De. You Can't Ignore This Any More. (Penta, Ogris And Angstrum Feedback)

[kaboomonme]

This isn't a game that requires that level of tactical planning.

It's a throw away FTP mob shooter.

When they change the game from killing millions of brain dead clones, to a killing 20 to 40 intelligent, reactive, proactive AIs, that flank, take cover, hide etc, then changing ammo would make sense.

And then when people ask for AI improvements, people tell them there's no point, since you would destroy the enemies with your OP multi-forma'd weapons before the AI reacts, hence concluding that there is no point in improving AI.

 

In this sense, you have to improve AI before improving weapons, but you have to improve weapons before improving AI. See how this contradiction thing goes both ways?

 

Edited May 27, 2014 by kaboomonme

[chaotea]

I do somewhat agree, though i think the self damage is a good balance, if for different reasons. I was ranking my angstrum yesterday and took it as my only weapon in a mission. It did make it much harder to play as if i needed ammo i needed to get close to enemies in order to pick it up, which ment not firing. Still i do agree with making sniper ammo special ammo.

[Second_Measure]

 

 

On top of everything, I never see anyone complaining about weapons that aren't explosive with nearly infinite ammo reserves.I don't see anyone crying about the Latron Prime. I don't see people upset about Tigris having infinite ammo. nor do I see anyone complaining about the Attica with it's inexhaustible ammo pool. I believe a lot of people simply want explosive weaponry nerfed because of "kill stealing" in a game based entirely on co-op where experience is shared.

 

But many use those weapons very aggressively, especially in Mobile defenses, and needlessly push the enemy away from the others and from the objective they should defend. I notice that on Kappa, for example, when they go into the middle during Terminal Defenses and push the Corpus/Grineer spawn past the door to the next Tile and ahead.

 

The others need to choose now :

- They follow that player to still receive experience/resources/mods, risking that the Terminal gets jumped when they are away

or

- They stay and defend, being on the safe side at the cost of no experience/resources/mods.

 

The experience share is limited in range, so having a Rambo running around and blowing everthing up with just one rocket isn't helping the team if that one is 2 tiles away with all the enemies on him.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Second_Measure

[Mokkania]

How is that different from someone using a Soma or Boltor on something low level and just spraying everywhere before you can get a shot or swing off from an unleveled weapon? At higher level play there's plenty of enemies spawning for everyone to kill, not to mention the Ogris and Penta are limited by player perception and proper circumstance.

 

Whereas the weapons everyone loves to cry about more such as the Soma and Boltor Prime require no such conscious effort to take your time to aim and consider terrain angles/enemy position in the hands of most players and get equal results if you put Shred on and can spread your shots properly. 

 

This is as close to asking someone 'Umad?' as I'm going to get because as far as I can tell that's the only reason you're here. 

 

Naturally if you have more to add on to this to change my views I heartily welcome it.  

The problem come from the concept weapon basis, there are difference between a rocket launcher that can kill theorically 2500 ennemies without having to pick up ammo and Latron prime which can do the same only with punch through mods and some skewering skills. Also Soma and Boltor have different ammo efficiency (soma in particular has it bad relatively speaking, boltor is kind of the wonder of the wonder of weapons but in case you don't know there is a thread saying that boltor should be nerfed because it has no tradeoff)

 

The next thing you know we will have a special weapon slot for launchers so we can carry a worthwhile primary, side arm and then our super duper kills a couple of bad guys rocket launchers.

What's next?

Ammo bunkers in every level? Weapon lockers? Picking up the bad guys weapons?

Why not, what people are doing on the forums is trying to add gameplay content to the game as for whether the idea is bad or not...

 

This isn't a game that requires that level of tactical planning.

It's a throw away FTP mob shooter.

When they change the game from killing millions of brain dead clones, to a killing 20 to 40 intelligent, reactive, proactive AIs, that flank, take cover, hide etc, then changing ammo would make sense.

I do agree with that, ammo is not a priority with the way the game is, whatever...

[Muminidas]

Woah! OP feedback is amazing. I've never really thought about rocket weapons ammo changes, it'd be nice to have. 

Some ppl would hate, but meeeh! It's for the sake of good Warframe future. :) 

[Kashiki]

Wow. I am honestly lost for words.

Oh wait, no I'm not. Low fire rate? Low DPS?! How the #£%¥ does 200+ rocket capacity have anything to do with low fire rate? They already make that up with their HUGE AREA OF EFFECT EXPLOSION DAMAGE. THEY SHOOT GRENADES. What, were you expecting 400 rpm for a rocket launcher?!?

Jesus, I thought I saw it all, I thought I saw it all!

 

Try to keep yourself calm there, kid, we heard your argument. You're not a Warframe master.

 

 

Woah! OP feedback is amazing. I've never really thought about rocket weapons ammo changes, it'd be nice to have. 

Some ppl would hate, but meeeh! It's for the sake of good Warframe future. :) 

 

I sincerely hope that the ammo count for rockets isn't the thing that will make or break Warframe's future.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Kashiki

[(PSN)docolson]

I dream of the day that I have 1000 rounds for my Grakata, and 500 for my Dex furis.

[Dreaming intensifies]

Medium team ammo restores= infinite ammo for any weapon.

Edited May 27, 2014 by (PS4)docolson

[zerogear5]

ammo should only be a focus for defense and survival. 

[AttAckA]

Penta, Ogris and now Angstrum.

What do these 3 weapons have in common?

They all have essentially infinite ammo, and they shoot explosives.

DE, I have been patient. I know you're still building the game, but this has gone on long enough.

Reduce the ammo count of these weapons to anywhere less than 50, change the Sniper Ammo to Speical Ammo, and have these weapons use Speical Ammo.

Rocket launchers have a trade off. Huge firepower, but limited shots available. These have huge firepower, but unlimited shots available.

I know I shouldn't compare Warframe to other games, but I will anyway.

Halo 3 has a rocket launcher that holds 2 rockets and 2 in reserve. Fire 2, reload, fire 2, and you're done. This is obviously for PvP balancing, so I don't want that little ammo. I want a fair tradeoff. Like the one we we're supposed to have with Rhino. Extremely durable, yet slow. Except he ties the fastest frame in the game in speed. The same thing is happening here. HUGE positive ZERO negative.

If this isn't fixed by Update 14, I guess I'll just cave in and accept that a grenade/rocket launcher using rifle ammo with 210 grenades/rockets is balanced.

Also their still completely silent.

Inb4 "it'z balanced cause u can kill urself"

Edit: After reading through the majority of these replies, I have concluded that it is in fact the Ammo System itself that needs to be looked at. Ammo 2.0 must revisit every single weapon and use ammo capacity as a balancing factor and this would in turn balance some of the more powerful weapons.

under 50 is insane. The ogris has extremely slow fire rate to begin with, large ammo supple for death and slow fire rate is fair... now under 200.. ok i can deal with that. and sniper rifle, yes thats agreeable as well.

[Morveyn]

This is a problem that falls into the fold of the fact that ammo management needs an overhaul from the ground up. Every weapon should have a unique ammo capacity tuned to its overal damage potential, mag size, RoF and so on. The heavy weapons like the Ogris, Penta, even the Torid should be no different, although the weapons that go bang should draw from a unique and harder-to-find ammo type, making them distinct as heavy weapons.

 

Frankly, I'd like to see the Ogris revisited as well. Drop the charge system, give it two rounds per magazine with almost no refire time, and make the reload more remarkable. On top of making the weapon do what it looks like it does, it'd differentiate it significantly from the penta, trading crowd control for long-ranged face removal of everything in that general direction.

 

Regardless of what happens to the explosive weapons, making it so that you're forced to make each trigger pull mean something, rather than just thoughtlessly blow everything you see to hell, is what should be the focus here. Make you feel like you're actually using a heavy weapon, rather than a straight upgrade to your fancy autorifle.

[Seele]

Again, even though hyperbole it's irrelevant.

It's entirely relevant, which is why I mentioned it. It was to demonstrate the value of balance even in cooperative PvE gameplay. If that doesn't do it for you, consider the fact that DE has balanced warframes and weapons in the past so they, as developers, value balance in their PvE game. If you disagree perhaps this game is not for you.

 

 

You cannot, others can. You seem to think it's no longer fair after you've done it. I use Penta as my main weapon and I still go down after each wave for ammo (because I like looking at 540, OCD type thing). Penta/Ogris are billed as extremely ammo efficient, one of those reasons is the 540 ammo. It having 540 does not affect you in any way shape or form.

I acknowledged the people who like playing that, however they happen derive enjoyment from it. And it does affect me, because I can equip it and have 540 rockets/grenades for no reason.

 

 

Then it would become completely worthless. Somebody else using an explosive weapon does not affect you, everybody gets exp regardless.

It's been stated repeatedly by both sides that reducing max ammo would effectively do very little to how well the weapons actually perform. You would possibly be forced to use a mutator mod or ammo restores. It would not become 'completely worthless', but then you probably think the same of Nova and Trinity don't you? Don't mean to project, but that's concrete evidence that DE's ideals don't align with yours.

 

 

This is Warframe, not Team Wartress 2

We should remove mobility from the game, because this is Warframe, not Super Mario Bros. We should remove guns, because this is Warframe, not Contra.

Following successful models from well-established games is a surefire way to ensure success. I drew a comparison to a successful model that I recommend this game follows. I did not suggest making this game in any other way similar to TF2, please stop embellishing.

 

 

 

This hurts you, the guy with the Penta/Ogris is helping you kill/get exp. There is literally no downside other than "I hate him not running out of ammo/getting all the kills". That is the crux of every argument against the ammo. 

Oh is that what it is? I suppose my perspective on the matter has just been wrong! People who wipe the map for me are like community servants. How altruistic of them! They're just helping my misguided soul get more affinity for my inferior weaponry, that's all. Perhaps we should all use Nova, Penta, Brakk, and Dual Ichor and play Mercury to help out new players! I'm certain they'll appreciate watching the game win itself rather than feeling like they participated at all.

 

 

And? If people want to use the aforementioned weapons they will. You can kill enemies from a distance before a Penta user will be able to get them or an Ogris rocket reaches them.

Are you seriously implying that the purpose of weapons besides Penta and Ogris is to pick targets that were pending doom from the aforementioned already? Because that's what it sounds like you're implying. Shoot these guys before the rocket hits them! See, you got two kills out of that group. This is balanced and fun!

[PeterKha]

under 50 is insane. The ogris has extremely slow fire rate to begin with, large ammo supple for death and slow fire rate is fair... now under 200.. ok i can deal with that. and sniper rifle, yes thats agreeable as well.

Not really, I barely even use 50 ammo when I'm using Ogris. I can clear a wave in like 1 - 2 clips all the way up to about 50. Which is like what, 5 - 10 ammo? Jump down and you'd be getting your ammo's worth back. 

 

And if you're really running out of Ammo, that's what ammo packs are for.

[Seele]

Keyword, you. Cannot "balance" a weapon based on one perspective. Furthermore 50 is a joke.

Yet 72 for the horrifically-powerful-by-comparison Vulkar and Miter is reasonable?

[Davoodoo]

Keyword, you. Cannot "balance" a weapon based on one perspective. Furthermore 50 is a joke.

If you ask me i would cut that 5 times. 10 rockets is enough to not run out. 30 grenades for penta.

Also i would look at ogris and penta reload times, at least 4 seconds for ogris with 0.5s charge(so missclick wont cost you life), only 2 rockets in magazine and at least 3 seconds for penta. I would also raise ogris dmg and lower penta dmg.

 

That would bring ogris and penta closer to what i would expect from rocket launcher and grenade launcher

Edited May 27, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Seele]

Right, so because you want it nerfed into the ground it should be, right? Even though it doesn't affect you in the slightest.....

 

Penta and Ogris being at the 520 is fine, their having high ammo does not affect you in any way shape or form. See my earlier point.

You can't have it both ways either. Something has to give. Either everything has the possibility to suffer ammo shortages or nothing does.

And I don't see you advocating for other weapons to receive a higher ammo ceiling.

So are you complacent with having an oversight to exploit, or do you want everything to have unlimited ammo, in essence or actuality? It's one or the other.

[Davoodoo]

Right, so because you want it nerfed into the ground it should be, right? Even though it doesn't affect you in the slightest.....

 

Penta and Ogris being at the 520 is fine, their having high ammo does not affect you in any way shape or form. See my earlier point.

By ground you mean what?? still being able to oneshot crowds, with suggested dmg increase i would increase its oneshot ability by another 5-10 lvls.

 

I dont believe that ammo reserves is only problem of explosive weapons, but i surely know that reducing it wont change a thing. 

 

I cant remember even 1 case of going below 500 ammo on penta or ogris and even though i dont have so much memories with angstrum i never got below 150 on it either.

So yea 10 rockets in reserve is probably more than enough.

[Morveyn]

Oh good, the thread's devolved into back and forth bickering. How constructive.

[OptimumBow0]

-snip-

 

And where did you get that idea? There is totally a difference, as long as changes made to the ammo system don't end up being wimpy. For example: Angstrum's ammo capacity is reduced to 180. That has no impact; I would go from 70 charge shots to 60, and I wouldn't ever notice the difference.

 

Now, firstly, I'm not the only one who has said "it would feel better", but that's just part of why I want the ammo to be changed up.

 

Secondly, it wouldn't reduce content trivialization, rather, gameplay trivialization; where's the strategy, the intelligence, in loosing a barrage of ballistic projectiles, blowing away a wave of enemies, and then going on to rinse and repeat without having to worry about making a single, tactical decision?

 

I mean, what's the point of an ammo system if the player doesn't have to worry about ammo in 90% of the situations they play into? (Unless you've got an inefficient bullet hose)

 

Off topic:

Thirdly, I see you're pretty darn worried about "rainbow builds". Well, I've got two things to say to that:

 

1) Rainbow builds nowadays result in Blast + Corrosive, and the only thing that would actually, really be useful for is killing Lephantis and Ancient Infested.

2)As for that extra damage that is always applied, I do agree, rainbow builds dish out a good bit of hurt, making them good all-around builds. But that's just it, they're all-around. and are easily outperformed by more specialized elemental combos (Radiation for Orokin, Viral for Fleshies, Magnetic for Corpus, etc...,etc...). Rainbow, in my opinion, is a lazy bum's build and a waste of mod space, and it really isn't that big of an issue.

 

Finally, don't you dare use that "There's more important things like U14" argument, because there's always the time for Ammo 2.0 afterwards. It doesn't really matter when it happens, but more so for it to actually happen.

[izzatuw]

I really don't see the point of nerfing Ammo capacity. It's a PVE to begin with. I mean ammo can be dropped everywhere so what's the point? Unless it's PVP sure nerd ammo.

[Seele]

I really don't see the point of nerfing Ammo capacity. It's a PVE to begin with. I mean ammo can be dropped everywhere so what's the point? Unless it's PVP sure nerd ammo.

Ammo was included as a balancing factor and these weapons have been skating by.

We know ammo was considered a balancing factor because:

-Different weapon categories have different maximum amounts and restored amounts per pickup.

-Different ammo drops have varying drop frequency.

-There are mods to improve ammo economy or carrying capacity.

-Grakata has more carrying capacity than other rifles, presumably as compensation for its high fire rate but low damage per shot.

-You may craft an item to restore ammo in the same vein as restoring health, shields, and energy.

 

So that's an undeniable truth.

You can take Karak, Grakata, Miter, Dex Furis, Twin Vipers, Hikou, Gorgon, Supra, hell even some more 'standard' or 'basic' rifles like Braton/Prime or Dera, and even in exterminate missions they could run low on, or out of, ammo, if ammo consumption is not properly mitigated or compensated for. It's another thing to consider when you use any of those weapons.

 

Now tell me, how many times do you see any of those used in high level play? Zero? Why yes, you see them zero times. Because why deal with low-end DPS weapons that also have to run out of ammo all the goddamn time? It's more hassle than they're worth.

 

Ogris and Penta can do what any of those weapons can do with an entire magazine with one or two shots.

 

An unmodded Gorgon (which draws from the same mod pool as Ogris) deals 25 damage a shot, with a 90 round magazine and 12.5 fire rate. So, including the spool time, you're looking at taking about 8 seconds to expend the magazine, which would inflict 2250 damage before multipliers.

In 8 seconds, the Ogris can fire 3 rockets which deal 650 each and hit both the target and everything around it. The total comes to 1950, lower than Gorgon, assuming there was only one target - against groups the damage is multiplied to match, same isn't said for Gorgon.

But either way, Gorgon took 90 rounds of the same ammo of which Ogris used 3.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Seele

[letir]

10 is fine, if one weapon can take down full wave in 1 shot.

 

540? Not even funny.

[izzatuw]

10 is fine, if one weapon can take down full wave in 1 shot.

 

540? Not even funny.

I hope you're being sarcastic because 10 is stupidly not okay. Than make all ammo turn into Penta ammo without a mutation to make 10 fine

[Arblarg]

Totally realistic picking up more rockets dropped by enemies that don't shoot rockets through your feet

Totally realistic picking up any ammo from infested since they don't use any guns, or picking up bullet ammo from corpus who use energy weapons, laser ammo from grineer who use bullets, etc. Every enemy that has a gun should drop an ammo pick up, since I highly doubt they expended all their own infinite ammo in the spam of their 5 second life.

 

A lot of things in the game don't make logical sense in the slightest, but it is for the purpose of gameplay.

 

Bows / bolt weapons need retrievable ammo, snipers just flat out need more ammo, fully automatic rifles need more ammo or need to benefit more from pickups, explosives if nothing else need at least 256 shots.

 

Ammo shouldn't even be an issue to where the ammo mutation mods are needed.

[Azawarau]

This is a problem that falls into the fold of the fact that ammo management needs an overhaul from the ground up. Every weapon should have a unique ammo capacity tuned to its overal damage potential, mag size, RoF and so on. The heavy weapons like the Ogris, Penta, even the Torid should be no different, although the weapons that go bang should draw from a unique and harder-to-find ammo type, making them distinct as heavy weapons.

 

Frankly, I'd like to see the Ogris revisited as well. Drop the charge system, give it two rounds per magazine with almost no refire time, and make the reload more remarkable. On top of making the weapon do what it looks like it does, it'd differentiate it significantly from the penta, trading crowd control for long-ranged face removal of everything in that general direction.

 

Regardless of what happens to the explosive weapons, making it so that you're forced to make each trigger pull mean something, rather than just thoughtlessly blow everything you see to hell, is what should be the focus here. Make you feel like you're actually using a heavy weapon, rather than a straight upgrade to your fancy autorifle.

Ogris isnt CC?

 

Have you used an ogris with speed trigger...?

 

Nothing touches the pod

 

/On topic now

 

As a person who has a 6 formad ogris as their most used weapon even after not touching it in ages

 

Nerf it

 

Its too good

[Tatersail]

I would be happy to see these weapons nerfed

I don't understand why they have the highest base damage per shot of all guns?

 

they have some of the highest burst dps around, able to do 60k damage aoe in a single rocket.

The argument that there actual "dps is low" is Stupid and pointless because this "DPS" only matters past level 100.  these weapons burst with a single shot kills instantly making them the "top dps" until your sat in a defense or surv for at least an hour which over 98% of the people in this game Don't do.

 

before everyone starts the QQ, ask the simple question, what would you rather have on your team, 3x 4 forma'ed soma/synapse/lanka/Dread/top tier gun players or a single ogris player, I know which I would pick.

 

The recruitment posts, "LFG - XXX - Must have Ogris or Penta" is as much proof that these guns have "broken the game" (as a loose all encompassing phrase that is in it self meaningless)

 

 

Suggested solutions;

 

They should have there damage split between all targets. - the blizzard solution / nerf

or ammo reduced to 10

perhaps Pull from sniper ammo pool

even a slight reduction in damage, perhaps make them do less damage per shot but with a faster fire rate, so you can actually see the lower overall dps, currently you can't, as they 1 shot.