Forget Better Ai - We Need Better Dumb Enemies

[notionphil]

The problem with the AI isn't the individual AI, it's the 'game Master AI'.  If enemies would spawn in behind you intelligently and flank, or come down from areas above you down onto your head, they'd be pretty effective, at least until people got used to that behavior.

 

Artificial means of making them invulnerable to certain tactics will only work so long.  To continue to make things interesting, DE either has to continue providing new content, or there has to be some sort of emergent gameplay where the enemies continue to adjust their tactics, i.e. learn from the way players are playing against them.  Otherwise I'll just look at the enemy, do a jump-flip over their head and shoot them in the back (or through their shield).

 

The "composer AI" needs to be addressed as well, but that's a different topic.

 

Adding skill based challenge to enemies, such as your example of having to flip over an enemy and shoot it in the head is not typically regarded as "artificial" difficulty.

 

Artificial difficulty is normally in reference to adding more enemies, or simply tweaking numerical values (aka scaling). The goal isn't to make WF infinitely challenging in one pass - it's to add nuanced tactical and skill based challenges to combat to make it more engaging.

 

Even your example of flipping over an enemy to take him down would be a significant change compared to what you currently need to do to overcome any enemy currently in game - point your mouse in its general direction and press any key.

[notlamprey]

I've mentioned this in a different thread, but the direction Warframe needs to head in terms of difficulty is awareness-based difficulty.

 

Enemies need to be difficult because they do things:

 

1. that I am expected to pay attention to and

 

2. that I have the means to pay attention to.

 

To me, that's a problem we can definitely solve. We already have enemy types that spawn according to clear rule sets. Why not make behaviors that depend on clear rule sets also?

 

As a rough example, Grineer grenade throwing behavior can depend on level, absence of melee allies on the board, or enemy placement. We could do this with practically any behavior to add awareness-based difficulty. Grenades hurt. Currently, our UI/HUD doesn't give us any way of tracking them. Give us one, and you have awareness-based difficulty.

 

With a little creativity, you can extend this idea to the recently showcased enemy types. Even something as simple as displaying a warning or marker on-HUD when one of these enemies spawns, or first uses its special ability, would go a long way towards making the enemy feel fair.

 

If anyone thinks it would be helpful, I might start a series of threads based around Extra Credits game design concepts that seem most relevant to Warframe. I think our community needs to be better informed, and a common language for us to give feedback and DE to receive feedback is badly needed.

[Nagisawa]

Has no one watched the livestream? It was great. The Devs have some very interesting tricks up their sleeve I must request an attempt to include the essence of the OP. We REALLY like the ideas. 

YOU really liked the ideas.  I was disappointed.

[Nkomo-Sama]

I've mentioned this in a different thread, but the direction Warframe needs to head in terms of difficulty is awareness-based difficulty.

 

Enemies need to be difficult because they do things:

 

1. that I am expected to pay attention to and

 

2. that I have the means to pay attention to.

 

To me, that's a problem we can definitely solve. We already have enemy types that spawn according to clear rule sets. Why not make behaviors that depend on clear rule sets also?

 

As a rough example, Grineer grenade throwing behavior can depend on level, absence of melee allies on the board, or enemy placement. We could do this with practically any behavior to add awareness-based difficulty. Grenades hurt. Currently, our UI/HUD doesn't give us any way of tracking them. Give us one, and you have awareness-based difficulty.

 

With a little creativity, you can extend this idea to the recently showcased enemy types. Even something as simple as displaying a warning or marker on-HUD when one of these enemies spawns, or first uses its special ability, would go a long way towards making the enemy feel fair.

 

If anyone thinks it would be helpful, I might start a series of threads based around Extra Credits game design concepts that seem most relevant to Warframe. I think our community needs to be better informed, and a common language for us to give feedback and DE to receive feedback is badly needed.

I would love to know where the grenade is in relation to where I am. They seem to have uncanny aim and it is VERY difficult to avoid the blast with out a mobility/defensive powered frame...I'd say harder to avoid then the eximus auras.. I think there is a situational awareness however, that is currently employed by the eximus enemies... You see a ring around both nearby enemies and yourself indicating that you are in range of an aura...I'd like to see a thread on this and any more ideas you may have regarding situational awareness if you have the time to do so. I'd check it out

[Nkomo-Sama]

YOU really liked the ideas.  I was disappointed.

Fair enough. Btw I was talking about the OP I believe. As far as the livestream...sorry you were disappointed...why were you? What would you have rather seen? I liked that they took notice of this particular thread and intend to implement some of the ideas in the future. These things take time and I do not think they were willing to commit to what ideas just yet.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Nkomo-Sama

[--Q--uaint]

The problem with the AI isn't the individual AI, it's the 'game Master AI'.  If enemies would spawn in behind you intelligently and flank, or come down from areas above you down onto your head, they'd be pretty effective, at least until people got used to that behavior.

 

They CAN spawn behind you. Intelligently? I suppose it's possible, and might make things more interesting :P

 

Either way, spawning behind you is a really stupid mechanic when stealthing and should be removed.

 

 

 

On topic: They should totally make the only possible Shield Lancer Eximus have a mirrored shield and reflect all incoming damage. Including shots with punchthrough. lol, I can see the Soma self-kill rage threads even now......

[Viverim]

They CAN spawn behind you. Intelligently? I suppose it's possible, and might make things more interesting :P

 

Either way, spawning behind you is a really stupid mechanic when stealthing and should be removed.

 

 

 

On topic: They should totally make the only possible Shield Lancer Eximus have a mirrored shield and reflect all incoming damage. Including shots with punchthrough. lol, I can see the Soma self-kill rage threads even now......

 

I agree that once a room is cleared it should stay cleared.  Nothing more frustrating than doing a mostly successful stealth mission, and then that one guy you miss hits the alarm and you are swarmed from behind by enemies who spontaneously spawned from nowhere.

 

I disagree about reflected damage.  Unless you make it completely obvious then it's just another cheap mechanic.  Now, if your rounds traced back it might be more feasable, but if you are fighting in a crowd it can be extremely difficult to know you are shooting yourself when you can't see the bullet flight paths.

 

My thought on an enemy type which might make things more tricky is to have something like the Frost shield the Corpus have, but make that shield immune to your powers.  You would have to either shoot it with your guns (and possibly have a ranged damage defense, reducing damage by X%) or have to jump into Melee with it.  (Oh, and I'm not sure if the current Corpus frost extremis do this as I don't spam my powers, so it's never come up.)

 

Edited to add my reasoning (sorry, just woke up a little while ago)

This power shielded enemy would offer protection from the #4 room spam for the zerg minions (whatever faction they be), but would be an uncommon/rare enemy who wouldn't eliminate the use of a tenno's powers completely.  It is one means of reducing the reliance a lot of people have on the "enter room, press 4" technique.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Viverim

[notionphil]

I agree that once a room is cleared it should stay cleared.  Nothing more frustrating than doing a mostly successful stealth mission, and then that one guy you miss hits the alarm and you are swarmed from behind by enemies who spontaneously spawned from nowhere.

 

I disagree about reflected damage.  Unless you make it completely obvious then it's just another cheap mechanic.  Now, if your rounds traced back it might be more feasable, but if you are fighting in a crowd it can be extremely difficult to know you are shooting yourself when you can't see the bullet flight paths.

 

Both of your comments above reference an single important point that's not mentioned in the OP, but I really feel strongly about as well.

 

If you don't know whats happening, or why it's happening then it's not fun, smart or challenging. It's either confusing, cheap or unfair.

 

Making more enemies "flank" you with AI is pointless when they already simply spawn directly behind you. So that would have to be fixed before flanking would add anything at all besides more opportunities to shoot enemies out of cover.

 

Flanking is a tactical technique in a protracted firefight to try and get a better angle on a target who is behind cover. Or also used in squad formation to try and pin down a squad between two lines of fire. The 'risk' of leaving cover and flanking would really have little efficacy against a Tenno who can instantly catapult around the room.

 

WF throws tremendous crowds of enemies at you - it's typical to be totally surrounded by enemies and have maybe a half second to engage each.Thus, any special mechanics need to be visually distinct and rather obvious. Shooting at a shield which reflects back at you is OK, as long as maybe...those shots are turned to tracers so you can see whats happening. Otherwise, you'd just be taking damage from lord-knows-where.

[Renegade343]

Both of your comments above reference an single important point that's not mentioned in the OP, but I really feel strongly about as well.

 

If you don't know whats happening, or why it's happening then it's not fun, smart or challenging. It's either confusing, cheap or unfair.

 

Making more enemies "flank" you with AI is pointless when they already simply spawn directly behind you. So that would have to be fixed before flanking would add anything at all besides more opportunities to shoot enemies out of cover.

 

Flanking is a tactical technique in a protracted firefight to try and get a better angle on a target who is behind cover. Or also used in squad formation to try and pin down a squad between two lines of fire. The 'risk' of leaving cover and flanking would really have little efficacy against a Tenno who can instantly catapult around the room.

 

WF throws tremendous crowds of enemies at you - it's typical to be totally surrounded by enemies and have maybe a half second to engage each.Thus, any special mechanics need to be visually distinct and rather obvious. Shooting at a shield which reflects back at you is OK, as long as maybe...those shots are turned to tracers so you can see whats happening. Otherwise, you'd just be taking damage from lord-knows-where.

Speaking of spawning, I have an idea to make players less frustrated about that: 

 

You know all these red, locked doors we sometimes see?

 

We can use them to spawn enemies once the alarm is sounded (i.e. there is a white power button symbol on our maps). That means if there is no alarms sounded, enemies will not spawn in the rooms behind the player (sides [no more than 30˚ from the player] and front are fair game), as the red, locked doors now become their spawning point, and these only activate when an alarm is sounded. If the alarm is shut off, then these doors will not spawn any more enemies until the alarm is reactivated again. 

[notionphil]

Speaking of spawning, I have an idea to make players less frustrated about that: 

 

You know all these red, locked doors we sometimes see?

 

We can use them to spawn enemies once the alarm is sounded (i.e. there is a white power button symbol on our maps). That means if there is no alarms sounded, enemies will not spawn in the rooms behind the player (sides [no more than 30˚ from the player] and front are fair game), as the red, locked doors now become their spawning point, and these only activate when an alarm is sounded. If the alarm is shut off, then these doors will not spawn any more enemies until the alarm is reactivated again. 

 

Hey, that's a pretty darn good idea. Enemies should not spawn in cleared rooms unless the alarm is on.

 

Can you make a thread just about that topic? That needs to be a visible topic. +1

[Renegade343]

Hey, that's a pretty darn good idea. Enemies should not spawn in cleared rooms unless the alarm is on.

 

Can you make a thread just about that topic? That needs to be a visible topic. +1

I will most likely just add it into my thread of suggestions, as I have this obsession of sorting things into one place. 

 

The suggestion is just something I literally thought up in two minutes after reading the last two posts in this thread, so thanks for the compliment to that suggestion.

 

EDIT: Probably add that suggestion tomorrow or over the weekend, with one or two additions to my suggestion thread, as I do not feel updating my thread for these weekdays (tests upon tests demotivated me to just write down simple suggestions without dealing with code quirks and stuff). 

Edited June 10, 2014 by Renegade343

[gell]

People reacting by uninstalling or saying DE is just brushing things away are way off. I don't think they were brushing anything off. I do think they might have missed the point on some of the enemy designs as good engaging designs, though. e.g. DE thinks prosecutors are good design, but they are not. They are, at best, a good step in trying to make better enemies, but ultimately turn into RNG nonsense or making the player always carry all the elements (hey, if combined elements worked vs prosecutors, this point would be almost moot).

 

I don't feel DE brushes things off, but rather they might not quite understand what players are saying when talking about having more engaging combat. Some of the enemies they showed off looked really good though, low HP aside. The actual designs were mostly interesting and look like they would make for combat where I actually need to change what I'm doing for a second, so that is a good step.

 

What I'm more afraid of with DE is that they might not quite achieve that with most of the game, not without trying, but because of either programmer time limits, or just trying to keep up with a constant update schedule. But I do think that the time they spend on making the game better as a whole will come back to them in spades, so it's worth the time to retool the existing enemies (a little cannon fodder is good for players though, see Titanfall grunts).

[Innocent_Flower]

Nah, They're a bad step. 

 

 

DE should invite notionphil et al to DE headquaters and he can become fuhrer for the next week. Warframe improves by 76%

[notionphil]

People reacting by uninstalling or saying DE is just brushing things away are way off. I don't think they were brushing anything off. I do think they might have missed the point on some of the enemy designs as good engaging designs, though. e.g. DE thinks prosecutors are good design, but they are not. They are, at best, a good step in trying to make better enemies, but ultimately turn into RNG nonsense or making the player always carry all the elements (hey, if combined elements worked vs prosecutors, this point would be almost moot).

 

I don't feel DE brushes things off, but rather they might not quite understand what players are saying when talking about having more engaging combat. Some of the enemies they showed off looked really good though, low HP aside. The actual designs were mostly interesting and look like they would make for combat where I actually need to change what I'm doing for a second, so that is a good step.

 

Storytime: "You versus the new enemies; a worst case scenario"

 

You just ventilated a Toxic Ancient, and you see two Disruptors approaching behind the crowd of chargers gnashing at your heels. You remember that there were numerous leapers closing in behind you. That Saryn with the Boltor Prime may have taken them out, but you're not sure - it's OK they weren't a pressing threat. A quick melee deals with the chargers, and just as the Disruptors enter engagement range, you melee slide into...oh. crap.

 

Literally. You're now sitting in an AoE poison cloud, fired by an enemy you didn't see, because he's behind the mass of infested you're facing.

 

You try and roll out through the crowd of chargers and end up in an "infested slow spot" on the ground, which you also didn't see because it was covered in infested. So now you're moving at half speed.

 

Where were those Disruptors in relatio....Ah..yes. you just got disrupted.

 

One of those "bursters" is near enough to explode, which covers you in more movement slowing crawlys.

 

You finally slide out of that cloud and...crap. Again. An infested drone "dropped" off a few cralwers, along with another AoE poison cloud at your location. You're still surrounded by chargers and leapers, so you're not sure exactly what created the cloud, but it was probably that. Oh and fun, one of those infestation black clouds just surrounded you and you cant see.

 

ZAP! Oh. Good, Disrupted again for good measure.

 

Fin.

 

 

There's a pretty big difference between engaging, challenging and just plain unfair.

 

AoE armor ignore poison clouds, Acid rain launchers, area-denial slowing spots, enemies that spawn little mobs that grab/slow you, clouds of screen blocking mist, etc aren't things that we can really do anything about when we're fighting the infested in many situations.

 

I know those enemies were at prototype stage, so this feedback is preemptive and not meant to be an attack on anyone. Commenting before resources are put in, and before something is finalized is a good time to highlight potential issues.

 

In a game where nearly nothing is telegraphed - adding numerous "pain and suffering" attacks to the "hoarde" faction doesn't seem like it's going to make gameplay more "fun". Harder? Definitely. Unfair? Quite likely.

 

Yes, the player in our story could have just popped an ult every time he saw a new enemy. And used Iron Skin. And definitely sat way up on a crate. In fact, that would pretty much be his only "smart" decision...because being constantly surrounded by air dropping shield ignoring AoE death and slowness is...well...does it sound fun to you?

 

Let's hope the above is not what happens with the new enemies.

 

Interesting, yes. Cool looking, probably. Great, in some context/pacing? Sure. But in a typical infested hoarde....will they add skill based engagement to WF? Not in the prototype iteration. In that state, they'll just add more ways to die without knowing why.

Edited June 10, 2014 by notionphil

[DSpite]

Storytime: "You versus the new enemies; a worst case scenario"

 

You just ventilated a Toxic Ancient, and you see two Disruptors approaching behind the crowd of chargers gnashing at your heels. You remember that there were numerous leapers closing in behind you. That Saryn with the Boltor Prime may have taken them out, but you're not sure - it's OK they weren't a pressing threat. A quick melee deals with the chargers, and just as the Disruptors enter engagement range, you melee slide into...oh. crap.

 

Literally. You're now sitting in an AoE poison cloud, fired by an enemy you didn't see, because he's behind the mass of infested you're facing.

 

You try and roll out through the crowd of chargers and end up in an "infested slow spot" on the ground, which you also didn't see because it was covered in infested. So now you're moving at half speed.

 

Where were those Disruptors in relatio....Ah..yes. you just got disrupted.

 

One of those "bursters" is near enough to explode, which covers you in more movement slowing crawlys.

 

You finally slide out of that cloud and...crap. Again. An infested drone "dropped" off a few cralwers, along with another AoE poison cloud at your location. You're still surrounded by chargers and leapers, so you're not sure exactly what created the cloud, but it was probably that. Oh and fun, one of those infestation black clouds just surrounded you and you cant see.

 

ZAP! Oh. Good, Disrupted again for good measure.

 

Fin.

 

 

There's a pretty big difference between engaging, challenging and just plain unfair.

 

AoE armor ignore poison clouds, Acid rain launchers, area-denial slowing spots, enemies that spawn little mobs that grab/slow you, clouds of screen blocking mist, etc aren't things that we can really do anything about when we're fighting the infested in many situations.

 

I know those enemies were at prototype stage, so this feedback is preemptive and not meant to be an attack on anyone. Commenting before resources are put in, and before something is finalized is a good time to highlight potential issues.

 

In a game where nearly nothing is telegraphed - adding numerous "pain and suffering" attacks to the "hoarde" faction doesn't seem like it's going to make gameplay more "fun". Harder? Definitely. Unfair? Quite likely.

 

Yes, the player in our story could have just popped an ult every time he saw a new enemy. And used Iron Skin. And definitely sat way up on a crate. In fact, that would pretty much be his only "smart" decision...because being constantly surrounded by air dropping shield ignoring AoE death and slowness is...well...does it sound fun to you?

 

Let's hope the above is not what happens with the new enemies.

 

Interesting, yes. Cool looking, probably. Great, in some context/pacing? Sure. But in a typical infested hoarde....will they add skill based engagement to WF? Not in the prototype iteration. In that state, they'll just add more ways to die without knowing why.

 

I'm sorry for sounding cynical, but your description above make it sound like most of us, in combat, actually see all of that and actually plan some sort of tactical scenario in our head. It actually works like this:

 

Player looks into open area.

Player sees a mass of color coming towards him.

Player opens up on full auto, and if something still gets to melee range, decides on which power button 1 to 4 would help fix the situation.

 

I might do what you described in say, a Vegas 2 Terrorist Hunt, or a Payday 2 mission, but Warframe? The game of multicolored ability snowstorms?

 

http://i.imgur.com/AD5dWSi.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/6PVOMoa.jpg

 

I cant PLAN in that crap storm of color, i jut REACT and shoot what is still moving about.

 

Yo do what you described we need more actual scripted missions, and less Dynamic-Track-Ninja-Trackmania. Not that I mind it, I'm just saying.

[Recel]

I'm sorry for sounding cynical, but your description above make it sound like most of us, in combat, actually see all of that and actually plan some sort of tactical scenario in our head. It actually works like this:

 

Player looks into open area.

Player sees a mass of color coming towards him.

Player opens up on full auto, and if something still gets to melee range, decides on which power button 1 to 4 would help fix the situation.

 

I might do what you described in say, a Vegas 2 Terrorist Hunt, or a Payday 2 mission, but Warframe? The game of multicolored ability snowstorms?

 

http://i.imgur.com/AD5dWSi.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/6PVOMoa.jpg

 

I cant PLAN in that crap storm of color, i jut REACT and shoot what is still moving about.

 

Yo do what you described we need more actual scripted missions, and less Dynamic-Track-Ninja-Trackmania. Not that I mind it, I'm just saying.

 

You actually brought up another problem why telegraphing is bad in Warframe.

 

There are soo many different effects floating around the game that you couldn't see enemies charging up a special attack. Hell, when enemies despawn in a big white partical puff, while three other frames throw flashy powers left and right while numbers are flying up all over the screen, I don't even see what I'm shooting at often, let alone see what that thing is doing!

 

But notionphil still has a point. Whit so many enemies running left and right, coming from so many directions, it is hard to prioritise what you are shooting at. So that one Jugernaut poping around a corner and spraying you with shield passing green goop of death without you noticing will happen.

There are often just too many directions enemies can come from for even a team of four to keep an eye on. Enemies still get into melee range, they can still shoot you, because you were all too occupied to shoot at waves coming from other directions, only to not notice a few comeing from another.

It happens regulary even now. It's just not so anoying because most infested enemies don't do much harm AND are all melee, so you see them when they are next to you. But once they get tons of toxic stuff that target your health directly AND can deliver that from range, you will notice these few wranglers.

 

Even if they would telegraph their special attacks it would be still hard to notice simply because of the sheer number of the enemies and/or all the different directions they can spawn from/aproach from.

[Renegade343]

Storytime: "You versus the new enemies; a worst case scenario"

 

You just ventilated a Toxic Ancient, and you see two Disruptors approaching behind the crowd of chargers gnashing at your heels. You remember that there were numerous leapers closing in behind you. That Saryn with the Boltor Prime may have taken them out, but you're not sure - it's OK they weren't a pressing threat. A quick melee deals with the chargers, and just as the Disruptors enter engagement range, you melee slide into...oh. crap.

 

Literally. You're now sitting in an AoE poison cloud, fired by an enemy you didn't see, because he's behind the mass of infested you're facing.

 

You try and roll out through the crowd of chargers and end up in an "infested slow spot" on the ground, which you also didn't see because it was covered in infested. So now you're moving at half speed.

 

Where were those Disruptors in relatio....Ah..yes. you just got disrupted.

 

One of those "bursters" is near enough to explode, which covers you in more movement slowing crawlys.

 

You finally slide out of that cloud and...crap. Again. An infested drone "dropped" off a few cralwers, along with another AoE poison cloud at your location. You're still surrounded by chargers and leapers, so you're not sure exactly what created the cloud, but it was probably that. Oh and fun, one of those infestation black clouds just surrounded you and you cant see.

 

ZAP! Oh. Good, Disrupted again for good measure.

 

Fin.

 

 

There's a pretty big difference between engaging, challenging and just plain unfair.

 

AoE armor ignore poison clouds, Acid rain launchers, area-denial slowing spots, enemies that spawn little mobs that grab/slow you, clouds of screen blocking mist, etc aren't things that we can really do anything about when we're fighting the infested in many situations.

 

I know those enemies were at prototype stage, so this feedback is preemptive and not meant to be an attack on anyone. Commenting before resources are put in, and before something is finalized is a good time to highlight potential issues.

 

In a game where nearly nothing is telegraphed - adding numerous "pain and suffering" attacks to the "hoarde" faction doesn't seem like it's going to make gameplay more "fun". Harder? Definitely. Unfair? Quite likely.

 

Yes, the player in our story could have just popped an ult every time he saw a new enemy. And used Iron Skin. And definitely sat way up on a crate. In fact, that would pretty much be his only "smart" decision...because being constantly surrounded by air dropping shield ignoring AoE death and slowness is...well...does it sound fun to you?

 

Let's hope the above is not what happens with the new enemies.

 

Interesting, yes. Cool looking, probably. Great, in some context/pacing? Sure. But in a typical infested hoarde....will they add skill based engagement to WF? Not in the prototype iteration. In that state, they'll just add more ways to die without knowing why.

I have something about Toxin damage: 

 

You know we have armour/shield/something that will prevent toxins from directly going into our bodies (same thing with Grineer/Corpus)?

 

What we could do is have only 10% of Toxin damage pass through shields/armour (after all, our Warframes probably have ventilation systems/toxic-protective armour to prevent the toxins from affecting our bodies [the Warframe shell protects the fleshy body (or whatever is inside a Warframe) within]). As for Grineer, have all Grineer wear masks when fighting in Infested missions, and for Corpus, have all of them wear biological suits when fighting in Infested missions (just a cosmetic change, but we can make them take +15% Toxin weakness). This will make them resistant to Toxic damage. 

 

As for Toxic bullets/darts, only 5% of Toxic damage will bypass shields/armour (this applies to Grineer, Corpus, and players), as the toxins will most likely be coated onto the bullets, meaning armour and shields will block/stop the bullets, leaving almost all of the toxins coated in the bullet not being able to enter the body, but a few fragments may enter the body and inflict Toxic damage. 

[notionphil]

I'm sorry for sounding cynical, but your description above make it sound like most of us, in combat, actually see all of that and actually plan some sort of tactical scenario in our head. It actually works like this:

 

Player looks into open area.

Player sees a mass of color coming towards him.

Player opens up on full auto, and if something still gets to melee range, decides on which power button 1 to 4 would help fix the situation.

 

I might do what you described in say, a Vegas 2 Terrorist Hunt, or a Payday 2 mission, but Warframe? The game of multicolored ability snowstorms?

 

http://i.imgur.com/AD5dWSi.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/6PVOMoa.jpg

 

I cant PLAN in that crap storm of color, i jut REACT and shoot what is still moving about.

 

Yo do what you described we need more actual scripted missions, and less Dynamic-Track-Ninja-Trackmania. Not that I mind it, I'm just saying.

Either you misunderstood my post or it was unclear. That's my exact point. All we have time to do is 'twitch' - dodge or shoot in a direction, hopefully with a tiny amnt of aiming.

Thus adding layer upon layer of AoE slows stuns etc on top of that twitching is likely to result in very unhappy Tenno.

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

Storytime: "You versus the new enemies; a worst case scenario"

 

You just ventilated a Toxic Ancient, and you see two Disruptors approaching behind the crowd of chargers gnashing at your heels. You remember that there were numerous leapers closing in behind you. That Saryn with the Boltor Prime may have taken them out, but you're not sure - it's OK they weren't a pressing threat. A quick melee deals with the chargers, and just as the Disruptors enter engagement range, you melee slide into...oh. crap.

 

Literally. You're now sitting in an AoE poison cloud, fired by an enemy you didn't see, because he's behind the mass of infested you're facing.

 

You try and roll out through the crowd of chargers and end up in an "infested slow spot" on the ground, which you also didn't see because it was covered in infested. So now you're moving at half speed.

 

Where were those Disruptors in relatio....Ah..yes. you just got disrupted.

 

One of those "bursters" is near enough to explode, which covers you in more movement slowing crawlys.

 

You finally slide out of that cloud and...crap. Again. An infested drone "dropped" off a few cralwers, along with another AoE poison cloud at your location. You're still surrounded by chargers and leapers, so you're not sure exactly what created the cloud, but it was probably that. Oh and fun, one of those infestation black clouds just surrounded you and you cant see.

 

ZAP! Oh. Good, Disrupted again for good measure.

 

Fin.

 

 

There's a pretty big difference between engaging, challenging and just plain unfair.

 

AoE armor ignore poison clouds, Acid rain launchers, area-denial slowing spots, enemies that spawn little mobs that grab/slow you, clouds of screen blocking mist, etc aren't things that we can really do anything about when we're fighting the infested in many situations.

 

 

 

While that is worst case, more likely will be that we shoot them to pieces and we all spam 4 and everything explodes and disintegrates, leading us right back to square 1 again, that the new enemies are going to be just as easy to eliminate as their previous enemy, but doing so without spamming 4 or using weapons like the Penta, Ogris, Soma, Boltor P. Latron. P Glaive P etc. just makes the game mind numbingly frustrating. The very antithesis of Dark Souls. 

 

This is my greatest issue with the design direction that was talked about in the Dev stream, " we want to make players feel Godlike" and "enemies should be cannon fodder"

 

But we don't feel Godlike if there is no challenge to the game, it becomes boring and adding new enemies, as you mentioned, which use "gimmicks" to improve difficulty will still be ripped apart in seconds by any Vet. or player with a half decent arsenal. So it does very little for us. But to players who don't have enough firepower to wipe out a company, the game becomes even more unbearable with the divide between those entering the game/ newer players and those with established, mods, weapons and frames being even more apparent. 

 

While intelligent AI is only going to be of limited use, the issue is that they're not shifting the enemy behaviour to compensate for the huge gap in power between players and enemies (they're not balancing things either, but that's another kettle of fish entirely)

 

For instance, if alarms go off enemies still wander around aimlessly, they don't form up at an intersection with a deployable energy shields for the Corpus, which they can shoot through, but you can't. Grineer won't spawn in locked rooms in an organised fashion with Shield lancers to the front to make a wall, shields which you can't just shoot through. Crawlers don't scuttle up the walls to outflank you. There's no leaders working with each unit, which can dampen or limit the effect of frame powers (these should spawn in higher planets) to stop us disintegrating everything in the room. 

 

In essence they don't act like a cohesive unit, or the infested like the xenomorphs, they all run around like headless chickens and predictably get shot to pieces. 

 

Things like this hurt the game, it's not complex AI behavior, it's simple organisation based on cues when things like alarms are set off. Mixed with buffs to enemies, which are more a "side grade" than a straight HP/ Damage buff. Watching the Dev stream gave me the distinct and uneasy impression that they're just pushing in more stunlock and ignoring shield gimmicks. Which doesn't improve the challenge in a good way. 

Edited June 11, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid

[matrixEXO]

-snip-

While I would agree that we need better enemies, I disagree with dumber AI. At least in the case with Grineer and Corpus. Grineer are a militaristic faction and their actions should reflect such. I don't want to see 30 lancers just standing in the open shooting their guns at me because while it does invoke that "Oh S#&$!" moment when you see the 30 lancers, you also feel a bit disconnected given that there isn't a speck of militaristic action. It's like telling your US marines to all go stand in the open and fire at the enemy when you know it doesn't make sense.

As for the Corpus, I believe that the non-humanoids should all have reworked combat systems. Robots are obviously computer-controlled autonomous machines. Therefore, they should always act like such and relentlessly hunt us down, though there should be some degree of "hive mind mentality". If an Osprey Drone appears, the MOAs shouldn't just ignore the Osprey and start chasing the Tenno who's 20m away but should start grouping near the Osprey. It's supposed to give you the immersion of feeling that it's really something computer-controlled and not just some "go and suicide" command imprinted into it.

I won't disagree with your post. It does increase the fun-factor and dangers that come. However, it does also reduce immersion as Grineer would stop being a militaristic-based faction and Corpus would stop being a robotics-based faction due to their behavior and action.

As for your suggestions for abilities, it's not dumb but just gonna detriment the game a lot. For example, if there are 3 healers, 5 ancients and 20 chargers and you killed a healer. If you want to make sure he dies, you are gonna have to stand there for 1~2 seconds while the rest of the enemies chomp at your sexy standing body. Not really a good idea now, right? There IS definitely a way at which the enemies can gain special abilities while not being overpowered or unfair but most of your suggestions definitely seem unfair... at least to a solo player like me and/or once they reach level 100 above on ED (at which you are just struggling for no reason and just a millisecond of concentration loss will cause you the mission).

If you are talking about Grineer Shields, they are actually quite bad. I realised this since OB because they tend to ignore allies BEHIND themselves and expose their smug-@$$ to get killed and potentially their ally behind them as well. Not a good idea if you are the one wielding the near-invulnerable shield of steel. Otherwise, they serve a really good purpose of changing the game flow.

Edited June 11, 2014 by matrixEXO

[notionphil]

While I would agree that we need better enemies, I disagree with dumber AI. At least in the case with Grineer and Corpus. Grineer are a militaristic faction and their actions should reflect such. I don't want to see 30 lancers just standing in the open shooting their guns at me because while it does invoke that "Oh S#&$!" moment when you see the 30 lancers, you also feel a bit disconnected given that there isn't a speck of militaristic action. It's like telling your US marines to all go stand in the open and fire at the enemy when you know it doesn't make sense.

As for the Corpus, I believe that the non-humanoids should all have reworked combat systems. Robots are obviously computer-controlled autonomous machines. Therefore, they should always act like such and relentlessly hunt us down, though there should be some degree of "hive mind mentality". If an Osprey Drone appears, the MOAs shouldn't just ignore the Osprey and start chasing the Tenno who's 20m away but should start grouping near the Osprey. It's supposed to give you the immersion of feeling that it's really something computer-controlled and not just some "go and suicide" command imprinted into it.

I won't disagree with your post. It does increase the fun-factor and dangers that come. However, it does also reduce immersion as Grineer would stop being a militaristic-based faction and Corpus would stop being a robotics-based faction due to their behavior and action.

As for your suggestions for abilities, it's not dumb but just gonna detriment the game a lot. For example, if there are 3 healers, 5 ancients and 20 chargers and you killed a healer. If you want to make sure he dies, you are gonna have to stand there for 1~2 seconds while the rest of the enemies chomp at your sexy standing body. Not really a good idea now, right? There IS definitely a way at which the enemies can gain special abilities while not being overpowered or unfair but most of your suggestions definitely seem unfair... at least to a solo player like me and/or once they reach level 100 above on ED (at which you are just struggling for no reason and just a millisecond of concentration loss will cause you the mission).

If you are talking about Grineer Shields, they are actually quite bad. I realised this since OB because they tend to ignore allies BEHIND themselves and expose their smug-@$$ to get killed and potentially their ally behind them as well. Not a good idea if you are the one wielding the near-invulnerable shield of steel. Otherwise, they serve a really good purpose of changing the game flow.

 

I actually like the idea of enemies spawning in pre-set formations, but without some sort of power resistance, all that means is the loot will be in a tidy pile after your ult.

 

Spawn rates on any 'mechanics' mobs should of course take level/solo into consideration. However, your example itself brings up a point. Why are you fighting level 100 enemies (solo?)? Because you want a challenge.

 

With simple enemy mechanics added to a few enemies per faction, you wouldn't have to spend 30 minutes in Survival to find a chance at a challenge. You'd find it right at wave 1 on the highest level planets.

[matrixEXO]

I actually like the idea of enemies spawning in pre-set formations, but without some sort of power resistance, all that means is the loot will be in a tidy pile after your ult.

 

Spawn rates on any 'mechanics' mobs should of course take level/solo into consideration. However, your example itself brings up a point. Why are you fighting level 100 enemies (solo?)? Because you want a challenge.

 

With simple enemy mechanics added to a few enemies per faction, you wouldn't have to spend 30 minutes in Survival to find a chance at a challenge. You'd find it right at wave 1 on the highest level planets.

You would on wave 1 but that sorts of pushes the loot table into a worse dump ever. Remember that loot tables ARE locked into every wave sets so... That's exactly why we would be doing waves till level 100 enemies (if we all feel lucky). I, for one, normally stop at a certain wave where my solo play starts to slow down and I don't feel like I can handle the next set of waves.

 

The thing here is that I included loot table into the idea. Without it, I would definitely agree with you. Again, this game has too many problems interwoven that tugging on one brings out the rest.

 

 

To the main point, power resistance is not there because DE doesn't want powers that can be stopped by a singular unit, except Stalker. I agree that 4-bombing isn't the way to go but the only real way out of 4-bombing is to completely rework them itself. Some examples:

 

-Excalibur gains enhanced (2x/3x/4x) raw channeling potential for 12 seconds. Affects all mods related to channeling as well (1.5x). (Because he's originally a melee-frame)

-Ash clones himself while he teleports to his targeted opponent for a stealth kill. Clone and stealth lasts 3 seconds.

-Frost channels the icy powers to imbue his gun with 100% chill effect for 15s. Each shot chills the target and upon a certain chill stacks, the target is frozen. Chill stack values are based on the weapon's base (unmodded) damage potential.

 

 

Truthfully, these are the only way I can see 4-bombing to stop being a thing. If DE starts moving away from the uber I-clear-everything-with-oomph power to a more tactical but still fitting ultimate, I think we can see a real improvement.

Edited June 11, 2014 by matrixEXO

[DiabolusUrsus]

You actually brought up another problem why telegraphing is bad in Warframe.

 

There are soo many different effects floating around the game that you couldn't see enemies charging up a special attack. Hell, when enemies despawn in a big white partical puff, while three other frames throw flashy powers left and right while numbers are flying up all over the screen, I don't even see what I'm shooting at often, let alone see what that thing is doing!

 

*snip*

 

Even if they would telegraph their special attacks it would be still hard to notice simply because of the sheer number of the enemies and/or all the different directions they can spawn from/aproach from.

 

I think you're misunderstanding what is meant by telegraphing here. I think that the whole idea is that enemies strolling in with long-range massive AOE poison artillery should be introduced the same way Prosecutors currently are with a Lotus notification, and should be visually distinct from the faceless masses of cannon fodder rushing towards you. You already mentioned that you can't really see what you're shooting at most of the time. This would imply to me that those enemies don't require a great deal of attention on your part. That's fine, but that also means you should have attention to spare for the hulking monstrosity that can instantly bypass your shields. 

There are is also a wide array of telegraphs that don't rely on visual effects to work. The Oxium Osprey's screech is a good example of this, and the fact that rolling to the side as they charge generally prevents them from detonating makes them one of my favorite enemies to fight. If I miss the roll or my timing is off, they explode and I lose a chance at loot. If I get it right, I can effectively keep it alive long enough to kill, even with lower-ranked gear. That's really well done. 

 

Anything similar to a visual threat display in terms of animation should also work nicely. There are ways to catch people's attention, even in the midst of the veritable tempest of powers that riddle most multiplayer sessions. You're right that a simple glowy charging sequence probably won't cut it, but it can and should be done correctly. 

[Innocent_Flower]

Something I thought of earlier In a previous thread of mine:

 

Charge osprey. 

 

 

Imagine a shield osprey, who's Red. Bright red. The shield energy thing he emits is also red. However, Instead of charging shields, it powers up weapons, giving allies varying degrees of multishot. 

 

 

 

Simple S#&$ like that'd be great. 

 

 

Phil, Why don't we have jobs in the game industry? 

Edited June 11, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[azmyth1]

Many of the enemies in Warframe could be really good with some minor tweaking.

 

Shield lancers - Used to be good before hit detection started more or less ignoring the shield.  Make them always shoot in the "Over the shield animation" and get rid of the "Shield to the side" attack.

 

Scorpions - Increase the time they spend winding up for a rope throw, or decrease the speed of the projective.  Also, their attack needs to be sped up, and increased in damage.

 

Powerfists/Flameblades: Add up a teleportation sound and flash.  Speed up and buff the damage they do on their first attack.  Maybe even give them the x4 stealth bonus if the player does not block.

 

Seekers - The Latchers need to have x2 damage minimum.  The Lotus could send a message to the player warning them to roll it off until the player successfully does roll a latcher off.

 

Ballista - Increase damage x3, cloak while not firing (someone else suggested this above), add laser sight to telegraph attack.

 

Hellions are good as they are.

 

Napalms and bombards should get a x3 damage weakpoint to counter their massive HP.  If they want to make this the head, fine.  I like the idea of being able to shoot the missle launcher/napalm launcher to deprive them of their weapon also.

 

Commanders - have the floor light up under the Tenno just prior to the teleport.  Allow player to jump off at the last second to avoid.  Many new players think the teleport is a bug, not a game mechanic!

 

Arc Trap - Have a 1 second delay between first LOS with the player and the lightning.  It's stupid to round a corner and instantly be under fire.  Add a "charging glow".

 

Corpus:

Prod crewmen - add a stagger effect to their attack.  If you can't dodge that slow attack, you deserve some CC.

 

Shockwave moas are good where they are.  They introduce a cc mechanic, but a dodgeable one with a telegraph.

 

Mine Osprey - Double damage, decrease mine timer, increase blast radius.  Allow players to shoot the mines and cause them to explode.

 

Shield Ospreys need to have their shield boost tripled, but when they die Corpus still attached to them could have their shields disappear completely (Overloaded by feedback).  This would incentivize shooting the shield drone first.

 

Oxium osprey's suicide dive needs to do more damage.  If an enemy is going to kill itself, the resulting damage should be noticable.

Edited June 12, 2014 by azmyth1