Toggle = Go Get Soda, Make Sandwich

[vergol]

According to DE, the main justification for nerfing Snow Globe was that Frost players would sit there, hitting '3' periodically, and not do much else.  I believe the exact words from a devstream were "we don't want a skill where a player could just hit a button then go get a soda, come back, hit a button, make a sandwich, come back, etc...".

 

So now 13.3 rolls around, and at least three warframe abilities have been given the 'toggle' mechanic.  You hit a button, the ability starts up and lasts until your energy is depleted (total duration and rate of depletion likely subject to mods and auras).

 

Fully duration-modded Snow Globe could/can last a good 30 seconds or so.  The duration of the toggle-able skills in 13.3 can reach an impressive 60-75 seconds (player feedback and tested myself with Hydroid's undertow); 2-3 minutes if you use Flow.  Thus: press a button, go get soda, come back, press a button, make sandwich, come back, rinse, repeat.

 

Am i missing something here?  The toggle mechanic now practically encourages that behavior across several frames, possibly more in the future.  So what's DE's justification now?

 

And before you start throwing the "Snow Globe scaled infinitely with higher levels" argument at me, consider Hydroid's Undertow.  Undertow is to melee/infested what Snow Globe was to grineer/corpus/ranged.  Even more so, considering Snow Globe outlived its usefulness when the enemies decided to give you a hug.

 

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UPDATE 5/15:

 

I rest my case.

Edited May 15, 2014 by vergol

[Brynslustafir]

Yeah, I don't follow DE's train of thought at all. 

[sickness24]

not going to argue with you there. but if you run out of energy with your toggle skill you better have stuff dead because you cant go back in your toggle 

[ShadowDragon000]

First off, snow globe could last well over a minute, it was an near perfect barrier that required almost no thought and it could be also be modded to be very energy efficient providing infinite snow globes with very little effort. All Frost had to do was keep the bubble up. Banshee can not move or fight while hers is going and is out of energy when it is over a, the mechanic is entirely different. I hate you go away.

 

edit wording.

Edited May 15, 2014 by ShadowDragon000

[VKhaun]

Not because people can, but because people do.

 

Nothing in the game is more OP than Medium Team Restore Packs and they're made of nanospores, but no one uses them.

 

No one is going to sit there and eat lunch while they watch things take double digit tics of damage from Undertow.

[Mcl_Blue]

They just implemented this. Don't think it'll just stay like this forever.

[Noble_Cactus]

Hmm, can you use Energy Restores while using Undertow and Absorb? You can when using Sound Quake.

[vergol]

No one is going to sit there and eat lunch while they watch things take double digit tics of damage from Undertow.

 

Just like no one sat there and made sandwiches while periodically casting Snow Globe.  A fix to a non-existing problem.

[RealPandemonium]

Toggle is currently broken and slaughters your energy reserves.  

[vergol]

Toggle is currently broken and slaughters your energy reserves.  

 

If a 1-3 minute Undertow is "broken", then I fear to think what "fixed" will look like.

[VKhaun]

Just like no one sat there and made sandwiches while periodically casting Snow Globe.  A fix to a non-existing problem.

 

That's just not correct. Sitting in snowglobe was THE standard for gameplay in Corpus and Grineer defense.

[vergol]

That's just not correct. Sitting in snowglobe was THE standard for gameplay in Corpus and Grineer defense.

 

Killing enemies, collecting energy, ammo, loot, and reviving team members doesn't count, right?

[VKhaun]

Killing enemies, collecting energy, ammo, loot, and reviving team members doesn't count, right?

 

You're not making sense anymore. You think they nerfed snowglobe just because it lasted a long time? All they had to do was reduce duration if that's all that mattered.

[SgtFlex]

If a 1-3 minute Undertow is "broken", then I fear to think what "fixed" will look like.

I've never used hydroid, and am fully unaware whether undertow is actually useful, but considering it can suck enemies and drown them, I guess it can if it lasts 2-3 minutes. What I think vergol VKhaun meant is abilities like Sound Quake on Banshee, which consumes a ridiculous amount of energy to be even worth using. Sure it stuns, but there's a lot more you can do rather than keep a single ability toggled for 1-3 minutes. I get DE when they said that you can't just press something and leave, but you could be doing a lot more. Whereas I think snow globe you just left and let it shield whatever.

Edited May 15, 2014 by SgtFlex

[Hybridon]

If a 1-3 minute Undertow is "broken", then I fear to think what "fixed" will look like.

 

Absorb and Sound Quake make you run out of energy really quick.

 

Only Undertow has such efficiency, and add into account that it already was a ridiculously high duration power before the change, so you tested the wron ability. That one already allowed you to make a sandwich, get a soda and play the ukelele before it ended :)

[Vargras]

Undertow has always lasted a long time. The patch changed nothing.

 

Absorb and Sound Quake apparently eat energy like crazy though, so good luck having those last long enough for you to afk.

[zebar1313]

Also with regards to undertow catching all the infested... Um, you do realize that they spawn a decent amount of the parasitic leaders in the survivals or defenses that hydroid can be somewhat useful in right? Since it now runs on your energy, if you suck up one of those leaders and you're making food your gonna be pretty screwed. 

Sound quake can be toggled now to solve the issue of her being stuck in one place for 10-15 seconds, Try having a Corpus Drone from a fusion moa float above you while you grab a sandwich, you will die. 
Absorb, well haven't played that because i hate nyx. Her appearance reminds me to much of her male counter part, excalibur.... But i would assume this would suffer from parasites as well, and not only that but you won't have any energy left after using it for the duration. 

 

In my opinion i think that this is a good fix. Bless Needed a nerf, and this new version makes you actually have to keep track of a teams health instaed of just sitting still and pressing 4. 

 

And in regards to frosts bubble getting a nerf? I still haven't seen it. I've played a 83 minute corpus match and the bubble still held up to 3 corpus techs so idk if i'm just cool, or my frost never got nerfed. So i really don't see why this thread is even existence other than to troll. 

[Noble_Cactus]

Also with regards to undertow catching all the infested... Um, you do realize that they spawn a decent amount of the parasitic leaders in the survivals or defenses that hydroid can be somewhat useful in right? Since it now runs on your energy, if you suck up one of those leaders and you're making food your gonna be pretty screwed. 

Sound quake can be toggled now to solve the issue of her being stuck in one place for 10-15 seconds, Try having a Corpus Drone from a fusion moa float above you while you grab a sandwich, you will die. 

Absorb, well haven't played that because i hate nyx. Her appearance reminds me to much of her male counter part, excalibur.... But i would assume this would suffer from parasites as well, and not only that but you won't have any energy left after using it for the duration. 

 

In my opinion i think that this is a good fix. Bless Needed a nerf, and this new version makes you actually have to keep track of a teams health instaed of just sitting still and pressing 4. 

 

And in regards to frosts bubble getting a nerf? I still haven't seen it. I've played a 83 minute corpus match and the bubble still held up to 3 corpus techs so idk if i'm just cool, or my frost never got nerfed. So i really don't see why this thread is even existence other than to troll. 

 

The intent is good. But try using Sound Quake for more than 4 seconds. You're going to be wasting a lot of your energy for a very small stun, far less efficient than what you would have gotten with the old quake.

[zebar1313]

The intent is good. But try using Sound Quake for more than 4 seconds. You're going to be wasting a lot of your energy for a very small stun, far less efficient than what you would have gotten with the old quake.

4 second quake drained 45 energy on my banshee. compared to my sound quake before doing 95 energy for about 8-10 seconds. Same time, i can save myself if i have any issues. Efficiency wise it's about the same in the long run for me. Only difference seems to be the fact that you can make it last longer. But people still consider it to be (under powered) my clan mates sold their banshee since it didn't get its (buff) It does good damage/CC but my friends just don't like that. 

[Methanoid]

That's just not correct. Sitting in snowglobe was THE standard for gameplay in Corpus and Grineer defense.

 

was?  technically it still is, the only change was that the globe can break early reinforcing the need to stay inside.

[notionphil]

Just like no one sat there and made sandwiches while periodically casting Snow Globe.  A fix to a non-existing problem.

 

Toggling on absorb, undertow or soundquake  (or invisibility) might be an efficient 'fire and forget' way to go get a soda, (or AFK) as you suggest...however, it's not a very efficient way to complete a mission or get lots of kills - especially compared to actively playing, or using abilities like Bastille/Chaos.

 

You'll also be OOP when you come back. There's literally no point in doing this unless you actually do need to go get a soda.

 

Snowglobe was a cheap and effective 'fire and forget' way significantly improve team performance/survivability in one of the most commonly played game type...not really a great comparison with the new toggle powers.

[Rakosta_Kai]

According to DE, the main justification for nerfing Snow Globe was that Frost players would sit there, hitting '3' periodically, and not do much else.  I believe the exact words from a devstream were "we don't want a skill where a player could just hit a button then go get a soda, come back, hit a button, make a sandwich, come back, etc...".

 

 

I think about that comment a lot actually...

The solution for Frost wound up being having to re-cast Snowglobe every 4 seconds or so in extreme high level defense missions.

 

All I can say is that while you are still hitting 3 periodically,  you definitely don't have the time to get that soda now.

[tris1]

DE at the moment i think have a dictionary that has buff and nerfed explained the wrong way round so far all I've seen is buffs (I call them actual nerfs as i don't seen any need for what they do half the time)

 

Edited May 15, 2014 by tris1

[SlyBoots]

the justification for the snowglobe change was rather ridiculous but some kind of change was the right thing to do, even if we got a somewhat unimaginative one. the addition of armor into the formular seems rather poor, trying to encourage modding for a single ability so i still think snowglobe could use tweaks but it does still work as defense and it also does work fully narrow minded as kind of strategic slow fields on the map (as a clan mate uses it, though that takes a lot of effort).

 

toggled absorb/wubwub/death puddle feel very good for the flow of the game (you can respond to stuff immediately), so all that's needed is capped duration.

Edited May 15, 2014 by SlyBoots

[Dalu__Ka]

...

 

toggled absorb/wubwub/death puddle feel very good for the flow of the game (you can respond to stuff immediately), so all that's needed is capped duration.

 

Very agreed.

I wouldn't mind seeing toggles for a lot more abilities.