberon- 3/4

Rhino- 3/4

Saryn- 2/4

Trinity- 2/4

Valkyr- 3/4

Vauban- 2/4

Volt- 3/4

Zephyr- 4/4

You're attempting to devalue my proposal by implying that I have a Loki-favored ulterior motive.

The funny thing is, you're completely wrong. My only motive is balancing an imbalance. I am not trying to buff Loki. I am actually in support of several proposed Loki nerfs. I do not have to go frame by frame as the very fact that an ability is affected is better than the numerous cases where FE flat out did not affect an ability at all. The negative effect not being viable on certain frames is a fact of corrupted mods. It just isn't smart of slap a maxed blind rage on a vortex-vauban. Just as it wouldn't be smart to slap a maxed FE on a Saryn unless you were willing to get hella close to your enemies(or compensate with range mods).

My proposal nerfs RD spam. It also nerfs Switch teleport.

Now, if you insist on implying that I am attempting to buff Loki I will be forced to ignore you. I do not need to justify myself to you or further attempt to disprove your accusations which are STILL unsubstantiated.

Edit: if you are so obsessed with finding out how my proposal affects each frame specifically and to what extent it affects the abilities you are going to have to go do that yourself.

 

ye.

Powers being immune to Mod Effects is one of the biggest things that causes severe issues with some Powers.

there's also some stats on one or two powers that are totally out of line(try telling me that the Debuffs on MPrime lasting 60 seconds(unmodifiable) makes sense in the game, without breaking out laughing or sounding like a lunatic), but it's really mostly the fact that so many Powers are immune to Mods.

which totally defeats the purpose of Mods. and defeats the purpose of Corrupted Mods.

we'd still need to tweak a bunch of powers. i can think of a few off the top of my head that would gladly sacrifice Range to get more Efficiency, as they either legitimately benefit from smaller Range or just are immune to it.

there's literally no way around tweaking all of the Powers in the game so they aren't immune to Mod Effects. the longer we put it off the bigger the problem gets :/

Could you please list the abilities that benefit from a smaller range? As for the abilities that are unaffected, that is 19. Compared to 56 abilities which ARE affected. My proposal affects at least two abilities on every frame.

Edit: Attempting to balance things by going in and adding in stat effects just isn't a viable solution for every ability. Example- Super Jump. With power strength currently affecting its height, what are range and duration supposed to do? They'd have to go in and purposely make abilities more complex.

Edited May 11, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[taiiat]

Could you please list the abilities that benefit from a smaller range? As for the abilities that are unaffected, that is 19. Compared to 56 abilities which ARE affected. My proposal affects at least two abilities on every frame.

it's late, so i'm afraid i can't be bothered to make a complete list atm.

 

however, Tornado definitely benefits from a smaller Range. it means you can control where the Tornados spawn more, and that means they'll meander away less.

 

you can also then better target specific Enemies to get them caught in it first.

 

just one example off the top of my head. if i remember, in the morning i'll gaze over all the Powers and think which ones can 'lolwutk' exploit lower cost Powers with a Range decrease.

 

 

and i'm sure you counted it already, but LOL Vortex with Fleeting Expertise that uses a Range Decrease anyone?

holy sh*t.

 

 

Edit:

i get that there would be less exploitation - but less isn't none, and more than none isn't good enough, and more than none means we haven't fixed the problem, meaning we haven't finished the job, meaning any change was a halfassed one :/

 

i don't like halfassing things. if i'm going to do it, i'm going to do it right. 

 

when Level Designing, i'll spend hours on one wall to make sure the Textures and objects i'm placing line up PERFECTLY. it's important to me, and if i don't do it, i'm just halfassing it like so many people in the Game Industry do. and i don't want to be one of those people.

Edited May 11, 2014 by taiiat

[sanj66]

You are so dense it is infuriating.

My suggestion affects Loki just as much as it affects many others. That is to say, it affects two of his abilities, one of which is his ult. His invisibility's over all stance remains the same as once you are making back more energy than you are spending the ability has reached its final form. It isn't an excuse, its the damn truth.

My argument against the Vanguard helmet applied to all arcane helmets. It wasn't Rhino exclusive. And my specific argument against Vanguard had NOTHING to do with his standing in reference to Loki and everything to do with his lack of a weakness.

Please explain how I benefit from losing the stats on my helmets? Oh right, I don't. You're talking out of your ***.

It negatively affects EVERY FRAME IN THIS GAME. Loki isn't the only frame who gets away with only two abilities being affected. Loki, Nekros, Saryn, Trinity, Vauban, and possibly Hydroid all get by with only two abilities being affected. The only frame that I do not have some version of is Hydroid.

Ash- 4/4

Banshee- 4/4

Ember- 3/4

Excalibur- 3/4

Frost- 4/4

Hydroid- 2/3 (not sure about tidal surge, common sense says yes but wiki has no information)

Loki- 2/4

Mag- 4/4

Nekros- 2/4

Nova- 3/4

Nyx- 3/4

Oberon- 3/4

Rhino- 3/4

Saryn- 2/4

Trinity- 2/4

Valkyr- 3/4

Vauban- 2/4

Volt- 3/4

Zephyr- 4/4

You're attempting to devalue my proposal by implying that I have a Loki-favored ulterior motive.

The funny thing is, you're completely wrong. My only motive is balancing an imbalance. I am not trying to buff Loki. I am actually in support of several proposed Loki nerfs. I do not have to go frame by frame as the very fact that an ability is affected is better than the numerous cases where FE flat out did not affect an ability at all. The negative effect not being viable on certain frames is a fact of corrupted mods. It just isn't smart of slap a maxed blind rage on a vortex-vauban. Just as it wouldn't be smart to slap a maxed FE on a Saryn unless you were willing to get hella close to your enemies(or compensate with range mods).

My proposal nerfs RD spam. It also nerfs Switch teleport.

Now, if you insist on implying that I am attempting to buff Loki I will be forced to ignore you. I do not need to justify myself to you or further attempt to disprove your accusations which are STILL unsubstantiated.

Edit: if you are so obsessed with finding out how my proposal affects each frame specifically and to what extent it affects the abilities you are going to have to go do that yourself.

 

Could you please list the abilities that benefit from a smaller range? As for the abilities that are unaffected, that is 19. Compared to 56 abilities which ARE affected. My proposal affects at least two abilities on every frame.

Edit: Attempting to balance things by going in and adding in stat effects just isn't a viable solution for every ability. Example- Super Jump. With power strength currently affecting its height, what are range and duration supposed to do? They'd have to go in and purposely make abilities more complex.

 

You are so dense it is infuriating.

My suggestion affects Loki just as much as it affects many others. That is to say, it affects two of his abilities, one of which is his ult. His invisibility's over all stance remains the same as once you are making back more energy than you are spending the ability has reached its final form. It isn't an excuse, its the damn truth.

My argument against the Vanguard helmet applied to all arcane helmets. It wasn't Rhino exclusive. And my specific argument against Vanguard had NOTHING to do with his standing in reference to Loki and everything to do with his lack of a weakness.

Please explain how I benefit from losing the stats on my helmets? Oh right, I don't. You're talking out of your ***.

It negatively affects EVERY FRAME IN THIS GAME. Loki isn't the only frame who gets away with only two abilities being affected. Loki, Nekros, Saryn, Trinity, Vauban, and possibly Hydroid all get by with only two abilities being affected. The only frame that I do not have some version of is Hydroid.

Ash- 4/4

Banshee- 4/4

Ember- 3/4

Excalibur- 3/4

Frost- 4/4

Hydroid- 2/3 (not sure about tidal surge, common sense says yes but wiki has no information)

Loki- 2/4

Mag- 4/4

Nekros- 2/4

Nova- 3/4

Nyx- 3/4

Oberon- 3/4

Rhino- 3/4

Saryn- 2/4

Trinity- 2/4

Valkyr- 3/4

Vauban- 2/4

Volt- 3/4

Zephyr- 4/4

You're attempting to devalue my proposal by implying that I have a Loki-favored ulterior motive.

The funny thing is, you're completely wrong. My only motive is balancing an imbalance. I am not trying to buff Loki. I am actually in support of several proposed Loki nerfs. I do not have to go frame by frame as the very fact that an ability is affected is better than the numerous cases where FE flat out did not affect an ability at all. The negative effect not being viable on certain frames is a fact of corrupted mods. It just isn't smart of slap a maxed blind rage on a vortex-vauban. Just as it wouldn't be smart to slap a maxed FE on a Saryn unless you were willing to get hella close to your enemies(or compensate with range mods).

My proposal nerfs RD spam. It also nerfs Switch teleport.

Now, if you insist on implying that I am attempting to buff Loki I will be forced to ignore you. I do not need to justify myself to you or further attempt to disprove your accusations which are STILL unsubstantiated.

Edit: if you are so obsessed with finding out how my proposal affects each frame specifically and to what extent it affects the abilities you are going to have to go do that yourself.

 

Could you please list the abilities that benefit from a smaller range? As for the abilities that are unaffected, that is 19. Compared to 56 abilities which ARE affected. My proposal affects at least two abilities on every frame.

Edit: Attempting to balance things by going in and adding in stat effects just isn't a viable solution for every ability. Example- Super Jump. With power strength currently affecting its height, what are range and duration supposed to do? They'd have to go in and purposely make abilities more complex.

it does not affect loki as much as other frames, any idiot can see that, you get 60% more invisibility time, your whole idea to making people think also gets shot in the foot there as what is better than being invisible for much longer, as it negates damage as an enemy cant harm you if it cant see you, its much cheaper than it costs as you can regen the energy to recast before its up, yes it reduces the range of rd but that is or can be better as you get to disarm the mobs within your melee range to use the damage multiplier of invisibility rather than mobs far off where you would either need to use your guns or decoy. so it still benefits loki, it has little to no downside. like i said before you keep claiming it affects all frames but your failure lies in the extent or manner in which it affects each frame, statistics mean nothing compared to actual use and viability in which your statistics do not help with balance but is just a bandaid to say hey something was changed.

[Seele]

One power that instantly comes to mind in regards to +efficiency -range is Blessing, since reduced infinite range is still infinite.

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

While the whole idea of swapping the corrupt mods around so that FE ends up with -Range seems nice in some ways, I'm seeing far too many negative effects on stuff to warrant it.  Sure, it's a simple way to handle some of the ults that are a tad or so over the top in terms of effectiveness, but some other things would get hammered into desperately pitiful obscurity.  Also, there are a handful of places where the number of remotely viable builds would drastically decrease, Vauban is one that immediately hops to mind as a near rangeless Tesla would lose what viability it has, and a tiny Bastille becomes wholly outclassed by Vortex.  It'd more or less turn him into a 1-trick pony since bounce is already more for goofing off than anything anyways.

 

Oberon for instance, he's already pretty much meh for most people in terms of what his kit is capable of.  With -Range though... well so much for that frame.

 

Personally at least, I feel like it would be better to weed out the issues of certain skills and how problematic they become with ignoring -Duration, seeing as most of them have no reason to ignore it in the first place.  Frames that suffer from -Duration have reasonable downsides as it stands now, to an extent.  Take Radial Disarm for instance, why does it have to be permanent?  M.Prime, it's got a duration so just have it actually be affected, ect.

[Seele]

While the whole idea of swapping the corrupt mods around so that FE ends up with -Range seems nice in some ways, I'm seeing far too many negative effects on stuff to warrant it.  Sure, it's a simple way to handle some of the ults that are a tad or so over the top in terms of effectiveness, but some other things would get hammered into desperately pitiful obscurity.  Also, there are a handful of places where the number of remotely viable builds would drastically decrease, Vauban is one that immediately hops to mind as a near rangeless Tesla would lose what viability it has, and a tiny Bastille becomes wholly outclassed by Vortex.  It'd more or less turn him into a 1-trick pony since bounce is already more for goofing off than anything anyways.

 

Oberon for instance, he's already pretty much meh for most people in terms of what his kit is capable of.  With -Range though... well so much for that frame.

I honestly hate to use this argument because I hate when it's used against me.

But the way you described these warframes getting "hammered into desperately pitiful obscurity".

They could just not use it.

Weakening a mod does not inherently weaken any warframe - maybe certain playstyles of certain warframes that have been abusing certain skills, but the skills are the same. Streamline is still there for everyone to enjoy a reasonable 30% efficiency at no penalty.

[Dalu__Ka]

Corrupted mods should never have been introduced.

[fatpig84]

Honestly the biggest hurt will be Nyx if FE changes to minus range instead of minus duration.

Because, honestly who needs a 25 second chaos ?

 

It used to work in the old meta game because you are running defense, where enemies spawns are limited to waves. So as long you got chaos off at the right timing with a bulk of enemies incoming, you will do ok, even if it is for a long duration.

 

But current meta is slanting towards survival, a long duration can be detrimental as enemies spawn non-stop which leaves Nyx without her bread and butter skill for 25 seconds. Especially if it is a drone stuck somewhere like under the stairs.

 

 

In any case, I prefer just increase casting time.'

 

Rank 0 = 0.5 sec

Rank 1 = 1 sec

Rank 2 = 1.5 sec

Rank 3 = 2 sec

Rank 4 = 2.5 sec

Rank 5 = 3 secs

 

 

This will make FE a choice.

Do you want to cast for less energy and spend a longer time casting.

Yes 3 extra second to cast is extremely long for warframe and for frames with already long cast times like Nekros.

Edited May 11, 2014 by fatpig84

[SquirmyBurrito]

it's late, so i'm afraid i can't be bothered to make a complete list atm.

 

however, Tornado definitely benefits from a smaller Range. it means you can control where the Tornados spawn more, and that means they'll meander away less.

 

you can also then better target specific Enemies to get them caught in it first.

 

just one example off the top of my head. if i remember, in the morning i'll gaze over all the Powers and think which ones can 'lolwutk' exploit lower cost Powers with a Range decrease.

 

 

and i'm sure you counted it already, but LOL Vortex with Fleeting Expertise that uses a Range Decrease anyone?

holy sh*t.

 

 

Edit:

i get that there would be less exploitation - but less isn't none, and more than none isn't good enough, and more than none means we haven't fixed the problem, meaning we haven't finished the job, meaning any change was a halfassed one :/

 

i don't like halfassing things. if i'm going to do it, i'm going to do it right. 

 

when Level Designing, i'll spend hours on one wall to make sure the Textures and objects i'm placing line up PERFECTLY. it's important to me, and if i don't do it, i'm just halfassing it like so many people in the Game Industry do. and i don't want to be one of those people.

 

Doesn't that also run the risk of decreasing the amount of tornadoes spawned? I'd always take range over -range on my Zephyr if I was building for tornado.

 

Yes, I've already accounted for all abilities that would be unaffected by the -range debuff. There are 19 of them as opposed to 56 that are affected.

 

If you're campaigning for zero exploitation you're going to have to broaden your scope to include all other corrupted mods.

 

it does not affect loki as much as other frames, any idiot can see that, you get 60% more invisibility time, your whole idea to making people think also gets shot in the foot there as what is better than being invisible for much longer, as it negates damage as an enemy cant harm you if it cant see you, its much cheaper than it costs as you can regen the energy to recast before its up, yes it reduces the range of rd but that is or can be better as you get to disarm the mobs within your melee range to use the damage multiplier of invisibility rather than mobs far off where you would either need to use your guns or decoy. so it still benefits loki, it has little to no downside. like i said before you keep claiming it affects all frames but your failure lies in the extent or manner in which it affects each frame, statistics mean nothing compared to actual use and viability in which your statistics do not help with balance but is just a bandaid to say hey something was changed.

 

Any idiot could look at my list and see that Loki wouldn't be the only frame with only two powers affected (Nekros being an example). More invisibility time does not matter, just like more blessing time beyond a point doesn't matter. More invisibility time equates to more damage on a weapon that can already oneshot everything (barring scaling), it just doesn't matter.

 

No, it really doesn't. As I've said more time means nothing except slightly more flexibility. It doesn't actually negate damage, it just greatly decreases the likelihood of you taking any. You can already regen more energy than it costs, that's the whole point of perma invisibility builds. Once you've achieved that point lengthening invisibility's time doesn't mean a whole lot.

 

Now you've done it. You've officially ran out of arguments. In no way is less range on RD EVER a good thing. EVER. Less range doesn't benefit Loki. Concession accepted.

 

Less range on RD is a solid downside.

 

There is no failure. You've turned to grasping at straws(lying) to try to further your point. Less range on RD increases your chances of getting shot even while invisible and it decreases the effectiveness and life-time of Decoy.

 

You have yet to provide an example of this change being widely abuse-able. 19 out of 76 is damn good. You keep trying to act as if my numbers mean nothing but you have yet to actually PROVE IT. Please do so, or shove off.

 

One power that instantly comes to mind in regards to +efficiency -range is Blessing, since reduced infinite range is still infinite.

 

That is part of the 19 unaffected. I was asking for an example of an ability that benefits from the -range debuff, sorta like how Saryn benefits from the -duration debuff.

 

While the whole idea of swapping the corrupt mods around so that FE ends up with -Range seems nice in some ways, I'm seeing far too many negative effects on stuff to warrant it.  Sure, it's a simple way to handle some of the ults that are a tad or so over the top in terms of effectiveness, but some other things would get hammered into desperately pitiful obscurity.  Also, there are a handful of places where the number of remotely viable builds would drastically decrease, Vauban is one that immediately hops to mind as a near rangeless Tesla would lose what viability it has, and a tiny Bastille becomes wholly outclassed by Vortex.  It'd more or less turn him into a 1-trick pony since bounce is already more for goofing off than anything anyways.

 

Oberon for instance, he's already pretty much meh for most people in terms of what his kit is capable of.  With -Range though... well so much for that frame.

 

Personally at least, I feel like it would be better to weed out the issues of certain skills and how problematic they become with ignoring -Duration, seeing as most of them have no reason to ignore it in the first place.  Frames that suffer from -Duration have reasonable downsides as it stands now, to an extent.  Take Radial Disarm for instance, why does it have to be permanent?  M.Prime, it's got a duration so just have it actually be affected, ect.

 

Far too many negatives? Could you please explain? My proposal has pretty good numbers and comparatively low amounts of exploitable instances. 

 

If a debuff isn't good on your frame... don't use that mod. That's why I don't or rarely use blind rage and why I never use over extended on a nuke build.

 

Honestly the biggest hurt will be Nyx if FE changes to minus range instead of minus duration.

Because, honestly who needs a 25 second chaos ?

 

It used to work in the old meta game because you are running defense, where enemies spawns are limited to waves. So as long you got chaos off at the right timing with a bulk of enemies incoming, you will do ok, even if it is for a long duration.

 

But current meta is slanting towards survival, a long duration can be detrimental as enemies spawn non-stop which leaves Nyx without her bread and butter skill for 25 seconds. Especially if it is a drone stuck somewhere like under the stairs.

 

 

In any case, I prefer just increase casting time.'

 

Rank 0 = 0.5 sec

Rank 1 = 1 sec

Rank 2 = 1.5 sec

Rank 3 = 2 sec

Rank 4 = 2.5 sec

Rank 5 = 3 secs

 

 

This will make FE a choice.

Do you want to cast for less energy and spend a longer time casting.

Yes 3 extra second to cast is extremely long for warframe and for frames with already long cast times like Nekros.

 

You know, FE getting -range does not mean another mod wouldn't get the -duration. Nyx could just equip THAT one. Also, Nyx was an example of a frame who could exploit the old FE. Removing a instance of exploitation is a good thing, especially if you can remove most of them.

 

Cast time increase means little when you could just pair it with a natural talent. That's even MORE exploitable. The only frames who'd really get hurt by this are Nekros and a solo Trinity (Blessing's effects still go out even if her cast get's interrupted).

 

 

And now for the ultimate truth that many of you seemed to have forgotten...

Loki isn't the only frame in this game nor is he the main subject of this thread. All those continuously focusing solely on Loki are derailing this thread.

Edited May 11, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[SquirmyBurrito]

Current FE

Bold indicates decreases in the number of abilities affected, underline indicates increases in the number of abilities affect.

 

Ash- 1/4

Banshee- 2/4

Ember- 3/4

Excalibur- 2/4

Frost- 2/4

Hydroid- 4/4

Loki- 2/4

Mag- 1/4

Nekros- 2/4

Nova- 2/4

Nyx- 3/4

Oberon- 2/4

Rhino- 2/4

Saryn- 4/4

Trinity- 4/4

Valkyr- 2/4

Vauban- 3/4

Volt- 2/4

Zephyr- 3/4

 

Affected: 46

Unaffected: 30

39.5% of abilities can exploit this. ~60% affected.

 

My change

 

Ash- 4/4

Banshee- 4/4

Ember- 3/4

Excalibur- 3/4

Frost- 4/4

Hydroid- 3/4

Loki- 2/4

Mag- 4/4

Nekros- 2/4

Nova- 3/4

Nyx- 3/4

Oberon- 3/4

Rhino- 3/4

Saryn- 2/4

Trinity- 2/4

Valkyr- 3/4

Vauban- 2/4

Volt- 3/4

Zephyr- 4/4

 

Affected: 57

Unaffected: 19

Uncertain: 1

 

25% of abilities can exploit this. 75% affected (I am pretty sure that Tidal Surge is affected my power range in the same way that Tailwind, Rhino Charge, and Slash Dash are).

 

My proposal is a solid change and catches most of the biggest offenders. It also CLEARLY affects more abilities than current FE does. And unlike other proposals, my change is neither too harsh to be usable nor so light that it can be ignored or worked around (natural talent).

Edited May 11, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[sanj66]

Doesn't that also run the risk of decreasing the amount of tornadoes spawned? I'd always take range over -range on my Zephyr if I was building for tornado.

 

Yes, I've already accounted for all abilities that would be unaffected by the -range debuff. There are 19 of them as opposed to 56 that are affected.

 

If you're campaigning for zero exploitation you're going to have to broaden your scope to include all other corrupted mods.

 

 

Any idiot could look at my list and see that Loki wouldn't be the only frame with only two powers affected (Nekros being an example). More invisibility time does not matter, just like more blessing time beyond a point doesn't matter. More invisibility time equates to more damage on a weapon that can already oneshot everything (barring scaling), it just doesn't matter.

 

No, it really doesn't. As I've said more time means nothing except slightly more flexibility. It doesn't actually negate damage, it just greatly decreases the likelihood of you taking any. You can already regen more energy than it costs, that's the whole point of perma invisibility builds. Once you've achieved that point lengthening invisibility's time doesn't mean a whole lot.

 

Now you've done it. You've officially ran out of arguments. In no way is less range on RD EVER a good thing. EVER. Less range doesn't benefit Loki. Concession accepted.

 

Less range on RD is a solid downside.

 

There is no failure. You've turned to grasping at straws(lying) to try to further your point. Less range on RD increases your chances of getting shot even while invisible and it decreases the effectiveness and life-time of Decoy.

 

You have yet to provide an example of this change being widely abuse-able. 19 out of 76 is damn good. You keep trying to act as if my numbers mean nothing but you have yet to actually PROVE IT. Please do so, or shove off.

 

 

That is part of the 19 unaffected. I was asking for an example of an ability that benefits from the -range debuff, sorta like how Saryn benefits from the -duration debuff.

 

 

Far too many negatives? Could you please explain? My proposal has pretty good numbers and comparatively low amounts of exploitable instances. 

 

If a debuff isn't good on your frame... don't use that mod. That's why I don't or rarely use blind rage and why I never use over extended on a nuke build.

 

 

You know, FE getting -range does not mean another mod wouldn't get the -duration. Nyx could just equip THAT one. Also, Nyx was an example of a frame who could exploit the old FE. Removing a instance of exploitation is a good thing, especially if you can remove most of them.

 

Cast time increase means little when you could just pair it with a natural talent. That's even MORE exploitable. The only frames who'd really get hurt by this are Nekros and a solo Trinity (Blessing's effects still go out even if her cast get's interrupted).

 

 

And now for the ultimate truth that many of you seemed to have forgotten...

Loki isn't the only frame in this game nor is he the main subject of this thread. All those continuously focusing solely on Loki are derailing this thread.

all 4 skills maxed, continuity, streamline, flow, overextended maxed, vigor if you want a little bit of substance incase a team mate runs behind you etc just enough of a buffer and you can switch it out for a stamina mod or another range mod, and fleeting 2 from the top, following your change and the values FE already has loki is not affected by your change, you make up + 50% range, the negative str of overextended is a bit pointless, you also would have 15.6 sec invis costing just about 15 or less you can afford to make it cheaper with maxing you then eff/-range FE to get it down further, that way you still have  near 30m RD(still at a + range value), your still at a + efficiency of invis, switch teleport still has added range, longer duration on decoy as well, how is loki,your main and favorite frame, negatively affected by this change?

[SquirmyBurrito]

all 4 skills maxed, continuity, streamline, flow, overextended maxed, vigor if you want a little bit of substance incase a team mate runs behind you etc just enough of a buffer and you can switch it out for a stamina mod or another range mod, and fleeting 2 from the top, following your change and the values FE already has loki is not affected by your change, you make up + 50% range, the negative str of overextended is a bit pointless, you also would have 15.6 sec invis costing just about 15 or less you can afford to make it cheaper with maxing you then eff/-range FE to get it down further, that way you still have  near 30m RD(still at a + range value), your still at a + efficiency of invis, switch teleport still has added range, longer duration on decoy as well, how is loki,your main and favorite frame, negatively affected by this change?

 

I don't think you understand what 'not affected' means. RD ends up with less range. That by itself is a change. Switch teleport also ends up with less range. 

 

Using OE to counter nu-FE means you used two slots to increase your range by 4.8 meters (was 20, is now 24.8) and decrease your energy cost by 60%. The less range you can get on RD, the less effective it is. The more enemies that can go unaffected per cast equals more damage in, which equates to a higher chance of you catching a bullet. You're trying so hard and you're failing just as hard.

 

I've already explained how loki is affected, you can keep trying to brush it off but that doesn't change the facts. Less range on an ability that relies on range is a change. Whether or not he is my main is irrelevant keep your thinly veiled ad hominem to yourself.

 

Now I'll end this by pointing something out: Loki isn't the only frame in this game, his two unaffected abilities represent 2.6% of all abilities in this game. 2.6% of 25% as opposed to the 75% that ARE affected by this change. Current FE also only affects two of his abilities, so 2.6% of the 39.5% abilities unaffected.

 

Edit: I'm heading to work, I'll be back to repeat myself and dodge your accusations and ad hominems later.

Edited May 11, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[sanj66]

I don't think you understand what 'not affected' means. RD ends up with less range. That by itself is a change. Switch teleport also ends up with less range. 

 

Using OE to counter nu-FE means you used two slots to increase your range by 4.8 meters (was 20, is now 24.8) and decrease your energy cost by 60%. The less range you can get on RD, the less effective it is. The more enemies that can go unaffected per cast equals more damage in, which equates to a higher chance of you catching a bullet. You're trying so hard and you're failing just as hard.

 

I've already explained how loki is affected, you can keep trying to brush it off but that doesn't change the facts. Less range on an ability that relies on range is a change. Whether or not he is my main is irrelevant keep your thinly veiled ad hominem to yourself.

 

Now I'll end this by pointing something out: Loki isn't the only frame in this game, his two unaffected abilities represent 2.6% of all abilities in this game. 2.6% of 25% as opposed to the 75% that ARE affected by this change. Current FE also only affects two of his abilities, so 2.6% of the 39.5% abilities unaffected.

 

Edit: I'm heading to work, I'll be back to repeat myself and dodge your accusations and ad hominems later.

your version of FE renders narrow minded pointless so your swapping out NM for OE, its a direct change so its not an extra slot used, you dont have to use a maxed nu-FE so you wont end at 24.8m, plus you still have the slot wherei put vigor in you can put stretch, put OE in the polarized slot and stretch in a non polarized slot, you still end up at over 30+m, even without it the point being all of loki's skill are still at + values, there is no negative or downside, he operates above base on all skills.

[K0bra]

Sry i think its a very very bad idea.The Corrupted Mods balance themself.You would destroy so much builds and buff some Warframes over the sky.

No way and i think Fleeting Expertise is completely fine.

[RealPandemonium]

The bottom line here, IMO, is that FE is pretty much standard in virtually every warframe build.  Two slots are eaten by efficiency almost always, so why not remove +efficiency mods and rescale power costs so that they are 6 12 18 25 or something similar?  Blind Rage and the most exploitable abilities would be adjusted accordingly.   This would free up two mod slots for more customization while retaining the fun factor of being able to use abilities freely. 

Edited May 11, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[Oriviagene]

Nothing should be changed...

If FE wud be changed,change it to 100% energy efficiency :o

[VentiGlondi]

Nothing should be changed...

If FE wud be changed,change it to 100% energy efficiency :o

Might as well remove the enemies